...
That's okay. You consistantly prove the emptiness of you opinions... this is no exception. I'll state it in terms that you may be able to understand.
...
STAY COURSE, NO GOOD. COURSE LEAD TO DEEPER SWAMP. NO GOOD.
and your option would be RUN FAST SO IRAN CAN CONTROL REGION?
I just have a real tough time seeing your viewpoint...and instead of name-calling (which you have not done please do not get me wrong) I am doing my best to really take a look at your vantage point....but as an individual I find it very disturbing that force is used to take another countries natural resource...and if that is indeed the primary reason (which can be stacked upon lesser reasons) it really bothers me a as person.
I tend to view it as completly wrong that has lead not only to civilian deaths but to those of your country-men....plus it shows me that America (under current administration) will stop at nothing to do things their way....you see this is why I sympathize with those in the area of Middle East (and not those strapping bombs to their chests....that is absurd but not the topic at hand) because there lives are being destroyed for a country thousands of miles away need for oil....when if this is indeed a free world (that your adminstration tries to "spread") they should have the right to dictate their policy in their natural resources....just shows me that the current American government chooses not to fight fair...if you want to take down a terrorist organization in Afghanistan I understand....but to simply strong arm your way to control a natural resource is nothing short of shelfish and arrogant.....
I think that their are better ways to keep the oil flowing to your pumps...one that unfrotunately could increase prices but not at the price of your citizens blood....I for one would never want to re-look my life as dying for oil....I feel sorry for those fighting over there if this is the primary reason...makes any heroic and helpful action look mundane...which is very very unfortunate....
This is a misperception generally drummed up my the Europeans at the start of this war. If you in Canada think this was has in any way been good for this countires oil deposits, come on down and take a look at what a tank of gas costs. Whether George Bush had the Iraqi oil fields in his sights, or just Saddaam is a matter of pure speculation. Personally I think George W is not smart enough to be that diabolical. I think he is simple thinker who truly believed that axis of evil crap. I still think he believes it. I also think it was payback. Saddam tried to have his father killed. I think that made little George lose focus. Of course I dont claim to know. Im just speculating.
hey ghandi , I dont like it either. I just see the reality of the situation. its not my "vantage point" in thinking that its ok to go to war for oil. but its a resource that needs to be protected from the control of a single evil dictator. I would never support a war to protect oil. but lets we leave Iraq today, Iran invades and takes over the country. then they march over the desert and take over saudi arabia. oil prices go to $120 a barrel. all world economies go into recession. Iran mass kills anyone who isnt the right sect of Islam.
should something be done?
Last time I checked most wars are really fought over resources, whether it's land, minerals, air, water, or oil, resources are ALWAYS what war is about. Propoganda is what makes it easier for people to sell war, like slavery, or pearl harbor. Hogwash. Economics. Plain and simple.
Everyone concedes that Iraq has not turned out like we hoped it would. But it's painfully obvious that Democrats (and some Republicans) are now emersed in political posturing based on opinion polls.
They know the majority of Americans oppose the war, and so they are trying to score political points with their constituents by demanding that the war come to an end.
But I haven't heard a cohesive plan from anybody... You hear I'm in favor of a "phased withdrawal" or "bring all the troops home"... but do the problems in the Middle East end there? Of course they don't, which begs the question - then what?
Bring the troops home, and then what? Phased withdrawal and then what?
Nobody wants to talk about what's to come afterwards. Isn't this a bit short-sighted?
For all of his problems and downfalls, Bush's strategy is the only one that deals with the long term. His plan might have a small chance of success, but at least it offers a long term solution if it does prevail. Nobody else can say that, mostly becuase it is something nobody else wants to talk about.
I have all the respect in the world for somebody who doesn't like this war. But I will never understand why people would want us to leave now and abandon a nation in need. If anything, we need to buck up and do the dirty work that needs to be done to secure that country. It isn't beyond our capabilites - it's just beyond our will, which is pathetic.
Everyone concedes that Iraq has not turned out like we hoped it would. But it's painfully obvious that Democrats (and some Republicans) are now emersed in political posturing based on opinion polls.
They know the majority of Americans oppose the war, and so they are trying to score political points with their constituents by demanding that the war come to an end.
