And the Violence Continues

jsand

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Maybe there was something that was not going to work...take this way they lead a major offensive that turns into a nightmare of epic proportions like Iraq....you would therfore be even more critized than you already are with no plan out....like I said it could very much be a possibility that the risk of this occuring was too much....I know we are speaking hypotheticals but I see it like that.....

I'm honestly not completely versed in the logistics of it, but from what I read, the plan didn't involve an extended occupation. It was apparently a bombing campaign on the Beirut strongholds first, instead of bombing the southern region first.

RockinInCanada

jsand wrote:

I'm honestly not completely versed in the logistics of it, but from what I read, the plan didn't involve an extended occupation. It was apparently a bombing campaign on the Beirut strongholds first, instead of bombing the southern region first.

So I know you are disappointed in the outcome do you now blame Olmert or are there are parties at play that deserve blame for this....

rebornFixer

sourdough wrote:

I do agree with you that they had to respond in some way, whether their response was appropriate or not, welll..... Also, would Hizbollah even have existed if not for Israeli aggresssion in 1982? I'm not condoning Hizbollah or their actions which were also barbaric and evil, but I don't see Israel as the good guy. The kidnappings (technically they are "captured" as soldiers and not "kidnapped" were in response to the actual kidnapping of lebonese civilians which are being held in Israel without charges or trial. Who is going to respond to Israel or hold them responsibel over that?

shiraz addressed the Lebanese prisoner issue in a post a while back, and I got the sense that the three people in prison have all been convicted, at least one murdered Israeli civilians. Sorry, but these prisoners belong where they are, based on what I know about the situation.
And you are correct about the captured soldiers. However, the attack and subsequent capture was an act of war by any measure.

jsand

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

So I know you are disappointed in the outcome do you now blame Olmert or are there are parties at play that deserve blame for this....

I blame Olmert first - he is the prime minister. The other parties at play for me are basically every country besides the US and, maybe, Canada, that exerted pressure on Israel and attacked it for conducting a war that it did not want any part of. The UN and Kofi Annan too.

RockinInCanada

jsand wrote:

I blame Olmert first - he is the prime minister. The other parties at play for me are basically every country besides the US and, maybe, Canada, that exerted pressure on Israel and attacked it for conducting a war that it did not want any part of. The UN and Kofi Annan too.

Well it is the choice of countries to denounce the actions that they do not seem fit....not everyone is going to agree with you....regardless of who you are.....unless you decide to start going 100% unilaterally but I dont think that will help the cause to much.....

sourdough

reborncareerist wrote:

shiraz addressed the Lebanese prisoner issue in a post a while back, and I got the sense that the three people in prison have all been convicted, at least one murdered Israeli civilians. Sorry, but these prisoners belong where they are, based on what I know about the situation.
And you are correct about the captured soldiers. However, the attack and subsequent capture was an act of war by any measure.

So how many Lebonese civilians are in Israeli prisons? I was under the impression that there were possibly hundreds.

rebornFixer

sourdough wrote:

So how many Lebonese civilians are in Israeli prisons? I was under the impression that there were possibly hundreds.

shiraz, can you help out?

jsand

reborncareerist wrote:

shiraz, can you help out?

I'm pretty sure the number is 3. Maybe 4.

sourdough

I think I would have very different opinions on this whole mess if not for the historical record of the whole mess. I would sympathise with the existance of Hamas and Hizbollah if they did not vow to eliminate Israel, but instead to resist Israeli aggression or for equal rights for palestinians.

my2hands

NCfan wrote:

Plus, throw in the fact that Netanyahoo will likely take office by the end of the year

talk about extremist, he is the hawk of hawks

my2hands

NCfan wrote:

Any guesses what will happen when Hezbollah refuses to disarm? They are currently under a UN mandate to disarm, but it is quite obvious that they have no intentions of doing so. Armies don't disband after they win a war... duh!

So in essence, Israel will theoretically have the support of the UN if they decide to try and disarm Hezbollah themselves. Furthermore, if the UN proves that it cannot fullfill its own mandate, I doubt Israel will care either way if the UN supports them or condems them.

Plus, throw in the fact that Netanyahoo will likely take office by the end of the year - and the probablility for another war is very likely.

