Seems to me a lot of Americans are only against the war because its not going well

NCfan

aoife wrote:

Ya but its been completely fucked up for the civilians since it began and i think its an insult to them to only express concern now that its affecting ye, especially since ye went in their under the guise of liberating them. Also if you follow that logic then a successful war would be justified regardless of how many innocent Iraques died. Another thing that annoys me is this bands emphasis on the troops as if they were the most deserved of sympathy. These are people who most of them willingly went into a foreign country in which they had no business and killed innocent men, women and children and illegally tortured prisoners. Not all of them i know are evil or are guilty of the above , many of them may have been mislead or forced to go also but the sizable majority believed in what they were doing and they are murderers. Sympathy should be directed at the civilian popoulation who suffered under the american terrorism

Here is a word for you..."unnecessary". If you believe the American military is a bunch of murderers, then suit yourself. But I don't see how bringing that kind of opinion around here is going to positively influence any argument.

The morality or righteousness of the war in Iraq doesn’t have anything to do with our soldiers. They are basically pawns, and have no say in policy. They only carry out orders. Yes, each soldier should be held accountable for their individual actions and the military ensures this. That is why soldiers have a code of conduct, rules of engagement, etc. That is why there are stiff penalties, including capital punishment for soldiers who disobey these rules. These rules explicitly state that soldiers are not to harm non-combatants.

Herein lies the hypocrisy and exposes your bias view. Sunni or Shia death squads among other factions EXCPLICETLY TARGET innocent women and children, yet you only label the Americans, the force that tries its best to LIMIT civilian casualties as the murderers in Iraq.

Iraq is a hell whole full of ethnic and religious violence. Some experts have divided the chaos into as many as 5 different wars being fought. The United States should shoulder the blame for toppling the Saddam regime and not keeping order until a new government could be implemented. However, the US should not be blamed for the hatred in many Iraqi hearts towards their brethren. That is not our fight, and we did not have anything to do with these conflicts.

So Iraq is full of murderers as you would point out. It just shows how lop-sided your view is that you would castigate the American military as murderers, when we are the only force that is trying to stabilize the country into a society that respects all beliefs and tolerates differences. Left to their own devices, Iraq factions will continue to purge each other with revenge killings, political killings and ethnic cleansing until one force emerges and persecutes the subdued losers, creating yet another backwards society that will be a sore to the world.

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

So you think we would have paid as much attention to Iraq if their chief export had been Brussel sprouts?

I love brussel sprouts. I fully support any war and occupation in which it would bring down the price of this precious commodity. and O so heathly. mmmmmmmm

evenkat

Byrnzie wrote:

I was banned yesterday for one day for replying to this post. Interesting.

:eek:

angelica

NCfan wrote:

Herein lies the hypocrisy and exposes your bias view. Sunni or Shia death squads among other factions EXCPLICETLY TARGET innocent women and children, yet you only label the Americans, the force that tries its best to LIMIT civilian casualties as the murderers in Iraq.

She's only a hypocrite if she is contradicting herself and her own view. It sounds like you are asserting that one is a hypocrite if they are contradicting your view. Can you please point out where she is supporting the innocent killing of any people? And of course she's speaking from her own personal perspective--she's posting her opinions on a message board.

NCfan

angelica wrote:

She's only a hypocrite if she is contradicting herself and her own view. It sounds like you are asserting that one is a hypocrite if they are contradicting your view. Can you please point out where she is supporting the innocent killing of any people? And of course she's speaking from her own personal perspective--she's posting her opinions on a message board.

I do not believe she applies the same standards to American forces as the other factions fighting in Iraq and I think that is hypocritical. Also, if you read her posts closely, you will notice that innocence doesn't factor into the equation of a person who is killed. In her view, everyone is innocent.

Heineken Helen

NCfan wrote:

Herein lies the hypocrisy and exposes your bias view. Sunni or Shia death squads among other factions EXCPLICETLY TARGET innocent women and children, yet you only label the Americans, the force that tries its best to LIMIT civilian casualties as the murderers in Iraq.

Hang on... how is dropping 5000lb bombs on URBAN areas trying their 'best to limit civilian casualties'??? You speak about how America is so great for ridding Iraq of this evil dictator... like all they did was go into Iraq and take him out (which SURELY would have been much easier than all this bullshit) but that's not what happened. What about the hundreds and thousands of other people killed (soldier OR civilian) were they ALL guilty? I was sitting in a bar in New York when tv started showing footage of the first bombs being dropped on CITIES. People were standing and cheering and clapping as lives were being lost... like it was a fucking video game.

NCfan

Heineken Helen wrote:

Hang on... how is dropping 5000lb bombs on URBAN areas trying their 'best to limit civilian casualties'??? You speak about how America is so great for ridding Iraq of this evil dictator... like all they did was go into Iraq and take him out (which SURELY would have been much easier than all this bullshit) but that's not what happened. What about the hundreds and thousands of other people killed (soldier OR civilian) were they ALL guilty? I was sitting in a bar in New York when tv started showing footage of the first bombs being dropped on CITIES. People were standing and cheering and clapping as lives were being lost... like it was a fucking video game.

