its easier to be trained as a police officer then a structural engineer.
Iraq has (and in some cases "had") quite a few buildings, bridges, and other structures. Who built those? Are you saying there are no skilled laborers left in Iraq? They're not helpless, you know.
great idea. so you want the american government to fund Iraqi start up companies? how bout the Iraqi government do that instead.
I would rather the American government fund Iraqi start-up companies than fund an ongoing, endless conflict. As for the Iraqi government funding it, I think they're going to need to build up some of that generational wealth and a nice strong tax-base first.
This plan is a disaster.....legislating a war doesn't work. All the enemy has to do is hold out until the time period has run, and then declare victory. All this plan will do is cause the death of many more Americans. Whether we like it or not, we have determined enemies in Iraq, not all of which are Iraqi. There are substantial al qaeda elements there still. You dont think that if this legislation passes, or is even threatened, that it won't cause them to try to up the ante by killing more Americans? Cmon now. Dont be that naive. Cutting and running will kill any hope of maitaining any amount of prestige in the region, and we still have allies there who need us to stabilize Iraq and not cede it to Iran. Thats just the playing field as it exists. It sucks. But thats all we got
I suppose you're more informed and analytical than the Iraq Study Group? Damn, and I thought I was arrogant.
just wish you can back up your statements instead of ending them with "america sucks can you see that"
I back my statements up just fine and don't rely on the cliche of calling people 'america haters' when you have nothing.
You're just simply saying the way things are going is fine by you even when it's proven to be a disaster. I say they've had long enough to prove themselves and now it's time to replace them with someone who is willing to do the job right....and not just shove money in their pockets.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
...
That's not my plan... that's just a probable outcome scenario based upon the realities that are inplay today.
My plan would be to drawn down troops from Iraq to Afghanistan after we set up Afghanistan (and/or NATO Ally Turkey) as the forward base of operations, not Iraq. From that vantage point, we would still be able to project our military power, but without direct involvement in Iraq itself.
We are currently trainning Iraqis as foot soldiers, but what about logistic support, command and control, medical support and weapons appropriations? I would ask out NATO Allies to help us with this and ween ourselves out of this burden and train he Iraqis to take over these tasks as well and the basic soldiering. We also need to address air support. Right now, it is all U.S. air power over there. At some point, the Iraqis will need air support to become self-reliant.
We need to get the Arab Nations to take ownership of their neighborhood, also. If they do not want refugees fleeing a Civil War flowing across their borders, they had better get involved with stabilizing the place. That would be my arguement to them.
Turn over all reconstruction to the Iraqis. Get the foriegn contractors out of there. Give the contracts to Arab companies and hire Iraqi men to do the work.
And if Syria and Iran can broker peace over there... who are we to stop them?
...
You still have no idea what to do or what can be done... we knew going in what the probable outcome would be... an Iran/Iraq Shi'ite block... but, we pinned all of our hopes on a roses and kisses for our troops scenario. You often say, "We are there... let's win it". but never try to offer anything but, words like Victory and Stability. I'm just pointing out that stability may not equate to victory based upon your interpretations of which each term means.
sorry I got bored
...............
after your first few sentences
....
leave Iraq and go to Afghanistan. I'm all for it. lets go.
I worry about even saying that because they already think we have to train their police and military 4 years plus +. It might be another decade of stalling if we wait on getting these set up. But I do think it's a good idea and works well with the get out now and let them clean up our mess plan. I can only see us causing more damage the longer we stay.
I don't really think Iraq is completely devoid of educated individuals capable of running construction companies. I imagine there's not really much training necessary.
I back my statements up just fine and don't rely on the cliche of calling people 'america haters' when you have nothing.
You're just simply saying the way things are going is fine by you even when it's proven to be a disaster. I say they've had long enough to prove themselves and now it's time to replace them with someone who is willing to do the job right....and not just shove money in their pockets.
I asked you why american contractors should leave and who would do it better.
your answer was I dont know im not an elected official. good back up.
Cutting and running in the Gulf could very well mean de-stabilizing the entire global economy. What happens if we just slip out in a year or so, and Iran comes into Iraq and grabs the Iraqi oil fields and closes the Staights of Hormuz? We'd just have to come back again. We'd have no choice.
I asked you why american contractors should leave and who would do it better.
your answer was I dont know im not an elected official. good back up.
