Science Without a Soul

angelica

There is a difference between acknowledging a state of affairs, for example someone experiencing delusions, or experiencing pyschosis, and with adding a degrading element of lowering someone or putting them down, or using power plays.

And likewise there is a difference between holding psychiatry accountable for the power plays put forth in the name of the profession, and between degrading psychiatry.

angelica

To elaborate, if I say I am a victim and have been a victim of psychiatry, I am taking the victim role of the "victim/rescuer/persecutor" triangle. Then I automatically and unconsciously will cycle through the other stages. i.e.: I will feel like a victim and think it give me the right to then persecute psychiatry and it's practitioners, thusly being persecutory.

On the other hand, according to power issues of transactional analysis, it's always okay to consider someone or thing to be equal and call them on their behaviour if not done in a degrading, or exalting manner.

I do not claim victimhood to anyone or anything. I don't claim I ever was a victim to psychiatry. I fully participated in the system at all stages of the game while I did so. I was a full equal in the process. And I still call it and it's practitioners on their behaviours. Note when I mentioned in this thread that I've been committed falsely against my will. Even in that situation while I hold those accountable for doing so, I don't blame anyone, or feel like I was a victim, nor did I imply that.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

To elaborate, if I say I am a victim and have been a victim of psychiatry, I am taking the victim role of the "victim/rescuer/persecutor" triangle. Then I automatically and unconsciously will cycle through the other stages. i.e.: I will feel like a victim and think it give me the right to then persecute psychiatry and it's practitioners, thusly being persecutory.

On the other hand, according to power issues of transactional analysis, it's always okay to consider someone or thing to be equal and call them on their behaviour if not done in a degrading, or exalting manner.

I do not claim victimhood to anyone or anything. I don't claim I ever was a victim to psychiatry. I fully participated in the system at all stages of the game while I did so. I was a full equal in the process. And I still call it and it's practitioners on their behaviours. Note when I mentioned in this thread that I've been committed falsely against my will. Even in that situation while I hold those accountable for doing so, I don't blame anyone, or feel like I was a victim, nor did I imply that.

Angelica. I've also been falsely admitted against my will. It didn't do me any harm, and by exhibiting normal behavior, I was released after two weeks. On the contrary, I was able to meet with real mentally ill people. A paranoid schizophrenic named Steve who was there by his own deliberation. I became friends with him, on occasion Steve would admit himself to the psychiatric ward for assistance. He functioned well with the help of pharmacological aid.

I'm the first one to suggest that ADHD is overdiagnosed and overmedicated. But that alone isn't reason enough for me to lobby against pyschiatry. Rather, it's a reason for me to stay informed and to support the education of the public on mental health. Rather, I support the increase of funding of psychiatry.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Angelica. I've also been falsely admitted against my will. It didn't do me any harm, and by exhibiting normal behavior, I was released after two weeks. On the contrary, I was able to meet with real mentally ill people. A paranoid schizophrenic named Steve who was there by his own deliberation. I became friends with him, on occasion Steve would admit himself to the psychiatric ward for assistance. He functioned well with the help of pharmacological aid.

I'm the first one to suggest that ADHD is overdiagnosed and overmedicated. But that alone isn't reason enough for me to lobby against pyschiatry. Rather, it's a reason for me to stay informed and to support the education of the public on mental health. Rather, I support the increase of funding of psychiatry.

Everything has a dark side, including psychiatry and it's fair to address it.

The problem with being committed, especially falsely!, against one's will is it's a huge power thing. It's an abuse of power. Again, I understand the situations where I was committed against my will, and all the variables involved that I've barely even held those involved accountable, and certainly not with anger. And my hospitalizations were some of the best experiences of my life, ironically.

As for the "imbalance" stuff you've been throwing at me these past few pages, I did not understand what you were getting at, until my prior two posts. The words I said in post 97 I said thinking of a professional minimizing a patient. My choice of the word "imbalanced" was not a good choice, given that word, or the word "delusions" etc. can be neutral and useful words. The problem comes in when they are used to keep one out of power, for example, in order to "convince" (coerce) a patient to take meds when they are not comfortable with the idea. When information is slanted to stack the decks against the patient that is unethical and has consequences of an imbalanced situation. Someone pays the price, and someone dodges their rightful ownership of a power play.

