Ankle-biting Democrats

The Illinoisemakers

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Who are you a fan of? I'm not a fan of the same old shit that's been going on since this war started and I'm going to support someone is against it too...not just kinda against it, or for a more watered down version of it to appease voters.

I haven't decided yet. I'm a fan of staying until Iraq can police and protect itself. I'm not a fan of passing the buck of a problem we started to someone else, (turning it over to the UN). I'm also a fan of someone who will continue to provide the funds necessary to make sure soldiers have good equipment and to contractors/military personel who are rebuilding Iraq's infastructure. I'm a fan of that person.

jlew24asu

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

I just have a real tough time seeing your viewpoint...and instead of name-calling I am doing my best to really take a look at your vantage point....but as an individual I find it very disturbing that force is used to take another countries natural resource...and if that is indeed the primary reason (which can be stacked upon lesser reasons) it really bothers me a as person.

I tend to view it as completly wrong that has lead not only to civilian deaths but to those of your country-men....plus it shows me that America (under current administration) will stop at nothing to do things their way....you see this is why I sympathize with those in the area of Middle East (and not those strapping bombs to their chests....that is absurd but not the topic at hand) because there lives are being destroyed for a country thousands of miles away need for oil....when if this is indeed a free world (that your adminstration tries to "spread") they should have the right to dictate their policy in their natural resources....just shows me that the current American government chooses not to fight fair...if you want to take down a terrorist organization in Afghanistan I understand....but to simply strong arm your way to control a natural resourse is nothing short of shelfish and arrogant.....

I think that their are better ways to keep the oil flowing to your pumps...one that unfrotunately could increase prices but not at the price of your citizens blood....I for one would never want to re-look my life as dying for oil....I feel sorry for those fighting over there if this is the primary reason...makes any heroic and helpful action look mundane...which is very very unfortunate....

hey ghandi , I dont like it either. I just see the reality of the situation. its not my "vantage point" in thinking that its ok to go to war for oil. but its a resource that needs to be protected from the control of a single evil dictator. I would never support a war to protect oil. but lets we leave Iraq today, Iran invades and takes over the country. then they march over the desert and take over saudi arabia. oil prices go to $120 a barrel. all world economies go into recession. Iran mass kills anyone who isnt the right sect of Islam.

should something be done?

jlew24asu

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Contractors: A Job well done?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXATMnerBjI

I thought we were talking about contractors who are rebuilding Iraq.


stop pretending to care if the soldiers are well fed.

RockinInCanada

jlew24asu wrote:

hey ghandi, I dont like it either. I just see the reality of the situation. its not my "vantage point" in thinking that its ok to go to war for oil. but its a resource that needs to be protected from the control of a single evil dictator. I would never support a war to protect oil. but lets we leave Iraq today, Iran invades and takes over the country. then they march over the desert and take over saudi arabia. oil prices go to $120 a barrel. all world economies go into recession. Iran mass kills anyone who isnt the right sect of Islam.

should something be done?

Who has Iran attacked lately...the only country doing the attacking is the USA....should I view you as evil....also prices of oil went up after you attached Iraq...should I also blame the USA as well....I won't just saying Iran has yet done any action to say it is brutal regime...the next brutal regime in the area is Saudi Arabia who if human rights was the primary reason for being in Iraq then you should have attacked them yesterday....yet you don't...please don't pretend America distances itself from brutal regimes...they hold the hands of many.....they just deal with those that abide to their every waking wish.....

I am sorry I view the world as a place for everyone...not a sand-box where I can pillage to make my life easier....

jlew24asu

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Who has Iran attacked lately

arguable, US troops on the battlefield of Iraq. but no, they havent attacked another country. Saddam did.

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

...the only country doing the attacking is the USA....should I view you as evil....also prices of oil went up after you attached Iraq...should I also blame the USA as well

Iraq war (for going) big mistake, I agree. staying, that different.

RockinInCanada

jlew24asu wrote:

arguable, US troops on the battlefield of Iraq. but no, they havent attacked another country. Saddam did.


Iraq war (for going) big mistake, I agree. staying, that different.

So the USA did not attack Iraq?

RockinInCanada

Anyhow just saying that I cannot fathom the understanding that it is okay to fight another nation for their natural resources....just cannot bend my mind around how some can see the justificaiton of it...to me it seems some people place their life on a higher plane than those in other places....where I tend to see everyone as equal.....regardless of where you come from....

Abookamongstthemany

jlew24asu wrote:

I thought we were talking about contractors who are rebuilding Iraq.


stop pretending to care if the soldiers are well fed.

We were. The point is if they don't even care about our own troops, why do you think they give a shit about the Iraqi people.