I addressed why. Asking me exactly who is simply trying to avoid the point of how the US contractors have failed and need to be replaced. You act as if there is no one else who could possibly do the job. So your solution is to just keep things going as they are now?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I addressed why. Asking me exactly who is simply trying to avoid the point of how the US contractors have failed and need to be replaced. You act as if there is no one else who could possibly do the job. So your solution is to just keep things going as they are now?
the only thing that has failed in Iraq is the war strategy.
how have US contrators failed? they havent. you just want them out so they (american companies) dont profit. but you are perfectly fine with another country profiting. hence my previous comment
sorry I got bored
...............
after your first few sentences
....
leave Iraq and go to Afghanistan. I'm all for it. lets go.
...
That's okay. You consistantly prove the emptiness of you opinions... this is no exception. I'll state it in terms that you may be able to understand.
...
STAY COURSE, NO GOOD. COURSE LEAD TO DEEPER SWAMP. NO GOOD.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Now if your leader could fully admit this I would feel somewhat better at night...instead of hearing bullshit justifications.....thank-you for the honest answer....and I mean that....
...
That's okay. You consistantly prove the emptiness of you opinions... this is no exception. I'll state it in terms that you may be able to understand.
...
STAY COURSE, NO GOOD. COURSE LEAD TO DEEPER SWAMP. NO GOOD.
the only thing that has failed in Iraq is the war strategy.
how have US contrators failed? they havent. you just want them out so they (american companies) dont profit. but you are perfectly fine with another country profiting. hence my previous comment
How have they done their job? The place is a shithole. If you think they've done their job then there is no where to go from here but
to disagree.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Now if your leader could fully admit this I would feel somewhat better at night...instead of hearing bullshit justifications.....thank-you for the honest answer....and I mean that....
it has been mentioned and is obvious. its partly the reason why we went after saddam in the first gulf war. he wanted to dominate the middle east. his next target was saudi arabia.
now we cant have Iran contol the middle east. if we left Iraq today or maybe 2 years ago they would
it has been mentioned and is obvious. its partly the reason why we went after saddam in the first gulf war. he wanted to dominate the middle east. his next target was saudi arabia.
now we cant have Iran contol the middle east. if we left Iraq today or maybe 2 years ago they would
I just have a real tough time seeing your viewpoint...and instead of name-calling (which you have not done please do not get me wrong) I am doing my best to really take a look at your vantage point....but as an individual I find it very disturbing that force is used to take another countries natural resource...and if that is indeed the primary reason (which can be stacked upon lesser reasons) it really bothers me a as person.
I tend to view it as completly wrong that has lead not only to civilian deaths but to those of your country-men....plus it shows me that America (under current administration) will stop at nothing to do things their way....you see this is why I sympathize with those in the area of Middle East (and not those strapping bombs to their chests....that is absurd but not the topic at hand) because there lives are being destroyed for a country thousands of miles away need for oil....when if this is indeed a free world (that your adminstration tries to "spread") they should have the right to dictate their policy in their natural resources....just shows me that the current American government chooses not to fight fair...if you want to take down a terrorist organization in Afghanistan I understand....but to simply strong arm your way to control a natural resource is nothing short of shelfish and arrogant.....
I think that their are better ways to keep the oil flowing to your pumps...one that unfrotunately could increase prices but not at the price of your citizens blood....I for one would never want to re-look my life as dying for oil....I feel sorry for those fighting over there if this is the primary reason...makes any heroic and helpful action look mundane...which is very very unfortunate....
Who are you a fan of? I'm not a fan of the same old shit that's been going on since this war started and I'm going to support someone is against it too...not just kinda against it, or for a more watered down version of it to appease voters.
I haven't decided yet. I'm a fan of staying until Iraq can police and protect itself. I'm not a fan of passing the buck of a problem we started to someone else, (turning it over to the UN). I'm also a fan of someone who will continue to provide the funds necessary to make sure soldiers have good equipment and to contractors/military personel who are rebuilding Iraq's infastructure. I'm a fan of that person.
I just have a real tough time seeing your viewpoint...and instead of name-calling I am doing my best to really take a look at your vantage point....but as an individual I find it very disturbing that force is used to take another countries natural resource...and if that is indeed the primary reason (which can be stacked upon lesser reasons) it really bothers me a as person.
