And the Violence Continues

shiraz

don't gimme no wrote:

I am 100% certain that you are correct......

.....according to Israeli and U.S. media / lip service

Oh please, enough with this paranoia-conspiracy way of thinking, I thought we had some reasonable discussion. Check up the Lebanese press, unless you think they are lieing as well. Who knows? Maybe prime minister Hariri was'nt murdered at all cause he was trying to oppose Syria & Hizbullah. Yeah. Sure. I see dead people...

NCfan

Something is becoming quite clear to me.... the West is getting its ass kicked by those that support Islamic states in the Middle East - Hezbollah, Iran, Syria. We are losing.

We went from a peaceful period in Lebanon in which the Harriri government got the Syrian army to pull out, while peaceful negotiations were ongoing with the Israeli's.

Now, fucking Hezbollah pretty much just inherited Lebanon and Iran and Syria are laughing at us. The international community is quietly thinking "oh shit this isn't good" but will damn Israel if anybody gets killed.

This is a big poker game, and these guys are calling our bluff. We speak big, but never act on it because of a combination of shitty leaders (Bush/Olmert), a pussy population (Europe/US), indifference from profiteering nations (Russia/China), condemnation by the international media when people get killed... they always blame it on the west.

Fuck this... the Islamist know we are reluctant to fight because our populations are too emersed in our easy lifestyle. Dying for us is losing our theraputic, easy, enjoyable life - and dying for an Islamist means paradise.....

They are exploiting this and they won't stop until we bring the fucking heat! It's the same shit Hitler did... and we appeased him all the way.

jsand

shiraz wrote:

Oh please, enough with this paranoia-conspiracy way of thinking, I thought we had some reasonable discussion. Check up the Lebanese press, unless you think they are lieing as well. Who knows? Maybe prime minister Hariri was'nt murdered at all cause he was trying to oppose Syria & Hizbullah. Yeah. Sure. I see dead people...

No. The Syrians didn't murder Hariri - it was a joint US/Israeli conspiracy. Remember, Zionists rule the world and are responsible for just about everything wrong in it.

sourdough

jsand wrote:

Shiraz, you're violating a very sacred rule here on the moving train - calling terrorists/extremists what they are. Remember, they are only committing atrocities because of legitimate grievances. If Israel would just disappear, they'd all be peaceful law-abiding citizens.

I have no problem calling Hamas/hizbollah terrorists or extremists because that is what they are. I also call the Israeli government a terrorist state. I see legitimate grievances on both sides but both sides are acting criminally.

jsand

NCfan wrote:

Something is becoming quite clear to me.... the West is getting its ass kicked by those that support Islamic states in the Middle East - Hezbollah, Iran, Syria. We are losing.

We went from a peaceful period in Lebanon in which the Harriri government got the Syrian army to pull out, while peaceful negotiations were ongoing with the Israeli's.

Now, fucking Hezbollah pretty much just inherited Lebanon and Iran and Syria are laughing at us. The international community is quietly thinking "oh shit this isn't good" but will damn Israel if anybody gets killed.

This is a big poker game, and these guys are calling our bluff. We speak big, but never act on it because of a combination of shitty leaders (Bush/Olmert), a pussy population (Europe/US), indifference from profiteering nations (Russia/China), condemnation by the international media when people get killed... they always blame it on the west.

Fuck this... the Islamist know we are reluctant to fight because our populations are too emersed in our easy lifestyle. Dying for us is losing our theraputic, easy, enjoyable life - and dying for an Islamist means paradise.....

They are exploiting this and they won't stop until we bring the fucking heat! It's the same shit Hitler did... and we appeased him all the way.

Couldn't agree with you more. I've been saying it for a while now - the US, and Western civilization, will die from the inside. People think that we can choose whether or not to be involved in this war being waged on us, but there is no choice - either we fight, or we die.

shiraz

sourdough wrote:

I think Lebanon (in general) just wanted to move on. They were tired of the fighting and tired of war and wanted to return to normalcy. Lebanon wanted peace and did what they needed to do to achieve that, but to say that they were warm and fuzzy about Israel may be a bit far from the truth. However, that said, not all Lebanon felt as secure with Israel. This is only going to further distance lebanon from Israel and I fear it will create more extremists from moderates. Do you think Lebanon is going to want to trust Israel again?

I never used the words "warm & fuzzy". We have what we're calling here "a cold peace" with Egypt, and that's enough. Lebanon had to trust us as much as we had to trust them to do the right thing. unfortunately, it didn't happen. Hariri was murdered, and the next regime went back to Syria & Hizbullah's arms. But even after this war, Israel & Lebanon are trusting eachother for doing the right thing. You see, it is not a matter of choice now, both of us have to feel that way in order to avoid further escalation. That's why the IDF is backing off, and handing over the control to the Lebanese army, though we know this is one week force who can't really resist Hizbullah.

rebornFixer

sourdough's points are pretty moderate ... I don't entirely agree, but at least I can see his point. However, we also have these people that basically bury their hands in the sand. Do you guys really think that Islamic extremism is a fabrication? How is that even a realistic view? Its bald-faced denial. Regardless of the ultimate source of the threat, be it bad foreign policy decisions in the West or a severely disordered culture in the Middle East where violence is venerated (I believe its BOTH), the threat is obviously real.

shiraz

sourdough wrote:

I have no problem calling Hamas/hizbollah terrorists or extremists because that is what they are. I also call the Israeli government a terrorist state. I see legitimate grievances on both sides but both sides are acting criminally.