But I haven't heard a cohesive plan from anybody... You hear I'm in favor of a "phased withdrawal" or "bring all the troops home"... but do the problems in the Middle East end there? Of course they don't, which begs the question - then what?
Bring the troops home, and then what? Phased withdrawal and then what?
Nobody wants to talk about what's to come afterwards. Isn't this a bit short-sighted?
For all of his problems and downfalls, Bush's strategy is the only one that deals with the long term. His plan might have a small chance of success, but at least it offers a long term solution if it does prevail. Nobody else can say that, mostly becuase it is something nobody else wants to talk about.
I have all the respect in the world for somebody who doesn't like this war. But I will never understand why people would want us to leave now and abandon a nation in need. If anything, we need to buck up and do the dirty work that needs to be done to secure that country. It isn't beyond our capabilites - it's just beyond our will, which is pathetic.
I have a plan.
Congress should lie to the American people and tell them that everything is now great in Iraq and it's ok to come home. If the American people need proof...well...new episodes of Lost are proof that all is right in the world, and questioning this proof would be quite unamerican.
I bet it would work...about as much substance as the lie that got us into this shit at least.
Congress should lie to the American people and tell them that everything is now great in Iraq and it's ok to come home. If the American people need proof...well...new episodes of Lost are proof that all is right in the world, and questioning this proof would be quite unamerican.
I bet it would work...about as much substance as the lie that got us into this shit at least.
Now I know I didn't vote for George Bush. And I ain't buyin that everyone on this board either voted for a democrat or an indepedent in each in every election since 2000. I also bet alot of you just plain didn't vote. I know I didn't in 2000. I was too sickened by my choices that I refused to vote. I was working for Bill Bradley who would have been a fantastic candidate and a brilliant President. When the Dems chose Gore, I was out. I grudgingly cast a vote for Kerry in 04 knowing full well that, again, he was the wrong choice.
The point is, we have the power to choose our leaders. We chose George Bush. Twice. He got us into this mess, but we as voters collaborated by either not voting or voting for the wrong guy. Wrong guy could have been Ralph Nader, or the wrong guy in the primary, or even George Bush. But we voted wrong.
Now that we voted wrong, and have destabilized the whole fucking world with our choices, we have to fix it. We have an obligation to fix the country and the region WE fucked up. Now that has nothing to do with oil. We have to stay until the shit is fixed. We Americans don't run. Especially when we fucked up. We gotta stay and fix it. Now whats wrong with that?
hey ghandi , I dont like it either. I just see the reality of the situation. its not my "vantage point" in thinking that its ok to go to war for oil. but its a resource that needs to be protected from the control of a single evil dictator. I would never support a war to protect oil. but lets we leave Iraq today, Iran invades and takes over the country. then they march over the desert and take over saudi arabia. oil prices go to $120 a barrel. all world economies go into recession. Iran mass kills anyone who isnt the right sect of Islam.
should something be done?
Reality? I find this absurd. Certainly Iran may send materials and political influence, but going into Iraq would leave them to inherit the mess and fight. Surely they see our troubles, and remember the waste last time they fought Iraq.
Concerning the oil, we simply have to start somewhere and things like $5.00 gas might be a boon in the long run. We need to conserve and we need to switch over as soon as possible and $5.00 gas (which I am not predicting, others will continue shipping similar quantities because they will not get in a fight) would contribute to conservation and a quicker switchover from oil to other things.
Now that we voted wrong, and have destabilized the whole fucking world with our choices, we have to fix it. We have an obligation to fix the country and the region WE fucked up. Now that has nothing to do with oil. We have to stay until the shit is fixed. We Americans don't run. Especially when we fucked up. We gotta stay and fix it. Now whats wrong with that?
While it is not a good plan, an immediate pullout is the plan that Bush could fuck up the least.
and your option would be RUN FAST SO IRAN CAN CONTROL REGION?
...
Actually, I believe we NEED to stay because we basically bought the thing when we broke it. I believe we CAN actually succeed... IF... we can get the rest of the world to kick in. It's a tough sell... but, we can start by admitting our wrongdoings and conceding that they were right in their protest of our actions.