I tend to view it as completly wrong that has lead not only to civilian deaths but to those of your country-men....plus it shows me that America (under current administration) will stop at nothing to do things their way....you see this is why I sympathize with those in the area of Middle East (and not those strapping bombs to their chests....that is absurd but not the topic at hand) because there lives are being destroyed for a country thousands of miles away need for oil....when if this is indeed a free world (that your adminstration tries to "spread") they should have the right to dictate their policy in their natural resources....just shows me that the current American government chooses not to fight fair...if you want to take down a terrorist organization in Afghanistan I understand....but to simply strong arm your way to control a natural resourse is nothing short of shelfish and arrogant.....
I think that their are better ways to keep the oil flowing to your pumps...one that unfrotunately could increase prices but not at the price of your citizens blood....I for one would never want to re-look my life as dying for oil....I feel sorry for those fighting over there if this is the primary reason...makes any heroic and helpful action look mundane...which is very very unfortunate....
hey ghandi , I dont like it either. I just see the reality of the situation. its not my "vantage point" in thinking that its ok to go to war for oil. but its a resource that needs to be protected from the control of a single evil dictator. I would never support a war to protect oil. but lets we leave Iraq today, Iran invades and takes over the country. then they march over the desert and take over saudi arabia. oil prices go to $120 a barrel. all world economies go into recession. Iran mass kills anyone who isnt the right sect of Islam.
hey ghandi, I dont like it either. I just see the reality of the situation. its not my "vantage point" in thinking that its ok to go to war for oil. but its a resource that needs to be protected from the control of a single evil dictator. I would never support a war to protect oil. but lets we leave Iraq today, Iran invades and takes over the country. then they march over the desert and take over saudi arabia. oil prices go to $120 a barrel. all world economies go into recession. Iran mass kills anyone who isnt the right sect of Islam.
should something be done?
Who has Iran attacked lately...the only country doing the attacking is the USA....should I view you as evil....also prices of oil went up after you attached Iraq...should I also blame the USA as well....I won't just saying Iran has yet done any action to say it is brutal regime...the next brutal regime in the area is Saudi Arabia who if human rights was the primary reason for being in Iraq then you should have attacked them yesterday....yet you don't...please don't pretend America distances itself from brutal regimes...they hold the hands of many.....they just deal with those that abide to their every waking wish.....
I am sorry I view the world as a place for everyone...not a sand-box where I can pillage to make my life easier....
...the only country doing the attacking is the USA....should I view you as evil....also prices of oil went up after you attached Iraq...should I also blame the USA as well
Iraq war (for going) big mistake, I agree. staying, that different.
Anyhow just saying that I cannot fathom the understanding that it is okay to fight another nation for their natural resources....just cannot bend my mind around how some can see the justificaiton of it...to me it seems some people place their life on a higher plane than those in other places....where I tend to see everyone as equal.....regardless of where you come from....
I suppose you're more informed and analytical than the Iraq Study Group? Damn, and I thought I was arrogant.
Endless war.
I didnt say I was. But the Iraq study group was just 3 politcos with an agenda. I did not say endless war. I said that legislating war is a bad idea. You missed the popint entirely.
of course it's about oil. and if you think for a second that the United States is the only one who needs arabian oil you are kidding yourself. unlike Europe, this country does have at least some ability to produce oil. not enough. but countries like FRANCE, Germany, Japan, Australia, and on and on, also depend on Persian Gulf oil.
I did not say this was a good thing. I think we need to kick the oil habit asap. But it's not happening tommorow. This is called real politik. Or in other words, it sucks, but that's life.
Comments
I would rather the American government fund Iraqi start-up companies than fund an ongoing, endless conflict. As for the Iraqi government funding it, I think they're going to need to build up some of that generational wealth and a nice strong tax-base first.
Endless war.
I back my statements up just fine and don't rely on the cliche of calling people 'america haters' when you have nothing.
You're just simply saying the way things are going is fine by you even when it's proven to be a disaster. I say they've had long enough to prove themselves and now it's time to replace them with someone who is willing to do the job right....and not just shove money in their pockets.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
sorry I got bored
...............
after your first few sentences
....
leave Iraq and go to Afghanistan. I'm all for it. lets go.
I asked you why american contractors should leave and who would do it better.
your answer was I dont know im not an elected official. good back up.
Why no choice?
Because you would not control the oil?
If not then why?
I addressed why. Asking me exactly who is simply trying to avoid the point of how the US contractors have failed and need to be replaced. You act as if there is no one else who could possibly do the job. So your solution is to just keep things going as they are now?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
you do realize we need that oil.
