Seems to me a lot of Americans are only against the war because its not going well

callen

jlew24asu wrote:

whats stupid is making up statistics. 98% huh. why is cheney's comment shallow and misguided? would you like to see el queda claim victory in Iraq, maybe set up some training camps? blow themselves in the middle of a crowded market full of innocent iraqi civillians? wait, who is misguided again?

I pulled the 98% out of my arsch....but I'm thinking pretty accurate...+/- a few % points. As far as claiming victory....who cares what they think..we need to develop stategies based on results. But Cheney knows how to push our Patiotic American buttons, and continues to do so..and continues to make us look like fools...again supporting Brynzie's post.

jlew24asu

callen wrote:

I pulled the 98% out of my arsch....but I'm thinking pretty accurate...+/- a few % points. As far as claiming victory....who cares what they think..we need to develop stategies based on results. But Cheney knows how to push our Patiotic American buttons, and continues to do so..and continues to make us look like fools...again supporting Brynzie's post.

great job dodging all of my questions. why is cheney's comment (continuing the battle is "so el queda can't claim victory in Iraq..) shallow and misguided?

angelica

callen wrote:

I doubt...many people have the cabability to widen their perspectives.....let alone want to.

I see people do it all the time. They learn, progress and grow. All that's required is an environment that allows it. We're evolving beings.

Cosmo

Coming back to life wrote:

And I suppose our governments told us that Pinochet should never have been installed and needed to be held account for his actions, the dropping of the atomic bombs was wrong, along with the firestorms in Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo that targeted civilians. Oh hang on...

...
What does this have to do with the effect of gamma rays on Man in The Mon marigolds?

angelica

NCfan wrote:

Here is a post from Byrnzie

"No. Because your Government are immoral, greedy liars and murderers, and anyone who respects the criminal American Government is stupid."

That has to be one of the worst post I've ever read on this board. My perspective is wide open, yet I hold on to certain values. But these values do not limit me from steping out and examining other ideas. None-the-less, this post from Byrnzie is rediculous and I can't believe anybody would defend it.

The reason I defend that post, NCfan, is because I was very closely watching this thread as you and Byrnzie were posting on Friday. I specifically noticed Byrnzie's post in it's original form --before it was deleted and before Byrnzie was banned for the day, and before other people had time to really register what he said. In it's original form, it was a paragraph about 4 or so lines long. I thought the post was restrained, intelligent and insightful. And I specifically noticed it and remember it because I was impressed with what he said.

Here is what was originally said:

evenkat wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

So then why did the U.S support him when he carried out these atrocities, and sell him weapons of mass destruction?

Ummmm cuz we're stupid.

Then Byrnzie responded by saying something about how No, the American people are NOT stupid. And he explained for a few sentences before he ended by saying "anyone who respects the criminal American Government is stupid". Granted, I personally would not have generalized that those who respect the criminal American government are stupid. And yet, I can still clearly hear his point: respecting criminals and criminal action/behaviour IS stupid, by many people's standards. He was banned for a day. The post was deleted, but the post in question stood out in my memory because he was defending the general American people, while holding those who support criminal government actions as the ones accountable, as is the case.

So back to my point:

angelica wrote:

I agree there is major truth to what Byrnzie said in the post that got him banned, and in much of what he says in general. If only people would be willing to widen their perspective and be open to actually listen to and hear him.

His point went unheard on Friday. While you were saying this about him: "Whatever man, you're pathetic and deep down somewhere under all your layers of bullshit you know it", it sure didn't seem like you were hearing what he was saying.

Songburst

jlew24asu wrote:

great job dodging all of my questions. why is cheney's comment (continuing the battle is "so el queda can't claim victory in Iraq..) shallow and misguided?

How about because fucking Al Qaeda had absolutely no prescence in Iraq before the war? So America must continue the battle to ensure that an organization that America introduced into the country doesn't "claim victory". If that isn't shallow and misguided, then what is?

drivingrl

aoife wrote:

I know there are a lot of liberal intelligent people who were against it from the get go but nowadays it seems there are a lot of people against it. This might seem like a good thing but i really dont think it is because they just dont like that its costing so much money and lives, they still dont see that it was an initial mistake. They still havent learned that other country's affairs are none of their business and that the rest of the world doesnt want their "help"(a.k.a. bomb the shit out of other countries). I mean unless people learn that exporting values for example democracy doesnt work then we are all condemned to watch history repeat itself over and over again.

