Ankle-biting Democrats

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  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    jlew24asu wrote:
    victory means having a stable democracy and no presense of el queda or foreign fighters.
    A "stable" democracy, maybe (though a democratic Iraq probably won't be friendly to U.S. interests - so I believe what the administration really means is - ahem - "democracy." Note the quotes). But there are likely al queda or "foreign fighters" here in the U.S. When you say "no presense" do you mean literally? How can you be sure when we reach that point? What would prohibit the Iraqi forces from handling them after we've gone?

    These kinds of ideas wax a nice shine on the stage that's been set for endless war.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    RainDog wrote:
    A "stable" democracy, maybe (though a democratic Iraq probably won't be friendly to U.S. interests - so I believe what the administration really means is - ahem - "democracy." Note the quotes). But there are likely al queda or "foreign fighters" here in the U.S. When you say "no presense" do you mean literally? How can you be sure when we reach that point? What would prohibit the Iraqi forces from handling them after we've gone?

    These kinds of ideas wax a nice shine on the stage that's been set for endless war.


    there are foreign fighters here? when was the last suicide bomb? you lost me.

    yes i mean literally. maybe it will never be at 100% but enough to the point where it resembles say Jordan? or Kuwait?
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    jlew24asu wrote:
    victory means having a stable democracy and no presense of el queda or foreign fighters.

    They can build a democracy without us funding the war. You'll never be able to control foreign fighters. They are there because of our presense and the best thing we can do for that is to leave.
    jlew24asu wrote:
    yea but who will be the peacekeepers? not the UN. they wont do.

    If they are keeping the peace I don't care who they are....the UN or whomever. It's clear you have a knee jerk reaction to anything UN so there is really nowhere to go from here excpet to disagree.
    jlew24asu wrote:
    people who get paid. if you want to kick out US contractors, some out nation will move in and profit. how do you know we arent making progress in rebuilding?

    I just want whoever the contractors may be to be honest and be held accountable for their wrongdoings...not the usual whitewash and coverups we've became so accustomed to these days.

    Because the place is horrible from all I've seen. Maybe you're reading and seeing different things.
    jlew24asu wrote:
    who are these people you speak of?

    I'm sorry, I haven't had a chance to interview all the applicants from the ad I put in the paper. I wouldn't be in a place to hire these people or hold them accountable.
    jlew24asu wrote:
    no I havent noticed. care to prove it?

    I'm not doing your homework for you. You guys hate cut and paste jobs anyway. If you're really interested, look it up for yourself, slacker. :p
    jlew24asu wrote:
    yea lets do it. whatever it takes. i'm on board.

    Fabulous!!
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    RainDog wrote:
    These kinds of ideas wax a nice shine on the stage that's been set for endless war.

    Bingo!!
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    jlew24asu wrote:
    there are foreign fighters here? when was the last suicide bomb? you lost me.

    yes i mean literally. maybe it will never be at 100% but enough to the point where it resembles say Jordan? or Kuwait?
    I could be wrong, but I believe Jordan and Kuwait are a little more culturally unified. They're also monarchies.

    And many of the suicide bombers aren't foreign.


    endless war

    .
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    jlew24asu wrote:
    there are foreign fighters here? when was the last suicide bomb? you lost me.
    So here they run drugs instead of Islam. They're still foreign, they still kill people, they're very organized, and we can't seem to keep them out.

    Stack religious fundamentalism on top of boarders on four sides and you really think we can acheive the goal of "no foreign fighters" on a country half way around the globe?
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    I am all for this war to be over and have all of our troops home. before that happens we need to train the Iraqi military, secure the streets, and find a way (ok lets "fund" a way abook) to bring the 3 sides together peacefully.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    RainDog wrote:
    So here they run drugs instead of Islam. They're still foreign, they still kill people, they're very organized, and we can't seem to keep them out.
    still dont know who your talking about.
    RainDog wrote:
    Stack religious fundamentalism on top of boarders on four sides and you really think we can acheive the goal of "no foreign fighters" on a country half way around the globe?

    yup
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    jlew24asu wrote:
    yup

    How?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • The Illinoisemakers
    The Illinoisemakers Posts: 461
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    The Kucinich Plan to End the War in Iraq includes the following:

    1. Congress must deny more funds for the war.
    2. The President will have to call the troops home, close the bases, and end the occupation.
    3. Initiate a parallel peace process which brings in international peace keepers.
    4. Move in the international peace keeping and security force and move out U.S. troops. Peacekeepers will stay until the Iraqis are able to handle their own security.
    5. Order U.S. contractors out of Iraq.
    6. Fund an honest process of reconstruction.
    7. Protect the economic position of the Iraqi people by stabilizing prices in Iraq, including those for food and energy.
    8. Create a process which gives the Iraqi people control over their economic destiny without the structural adjustment policies of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.
    9. Give the Iraqi people full control over their oil assets, with no mandatory privatization.
    10. Fund a process of reconciliation between the Shias, Sunnis and Kurds.
    11. The U.S. must refrain from any covert operation in Iraq.
    12. The U.S. must begin a process of truth and reconciliation between our nation and the people of Iraq.