Then say what you mean on why we can't leave and drop all the bullshit.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
the only thing that has failed in Iraq is the war strategy.
how have US contrators failed? they havent. you just want them out so they (american companies) dont profit. but you are perfectly fine with another country profiting. hence my previous comment
That's okay. You consistantly prove the emptiness of you opinions... this is no exception. I'll state it in terms that you may be able to understand.
...
STAY COURSE, NO GOOD. COURSE LEAD TO DEEPER SWAMP. NO GOOD.
Hail, Hail!!!
its partly the reason. not the only one. I have never claimed otherwise.
Now if your leader could fully admit this I would feel somewhat better at night...instead of hearing bullshit justifications.....thank-you for the honest answer....and I mean that....
I
...
dont
...
want
...
to
...
stay
...
the
...
course
How have they done their job? The place is a shithole. If you think they've done their job then there is no where to go from here but
to disagree.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
it has been mentioned and is obvious. its partly the reason why we went after saddam in the first gulf war. he wanted to dominate the middle east. his next target was saudi arabia.
now we cant have Iran contol the middle east. if we left Iraq today or maybe 2 years ago they would
how? becuase shit is getting done. schools are being built, electricty is more then pre-war levels http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/electricity.html
oil production (which is important for Iraq) has passed pre war levels.
http://zfacts.com/p/58.html
I posted the story of a contractor that finished billions in work.
how do you know the place is a shithole? have you been there? its a country at war. any rebuilding will be positive.
but with no proof, you say they failed.
I just have a real tough time seeing your viewpoint...and instead of name-calling (which you have not done please do not get me wrong) I am doing my best to really take a look at your vantage point....but as an individual I find it very disturbing that force is used to take another countries natural resource...and if that is indeed the primary reason (which can be stacked upon lesser reasons) it really bothers me a as person.
I tend to view it as completly wrong that has lead not only to civilian deaths but to those of your country-men....plus it shows me that America (under current administration) will stop at nothing to do things their way....you see this is why I sympathize with those in the area of Middle East (and not those strapping bombs to their chests....that is absurd but not the topic at hand) because there lives are being destroyed for a country thousands of miles away need for oil....when if this is indeed a free world (that your adminstration tries to "spread") they should have the right to dictate their policy in their natural resources....just shows me that the current American government chooses not to fight fair...if you want to take down a terrorist organization in Afghanistan I understand....but to simply strong arm your way to control a natural resource is nothing short of shelfish and arrogant.....
I think that their are better ways to keep the oil flowing to your pumps...one that unfrotunately could increase prices but not at the price of your citizens blood....I for one would never want to re-look my life as dying for oil....I feel sorry for those fighting over there if this is the primary reason...makes any heroic and helpful action look mundane...which is very very unfortunate....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXATMnerBjI
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I haven't decided yet. I'm a fan of staying until Iraq can police and protect itself. I'm not a fan of passing the buck of a problem we started to someone else, (turning it over to the UN). I'm also a fan of someone who will continue to provide the funds necessary to make sure soldiers have good equipment and to contractors/military personel who are rebuilding Iraq's infastructure. I'm a fan of that person.
hey ghandi
should something be done?
I thought we were talking about contractors who are rebuilding Iraq.
stop pretending to care if the soldiers are well fed.
Who has Iran attacked lately...the only country doing the attacking is the USA....should I view you as evil....also prices of oil went up after you attached Iraq...should I also blame the USA as well....I won't just saying Iran has yet done any action to say it is brutal regime...the next brutal regime in the area is Saudi Arabia who if human rights was the primary reason for being in Iraq then you should have attacked them yesterday....yet you don't...please don't pretend America distances itself from brutal regimes...they hold the hands of many.....they just deal with those that abide to their every waking wish.....
I am sorry I view the world as a place for everyone...not a sand-box where I can pillage to make my life easier....
Iraq war (for going) big mistake, I agree. staying, that different.
So the USA did not attack Iraq?
We were. The point is if they don't even care about our own troops, why do you think they give a shit about the Iraqi people.
Why would I not care about them?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I didnt say I was. But the Iraq study group was just 3 politcos with an agenda. I did not say endless war. I said that legislating war is a bad idea. You missed the popint entirely.
of course it's about oil. and if you think for a second that the United States is the only one who needs arabian oil you are kidding yourself. unlike Europe, this country does have at least some ability to produce oil. not enough. but countries like FRANCE, Germany, Japan, Australia, and on and on, also depend on Persian Gulf oil.
I did not say this was a good thing. I think we need to kick the oil habit asap. But it's not happening tommorow. This is called real politik. Or in other words, it sucks, but that's life.