There's a difference when the very people that were forced out are still alive.
Or worse. Some of their family members got smoked by the occupation, on top of that they're still situated a stones throw of their old home. Some homes and land being previously held in the family over several generations.
I can't ever imagine why they would be upset (sarcasm).
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Hamas was invited to the talks but it's leadership, not the elected officials mind you, where the one's that stated that no representative from Hamas would attend. The elected officials who govern over the Gaza Strip want to negotiate. They realize that diplomacy not violence is the only path that will produce results. It's is the fanatics that run the organization who have no interest in peace but in killing as many Israelis as possible. If the political wing of Hamas ever wants to be taken seriously it needs to seperate itself from the militant wing.
Everything you've said in this post is complete bullshit. Hamas weren't invited to the talks. Israel and the U.S refuse to negotiate with them.
If you have evidence to the contrary, then present it.
Also while Israel's occupation of Palestinian land is unacceptable setting off a bomb on a crowded bus is never an acceptable method to dealing with it.
Neither is it acceptable to fire missiles into crowded residential streets, or to bulldoze someones home, or to shoot a six year old in the head for throwing stones at an armoured vehicle, e.t.c. But, hey! That's all just self-defence, right?
Both parties are equally responsible for the blood shed in that region.
This is where you are wrong. One party is living in dire poverty and can hardly feed itself, let alone defend itself. While the other party is propped up by the worlds only superpower, and is currently in breach of over 60 U.N resolutions, including that calling the occupation of Palestine a war crime.
There is no level playing field there at all.
i don't think bad of them.. i just try to keep my life a usual..
i participated in some volunteering organizations and had some joint activities with Arabs and they have the same interests as ours..
in a country that its the law to go to the army and almost every day soldiers are getting killed it hits close to home, so i can't help to hope that in two years it won't be my friends and me [if i choose to be in combat or not..].
But your soldiers aren't being killed every day.
And I was asking you what you thought of the Palestinians. You say you don't think bad of them? What are your thoughts on the occupation?
Let me elaborate. Again please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always here how Israel will not sit down for talks as long as there are attacks against the country from Palestinian radicals and how they want fatah to do something about them. It is pretty obvious to me that fatah does not have the resources to defeat these radicals especially Hamas who is backed by Syria and Iran. Is there a way that Israel can offer support to Fatah to help them supress the terrorist element within their borders and/or maybe looses the leash a little in order for Fatah to gain more support from the average Palestinian citizen.
Fatah is a puppet government with as much validity to run Palestine as me.
They were put in place by Israel and the U.S who simply want to consolidate the stolen territories by paying off these corrupt, unelected officials.
You talk of 'terrorist elemnts? Israel is carrying out acts of terrorism on a daily basis. The occupation itself is an act of terrorism.
Hamas is a legitimate resistance movement.
I bet if we were talking about 1980's South Africa here, you'd be cheering on the Apartheid regime, and saying that Nelson Mandela and the ANC are preventing peace, and represent a radical element.
Fatah will never be supported by the average Palestinian citizen because, for one thing, the average Palestinian citizen isn't as brainwashed and deluded about the situation over there as you. They see it for what it is. The only party willing to stand up for the rights of the average citizen, and to not bow down to the U.S and Israels greed, and corruption, is Hamas. Fatah, and Abbas are a joke. But you can bet they're being well looked after. The U.S has just given them $45 million for starters. A nice little backhander, ay? Unfortunately, whatever Abbas and his crowd agree to give away to Israel and the U.S, it won't achieve anything but more bloodshed in the long term. Fatah, therefore, is the problem here, not Hamas.
in what way that has not been tried yet do you think Israel can show hamas that diplomacy can work?
They can begin by offering to negotiate with them for a start. Secondly, I'd recommend that Israel offer to talk with Hamas in the absence of the U.S. It's the U.S government afterall that has blocked any chance of a peace settlement over the past 36 years. I think Israel would be better off doing what is best for it's own people and cease allowing itself to be used as nothing but a corrupt military outpost for U.S imperial interests.
progress was made in 1993 in Oslo maybe it can happen again. but again, hamas wont recognize Israel or renounce violence. fatah does, now if we can only get hamas on board progress can be made.
Progress was made in 1993 in Oslo? Please elaborate.
And I'll repeat again, for the 100th time. Hamas has every right to refuse to recognise Israel. Israel in it's current incarnation is engaged in an illegal occupation of Palestinian land. Now proceed to ignore my comment and forget I ever said it. I'll repeat it again the next time you rehash your horseshit statement about Hamas needing to recognise Israel.