1. There are a lot of conservative intelligent people who knew better as well.

2. The only reason why it seems like people are against the war now is because the international media say they are and they have polls and statistics they've picked to prove the supposed change in popular opinion.

3. I'm not in denial about the fact that the current administration is abusing its power, but the United States is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. It's been that way for years and it will continue to be that way until China takes over as world power.

jlew24asu

Songburst wrote:

How about because fucking Al Qaeda had absolutely no prescence in Iraq before the war?

ok so what? cant change that now. still not sure how that makes cheney misguided. he seems to know perfectly well who the enemy is.

Songburst wrote:

So America must continue the battle to ensure that an organization that America introduced into the country doesn't "claim victory".

America introduced into the country? interesting choice of words. but ok. its americas fault they are there. now what? we let them set up shop or kill them what would you prefer?

Heineken Helen

NCfan wrote:

Here is a post from Byrnzie

"No. Because your Government are immoral, greedy liars and murderers, and anyone who respects the criminal American Government is stupid."

That has to be one of the worst post I've ever read on this board. My perspective is wide open, yet I hold on to certain values. But these values do not limit me from steping out and examining other ideas. None-the-less, this post from Byrnzie is rediculous and I can't believe anybody would defend it.

This coming from the guy who reckons the US really DID everything they could to limit civilian casualties and who said soldiers are not murderers... some soldiers are, some soldiers aren't, therefore one cannot say 'soldiers are not murderers' just as much as you cannot say 'soldiers ARE murderers' :rolleyes:

redrock

Saturnal wrote:

I'd say that's pretty much right on. If people can't see this war is about oil, they're trying really hard not to.

The 'agreements' being put into place re oil speak for themselves....

ONCE DEVIDED

Im against it since day dot. not since you guys found out you were lied to.
booga booga , look out behind you, there coming to get you

Songburst

jlew24asu wrote:

ok so what? cant change that now. still not sure how that makes cheney misguided. he seems to know perfectly well who the enemy is.


America introduced into the country? interesting choice of words. but ok. its americas fault they are there. now what? we let them set up shop or kill them what would you prefer?

The problem is that you can't kill them. It's not like they run around wearing Al Qaeda uniforms. If you don't know that Al Qaeda is just being used as a boogeyman to scare people into supporting this war, then there really is something wrong with the way that you perceive reality. At what point in this process will America reliquishes control of Iraqi oil to Iraq?

Collin

Songburst wrote:

The problem is that you can't kill them. It's not like they run around wearing Al Qaeda uniforms.

If they see US soldiers, they just stay low. Wait till they are gone. They can wait much longer than the US has staying power.

Byrnzie

callen wrote:

but there was alot of truth to it. I like Brynzie's posts...very direct..and doesnt' pull punches...I don't agree with some of it...but wish more people would speak their mind like this....maybe some folks in the US would get their heads out.

Thanks.

jlew24asu

Songburst wrote:

The problem is that you can't kill them. It's not like they run around wearing Al Qaeda uniforms.

Iraqis know who are foreign fighters and who arent. its a tough battle, no doubt about that.

Songburst wrote:

If you don't know that Al Qaeda is just being used as a boogeyman to scare people into supporting this war, then there really is something wrong with the way that you perceive reality.

so do you believe el queda exists? hell, even I'll admit i'm not quite sure I know who the enemy is when it comes to shiite/sunni.

at this point I'm not sure what to support. el queda seems to be decimated in Iraq and shiite sunnis are more interested in killing each other then american soldiers. thats something the iraqis themselves need to figure out.

Songburst wrote:

At what point in this process will America reliquishes control of Iraqi oil to Iraq?

Iraq does have control of their oil. american companies are helping pump the stuff out of the ground but Iraq oil itself is controlled by OPEC. dont tell me its not, I do this for a living. I work for a trading firm that trades oil. sorry to disappoint you

jlew24asu

Collin wrote:

If they see US soldiers, they just stay low. Wait till they are gone. They can wait much longer than the US has staying power.

really? how do you know?

redrock

jlew24asu wrote:

I work for a trading firm that trades oil.

For all we know, you could be a cleaner there....

jlew24asu

redrock wrote:

For all we know, you could be a cleaner there....

they pay we well

Heineken Helen

jlew24asu wrote:

Iraq does have control of their oil. american companies are helping pump the stuff out of the ground but Iraq oil itself is controlled by OPEC. dont tell me its not, I do this for a living. I work for a trading firm that trades oil. sorry to disappoint you

Awww... how sweet of them

Collin

jlew24asu wrote:

really? how do you know?

You think they go up to the US soldiers? And not hide?