From there, we can ask that our NATO Allies help us by taking on the less dangerous tasks, such as border security and security over Iraq's oil assets as well as the trainning of Iraqi security forces, including their officers and logistics support infrastructure. Ask that the neighboring Arab nations kick in and help train the Iraqi police. Ask the European and Pacific Rim nations to do the rebuilding, once security is established. Put the Iraqis to work... doing the actual labor, driving the trucks, manning the bulldozers.
We have to bankroll the whole thing because this is our mess... our responsibility and we are accountable.
It is possible... but, not probable. We will never admit our fault and will always take the weasle's approach of making excuses for our mistakes, instead of owning up to them. We're supposed to be Americans... maybe we should start acting like it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I think you should get back to us when youve thought this through more Cosmo... jk....brilliant plan actually, now why cant one of the dumbasses in office think of a concrete plan to backpeddle us out of this mess.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Everybody's fightin' for the Promise Land.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Wine goes in at the lips
and love comes in at the eye
Thats all we shall know for truth
before we grow old and die..
I lift the glass to my lips
I look at you and sigh."
...
Actually, I believe we NEED to stay because we basically bought the thing when we broke it. I believe we CAN actually succeed... IF... we can get the rest of the world to kick in. It's a tough sell... but, we can start by admitting our wrongdoings and conceding that they were right in their protest of our actions.
From there, we can ask that our NATO Allies help us by taking on the less dangerous tasks, such as border security and security over Iraq's oil assets as well as the trainning of Iraqi security forces, including their officers and logistics support infrastructure. Ask that the neighboring Arab nations kick in and help train the Iraqi police. Ask the European and Pacific Rim nations to do the rebuilding, once security is established. Put the Iraqis to work... doing the actual labor, driving the trucks, manning the bulldozers.
We have to bankroll the whole thing because this is our mess... our responsibility and we are accountable.
It is possible... but, not probable. We will never admit our fault and will always take the weasle's approach of making excuses for our mistakes, instead of owning up to them. We're supposed to be Americans... maybe we should start acting like it.
agreed and i stated the same argument on another site
of course it's about oil. and if you think for a second that the United States is the only one who needs arabian oil you are kidding yourself. unlike Europe, this country does have at least some ability to produce oil. not enough. but countries like FRANCE, Germany, Japan, Australia, and on and on, also depend on Persian Gulf oil.
I did not say this was a good thing. I think we need to kick the oil habit asap. But it's not happening tommorow. This is called real politik. Or in other words, it sucks, but that's life.
The countries that refused to go to war (France and Germany) certainly had selfish reasons no to do so Bundy. But nonetheless they did not take a part in a war based on nothing and there are no bad reasons for that. If you want to bash on France's need for oil I suggest you look in Africa, you'll find much better arguments than Iraqi Oil.
I think today though America should be getting a little help from it's friends to get out of Iraq in a realistic manner. I'm surprised nothing was asked to the allies.
Everyone concedes that Iraq has not turned out like we hoped it would. But it's painfully obvious that Democrats (and some Republicans) are now emersed in political posturing based on opinion polls.
They know the majority of Americans oppose the war, and so they are trying to score political points with their constituents by demanding that the war come to an end.
But I haven't heard a cohesive plan from anybody... You hear I'm in favor of a "phased withdrawal" or "bring all the troops home"... but do the problems in the Middle East end there? Of course they don't, which begs the question - then what?
Bring the troops home, and then what? Phased withdrawal and then what?
Nobody wants to talk about what's to come afterwards. Isn't this a bit short-sighted?
Political posturing must be eliminated.. for example the political posturing of your post.
For all of his problems and downfalls, Bush's strategy is the only one that deals with the long term. His plan might have a small chance of success, but at least it offers a long term solution if it does prevail. Nobody else can say that, mostly becuase it is something nobody else wants to talk about.
I have all the respect in the world for somebody who doesn't like this war. But I will never understand why people would want us to leave now and abandon a nation in need. If anything, we need to buck up and do the dirty work that needs to be done to secure that country. It isn't beyond our capabilites - it's just beyond our will, which is pathetic.
all we have to do after that is negotiate with all parties with a willingness to help and a willingness to understand. Of course, for us, that will be much more difficult than invading or withdrawing.
