I am all for this war to be over and have all of our troops home. before that happens we need to train the Iraqi military, secure the streets, and find a way (ok lets "fund" a way abook) to bring the 3 sides together peacefully.
Once we secure the streets to everyone's satisfaction, won't the argument then be "we can't leave 'cause we're the ones securing the streets"?
I'm all for bringing the three sides together peacefully, too. It's been many centuries. Think we're up to the task - when we're likely as hated as they hate each other?
there are foreign fighters here? when was the last suicide bomb? you lost me.
yes i mean literally. maybe it will never be at 100% but enough to the point where it resembles say Jordan? or Kuwait?
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It is more than likely that a "stable Iraq" will be a Shi'ite run theocracy that resembles Iran, not Kuwait.
The 60%+ Majority in Iraq is going to take over, that is a given. In a free election... 60% beats 20% or 20% every time. And the majority is likely to grow with the abolishment of Saddam Hussein's immigration quota of 300 Shi'ites per year.
There's a reason Al Sadr fled to Iran. That is his base... his hero is Ayatollah Khomeni. He doesn't want to get swept up in the crack-down... time is on his side... the Americans HAVE to leave at some point... they cannot stay in Iraq forever.
A trainned and armed Shi'ite lead fundamentalist theocracy with free elections in Iraq can be somewhat stable... with a little ethnic cleansing here and there... is that what you mean by 'Victory'? Or is victory only defined when it suits the wishes of the U.S?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
secure the borders. train a police and military force. the hard part is getting sunnis and shiites together for peace. I think the best way is to go to the religious leaders and have them call for peace. sit in a goddamn room and talk it out. each side wants something. find out what it is and deal with it.
And this is exaclty why Kucinich will never be President. Ideas 3 & 4, who are the international peace keepers that are going to rush into Iraq to provide security? Who is going to continue the reconstruciton effort if all US contractors are forced out? This whole list sucks. I'm no Biden fan, but his plan is a million times better, and actually realistic.
Who are you a fan of? I'm not a fan of the same old shit that's been going on since this war started and I'm going to support someone is against it too...not just kinda against it, or for a more watered down version of it to appease voters.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'm all for bringing the three sides together peacefully, too. It's been many centuries. Think we're up to the task - when we're likely as hated as they hate each other?
we arent hated by all. I have read many stories where Iraqis come up to soldiers and thank them. and yes I think we are up to the task
the hard part is getting sunnis and shiites together for peace. I think the best way is to go to the religious leaders and have them call for peace. sit in a goddamn room and talk it out. each side wants something. find out what it is and deal with it.
Each side wants power over the other. How is funding this war going to get them any closer to a diplomatic solution?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
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It is more than likely that a "stable Iraq" will be a Shi'ite run theocracy that resembles Iran, not Kuwait.
The 60%+ Majority in Iraq is going to take over, that is a given. In a free election... 60% beats 20% or 20% every time. And the majority is likely to grow with the abolishment of Saddam Hussein's immigration quota of 300 Shi'ites per year.
There's a reason Al Sadr fled to Iran. That is his base... his hero is Ayatollah Khomeni. He doesn't want to get swept up in the crack-down... time is on his side... the Americans HAVE to leave at some point... they cannot stay in Iraq forever.
A trainned and armed Shi'ite lead fundamentalist theocracy with free elections in Iraq can be somewhat stable... with a little ethnic cleansing here and there... is that what you mean by 'Victory'? Or is victory only defined when it suits the wished of the U.S?
we arent hated by all. I have read many stories where Iraqis come up to soldiers and thank them. and yes I think we are up to the task
And I've read many stories where Iraqis come up to soldiers and blow themselves up. That's some strong hatred. No, it's not all - but I don't think we're the right people for the job - anymore than I think the King of England would have been a good member of the Continental Congress.
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Just trying to figure out HOW you think your Victory is going to happen.. that's all. HOW is a Shi'ite majority... an overwhelming and growing Shi'ite majority going to look like the Sunni style Kuwait or Jordan? How is that going to happen.