No no no no, I'm sorry. You may have to re-read my posts regarding this matter. I was talking about extremists way of thinking, their ideology and beliefs (regardless their religion). Israeli govt do not believe muslims should die, nor the killing of them would bring you into the gates of hevean. It doesn't call for the destruction of any other state. If you think Israel= group of extremists than there's nothing we should discuss here, because the fact is - you are worng.

jsand

shiraz wrote:

No no no no, I'm sorry. You may have to re-read my posts regarding this matter. I was talking about extremists way of thinking, their ideology and beliefs (regardless their religion). Israeli govt do not believe muslims should die, nor the killing of them would bring you into the gates of hevean. It doesn't call for the destruction of any other state. If you think Israel= group of extremists than there's nothing we should discuss here, because the fact is - you are worng.

Shiraz, you are now violating another moving train rule - must...find...moral equivalency.

acutejam

NCfan wrote:

... the Islamist know we are reluctant to fight because our populations are too emersed in our easy lifestyle. Dying for us is losing our theraputic, easy, enjoyable life ...

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." - Admiral Yamamoto

I fear very much, for the world, that someone will take a sharp stick to that giant, who is very much at fault for falling asleep, again. And then, bring on Patton:

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."

How very different that philosophy is from a suicide bombers, neh?

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell

sourdough

shiraz wrote:

No no no no, I'm sorry. You may have to re-read my posts regarding this matter. I was talking about extremists way of thinking, their ideology and beliefs (regardless their religion). Israeli govt do not believe muslims should die, nor the killing of them would bring you into the gates of hevean. It doesn't call for the destruction of any other state. If you think Israel= group of extremists than there's nothing we should discuss here, because the fact is - you are worng.

I do not think Israel is and extremist state, what i do believe is they use terror/criminal tactics to attain their ends.

jsand

acutejam wrote:

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." - Admiral Yamamoto

I fear very much, for the world, that someone will take a sharp stick to that giant, who is very much at fault for falling asleep, again. And then, bring on Patton:

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."

How very different that philosophy is from a suicide bombers, neh?

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell

Hey acutejam, is that "neh" from Ender's Game? Seriously wondering.

Purple Hawk

NCfan wrote:

Something is becoming quite clear to me.... the West is getting its ass kicked by those that support Islamic states in the Middle East - Hezbollah, Iran, Syria. We are losing.

We went from a peaceful period in Lebanon in which the Harriri government got the Syrian army to pull out, while peaceful negotiations were ongoing with the Israeli's.

Now, fucking Hezbollah pretty much just inherited Lebanon and Iran and Syria are laughing at us. The international community is quietly thinking "oh shit this isn't good" but will damn Israel if anybody gets killed.

This is a big poker game, and these guys are calling our bluff. We speak big, but never act on it because of a combination of shitty leaders (Bush/Olmert), a pussy population (Europe/US), indifference from profiteering nations (Russia/China), condemnation by the international media when people get killed... they always blame it on the west.

Fuck this... the Islamist know we are reluctant to fight because our populations are too emersed in our easy lifestyle. Dying for us is losing our theraputic, easy, enjoyable life - and dying for an Islamist means paradise.....

They are exploiting this and they won't stop until we bring the fucking heat! It's the same shit Hitler did... and we appeased him all the way.

I think that this is the best post that I've ever read on this board.

rebornFixer

Maybe I am truly too paranoid ... But I believe that its entirely possible that, one day, I will have no choice but to fight for the values of our society, however imperfect the latter may be. I am no soldier, either.

Not something I want. Just something I fear.

shiraz

sourdough wrote:

I do not think Israel is and extremist state, what i do believe is they use terror/criminal tactics to attain their ends.

fair enough, but don't compare it to a group of extremists anymore, cause there's a huge difference:tactics can be easily changed, ideology & beliefs - not at all. Terror is a state of mind more than a state of action.

Ahnimus

shiraz wrote:

fair enough, but don't compare it to a group of extremists anymore, cause there's a huge difference:tactics can be easily changed, ideology & beliefs - not at all. Terror is a state of mind more than a state of action.

In my opinion Mossad is a terrorist organization. Based on their history of terrorism.

Eliot Rosewater

shiraz wrote:

I believe those people "earn" their definition of being an extremists, and not calling this phenomenon by its name only because of some people who always use generalizations, is extremely WRONG.

I appreciate that and it looks like you can appreciate my concern. I'm still very skeptical, however, of those who easily label groups or individuals as terrorists or extremists. While I mostly agree with your definitions, I suspect there are far fewer terrorists and extremists in this world than some would lead us to believe.

Eliot Rosewater

reborncareerist wrote:

Do you guys really think that Islamic extremism is a fabrication?

Fabrication? No. Exaggeration? Yes.

shiraz

Ahnimus wrote:

In my opinion Mossad is a terrorist organization. Based on their history of terrorism.

Im my opinion, someone like you who automaticly concluded I'm a fraud out of NOTHING just because I'm pro-Israeli / Israeli civilian, should not expect others to take his words seriously.

rebornFixer

don't gimme no wrote:

Fabrication? No. Exaggeration? Yes.

OK, cool. But let me ask you this ... How can something at the root of so many wars across the entire globe truly be called an exaggeration? And yes, I agree that wars like Iraq are a two-way street. Bad politics in the U.S. has played a huge role in making the situation worse. But truly ... the globe is plagued by this ideology ... The actions of leaders like Bush only serve to fan flames that are already present.