I fully realize that often/mostly these imbalances of power take place unconsciously. The people acting out power imbalances whether victim, or rescuer are opposite sides of the same coin and will come together naturally, without blame being relevent. In the case of psychiatry and other authoritarian situations, it is stacked in the odds of the "rescuer", in terms of being socially acceptable. Just like a workaholic married to an alcoholic gets the credit for being the "functional one" when really they are both contributing to the imbalance present. It's about our general level of awareness at this time. And our social "norms". For this reason, I support any movements that takes steps towards evening the playing field. I don't subscribe to anti-pyschiatry at all, and I never have. However the points in the videos needn't be swept under the rug and dismissed so easily. And I am soooo fortunate to have been through the mental health system after those like Thomas Szasz and Eric Berne added their two cents of holding psychiatry accountable.

gue_barium

Ahnimus wrote:

I understand why you are taking the position you are though. Your behavior is characteristic of someone with mental health issues. You carry on conversations with yourself, make totally irrelevant, yet provocative statements and you get a kick out of antagonizing people into a useless arguement. Sounds like you need some Fluoxetine bud.

I didn't start with the petty insults. I've never had a problem with you. I do think your posts nowadays are 99.9% boring googled BS. But when I do dare to bother with them, I've been finding, lately, it seems as though you are trying to come across as a sort of self-appointed messiah of science on this board. You can no more speak for science than Jerry Falwell can speak for God, and it makes you both look ridiculous.

So, keep on making an ass out of yourself. No skin off my back.

MahoganySouls

angelica wrote:

There is a difference between acknowledging a state of affairs, for example someone experiencing delusions, or experiencing pyschosis, and with adding a degrading element of lowering someone or putting them down, or using power plays.

And likewise there is a difference between holding psychiatry accountable for the power plays put forth in the name of the profession, and between degrading psychiatry.

I know I said I was done with this conversation, but I can't help myself.

Angelica in the instance of someone experiencing delusions or psychosis, what other option is there than to exhert power over them in their best interest? In such a situation, if the pysician were to ask the patient permission to treat them, the patient would most likely decline because of the delusion and psychosis. So if forcing the patient to comply isn't acceptable to you, what should the doctors, family, friends do?

Ahnimus

MahoganySouls wrote:

I know I said I was done with this conversation, but I can't help myself.

Angelica in the instance of someone experiencing delusions or psychosis, what other option is there than to exhert power over them in their best interest? In such a situation, if the pysician were to ask the patient permission to treat them, the patient would most likely decline because of the delusion and psychosis. So if forcing the patient to comply isn't acceptable to you, what should the doctors, family, friends do?

They could become the leader of a new holocaust. Nobody stopped Hitler and clearly he was mentally ill.

angelica

MahoganySouls wrote:

I know I said I was done with this conversation, but I can't help myself.

Angelica in the instance of someone experiencing delusions or psychosis, what other option is there than to exhert power over them in their best interest? In such a situation, if the pysician were to ask the patient permission to treat them, the patient would most likely decline because of the delusion and psychosis. So if forcing the patient to comply isn't acceptable to you, what should the doctors, family, friends do?

I understand there are many tough questions in terms of mental health issues. In my personal opinion, I would probably think differently than what I advocate for professional policy. Ultimately, I can say for the sake of the argument, I understand the sometimes questionable choices that are made when someone is unable to think for themselves due to active mental illness. Including the sometimes questionable choices people made on my behalf, when I was actively mentally imbalanced. Choices I know were made in my best interests, and for example, afforded me the ability to keep my children, unlike some who were less fortunate and lost custody of their children.

At the same time, I can understand the human rights issues and that such standards cannot be lowered. So I understand why, in Canada, at least, we cannot force treatment on someone unless they are a harm to themselves and or to others. And as far as my own role in the mental health arena, I am always supportive, which includes supporting all manner of things I disagree with personally, unless a person is a danger to themselves or to others.