From your response... it sounds like HOPE is your solution. You HOPE they end up like this. Apparently, from your response... that seems to be all you can muster. You HOPE it works out. Great plan, bud.
I'm trying to figure out what it's going to look like based upon today's realities and probable outcomes.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
how long did you think it will take 90 days? its done when its done
Not 90 days but c'mon, 4 years???? That makes no sense. People get college degrees in four years and you're saying these guys can't be trained to protect themselves in this time? It's just a scapegoat issue to prolong our presense in Iraq indefinitely.
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Just trying to figure out HOW you think your Victory is going to happen.. that's all. HOW is a Shi'ite majority... an overwhelming and growing Shi'ite majority going to look like the Sunni style Kuwait or Jordan? How is that going to happen.
From your response... it sounds like HOPE is your solution. You HOPE they end up like this. Apparently, from your response... that seems to be all you can muster. You HOPE it works out. Great plan, bud.
I'm trying to figure out what it's going to look like based upon today's realities and probable outcomes.
Not 90 days but c'mon, 4 years???? That makes no sense. People get college degrees in four years and you're saying these guys can't be trained to protect themselves in this time? It's just a scapegoat issue to prolong our presense in Iraq indefinitely.
great. what is the difference between spending money on stability or spending it on war?
Fixing the place, making it livable for the Iraqi people. It's rubble and chaos now. We're shooting at these people left and right because we can't tell who the enemy is. Bombing the place any further will not bring much stability.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Fixing the place, making it livable for the Iraqi people. It's rubble and chaos now. We're shooting at these people left and right because we can't tell who the enemy is. Bombing the place any further will not bring much stability.
now i'm confused. I thought you wanted all contractors out.
whos going to fix the place? Iraqis cant do it by themselves.
now i'm confused. I thought you wanted all contractors out.
whos going to fix the place? Iraqis cant do it by themselves.
If they can't fix the place, how are they going to secure it?
Why not fund start-up Iraqi construction companies? Then, they get their country rebuilt, they get jobs, incomes, homes, and perhaps some private generational wealth. If it's done by American companies, the wealth mostly comes here. I mean, I like money as much as the next guy, but don't you think that for the stability of Iraq, some local companies would help?
It's not my job to go out and find them. What do you think I do, call people up and interview them and then send in my recommendations? I'm not an elected official jlew, no matter how highly you may regard me.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Why not fund start-up Iraqi construction companies? Then, they get their country rebuilt, they get jobs, incomes, homes, and perhaps some private generational wealth. If it's done by American companies, the wealth mostly comes here. I mean, I like money as much as the next guy, but don't you think that for the stability of Iraq, some local companies would help?
great idea. so you want the american government to fund Iraqi start up companies? how bout the Iraqi government do that instead.
This plan is a disaster.....legislating a war doesn't work. All the enemy has to do is hold out until the time period has run, and then declare victory. All this plan will do is cause the death of many more Americans. Whether we like it or not, we have determined enemies in Iraq, not all of which are Iraqi. There are substantial al qaeda elements there still. You dont think that if this legislation passes, or is even threatened, that it won't cause them to try to up the ante by killing more Americans? Cmon now. Dont be that naive. Cutting and running will kill any hope of maitaining any amount of prestige in the region, and we still have allies there who need us to stabilize Iraq and not cede it to Iran. Thats just the playing field as it exists. It sucks. But thats all we got
If they can't fix the place, how are they going to secure it?
Why not fund start-up Iraqi construction companies? Then, they get their country rebuilt, they get jobs, incomes, homes, and perhaps some private generational wealth. If it's done by American companies, the wealth mostly comes here. I mean, I like money as much as the next guy, but don't you think that for the stability of Iraq, some local companies would help?
I worry about even saying that because they already think we have to train their police and military 4 years plus +. It might be another decade of stalling if we wait on getting these set up. But I do think it's a good idea and works well with the get out now and let them clean up our mess plan. I can only see us causing more damage the longer we stay.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
It's not my job to go out and find them. What do you think I do, call people up and interview them and then send in my recommendations? I'm not an elected official jlew, no matter how highly you may regard me.
hehe. well you seem to believe someone can do a better job then the US at rebuilding. I disagree.