Comments
and your option would be RUN FAST SO IRAN CAN CONTROL REGION?
This is a misperception generally drummed up my the Europeans at the start of this war. If you in Canada think this was has in any way been good for this countires oil deposits, come on down and take a look at what a tank of gas costs. Whether George Bush had the Iraqi oil fields in his sights, or just Saddaam is a matter of pure speculation. Personally I think George W is not smart enough to be that diabolical. I think he is simple thinker who truly believed that axis of evil crap. I still think he believes it. I also think it was payback. Saddam tried to have his father killed. I think that made little George lose focus. Of course I dont claim to know. Im just speculating.
Last time I checked most wars are really fought over resources, whether it's land, minerals, air, water, or oil, resources are ALWAYS what war is about. Propoganda is what makes it easier for people to sell war, like slavery, or pearl harbor. Hogwash. Economics. Plain and simple.
Then hop on your horse, and go.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I have a plan.
Congress should lie to the American people and tell them that everything is now great in Iraq and it's ok to come home. If the American people need proof...well...new episodes of Lost are proof that all is right in the world, and questioning this proof would be quite unamerican.
I bet it would work...about as much substance as the lie that got us into this shit at least.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
That just might work.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
The point is, we have the power to choose our leaders. We chose George Bush. Twice. He got us into this mess, but we as voters collaborated by either not voting or voting for the wrong guy. Wrong guy could have been Ralph Nader, or the wrong guy in the primary, or even George Bush. But we voted wrong.
Now that we voted wrong, and have destabilized the whole fucking world with our choices, we have to fix it. We have an obligation to fix the country and the region WE fucked up. Now that has nothing to do with oil. We have to stay until the shit is fixed. We Americans don't run. Especially when we fucked up. We gotta stay and fix it. Now whats wrong with that?
Reality? I find this absurd. Certainly Iran may send materials and political influence, but going into Iraq would leave them to inherit the mess and fight. Surely they see our troubles, and remember the waste last time they fought Iraq.
Concerning the oil, we simply have to start somewhere and things like $5.00 gas might be a boon in the long run. We need to conserve and we need to switch over as soon as possible and $5.00 gas (which I am not predicting, others will continue shipping similar quantities because they will not get in a fight) would contribute to conservation and a quicker switchover from oil to other things.
While it is not a good plan, an immediate pullout is the plan that Bush could fuck up the least.
Actually, I believe we NEED to stay because we basically bought the thing when we broke it. I believe we CAN actually succeed... IF... we can get the rest of the world to kick in. It's a tough sell... but, we can start by admitting our wrongdoings and conceding that they were right in their protest of our actions.
From there, we can ask that our NATO Allies help us by taking on the less dangerous tasks, such as border security and security over Iraq's oil assets as well as the trainning of Iraqi security forces, including their officers and logistics support infrastructure. Ask that the neighboring Arab nations kick in and help train the Iraqi police. Ask the European and Pacific Rim nations to do the rebuilding, once security is established. Put the Iraqis to work... doing the actual labor, driving the trucks, manning the bulldozers.
We have to bankroll the whole thing because this is our mess... our responsibility and we are accountable.
It is possible... but, not probable. We will never admit our fault and will always take the weasle's approach of making excuses for our mistakes, instead of owning up to them. We're supposed to be Americans... maybe we should start acting like it.
Hail, Hail!!!
Everybody's fightin' for the Promise Land.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Wine goes in at the lips
and love comes in at the eye
Thats all we shall know for truth
before we grow old and die..
I lift the glass to my lips
I look at you and sigh."
~ W.B. Yeats
agreed and i stated the same argument on another site
The countries that refused to go to war (France and Germany) certainly had selfish reasons no to do so Bundy. But nonetheless they did not take a part in a war based on nothing and there are no bad reasons for that. If you want to bash on France's need for oil I suggest you look in Africa, you'll find much better arguments than Iraqi Oil.
I think today though America should be getting a little help from it's friends to get out of Iraq in a realistic manner. I'm surprised nothing was asked to the allies.
all we have to do after that is negotiate with all parties with a willingness to help and a willingness to understand. Of course, for us, that will be much more difficult than invading or withdrawing.