Why would I not care about them?

Last Exodus

RainDog wrote:

I suppose you're more informed and analytical than the Iraq Study Group? Damn, and I thought I was arrogant.


Endless war.

I didnt say I was. But the Iraq study group was just 3 politcos with an agenda. I did not say endless war. I said that legislating war is a bad idea. You missed the popint entirely.

Last Exodus

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Why no choice?

Because you would not control the oil?

If not then why?

of course it's about oil. and if you think for a second that the United States is the only one who needs arabian oil you are kidding yourself. unlike Europe, this country does have at least some ability to produce oil. not enough. but countries like FRANCE, Germany, Japan, Australia, and on and on, also depend on Persian Gulf oil.

I did not say this was a good thing. I think we need to kick the oil habit asap. But it's not happening tommorow. This is called real politik. Or in other words, it sucks, but that's life.

Last Exodus

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Then say what you mean on why we can't leave and drop all the bullshit.

I just did

Last Exodus

Cosmo wrote:

...
That's okay. You consistantly prove the emptiness of you opinions... this is no exception. I'll state it in terms that you may be able to understand.
...
STAY COURSE, NO GOOD. COURSE LEAD TO DEEPER SWAMP. NO GOOD.

and your option would be RUN FAST SO IRAN CAN CONTROL REGION?

Last Exodus

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

I just have a real tough time seeing your viewpoint...and instead of name-calling (which you have not done please do not get me wrong) I am doing my best to really take a look at your vantage point....but as an individual I find it very disturbing that force is used to take another countries natural resource...and if that is indeed the primary reason (which can be stacked upon lesser reasons) it really bothers me a as person.

I tend to view it as completly wrong that has lead not only to civilian deaths but to those of your country-men....plus it shows me that America (under current administration) will stop at nothing to do things their way....you see this is why I sympathize with those in the area of Middle East (and not those strapping bombs to their chests....that is absurd but not the topic at hand) because there lives are being destroyed for a country thousands of miles away need for oil....when if this is indeed a free world (that your adminstration tries to "spread") they should have the right to dictate their policy in their natural resources....just shows me that the current American government chooses not to fight fair...if you want to take down a terrorist organization in Afghanistan I understand....but to simply strong arm your way to control a natural resource is nothing short of shelfish and arrogant.....

I think that their are better ways to keep the oil flowing to your pumps...one that unfrotunately could increase prices but not at the price of your citizens blood....I for one would never want to re-look my life as dying for oil....I feel sorry for those fighting over there if this is the primary reason...makes any heroic and helpful action look mundane...which is very very unfortunate....

This is a misperception generally drummed up my the Europeans at the start of this war. If you in Canada think this was has in any way been good for this countires oil deposits, come on down and take a look at what a tank of gas costs. Whether George Bush had the Iraqi oil fields in his sights, or just Saddaam is a matter of pure speculation. Personally I think George W is not smart enough to be that diabolical. I think he is simple thinker who truly believed that axis of evil crap. I still think he believes it. I also think it was payback. Saddam tried to have his father killed. I think that made little George lose focus. Of course I dont claim to know. Im just speculating.

Last Exodus

jlew24asu wrote:

hey ghandi , I dont like it either. I just see the reality of the situation. its not my "vantage point" in thinking that its ok to go to war for oil. but its a resource that needs to be protected from the control of a single evil dictator. I would never support a war to protect oil. but lets we leave Iraq today, Iran invades and takes over the country. then they march over the desert and take over saudi arabia. oil prices go to $120 a barrel. all world economies go into recession. Iran mass kills anyone who isnt the right sect of Islam.

should something be done?

Last time I checked most wars are really fought over resources, whether it's land, minerals, air, water, or oil, resources are ALWAYS what war is about. Propoganda is what makes it easier for people to sell war, like slavery, or pearl harbor. Hogwash. Economics. Plain and simple.

gue_barium

NCfan wrote:

Everyone concedes that Iraq has not turned out like we hoped it would. But it's painfully obvious that Democrats (and some Republicans) are now emersed in political posturing based on opinion polls.

They know the majority of Americans oppose the war, and so they are trying to score political points with their constituents by demanding that the war come to an end.

But I haven't heard a cohesive plan from anybody... You hear I'm in favor of a "phased withdrawal" or "bring all the troops home"... but do the problems in the Middle East end there? Of course they don't, which begs the question - then what?

Bring the troops home, and then what? Phased withdrawal and then what?
Nobody wants to talk about what's to come afterwards. Isn't this a bit short-sighted?

For all of his problems and downfalls, Bush's strategy is the only one that deals with the long term. His plan might have a small chance of success, but at least it offers a long term solution if it does prevail. Nobody else can say that, mostly becuase it is something nobody else wants to talk about.