As for your other point about Hamas having to 'renounce violence', that is just too pathetic to be worthy of comment.
Is 3 generations better? how about 4? I don't know the answer but you have to put a number on it. if you go back far enough in history every nation on earth had someone else living there at one time who was forced out or destroyed. Sucks but thats the way it is. Dwell on the present and the future, not the (increasingly distant) past.
So you think that the Palestinians could today just turn around and say:
"O.k, we give in! Now we'll stop resisting and fighting to get our stolen land back, and instead simply live peaceful lives in harmony with our benevolent neighbours!"
I don't know what fantasy you've dream't up in your head about what life is like there for these people, but allow me to just say that it's no bed of roses. Checkpoints, interrogations, summary executions, homes being bulldozed, continued illegal settlement building by Israel, no soveriegnty over land, air, or sea space, the threat of snipers and missiles attacks on a daily basis, e.t.c, e.t.c.
Progress was made in 1993 in Oslo? Please elaborate.
And I'll repeat again, for the 100th time. Hamas has every right to refuse to recognise Israel. Israel in it's current incarnation is engaged in an illegal occupation of Palestinian land. Now proceed to ignore my comment and forget I ever said it. I'll repeat it again the next time you rehash your horseshit statement about Hamas needing to recognise Israel.
As for your other point about Hamas having to 'renounce violence', that is just too pathetic to be worthy of comment.
you can repeat it all you want. you support an organization that 100% supports nothing but violence. you have never once mentioned something they have done wrong.
The murderous terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas in Jerusalem (19 August 2003) killing 21 civilians, a third of which were children, has effectively ended the brief cease fire (“hudna”) which had actually not been observed by Hamas or other terrorist organizations. Since the outbreak of hostilities (September 2000), Hamas carried out over 500 terrorist attacks killing 390 people and injuring 2,100 (mostly civilians).
you actually applaud such things. they can do no wrong.
I will call out Israel for all the wrong they do. I'll repeat that 1000 times. Israel is guilty of many horrible things.
They can begin by offering to negotiate with them for a start. Secondly, I'd recommend that Israel offer to talk with Hamas in the absence of the U.S. It's the U.S government afterall that has blocked any chance of a peace settlement over the past 36 years. I think Israel would be better off doing what is best for it's own people and cease allowing itself to be used as nothing but a corrupt military outpost for U.S imperial interests.
I kind of disagree with this. Israel has much influence over the US as well, and while the US adds to its corruption, it is still present without the US.
So you think that the Palestinians could today just turn around and say:
"O.k, we give in! Now we'll stop resisting and fighting to get our stolen land back, and instead simply live peaceful lives in harmony with our benevolent neighbours!"
You forgot to mention, "And sleep on the remnants of our bulldozed homes like nothing happened!"
you can repeat it all you want. you support an organization that 100% supports nothing but violence. you have never once mentioned something they have done wrong.
The murderous terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas in Jerusalem (19 August 2003) killing 21 civilians, a third of which were children, has effectively ended the brief cease fire (“hudna”) which had actually not been observed by Hamas or other terrorist organizations. Since the outbreak of hostilities (September 2000), Hamas carried out over 500 terrorist attacks killing 390 people and injuring 2,100 (mostly civilians).
you actually applaud such things. they can do no wrong.
I will call out Israel for all the wrong they do. I'll repeat that 1000 times. Israel is guilty of many horrible things.
I know it wasn't directed at me at all, but I'll respond nonetheless.
The thing with your posts, is it's like watching (and yes, I will dare to say) a biased news report. You mention that Israel "does bad things" but you go on to say and give a report on what "terrorist activity" Hamas has done, and just ignore anything about Israel. That's how news reporters get away with being biased, but slipping a little thing about Israel but going on about Hamas.
Honestly, you know damn well Israel does things Hamas do with a multitude of perhaps 10 times, if not more. Why do you go on saying Hamas "prevents peace" when it is clear who is the more disruptive military group in the region? Israel definitely does not always act in defense to strikes from "terrorist" groups from Palestine. In fact, they are on the offensive many many times.
Quit saying Hamas is the ONLY one preventing peace. It's certainly not true. And don't respond to my entire post by just posting some bullshit about me mentioning a biased news report. that's not the point of my post, it's an example, and in my opinion, a valid one.
Right, and It wouldn't be possible for me to dig up about 100 links to articles detailing atrocities carried out by Israel?