What do you guys think?

you are correct, this is far from over

shiraz

reborncareerist wrote:

shiraz, can you help out?

Only 3 or 4, all had a fair trial.

Eliot Rosewater

dayan wrote:

I am being attacked by the people with wacked out religious beliefs,

Exactly what the administration wants you to believe. It's not their religion that causes their hostility towards the west, it's the U.S. foreign policy. I'm pretty tired of hearing the terms "muslim extremist" or "islamic fascist" because those terms really are ignorantly overused. Sure there may be some, but I don't believe they even exist on a large scale, and certainly not as large as the bush administration would like for us to believe. I'm disappointed time and time again by the number of people who fall right into their little trap of turning us against "them".

sourdough

I just googled, so I don't know how accurate this is. but...

http://www.arabmediawatch.com/amw/CountryBackgrounds/Lebanon/LebaneseprisonersinIsrael/tabid/321/Default.aspx

An incomplete list obtained by Ha'aretz from the Israeli Prison Service in March 1997 suggested that Israel held 52 Lebanese, mostly captured in Lebanese territory by the Israeli Defence Force or its proxy militia, the South Lebanon Army (disbanded since Israel's withdrawal from south Lebanon in 2000). Particular concern was held for 21 Lebanese detainees, who broadly fitted two categories:

- 11 men were tried for offences committed in 1986/87 such as military training, attacks on Israel, weapons possession and membership of banned organisations (eg Hezbollah). They were convicted by a military court and served their terms, yet were still held long after the fact under administrative detention in a Ramaleh prison. The reason for this has never been made public.

- 10 others were captured around the same time, and held in administrative detention without charge or trial. They were forcibly taken to Israel, where they were held in a Ramaleh prison. Their presence there, initially denied, was eventually admitted. No public hearing ever took place, though this is understood to be the norm.

A damning report produced by Humans Rights Watch in 1997, entitled Without Status or Protection: Lebanese Detainees in Israel, asserts that all 21 prisoners were held without due process or humane treatment, in breach of the Geneva Convention (1949), and that no status under the laws of war was accorded them. Five were released in December 1999, and another, reported to be mentally ill, was released in April 2000.

The report expressed concern that two of the men were thought to be held as hostages, a further grave breach of the Geneva Convention, as it was understood that Israel had conditioned their release on information leading to the return of Israeli POWs and MIAs.

In April 2000, the Israeli High Court ruled their detention to be illegal under domestic Israeli law, which was then rapidly changed in June of the same year to sidestep the difficulty. The two were released in January 2004 as part of a wider prisoner swap.

Further concern was held over Khiam Prison in formerly occupied South Lebanon, where countless Lebanese were subjected to unlawful detention and severe abuse since it opened in 1985, according to Amnesty International, which monitored the prison since it opened.

An open letter, written by an Amnesty delegation who visited it shortly after its closure in May 2000, contended that even though it was run by the SLA, Israel, as the occupying power, was legally held to be responsible for it.

Many prisoners released from this facility required physical and psychological rehabilitation. On 23 May 2000, the prison was closed upon the collapse of the SLA, and the remaining 144 prisoners were released and the jailers fled.

As recently as 27 June 2006, laws concerning the incommunicado detention of prisoners have been changed to extend to 96 hours the period before which a prisoner must come before a judge, and 21 days remains the period before which a prisoner suspected of 'security' offences must have access to a lawyer.

Lebanese prisoner profiles:

A major prisoner swap took place on 29 January 2004 in a German-brokered deal in which 23 Lebanese nationals were released to Hezbollah in exchange for a reservist colonel and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers. Also included in the deal were Arabs of other nationalities and 400 Palestinians.

Under the deal, Israel provided Lebanon with information on 24 missing Lebanese, and turned over the bodies of 59 Lebanese killed by Israeli forces. Some uncertainty exists as to who exactly remains imprisoned in Israel. Israel admits to holding two Lebanese, but Lebanese sources say three or four.

Samir Kantar, a Druze from the Aleih District of Lebanon, has been in prison since 1979, when he was captured as a lieutenant in the Palestine Liberation Organisation on a mission aimed at capturing Israeli soldiers. Several people died. Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah has frequently called for his release in prisoner exchanges, but this has always been turned down by Israeli authorities, his release only likely when linked to the provision of information regarding an Israeli airman downed in 1986.