When we have the capability to level the entire city of Baghdad, we instead used precision laser-guided bombs to destroy specific buildings and targets. To me, that is trying our best.

angelica

NCfan wrote:

I do not believe she applies the same standards to American forces as the other factions fighting in Iraq and I think that is hypocritical. Also, if you read her posts closely, you will notice that innocence doesn't factor into the equation of a person who is killed. In her view, everyone is innocent.

I would hope she would not apply the same standards to the American forces as the other factions fighting in Iraq, as they are each operating with different variables. Thusly, in order to actually discern information optimally, each situation must be assessed and understood within it's own context. If you call assessing different situations on their own merits "hypocrisy", then you and I have a difference of opinion.

Do you recognize that if you kill people who appear to range from being "good" to "bad" that you are still killing different people? And that you are still a killer? And that you are still responsible for the killing you exact, independent of what the other person has done? Of course the other person is responsible exactly for their own horrors or inequities in a similar self-accountability.

There is a base issue in human psychology, wherein people like to justify and excuse what they do ie: killing, stealing, etc, while seeing the other person who does the same as bad guy--ie: they are WORSE killers or WORSE bad guys, therefore I'm a "better" killer. And really being a killer is being a killer. Ruthlessly killing many is still ruthlessly killing many. The psychologically healthy way is to recognize that EACH person has accountability. Therefore, I'm on the bandwagon with those on this board who point to those who are closing their eyes to their own accountability, while pointing the finger at some mythical "bad-guy" in the "bad" foreign-country-of-the-day. When you can understand this perspective, you will understand there is not inherent contradiction in this view. It is only viewing this view through your own lens, where you cannot appreciate this perspective, that the illusion of a flaw arises to you.

And yes, I realize that while you actually believe that people with other ideas and policies are just "bad", you will be unable to appreciate this concept. But at least the problem is on the table--and the illusion of hypocrisy is called out into the light where it dissipates.

Byrnzie

evenkat wrote:

:eek:

That's right. My response was: 'No. Because your Government are immoral, greedy liars and murderers, and anyone who respects the criminal American Government is stupid.'

Was that worth a ban? Maybe a bit of a generalization, but a ban seemed a bit harsh to me.

NCfan

angelica wrote:

I would hope she would not apply the same standards to the American forces as the other factions fighting in Iraq, as they are each operating with different variables. Thusly, in order to actually discern information optimally, each situation must be assessed and understood within it's own context. If you call assessing different situations on their own merits "hypocrisy", then you and I have a difference of opinion.

Do you recognize that if you kill people who appear to range from being "good" to "bad" that you are still killing different people? And that you are still a killer? And that you are still responsible for the killing you exact, independent of what the other person has done? Of course the other person is responsible exactly for their own horrors or inequities in a similar self-accountability.

There is a base issue in human psychology, wherein people like to justify and excuse what they do ie: killing, stealing, etc, while seeing the other person who does the same as bad guy--ie: they are WORSE killers or WORSE bad guys, therefore I'm a "better" killer. And really being a killer is being a killer. Ruthlessly killing many is still ruthlessly killing many. The psychologically healthy way is to recognize that EACH person has accountability. Therefore, I'm on the bandwagon with those on this board who point to those who are closing their eyes to their own accountability, while pointing the finger at some mythical "bad-guy" in the "bad" foreign-country-of-the-day. When you can understand this perspective, you will understand there is not inherent contradiction in this view. It is only viewing this view through your own lens, where you cannot appreciate this perspective, that the illusion of a flaw arises to you.

And yes, I realize that while you actually believe that people with other ideas and policies are just "bad", you will be unable to appreciate this concept. But at least the problem is on the table--and the illusion of hypocrisy is called out into the light where it dissipates.

You may need to break this down a little simpler for me, and I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm just not understanding the concept. Let me tell you a few things I believe.

I beleive that in the year 2007, killing other humans is necessary to keep the world order. I believe that killing is wrong, but it is necessary. So I think some killing though "wrong" is justified.

Heineken Helen

NCfan wrote:

When we have the capability to level the entire city of Baghdad, we instead used precision laser-guided bombs to destroy specific buildings and targets. To me, that is trying our best.

Absolutely not, trying your best would be sending in spies and snipers or only fighting on the ground or how about not starting a war at ALL? Did I mention 5000lb BOMBS??????? In CITIES??? Is that not slightly excessive? I'm sure they come in smaller sizes than that

Heineken Helen

NCfan wrote:

You may need to break this down a little simpler for me, and I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm just not understanding the concept. Let me tell you a few things I believe.

I beleive that in the year 2007, killing other humans is necessary to keep the world order. I believe that killing is wrong, but it is necessary. So I think some killing though "wrong" is justified.