My concerns that I am referring to regarding psychiatry in general, and throughout this thread are not about what happens in crises. My concerns are how people with a "mental illness" are treated "normally". What I mean is when illness is not manifest, or active. People are STILL pathologized. Their ability to choose for themselves is STILL questioned. For example, it's okay to say things like "mentally ill people are practicing transference, etc" or "they can't choose for themselves" or "they are not making rational choices". These comments are stereotypes, and generalizations, and apply to all kinds of so-called "normal" people. My mother was ostracized, pressured and coerced constantly through her life for her decision made over and over and over during periods of INACTIVITY of illness, to not take psychiatric medication. In crisis it was easy to convince her to take meds (at the hospital, not at home) The power issues are ongoing in interactions all the time, once someone knows about the psychiatric past.

If you had thought I was a mental health professional, and did not know my past as a patient as well, you would not have opted to tell me I am diseased and always will be. This type of thing is prevalent, and because of it I live to reverse stigma and raise awareness. I mean I literally live to do this. I decided a long time ago that I would heal and get empowered so I could change the myriad imbalances of power stacked against individuals who are struggling to get their footing, and need a supportive environment in order to thrive.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

They could become the leader of a new holocaust. Nobody stopped Hitler and clearly he was mentally ill.

How do you come to this diagnosis?

MahoganySouls

angelica wrote:

My concerns that I am referring to regarding psychiatry in general, and throughout this thread are not about what happens in crises. My concerns are how people with a "mental illness" are treated "normally". What I mean is when illness is not manifest, or active. People are STILL pathologized. Their ability to choose for themselves is STILL questioned. For example, it's okay to say things like "mentally ill people are practicing transference, etc" or "they can't choose for themselves" or "they are not making rational choices".

This is the attitude that I simply do not understand from you and other "groups" or "advocates" who run with such a concept.

In the field of mental health, the goal of the practitioner is to get the patient to a point of self sufficency. Not a single colleague that I have ever known or read has promoted otherwise. It simply isn't the concept of Psychiatry as a whole to "keep the patient down."

The most important ethical qualities of medicine is "first do no harm". So to accuse doctors of the mind as getting their jollies by making zombies or victims of their patients is ludicrious.

The only time these comments that you fear are uttered is when the patient is indeed displaying such qualities.

angelica

I want to add an amendment to what I've said:

"The problem with being committed, especially falsely!, against one's will is it's a huge power thing. It's an abuse of power. "


I mean the problem with being committed falsely is a huge power thing. If it were true that I'd taken an overdose two times, I completely can understand, and at this time agree with the need to commit me were I not to seek treatment on my own, or recognize a need to do so.

MahoganySouls

Likewise I must add that it is an unfortunate truth that there are SOME truly incompetent doctors out there. The idea of "quacks" is not a falacy. In this regard, it is very important that if a patient does not feel comfortable with their doctor, that they find another. If however a person is constantly jumping from one practice to the next, the question must be raised as to the what the real problem is.

Ahnimus

gue_barium wrote:

I didn't start with the petty insults. I've never had a problem with you. I do think your posts nowadays are 99.9% boring googled BS. But when I do dare to bother with them, I've been finding, lately, it seems as though you are trying to come across as a sort of self-appointed messiah of science on this board. You can no more speak for science than Jerry Falwell can speak for God, and it makes you both look ridiculous.

So, keep on making an ass out of yourself. No skin off my back.

While your brain is busting, I'm readjusting
My synaptic weights, to represent, the best hypothesis, to date


Sorry, just a little neurophilosophical rap. It's a work in progress.

angelica

MahoganySouls wrote:

This is the attitude that I simply do not understand from you and other "groups" or "advocates" who run with such a concept.

In the field of mental health, the goal of the practitioner is to get the patient to a point of self sufficency. Not a single colleague that I have ever known or read has promoted otherwise. It simply isn't the concept of Psychiatry as a whole to "keep the patient down."

The most important ethical qualities of medicine is "first do no harm". So to accuse doctors of the mind as getting their jollies by making zombies or victims of their patients is ludicrious.