It would be too easy. But why state the obvious?
I know it wasn't directed at me at all, but I'll respond nonetheless.
The thing with your posts, is it's like watching (and yes, I will dare to say) a biased news report. You mention that Israel "does bad things" but you go on to say and give a report on what "terrorist activity" Hamas has done, and just ignore anything about Israel. That's how news reporters get away with being biased, but slipping a little thing about Israel but going on about Hamas.
Honestly, you know damn well Israel does things Hamas do with a multitude of perhaps 10 times, if not more. Why do you go on saying Hamas "prevents peace" when it is clear who is the more disruptive military group in the region? Israel definitely does not always act in defense to strikes from "terrorist" groups from Palestine. In fact, they are on the offensive many many times.
Quit saying Hamas is the ONLY one preventing peace. It's certainly not true. And don't respond to my entire post by just posting some bullshit about me mentioning a biased news report. that's not the point of my post, it's an example, and in my opinion, a valid one.
I know it wasn't directed at me at all, but I'll respond nonetheless.
The thing with your posts, is it's like watching (and yes, I will dare to say) a biased news report. You mention that Israel "does bad things" but you go on to say and give a report on what "terrorist activity" Hamas has done, and just ignore anything about Israel. That's how news reporters get away with being biased, but slipping a little thing about Israel but going on about Hamas.
Honestly, you know damn well Israel does things Hamas do with a multitude of perhaps 10 times, if not more. Why do you go on saying Hamas "prevents peace" when it is clear who is the more disruptive military group in the region? Israel definitely does not always act in defense to strikes from "terrorist" groups from Palestine. In fact, they are on the offensive many many times.
Quit saying Hamas is the ONLY one preventing peace. It's certainly not true. And don't respond to my entire post by just posting some bullshit about me mentioning a biased news report. that's not the point of my post, it's an example, and in my opinion, a valid one.
You noticed that?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
As for me applauding atrocities carried out by either side, you clearly are just trying to provoke me to getting banned by responding to your post with what I really think of it.
On this occasion, I won't take the bait.
Five Against One is right Jlew, you should pick one side and defend it at all costs, not recognizing anything wrong that 'your side' does. You should only repeatedly point out the 'other side's' wrongdoing without ever for a second recognizing that both sides share in at least some of the blame. Admitting that 'your side' is less than 100% noble and pure is a sure sign that your argument is flawed and you are weak.
Don't ever acknowledge that at least some of the 'other side's' argument might be true, instead ignore it and be secure in your own self righteousness, for you are truly the chosen one and 'your side' is infallible.
I'm really very dissappointed in you Jlew. I expected more.
heh i think i found the perfect costume for my nephew for halloween.
Palestinian Kindergartener!!!
That's easy, just toss a dirty blood stained sheet over him and pretend he's a corpse..
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Five Against One is right Jlew, you should pick one side and defend it at all costs, not recognizing anything wrong that 'your side' does. You should only repeatedly point out the 'other side's' wrongdoing without ever for a second recognizing that both sides share in at least some of the blame. Admitting that 'your side' is less than 100% noble and pure is a sure sign that your argument is flawed and you are weak.
Don't ever acknowledge that at least some of the 'other side's' argument might be true, instead ignore it and be secure in your own self righteousness, for you are truly the chosen one and 'your side' is infallible.
I'm really very dissappointed in you Jlew. I expected more.
I know it wasn't directed at me at all, but I'll respond nonetheless.
The thing with your posts, is it's like watching (and yes, I will dare to say) a biased news report. You mention that Israel "does bad things" but you go on to say and give a report on what "terrorist activity" Hamas has done, and just ignore anything about Israel. That's how news reporters get away with being biased, but slipping a little thing about Israel but going on about Hamas.
I have and will continue to call out Israel when they are in the wrong. so you for to say I ignore Israel is pure bullshit. Israel is illegally occupying some land. Israel shouldn't have secret prisons. Israel retaliates much to harshly to hamas resistance.
Honestly, you know damn well Israel does things Hamas do with a multitude of perhaps 10 times, if not more. Why do you go on saying Hamas "prevents peace" when it is clear who is the more disruptive military group in the region? Israel definitely does not always act in defense to strikes from "terrorist" groups from Palestine. In fact, they are on the offensive many many times.
hamas ideology along with other islamic extremist groups is to kill themselves in the name of allah.