:eek: are you serious? And what world order are you talking about? I thought the world's more unstable than ever... how is killing a few people gonna make it better... dialogue is the ONLY way to stamp out violence.

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

That's right. My response was: 'No. Because your Government are immoral, greedy liars and murderers, and anyone who respects the criminal American Government is stupid.'

Was that worth a ban? Maybe a bit of a generalization, but a ban seemed a bit harsh to me.

a bit of a generalization? ya think?

angelica

NCfan wrote:

You may need to break this down a little simpler for me, and I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm just not understanding the concept. Let me tell you a few things I believe.

I beleive that in the year 2007, killing other humans is necessary to keep the world order. I believe that killing is wrong, but it is necessary. So I think some killing though "wrong" is justified.

I appreciate your honesty and sincerity, NCfan.

I agree that at this point killing is "necessary", meaning it IS going to happen on a grandscale, because individuals do not understand. Again, it is a basic psychological principle that when we overpower someone, we put ourselves into a cycle that repeats and comes back to us. Therefore your strategies of overpowering and dominating make sense on one level--logically and strategically--, and yet at BASE they are fueling the fire, escalating the problems, precipitating backlashes for years to come. Backlashes which will be blamed on those who act them out. These problems are not 50/50 in accountability ratio. Your country is 100% responsible for your actions including the reverberations that will come back to you, and the "bad guys" are 100% responsible for their own and the reverberations that will return to them.

Until the average person figures this out, and new leaders and ACTUAL problem solving is demanded, YES, mass killing will result. The problem is everyone is accountable for their lack of problem solving. We are accountable for the killing we support in our ignorance. That's life at this time, I guess.

callen

jlew24asu wrote:

a bit of a generalization? ya think?

but there was alot of truth to it. I like Brynzie's posts...very direct..and doesnt' pull punches...I don't agree with some of it...but wish more people would speak their mind like this....maybe some folks in the US would get their heads out.

angelica

callen wrote:

but there was alot of truth to it. I like Brynzie's posts...very direct..and doesnt' pull punches...I don't agree with some of it...but wish more people would speak their mind like this....maybe some folks in the US would get their heads out.

I agree there is major truth to what Byrnzie said in the post that got him banned, and in much of what he says in general. If only people would be willing to widen their perspective and be open to actually listen to and hear him.

callen

angelica wrote:

I agree there is major truth to what Byrnzie said in the post that got him banned, and in much of what he says in general. If only people would be willing to widen their perspective and be open to actually listen to and hear him.

many people have the cabability to widen their perspectives.....let alone want to. We justify everything...we are scared so we go with someone we feel will protect us..if we don't want to pay more taxes we justify an unjust war.... (0:
I do love this board and its format...it does challenge me..and hopefully others. Great means for the population to communicate without government/corporate filters. Thanks Pearl Jam and those that make this possible.

NCfan

angelica wrote:

I agree there is major truth to what Byrnzie said in the post that got him banned, and in much of what he says in general. If only people would be willing to widen their perspective and be open to actually listen to and hear him.

Here is a post from Byrnzie

"No. Because your Government are immoral, greedy liars and murderers, and anyone who respects the criminal American Government is stupid."

That has to be one of the worst post I've ever read on this board. My perspective is wide open, yet I hold on to certain values. But these values do not limit me from steping out and examining other ideas. None-the-less, this post from Byrnzie is rediculous and I can't believe anybody would defend it.

callen

"No. Because your Government are immoral, greedy liars and murderers, and anyone who respects the criminal American Government is stupid."

Immoral- we're sending Billions to Iraq..yet people are starving in Africa oh and in the US. New Orleans is still a mess, so some could see our goverment as being immoral.

Greedy liars-many would argue, and I tend to agree, that the reason we're in Iraq is solely for the oil...Bush even admitted that in his last speach.

Murderers- there are many people in the world that feel they're loved ones where murdered by the American government. ( I still feel there's no malice, I may be using a coping mechanism for myself) but I didn't have my family wiped out by a misguided bomb.

People supporting are stupid- well I whole heartedly agree as does 98% if the worlds population...so this isn't a stretch. One of Cheney's talking points this weekend for continuing the battle is "so Alqaida(sp?) can't claim victory in Iraq...how shallow and misguided is that...and a good portion of the American people will justify continued bloodshed because they don't want to be losers....jokes on them.

Peace

jlew24asu

callen wrote:

People supporting are stupid- well I whole heartedly agree as does 98% if the worlds population...so this isn't a stretch. One of Cheney's talking points this weekend for continuing the battle is "so Alqaida(sp?) can't claim victory in Iraq...how shallow and misguided is that...and a good portion of the American people will justify continued bloodshed because they don't want to be losers....jokes on them.

Peace

whats stupid is making up statistics. 98% huh. why is cheney's comment shallow and misguided? would you like to see el queda claim victory in Iraq, maybe set up some training camps? blow themselves in the middle of a crowded market full of innocent iraqi civillians? wait, who is misguided again?