Seems to me a lot of Americans are only against the war because its not going well

NCfan

Byrnzie wrote:

I wouldn't call it a mistake. Our leaders knew, and continue to know, full well what they're doing.

Okay, let's call it "wrong" then. The premise still holds true.

gue_barium

NCfan wrote:

That's equal to Guns and Ammo awarding George Bush the best president of all time...

That's hilarious, and at least partly true.

angelica

NCfan wrote:

Whatever man, you're pathetic and deep down somewhere under all your layers of bullshit you know it.

Can I ask you what you are so upset about?

evenkat

Byrnzie wrote:

No. Because your Government are immoral, greedy liars and murderers, and anyone who respects the criminal American Government is stupid.

My first response to this was to ask you who or what do you think the American government is especially since we are going all the way back to the 80's and things change. Leadership changes, people die, corporations go out of business so what is the same? Actually when dealing with Iraq, most of the players are the same today as during the 1980's. Reagan is gone but there is Cheney, Rumsfeld who is now out of the picture and maybe there's not the same Bush but a Bush. Then there are the big bad oil companies. Who exactly controls the oil companies here? Do Americans only own them or do foreigners own some as well? There's OPEC so are they part of it?

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

American soldiers have already been convicted of murder, rape and torture and are serving their sentences as we speak....

If your anger is at American soldiers being labelled murderers then that's fair enough.
If you remember anything about the Vietnam era, or have studied the subject, then you'll know that the peace movement was made up largely of Vietnam veterans protesting the crimes of their Government. The label 'Baby killer' was something bandied around and presumed by the authorites to be directed at the soldiers on the ground. In actual fact it was aimed at those in power, sitting comfortably in leather chairs, in offices in the Pentagon and elsewhere. You may notice that many voices of the left today are calling for the troops to be brought home. Wars of occupation have often had a tendency to brutalise those on the ground doing the occupying. They have also, almost always failed.
'Bring the troops home!' isn't an attack on the troops. It's an attack against a pointless, brutal war, which is serving nobody's interest except the pigs at Halliburton, Exxon Mobil, and those in the Bush Administration e.t.c getting fatter from it.

Byrnzie

NCfan wrote:

That's equal to Guns and Ammo awarding George Bush the best president of all time...

Really?

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/static.php?screen=aboutus

'Britain's intelligent conversation

Prospect was launched in October 1995 by its present editor David Goodhart, a senior correspondent for the Financial Times, and chairman Derek Coombs. The aim was to launch a monthly that was "more readable than the Economist, more relevant than the Spectator, more romantic than the New Statesman," as Sir Jeremy Isaacs subsequently described Prospect.

Prospect has acquired a reputation as the most intelligent magazine of current affairs and cultural debate in Britain. Both challenging and entertaining, the magazine seeks to make complex ideas accessible and enjoyable by commissioning the best writers, editing them vigorously and packaging their work in a well designed and illustrated monthly.

It follows that Prospect has attracted a mature, educated, affluent and discerning readership, many of whom have reached the top of their profession. Specific details can be viewed on the advertise pages.

Prospect is growing rapidly. Our latest audit confirmed our circulation at 24,740 (ABC Jan-Dec 2005).'

Byrnzie

evenkat wrote:

My first response to this was to ask you who or what do you think the American government is especially since we are going all the way back to the 80's and things change. Leadership changes, people die, corporations go out of business so what is the same? Actually when dealing with Iraq, most of the players are the same today as during the 1980's. Reagan is gone but there is Cheney, Rumsfeld who is now out of the picture and maybe there's not the same Bush but a Bush. Then there are the big bad oil companies. Who exactly controls the oil companies here? Do Americans only own them or do foreigners own some as well? There's OPEC so are they part of it?

You've pretty much answered your question for me. So, yeah, 'The Government' consists of all the familiar faces we know and love. Ultimately though, these fucks are powerless to the point that they rely almost solely on the big business community for support and guidance. It's all become quite conveniently obvious over the past few years where, why, and how the strings of power in America are pulled. I merely need to reel of a few names. Just join the dots: Halliburton, Enron, Dick Cheney, Saudi Arabia, Texas Oil, e.t.c, e.t.c ad - not so - infinitum.

Collin

NCfan wrote:

Chomsky... now there is an intelctual giant. He never was nor ever will be accepted as the academic he thinks he is.