I have all the respect in the world for somebody who doesn't like this war. But I will never understand why people would want us to leave now and abandon a nation in need. If anything, we need to buck up and do the dirty work that needs to be done to secure that country. It isn't beyond our capabilites - it's just beyond our will, which is pathetic.

Then hop on your horse, and go.

enharmonic

NCfan wrote:

Everyone concedes that Iraq has not turned out like we hoped it would. But it's painfully obvious that Democrats (and some Republicans) are now emersed in political posturing based on opinion polls.

They know the majority of Americans oppose the war, and so they are trying to score political points with their constituents by demanding that the war come to an end.

But I haven't heard a cohesive plan from anybody... You hear I'm in favor of a "phased withdrawal" or "bring all the troops home"... but do the problems in the Middle East end there? Of course they don't, which begs the question - then what?

Bring the troops home, and then what? Phased withdrawal and then what?
Nobody wants to talk about what's to come afterwards. Isn't this a bit short-sighted?

For all of his problems and downfalls, Bush's strategy is the only one that deals with the long term. His plan might have a small chance of success, but at least it offers a long term solution if it does prevail. Nobody else can say that, mostly becuase it is something nobody else wants to talk about.

I have all the respect in the world for somebody who doesn't like this war. But I will never understand why people would want us to leave now and abandon a nation in need. If anything, we need to buck up and do the dirty work that needs to be done to secure that country. It isn't beyond our capabilites - it's just beyond our will, which is pathetic.

I have a plan.

Congress should lie to the American people and tell them that everything is now great in Iraq and it's ok to come home. If the American people need proof...well...new episodes of Lost are proof that all is right in the world, and questioning this proof would be quite unamerican.

I bet it would work...about as much substance as the lie that got us into this shit at least.

gue_barium

enharmonic wrote:

I have a plan.

Congress should lie to the American people and tell them that everything is now great in Iraq and it's ok to come home. If the American people need proof...well...new episodes of Lost are proof that all is right in the world, and questioning this proof would be quite unamerican.

I bet it would work...about as much substance as the lie that got us into this shit at least.

That just might work.

Last Exodus

Now I know I didn't vote for George Bush. And I ain't buyin that everyone on this board either voted for a democrat or an indepedent in each in every election since 2000. I also bet alot of you just plain didn't vote. I know I didn't in 2000. I was too sickened by my choices that I refused to vote. I was working for Bill Bradley who would have been a fantastic candidate and a brilliant President. When the Dems chose Gore, I was out. I grudgingly cast a vote for Kerry in 04 knowing full well that, again, he was the wrong choice.

The point is, we have the power to choose our leaders. We chose George Bush. Twice. He got us into this mess, but we as voters collaborated by either not voting or voting for the wrong guy. Wrong guy could have been Ralph Nader, or the wrong guy in the primary, or even George Bush. But we voted wrong.

Now that we voted wrong, and have destabilized the whole fucking world with our choices, we have to fix it. We have an obligation to fix the country and the region WE fucked up. Now that has nothing to do with oil. We have to stay until the shit is fixed. We Americans don't run. Especially when we fucked up. We gotta stay and fix it. Now whats wrong with that?

SundaySilence

jlew24asu wrote:

hey ghandi , I dont like it either. I just see the reality of the situation. its not my "vantage point" in thinking that its ok to go to war for oil. but its a resource that needs to be protected from the control of a single evil dictator. I would never support a war to protect oil. but lets we leave Iraq today, Iran invades and takes over the country. then they march over the desert and take over saudi arabia. oil prices go to $120 a barrel. all world economies go into recession. Iran mass kills anyone who isnt the right sect of Islam.

should something be done?

Reality? I find this absurd. Certainly Iran may send materials and political influence, but going into Iraq would leave them to inherit the mess and fight. Surely they see our troubles, and remember the waste last time they fought Iraq.

Concerning the oil, we simply have to start somewhere and things like $5.00 gas might be a boon in the long run. We need to conserve and we need to switch over as soon as possible and $5.00 gas (which I am not predicting, others will continue shipping similar quantities because they will not get in a fight) would contribute to conservation and a quicker switchover from oil to other things.

SundaySilence

Last Exodus wrote:

Now that we voted wrong, and have destabilized the whole fucking world with our choices, we have to fix it. We have an obligation to fix the country and the region WE fucked up. Now that has nothing to do with oil. We have to stay until the shit is fixed. We Americans don't run. Especially when we fucked up. We gotta stay and fix it. Now whats wrong with that?

While it is not a good plan, an immediate pullout is the plan that Bush could fuck up the least.