Nassim Nasir, from Bazourieh, took Israeli citizenship a year after entering Israel due to his mother being Jewish. He was arrested in 2002 and imprisoned, accused of spying for Hezbollah.

Yehia Skeif, a Christian from north Lebanon, has been held since 1978 for participating in a military operation against the Israeli Army. Reportedly in poor health by those prisoners that saw him while serving their sentences, his detention is not acknowledged by the Israeli authorities, but asserted by the Lebanese.

Israel holds a fourth man, a fisherman called Ali Faratan, according to Hezbollah MP Nawar al-Sahili, though this is unconfirmed.

Israel is also thought to be holding 25 Lebanese citizens of Palestinian origin, many for conventional criminal offences.

jsand

don't gimme no wrote:

Exactly what the administration wants you to believe. It's not their religion that causes their hostility towards the west, it's the U.S. foreign policy. I'm pretty tired of hearing the terms "muslim extremist" or "islamic fascist" because those terms really are ignorantly overused. Sure there may be some, but I don't believe they even exist on a large scale, and certainly not as large as the bush administration would like for us to believe. I'm disappointed time and time again by the number of people who fall right into their little trap of turning us against "them".

Dayan is in Israel - he knows a lot more than you whether these Islamic fascists (I bet that touched a nerve) exist on a large scale.

Eliot Rosewater

jsand wrote:

What's even more upsetting is that Olmert was presented with a war plan that would have destroyed/disarmed Hezbollah within 2 weeks, but he didn't have the stomach to do it.

Or maybe someone realized that 2 weeks is entirely unreasonable when we're talking about war.

jsand wrote:

Israel, as you say, is always damned if they do, damned if they don't. If it sits back and does nothing, its terrorist enemies perceive it as a sign of weakness, so they will keep on attacking.

Yes, such a martyr they love to be.

jsand wrote:

If it fights the terrorist enemies, the world cries about civilian casualties, expecting Israel to fight a perfect war, which no other country could possibly do. It is sickening.

Come on, there's a huge difference between "expecting Israel to fight a perfect war" and expecting them to be somewhat responsible in their killing, if that's even possible.

Eliot Rosewater

jsand wrote:

Dayan is in Israel - he knows a lot more than you whether these Islamic fascists (I bet that touched a nerve) exist on a large scale.

So Israel, being America's bitch, isn't being spoon fed the same garbage about terrorists and muslim extremists and islamic fascists? I submit that they are.

shiraz

don't gimme no wrote:

Exactly what the administration wants you to believe. It's not their religion that causes their hostility towards the west, it's the U.S. foreign policy. I'm pretty tired of hearing the terms "muslim extremist" or "islamic fascist" because those terms really are ignorantly overused. Sure there may be some, but I don't believe they even exist on a large scale, and certainly not as large as the bush administration would like for us to believe. I'm disappointed time and time again by the number of people who fall right into their little trap of turning us against "them".

We're not talking about religion, we're talking about ideology. "muslim extremist" or "islamic fascist" are people who believe Israel must be destroyed. The problem starts when "people"= presidents (Iran & Syria), who obviously influence their nation's state of mind. If you can't see that, than there's something wrong with you point of view.

Eliot Rosewater

dayan wrote:

I agree. The tragedy is really what will now happen to Lebanon. A "victorious" Hezbollah is basically going to take over the country. They don't even have to win an election or conduct a coup. They can just dictate policy because everyone knows that they have the only credible military force in the country backing them up. Problems with Israel's conducting of the war aside, a continued Israeli offensive that resulted in the disarming of Hezbollah, or at least a situation where they could not credibly claim victory, would have been much better for Lebanon.

No, that would have been much better for Israel, not necessarily Lebanon. A scenario where Hezbollah becomes the Lebanese military would satisfy the UN resolution wouldn't it?

shiraz

sourdough wrote:

I just googled, so I don't know how accurate this is. but...

http://www.arabmediawatch.com/amw/CountryBackgrounds/Lebanon/LebaneseprisonersinIsrael/tabid/321/Default.aspx

An incomplete list obtained by Ha'aretz from the Israeli Prison Service in March 1997 suggested that Israel held 52 Lebanese, mostly captured in Lebanese territory by the Israeli Defence Force or its proxy militia, the South Lebanon Army (disbanded since Israel's withdrawal from south Lebanon in 2000). Particular concern was held for 21 Lebanese detainees, who broadly fitted two categories:

- 11 men were tried for offences committed in 1986/87 such as military training, attacks on Israel, weapons possession and membership of banned organisations (eg Hezbollah). They were convicted by a military court and served their terms, yet were still held long after the fact under administrative detention in a Ramaleh prison. The reason for this has never been made public.