This shows how much you actually know about Chomsky, very little.

angelica

I'm noticing, NCfan, that you're doing your share of attacking the messenger and not the message in this thread. Is that because you don't have reasoned critique or support backing your arguments?

aoife

NCfan wrote:

You brand American soldiers "murderers"? You're a fucking ignorant dickhead! Our soldiers removed one of the worst dictators of the 20th century - a psychopath that murdered and tortured hundreds of thousands ONLY to keep himself in power. He stole from everybody he could to build dozens of lavish palaces. His sons Uday and Qusay were thugs of the first order who were known to have their own "rape rooms" where they had their way with countless innocent women. The atrocities are almost endless...

American soldiers fought and died to topple this most corrupt regime and brought justice to a man who is responsible for countless atrocites and basically subjigating a people for decades. We did this in order to make the world a safer place, PERIOD! If we were there to steal oil, we would have fucking done so, but we have not. If we were there to steal oil, we could have just battled our way to the infastructure, secured it, gaurd it and pump it all back to America. Have we done this? Fuck NO!!!!

Our soldiers put their life on the line everyday trying to help the people of Iraq. We don't go around trying to kill the innocents, which is EXACTLY what the death squads and sectarian fighters and Saddam did!!!!!!!!!!!! I NEVER heard international outcry about that... only when America gets involved...

All of the Iraqis you speak about who were killed, were not all killed at the hands of Americans. The vast majority have been killed by a combination of Islamic extremists from foreign countries, Sunni and Shia death squads and regular murderous criminals.

Fuck you and your attitude towards America!

Ignorant people like you are what is wrong with the world and its people like you who also give perfectly rational intelligent americans a bad name.
You got rid of Sadam Hussen who was an evil man, but its not your place to invade another country and tell them who should be in charge, it wasnt your place to get rid of him, who do you think you are! Also your soldiers bombed cities where civilians live and killed many of them so therefore they are murderers, murderers of innocent civilians, people who dont want you in their country. And what did ridding the world of sadam do it created a civil war in that country which continues to claim many innocent lives today. Your point about all american soldiers being noble and fighting for the good of the Iraqis is also complete bullshit, i recall one incident where a fourteen year old Iraqi girl was raped by four American soldiers before they murdered her and her entire family. On a larger scale i recall the illegal torturing of Iraqi soldiers which was given much media attention. I bet the Iraqis must be so grateful to you good civilised Americans for liberating them

aoife

cincybearcat wrote:

Because lord and allah knows you have to agree with your opinions to be 'intelligent'.

There are a lot of intelligent people for the war as well as against it.

Im not defining intelligent as academic or educated, im talking about people who dont succumb to propaganda and can see things for what they are, can recognise the hypocrisy. Anyone in favour of such a war is either stupid or evil

even flow?

John Budge wrote:

It's not a terrorist attack when you know it's going to happen.

So is that the look of love in their eyes as their whole world goes boom? I think the look of terror may be more appropriate! Funny that a few intel agencies warned about 911 but your government was too fucking stupid to believe or move on it. So where is the terror in that?

I think that the people are more worried about their little boys and girls who may one day get called up to go and fight for the noble cause weighs more on their teeny heads then the fact they may well be losing another war.

aoife

Kann wrote:

Secondly, I agree calling american soldiers murderers is completetly uncalled for..

how so? what would you call someone who takes human life? you can use any euphamism you want ,its murder.Thats not even an opinion its a fact , how can you possibly argue with it. I dont care if they were following orders they are still people with a conscience and should Know better

Coming back to life

aoife wrote:

how so? what would you call someone who takes human life? you can use any euphamism you want ,its murder.Thats not even an opinion its a fact , how can you possibly argue with it. I dont care if they were following orders they are still people with a conscience and should Know better

And these rapes etc that you talk of were government sanctioned were they?

aoife

Coming back to life wrote:

And these rapes etc that you talk of were government sanctioned were they?

No thats the whole point ,they did illegal things, they came into someone elses country where they were not wanted and terrorised the people. If they had never been sent then they never would have had the chance to commit these crimes. This is one of my main points, the troops shouldnt be pitied because regardless of whether they were sent there or not they still committed the evil acts themselves you cant blame it all on the government

Matt8townsend

aoife wrote:

how so? what would you call someone who takes human life? you can use any euphamism you want ,its murder.Thats not even an opinion its a fact , how can you possibly argue with it. I dont care if they were following orders they are still people with a conscience and should Know better

That's a fcking lame argument. By that rationale anyone who fought for the Allies during WW2 should be condemned as murderers then? Should they have known better? Do they deserve to be villified from the comfort of your living room, office or wherever it is you're being so callously judgemental from?