    And this is exaclty why Kucinich will never be President. Ideas 3 & 4, who are the international peace keepers that are going to rush into Iraq to provide security? Who is going to continue the reconstruciton effort if all US contractors are forced out? This whole list sucks. I'm no Biden fan, but his plan is a million times better, and actually realistic.
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I am all for this war to be over and have all of our troops home. before that happens we need to train the Iraqi military, secure the streets, and find a way (ok lets "fund" a way abook) to bring the 3 sides together peacefully.
    Once we secure the streets to everyone's satisfaction, won't the argument then be "we can't leave 'cause we're the ones securing the streets"?

    I'm all for bringing the three sides together peacefully, too. It's been many centuries. Think we're up to the task - when we're likely as hated as they hate each other?
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    jlew24asu wrote:
    there are foreign fighters here? when was the last suicide bomb? you lost me.

    yes i mean literally. maybe it will never be at 100% but enough to the point where it resembles say Jordan? or Kuwait?
    ...
    It is more than likely that a "stable Iraq" will be a Shi'ite run theocracy that resembles Iran, not Kuwait.
    The 60%+ Majority in Iraq is going to take over, that is a given. In a free election... 60% beats 20% or 20% every time. And the majority is likely to grow with the abolishment of Saddam Hussein's immigration quota of 300 Shi'ites per year.
    There's a reason Al Sadr fled to Iran. That is his base... his hero is Ayatollah Khomeni. He doesn't want to get swept up in the crack-down... time is on his side... the Americans HAVE to leave at some point... they cannot stay in Iraq forever.
    A trainned and armed Shi'ite lead fundamentalist theocracy with free elections in Iraq can be somewhat stable... with a little ethnic cleansing here and there... is that what you mean by 'Victory'? Or is victory only defined when it suits the wishes of the U.S?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    How?
    secure the borders. train a police and military force. the hard part is getting sunnis and shiites together for peace. I think the best way is to go to the religious leaders and have them call for peace. sit in a goddamn room and talk it out. each side wants something. find out what it is and deal with it.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    The Illinoisemakers wrote:
    And this is exaclty why Kucinich will never be President. Ideas 3 & 4, who are the international peace keepers that are going to rush into Iraq to provide security? Who is going to continue the reconstruciton effort if all US contractors are forced out? This whole list sucks. I'm no Biden fan, but his plan is a million times better, and actually realistic.


    Who are you a fan of? I'm not a fan of the same old shit that's been going on since this war started and I'm going to support someone is against it too...not just kinda against it, or for a more watered down version of it to appease voters.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    RainDog wrote:
    Once we secure the streets to everyone's satisfaction, won't the argument then be "we can't leave 'cause we're the ones securing the streets"?
    no we turn it over to the Iraqi police/military force.
    RainDog wrote:
    I'm all for bringing the three sides together peacefully, too. It's been many centuries. Think we're up to the task - when we're likely as hated as they hate each other?

    we arent hated by all. I have read many stories where Iraqis come up to soldiers and thank them. and yes I think we are up to the task
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    jlew24asu wrote:
    still dont know who your talking about.
    Drug smugglers, jlew. We found a way to keep them out yet?
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    jlew24asu wrote:
    secure the borders.

    How do you keep them secure?
    jlew24asu wrote:
    train a police and military force.

    Geez....we've been there for 4 years. How long is this going to take?
    jlew24asu wrote:
    the hard part is getting sunnis and shiites together for peace. I think the best way is to go to the religious leaders and have them call for peace. sit in a goddamn room and talk it out. each side wants something. find out what it is and deal with it.

    Each side wants power over the other. How is funding this war going to get them any closer to a diplomatic solution?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    It is more than likely that a "stable Iraq" will be a Shi'ite run theocracy that resembles Iran, not Kuwait.
    The 60%+ Majority in Iraq is going to take over, that is a given. In a free election... 60% beats 20% or 20% every time. And the majority is likely to grow with the abolishment of Saddam Hussein's immigration quota of 300 Shi'ites per year.
    There's a reason Al Sadr fled to Iran. That is his base... his hero is Ayatollah Khomeni. He doesn't want to get swept up in the crack-down... time is on his side... the Americans HAVE to leave at some point... they cannot stay in Iraq forever.
    A trainned and armed Shi'ite lead fundamentalist theocracy with free elections in Iraq can be somewhat stable... with a little ethnic cleansing here and there... is that what you mean by 'Victory'? Or is victory only defined when it suits the wished of the U.S?


    you enjoy hearing yourself talk dont you?
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    How do you keep them secure?
    with the Iraqi military
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Geez....we've been there for 4 years. How long is this going to take?
    how long did you think it will take 90 days? its done when its done
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Each side wants power over the other. How is funding this war going to get them any closer to a diplomatic solution?
    I thought you wanted to "fund" a solution
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    jlew24asu wrote:
    no we turn it over to the Iraqi police/military force.
    I suppose we'll see. I believe that if this administration gets its way, we won't be leaving there anytime soon.

    And I've been right about everything regarding this war. So I'll trust my judgement.


    jlew24asu wrote:
    we arent hated by all. I have read many stories where Iraqis come up to soldiers and thank them. and yes I think we are up to the task
    And I've read many stories where Iraqis come up to soldiers and blow themselves up. That's some strong hatred. No, it's not all - but I don't think we're the right people for the job - anymore than I think the King of England would have been a good member of the Continental Congress.

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