I worry about even saying that because they already think we have to train their police and military 4 years plus +. It might be another decade of stalling if we wait on getting these set up. But I do think it's a good idea and works well with the get out now and let them clean up our mess plan. I can only see us causing more damage the longer we stay.
Cutting and running in the Gulf could very well mean de-stabilizing the entire global economy. What happens if we just slip out in a year or so, and Iran comes into Iraq and grabs the Iraqi oil fields and closes the Staights of Hormuz? We'd just have to come back again. We'd have no choice.
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That's not my plan... that's just a probable outcome scenario based upon the realities that are inplay today.
My plan would be to drawn down troops from Iraq to Afghanistan after we set up Afghanistan (and/or NATO Ally Turkey) as the forward base of operations, not Iraq. From that vantage point, we would still be able to project our military power, but without direct involvement in Iraq itself.
We are currently trainning Iraqis as foot soldiers, but what about logistic support, command and control, medical support and weapons appropriations? I would ask out NATO Allies to help us with this and ween ourselves out of this burden and train he Iraqis to take over these tasks as well and the basic soldiering. We also need to address air support. Right now, it is all U.S. air power over there. At some point, the Iraqis will need air support to become self-reliant.
We need to get the Arab Nations to take ownership of their neighborhood, also. If they do not want refugees fleeing a Civil War flowing across their borders, they had better get involved with stabilizing the place. That would be my arguement to them.
Turn over all reconstruction to the Iraqis. Get the foriegn contractors out of there. Give the contracts to Arab companies and hire Iraqi men to do the work.
And if Syria and Iran can broker peace over there... who are we to stop them?
...
You still have no idea what to do or what can be done... we knew going in what the probable outcome would be... an Iran/Iraq Shi'ite block... but, we pinned all of our hopes on a roses and kisses for our troops scenario. You often say, "We are there... let's win it". but never try to offer anything but, words like Victory and Stability. I'm just pointing out that stability may not equate to victory based upon your interpretations of which each term means.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
I'm all for bringing the three sides together peacefully, too. It's been many centuries. Think we're up to the task - when we're likely as hated as they hate each other?
It is more than likely that a "stable Iraq" will be a Shi'ite run theocracy that resembles Iran, not Kuwait.
The 60%+ Majority in Iraq is going to take over, that is a given. In a free election... 60% beats 20% or 20% every time. And the majority is likely to grow with the abolishment of Saddam Hussein's immigration quota of 300 Shi'ites per year.
There's a reason Al Sadr fled to Iran. That is his base... his hero is Ayatollah Khomeni. He doesn't want to get swept up in the crack-down... time is on his side... the Americans HAVE to leave at some point... they cannot stay in Iraq forever.
A trainned and armed Shi'ite lead fundamentalist theocracy with free elections in Iraq can be somewhat stable... with a little ethnic cleansing here and there... is that what you mean by 'Victory'? Or is victory only defined when it suits the wishes of the U.S?
Hail, Hail!!!
Who are you a fan of? I'm not a fan of the same old shit that's been going on since this war started and I'm going to support someone is against it too...not just kinda against it, or for a more watered down version of it to appease voters.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
we arent hated by all. I have read many stories where Iraqis come up to soldiers and thank them. and yes I think we are up to the task
How do you keep them secure?
Geez....we've been there for 4 years. How long is this going to take?
Each side wants power over the other. How is funding this war going to get them any closer to a diplomatic solution?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
you enjoy hearing yourself talk dont you?
how long did you think it will take 90 days? its done when its done
I thought you wanted to "fund" a solution
And I've been right about everything regarding this war. So I'll trust my judgement.
And I've read many stories where Iraqis come up to soldiers and blow themselves up. That's some strong hatred. No, it's not all - but I don't think we're the right people for the job - anymore than I think the King of England would have been a good member of the Continental Congress.