Just to clarify I was utterly against the invasion of Iraq and never wavered from that opinion throughout the whole sorry saga. But to vent all of your vitriol at the marines involved is just pathetic. It is the vile Republican administration (and Blair's cronies) who are to blame. The marines on the ground are victims of this war just as the Iraqi dead and wounded are. The majority of them victims of a government who deny education and job opportunites to the poor, and fill their heads with a nationalistic fervour that preconditions them to sign up for the armed forces out of a misguided sense of patriotism and the material reality that short of 12 hour shifts in a packing factory it is one of the only career options available to them.

The majority of America's armed forces are conditioned from birth to be pawns for the military and the neo-cons pursuit of global hegemony. In red states up and down the Bible belt the education system insidiously fills people's heads with the oath of alliegance, ubiquitous nationalistic iconography and mind numbing Christian fundamentalism.

People laugh at Bush like he's an idiot but in some sense he, his administration and the whole of the religious right are absolute genius's - they have the country sewn up in an endless cycle. Orwell wrtoe that the only two things required for the retention of power are poverty and ignorance. Throughout the majority of the red states they have got this down to a fine art. Even to the extent that as Eddie said on Storytellers when it comes to election time the people who vote for the Republican administration are the very same people who will be most harmed by it.

farfromglorified

Matt8townsend wrote:

But to vent all of your vitriol at the marines involved is just pathetic. It is the vile Republican administration (and Blair's cronies) who are to blame. The marines on the ground are victims of this war just as the Iraqi dead and wounded are. The majority of them victims of a government who deny education and job opportunites to the poor, and fill their heads with a nationalistic fervour that preconditions them to sign up for the armed forces out of a misguided sense of patriotism and the material reality that short of 12 hour shifts in a packing factory it is one of the only career options available to them.

The majority of America's armed forces are conditioned from birth to be pawns for the military and the neo-cons pursuit of global hegemony. In red states up and down the Bible belt the education system insidiously fills people's heads with the oath of alliegance, ubiquitous nationalistic iconography and mind numbing Christian fundamentalism.

Hehe....be careful with this logic.

If those who pull the triggers are victims of their masters, the masters are just victims of their masters. You're creating an endless cycle wherein no one is responsible for their choices.

I will agree that those who villify anyone who participates in a war as a murderer oversimplifies a complex issue. But to pretend that people are not responsible for their choices precludes the villification of anyone.

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

Hehe....be careful with this logic.

If those who pull the triggers are victims of their masters, the masters are just victims of their masters. You're creating an endless cycle wherein no one is responsible for their choices.

I agree with you here. Everyone chooses for themselves and are accountable.

I will agree that those who villify anyone who participates in a war as a murderer oversimplifies a complex issue. But to pretend that people are not responsible for their choices precludes the villification of anyone.

Taking lives with premeditation is what it is. There are all kinds of justifications that just cannot effectively be made. Again, I agree, though, that any level of killing, from those who support killing from their armchairs to those who carry out the deeds themselves carries with it the precise and specific accountability for the exact output.

aoife

Matt8townsend wrote:

That's a fcking lame argument. By that rationale anyone who fought for the Allies during WW2 should be condemned as murderers then? Should they have known better? Do they deserve to be villified from the comfort of your living room, office or wherever it is you're being so callously judgemental from?

.

I didnt invent the english language , the truth is you feel uncomfortable viewing these people as murderers because it would mean that anyone is capable of murder, just because you dont like the word and its connotations doesnt stop it from being true. If you kill somebody you are a murderer. Comparing the invasion of Iraq to the fight against the Nazis is just completely laughable, are you indirectly saying that the invasion of Iraq was justified? Is it that you disagree that they murdered people or do you just not like that i said it because it forced you to think about it. It ultimately is the fault of Bush and Blair but the people who implemented their will by invading and bombing Iraq cannot be free from blame, they arent idiots they are real humans with consciences and should have enough integrity to say no .whatever the price may be it can be nothing compared with having to live with the fact that you are a murderer for the rest of your life. If there was no army there could be no war no matter how many leaders declared it

LikeAnOcean

In February of '03 I was a Bush supporter. In March of '03 I wasn't.. does that help explain my opinion of the situation? It has NOTHING to do with how bad the war is going.