- 10 others were captured around the same time, and held in administrative detention without charge or trial. They were forcibly taken to Israel, where they were held in a Ramaleh prison. Their presence there, initially denied, was eventually admitted. No public hearing ever took place, though this is understood to be the norm.

A damning report produced by Humans Rights Watch in 1997, entitled Without Status or Protection: Lebanese Detainees in Israel, asserts that all 21 prisoners were held without due process or humane treatment, in breach of the Geneva Convention (1949), and that no status under the laws of war was accorded them. Five were released in December 1999, and another, reported to be mentally ill, was released in April 2000.

The report expressed concern that two of the men were thought to be held as hostages, a further grave breach of the Geneva Convention, as it was understood that Israel had conditioned their release on information leading to the return of Israeli POWs and MIAs.

In April 2000, the Israeli High Court ruled their detention to be illegal under domestic Israeli law, which was then rapidly changed in June of the same year to sidestep the difficulty. The two were released in January 2004 as part of a wider prisoner swap.

Further concern was held over Khiam Prison in formerly occupied South Lebanon, where countless Lebanese were subjected to unlawful detention and severe abuse since it opened in 1985, according to Amnesty International, which monitored the prison since it opened.

An open letter, written by an Amnesty delegation who visited it shortly after its closure in May 2000, contended that even though it was run by the SLA, Israel, as the occupying power, was legally held to be responsible for it.

Many prisoners released from this facility required physical and psychological rehabilitation. On 23 May 2000, the prison was closed upon the collapse of the SLA, and the remaining 144 prisoners were released and the jailers fled.

As recently as 27 June 2006, laws concerning the incommunicado detention of prisoners have been changed to extend to 96 hours the period before which a prisoner must come before a judge, and 21 days remains the period before which a prisoner suspected of 'security' offences must have access to a lawyer.

Lebanese prisoner profiles:

A major prisoner swap took place on 29 January 2004 in a German-brokered deal in which 23 Lebanese nationals were released to Hezbollah in exchange for a reservist colonel and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers. Also included in the deal were Arabs of other nationalities and 400 Palestinians.

Under the deal, Israel provided Lebanon with information on 24 missing Lebanese, and turned over the bodies of 59 Lebanese killed by Israeli forces. Some uncertainty exists as to who exactly remains imprisoned in Israel. Israel admits to holding two Lebanese, but Lebanese sources say three or four.

Samir Kantar, a Druze from the Aleih District of Lebanon, has been in prison since 1979, when he was captured as a lieutenant in the Palestine Liberation Organisation on a mission aimed at capturing Israeli soldiers. Several people died. Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah has frequently called for his release in prisoner exchanges, but this has always been turned down by Israeli authorities, his release only likely when linked to the provision of information regarding an Israeli airman downed in 1986.

Nassim Nasir, from Bazourieh, took Israeli citizenship a year after entering Israel due to his mother being Jewish. He was arrested in 2002 and imprisoned, accused of spying for Hezbollah.

Yehia Skeif, a Christian from north Lebanon, has been held since 1978 for participating in a military operation against the Israeli Army. Reportedly in poor health by those prisoners that saw him while serving their sentences, his detention is not acknowledged by the Israeli authorities, but asserted by the Lebanese.

Israel holds a fourth man, a fisherman called Ali Faratan, according to Hezbollah MP Nawar al-Sahili, though this is unconfirmed.

Israel is also thought to be holding 25 Lebanese citizens of Palestinian origin, many for conventional criminal offences.

according to an updated info (07/2006) from the same source (ha'aretz): 4 Lebanese prisoners who had a fair trail. Those 25 men are Palestinians who also have a Lebanese citizenship.

*edit - I was just trying to say your info is up-to-date.