The only time these comments that you fear are uttered is when the patient is indeed displaying such qualities.

I did not "accuse" anything, and was clear that it's not about blame. As I said it's the dark side or the underbelly of the profession, and of people. On the conscious surface of awareness, people believe they are doing others a favour. We cannot see where we can use growth until it is presented to us. I'm well aware professionals are not deliberately doing this. Throughout this thread, on any point I've made, rather than consider error on behalf of the professional, you've pointed to the problem existing in the patient. Even though you admit psychiatry is in it's infancy, it seems you cannot acknowledge how it falters and errs. Psychiatry has inherent to it's system the existence of a convenient scapegoat in the mentally ill.

I will give another example of how psychiatry falters due to it's limitations that are not inherent to the individual. And my psychiatrist was a pretty good one. We are on a band message board, and I can't imagine that there is one person on here that hasn't been quite influenced by Pearl Jam's music and some of the profound messages they've shared with us. During one period of addressing the numerous life abuses I'd endured, by talking them out with my boyfriend, I found that at the time, I was also being inspired by some songs and the powerful messages in them (not Pearl Jam at the time, however). I told this to my psychiatrist. He looked disturbed, and prescribed me more meds. Because psychiatry cannot fathom issues of inspiration, it was assumed that my higher experiences of the human condition was pathological, and could be medicated away.

MahoganySouls

angelica wrote:

I did not "accuse" anything, and was clear that it's not about blame. As I said it's the dark side or the underbelly of the profession, and of people. On the conscious surface of awareness, people believe they are doing others a favour. We cannot see where we can use growth until it is presented to us. I'm well aware professionals are not deliberately doing this. Throughout this thread, on any point I've made, rather than consider error on behalf of the professional, you've pointed to the problem existing in the patient. Even though you admit psychiatry is in it's infancy, it seems you cannot acknowledge how it falters and errs. Psychiatry has inherent to it's system the existence of a convenient scapegoat in the mentally ill.

I will give another example of how psychiatry falters due to it's limitations that are not inherent to the individual. And my psychiatrist was a pretty good one. We are on a band message board, and I can't imagine that there is one person on here that hasn't been quite influenced by Pearl Jam's music and some of the profound messages they've shared with us. During one period of addressing the numerous life abuses I'd endured, by talking them out with my boyfriend, I found that at the time, I was also being inspired by some songs and the powerful messages in them (not Pearl Jam at the time, however). I told this to my psychiatrist. He looked disturbed, and prescribed me more meds. Because psychiatry cannot fathom issues of inspiration, it was assumed that my higher experiences of the human condition was pathological, and could be medicated away.

I am curious, what were these "higher experiences" that you refer to?

angelica

MahoganySouls wrote:

Likewise I must add that it is an unfortunate truth that there are SOME truly incompetent doctors out there. The idea of "quacks" is not a falacy. In this regard, it is very important that if a patient does not feel comfortable with their doctor, that they find another. If however a person is constantly jumping from one practice to the next, the question must be raised as to the what the real problem is.

This can be true--that the doctor may not be a match for the individual. And also, a professional may make one good choice and the next one may be a poor choice. It can and does go by interaction to interaction, and is not a blanket thing. As I say in general my doctor had a good reputation, and was empowering in some ways, like encouraging me to take responsibility for my own medication status. At other times, he made errors, which represented the "infancy" of psychiatry, meaning the flaws.

angelica

MahoganySouls wrote:

I am curious, what were these "higher experiences" that you refer to?

I just explained one--the song inspiration.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

I just explained one--the song inspiration.

I'm inspired by this song by Eek A Mouse
Bidi Bidi Bong Bong
Bidi Bong Bong
Bidi Bong Bong
Bidi Me'hen

Bong Bong
Bidi Bong Bong
Bidi Bong Bong
Bidi Men
Bena Bena bohoi
gena men den
gena men
ehya

Ahnimus

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D9iXsF7lRE0

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D9iXsF7lRE0

This is my kind of inspiration!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpX3NhpRGdE