Israel is getting along just fine with fatah and the ENTIRE west bank. don't tell me Israel isnt capable of peace. up until this point hamas is not.
Quit saying Hamas is the ONLY one preventing peace. It's certainly not true. And don't respond to my entire post by just posting some bullshit about me mentioning a biased news report. that's not the point of my post, it's an example, and in my opinion, a valid one.
first of all, I'll say whatever the fuck I want. second of all, hamas is the only party preventing peace. Israel has a right to exist regardless if you, byzine and hamas don't believe so. and I'm allow an opinion too, a valid one.
As for me applauding atrocities carried out by either side, you clearly are just trying to provoke me to getting banned by responding to your post with what I really think of it.
On this occasion, I won't take the bait.
its not bait. you do applaud it. those innocent people deserve to die. its part of the resistance you support. if enough people die maybe Israel will get the point and give back all the land it sits on and move to Europe or Mongolia or the jungles of southeast asia.
I suppose you could condemn such acts, but why would you?
Israel has a right to exist regardless if you, byzine and hamas don't believe so.
Please provide evidence that I believe Israel has no right to exist. Ah, you can't! I thought so!
I believe Israel has no right to exist in it's current state - I.e, with it's illegal settlements.
Comments
and under a brutal occupation.
it's not comparable to the native americans and europeans.
Or worse. Some of their family members got smoked by the occupation, on top of that they're still situated a stones throw of their old home. Some homes and land being previously held in the family over several generations.
I can't ever imagine why they would be upset (sarcasm).
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Everything you've said in this post is complete bullshit. Hamas weren't invited to the talks. Israel and the U.S refuse to negotiate with them.
If you have evidence to the contrary, then present it.
And Zionists aren't fanatical or dangerous?
Please provide some, or even one, example.
Neither is it acceptable to fire missiles into crowded residential streets, or to bulldoze someones home, or to shoot a six year old in the head for throwing stones at an armoured vehicle, e.t.c. But, hey! That's all just self-defence, right?
This is where you are wrong. One party is living in dire poverty and can hardly feed itself, let alone defend itself. While the other party is propped up by the worlds only superpower, and is currently in breach of over 60 U.N resolutions, including that calling the occupation of Palestine a war crime.
There is no level playing field there at all.
But your soldiers aren't being killed every day.
And I was asking you what you thought of the Palestinians. You say you don't think bad of them? What are your thoughts on the occupation?
Fatah is a puppet government with as much validity to run Palestine as me.
They were put in place by Israel and the U.S who simply want to consolidate the stolen territories by paying off these corrupt, unelected officials.
You talk of 'terrorist elemnts? Israel is carrying out acts of terrorism on a daily basis. The occupation itself is an act of terrorism.
Hamas is a legitimate resistance movement.
I bet if we were talking about 1980's South Africa here, you'd be cheering on the Apartheid regime, and saying that Nelson Mandela and the ANC are preventing peace, and represent a radical element.
Fatah will never be supported by the average Palestinian citizen because, for one thing, the average Palestinian citizen isn't as brainwashed and deluded about the situation over there as you. They see it for what it is. The only party willing to stand up for the rights of the average citizen, and to not bow down to the U.S and Israels greed, and corruption, is Hamas. Fatah, and Abbas are a joke. But you can bet they're being well looked after. The U.S has just given them $45 million for starters. A nice little backhander, ay? Unfortunately, whatever Abbas and his crowd agree to give away to Israel and the U.S, it won't achieve anything but more bloodshed in the long term. Fatah, therefore, is the problem here, not Hamas.
They can begin by offering to negotiate with them for a start. Secondly, I'd recommend that Israel offer to talk with Hamas in the absence of the U.S. It's the U.S government afterall that has blocked any chance of a peace settlement over the past 36 years. I think Israel would be better off doing what is best for it's own people and cease allowing itself to be used as nothing but a corrupt military outpost for U.S imperial interests.
Progress was made in 1993 in Oslo? Please elaborate.
And I'll repeat again, for the 100th time. Hamas has every right to refuse to recognise Israel. Israel in it's current incarnation is engaged in an illegal occupation of Palestinian land. Now proceed to ignore my comment and forget I ever said it. I'll repeat it again the next time you rehash your horseshit statement about Hamas needing to recognise Israel.
As for your other point about Hamas having to 'renounce violence', that is just too pathetic to be worthy of comment.
It wasn't though, was it. On both counts.
So you think that the Palestinians could today just turn around and say:
"O.k, we give in! Now we'll stop resisting and fighting to get our stolen land back, and instead simply live peaceful lives in harmony with our benevolent neighbours!"