Just trying to figure out HOW you think your Victory is going to happen.. that's all. HOW is a Shi'ite majority... an overwhelming and growing Shi'ite majority going to look like the Sunni style Kuwait or Jordan? How is that going to happen.
From your response... it sounds like HOPE is your solution. You HOPE they end up like this. Apparently, from your response... that seems to be all you can muster. You HOPE it works out. Great plan, bud.
I'm trying to figure out what it's going to look like based upon today's realities and probable outcomes.
Hail, Hail!!!
Good, then we won't have to be there.
Not 90 days but c'mon, 4 years???? That makes no sense. People get college degrees in four years and you're saying these guys can't be trained to protect themselves in this time? It's just a scapegoat issue to prolong our presense in Iraq indefinitely.
I'd like to see funding spent on stability not more war. War is the opposite of stable, my friend.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I hope your plan works out buddy boy
scapegoat issue? so we are stalling?
great. what is the difference between spending money on stability or spending it on war?
Fixing the place, making it livable for the Iraqi people. It's rubble and chaos now. We're shooting at these people left and right because we can't tell who the enemy is. Bombing the place any further will not bring much stability.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
whos going to fix the place? Iraqis cant do it by themselves.
I believe there are more honest and capable options out there.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
such as
Why not fund start-up Iraqi construction companies? Then, they get their country rebuilt, they get jobs, incomes, homes, and perhaps some private generational wealth. If it's done by American companies, the wealth mostly comes here. I mean, I like money as much as the next guy, but don't you think that for the stability of Iraq, some local companies would help?
It's not my job to go out and find them. What do you think I do, call people up and interview them and then send in my recommendations? I'm not an elected official jlew, no matter how highly you may regard me.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
great idea. so you want the american government to fund Iraqi start up companies? how bout the Iraqi government do that instead.
I worry about even saying that because they already think we have to train their police and military 4 years plus +. It might be another decade of stalling if we wait on getting these set up. But I do think it's a good idea and works well with the get out now and let them clean up our mess plan. I can only see us causing more damage the longer we stay.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
hehe. well you seem to believe someone can do a better job then the US at rebuilding. I disagree.
That much is obvious.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Cutting and running in the Gulf could very well mean de-stabilizing the entire global economy. What happens if we just slip out in a year or so, and Iran comes into Iraq and grabs the Iraqi oil fields and closes the Staights of Hormuz? We'd just have to come back again. We'd have no choice.
just wish you can back up your statements instead of ending them with "america sucks can you see that"
That's not my plan... that's just a probable outcome scenario based upon the realities that are inplay today.
My plan would be to drawn down troops from Iraq to Afghanistan after we set up Afghanistan (and/or NATO Ally Turkey) as the forward base of operations, not Iraq. From that vantage point, we would still be able to project our military power, but without direct involvement in Iraq itself.
We are currently trainning Iraqis as foot soldiers, but what about logistic support, command and control, medical support and weapons appropriations? I would ask out NATO Allies to help us with this and ween ourselves out of this burden and train he Iraqis to take over these tasks as well and the basic soldiering. We also need to address air support. Right now, it is all U.S. air power over there. At some point, the Iraqis will need air support to become self-reliant.
We need to get the Arab Nations to take ownership of their neighborhood, also. If they do not want refugees fleeing a Civil War flowing across their borders, they had better get involved with stabilizing the place. That would be my arguement to them.
Turn over all reconstruction to the Iraqis. Get the foriegn contractors out of there. Give the contracts to Arab companies and hire Iraqi men to do the work.
And if Syria and Iran can broker peace over there... who are we to stop them?
...
You still have no idea what to do or what can be done... we knew going in what the probable outcome would be... an Iran/Iraq Shi'ite block... but, we pinned all of our hopes on a roses and kisses for our troops scenario. You often say, "We are there... let's win it". but never try to offer anything but, words like Victory and Stability. I'm just pointing out that stability may not equate to victory based upon your interpretations of which each term means.
Hail, Hail!!!