I don't know what fantasy you've dream't up in your head about what life is like there for these people, but allow me to just say that it's no bed of roses. Checkpoints, interrogations, summary executions, homes being bulldozed, continued illegal settlement building by Israel, no soveriegnty over land, air, or sea space, the threat of snipers and missiles attacks on a daily basis, e.t.c, e.t.c.
you can repeat it all you want. you support an organization that 100% supports nothing but violence. you have never once mentioned something they have done wrong.
you support acts like brainwashing children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHdWgES-Uw
you support and encourage this...
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/html/final/eng/bu/hamas/character.htm
The murderous terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas in Jerusalem (19 August 2003) killing 21 civilians, a third of which were children, has effectively ended the brief cease fire (“hudna”) which had actually not been observed by Hamas or other terrorist organizations. Since the outbreak of hostilities (September 2000), Hamas carried out over 500 terrorist attacks killing 390 people and injuring 2,100 (mostly civilians).
you actually applaud such things. they can do no wrong.
I will call out Israel for all the wrong they do. I'll repeat that 1000 times. Israel is guilty of many horrible things.
wow, were you beat as a child?
renouncing violence has now become pathetic? I'm glad you posted that statement. it shows alot about you and your mindset.
I kind of disagree with this. Israel has much influence over the US as well, and while the US adds to its corruption, it is still present without the US.
You forgot to mention, "And sleep on the remnants of our bulldozed homes like nothing happened!"
Israel telling the Palestinians to renounce violence is pathetic. You obviously can't see that. Pity.
I thought you might ignore this post
I know it wasn't directed at me at all, but I'll respond nonetheless.
The thing with your posts, is it's like watching (and yes, I will dare to say) a biased news report. You mention that Israel "does bad things" but you go on to say and give a report on what "terrorist activity" Hamas has done, and just ignore anything about Israel. That's how news reporters get away with being biased, but slipping a little thing about Israel but going on about Hamas.
Honestly, you know damn well Israel does things Hamas do with a multitude of perhaps 10 times, if not more. Why do you go on saying Hamas "prevents peace" when it is clear who is the more disruptive military group in the region? Israel definitely does not always act in defense to strikes from "terrorist" groups from Palestine. In fact, they are on the offensive many many times.
Quit saying Hamas is the ONLY one preventing peace. It's certainly not true. And don't respond to my entire post by just posting some bullshit about me mentioning a biased news report. that's not the point of my post, it's an example, and in my opinion, a valid one.
Right, and It wouldn't be possible for me to dig up about 100 links to articles detailing atrocities carried out by Israel?
It would be too easy. But why state the obvious?
Thanks. You said it better than me.
You noticed that?
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
As for me applauding atrocities carried out by either side, you clearly are just trying to provoke me to getting banned by responding to your post with what I really think of it.
On this occasion, I won't take the bait.
Palestinian Kindergartener!!!
Sarcasm. Don't you just love it?
Don't ever acknowledge that at least some of the 'other side's' argument might be true, instead ignore it and be secure in your own self righteousness, for you are truly the chosen one and 'your side' is infallible.
I'm really very dissappointed in you Jlew. I expected more.
That's easy, just toss a dirty blood stained sheet over him and pretend he's a corpse..
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Thanks for completely ignoring what I was saying.
hamas ideology along with other islamic extremist groups is to kill themselves in the name of allah.
Israel is getting along just fine with fatah and the ENTIRE west bank. don't tell me Israel isnt capable of peace. up until this point hamas is not.
first of all, I'll say whatever the fuck I want. second of all, hamas is the only party preventing peace. Israel has a right to exist regardless if you, byzine and hamas don't believe so. and I'm allow an opinion too, a valid one.
its not bait. you do applaud it. those innocent people deserve to die. its part of the resistance you support. if enough people die maybe Israel will get the point and give back all the land it sits on and move to Europe or Mongolia or the jungles of southeast asia.
I suppose you could condemn such acts, but why would you?
That's a rather simplified way of putting it. Why don't they all just engage in a mass suicide pact then?
You think they're all just getting along fine do you?
UN alarm at Palestinian poverty
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6387843.stm
Poverty in Palestine
http://www.waronwant.org/?lid=4204
Please provide evidence that I believe Israel has no right to exist. Ah, you can't! I thought so!
I believe Israel has no right to exist in it's current state - I.e, with it's illegal settlements.