the initial and primary reason that the army is there is to help us and them to.. it is very clear since the last war that fatah's people is launching missiles and retreating to populated areas mainly so that we woulden't shoot them down.. thats the main reason ppl get hurt over there..
i think maybe Israel is not loosening the leash a little so that it woulden't appear as weak and invite even more attack after they already went in there "uninvited"..
Thanks. I appreciate your input. Where in Israel do you hail from?
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I'd still like to know if you think there's a chance that PJ would come over here.. and if any of you met or know some of the Israelis that flew over to see'em?
I'd still like to know if you think there's a chance that PJ would come over here.. and if any of you met or know some of the Israelis that flew over to see'em?
If you post over in the porch you may find some Israeli pj fans. I remember seeing a few who post. yosi, is one I believe.
I really dont ever see pj going to Israel while there is a conflict. based on eddie's politics I would suspect he doesnt like US's strong military support for Israel. but this is just my opinion.
I'd still like to know if you think there's a chance that PJ would come over here.. and if any of you met or know some of the Israelis that flew over to see'em?
i don't know VedJam if they will ever get there. i mean, hey they still won't commit to playing the South in US so who knows. i have not met any of your wonderful fans but i do know there is as petition going around to help get PJ there. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/pearljam_to_israel/index.html
Edit to add:
this is why pj fans are the best. none of us really have ANY idea what it is like living in a country so different to ours. unless we have experienced it. all the talking about it, and reading various articles, still doesn't give you the full picture. then i read this, and it's like for one minute i am on the same wavelength as you. if that makes sense.
Whoever may read this – thank you for taking your time. We deeply appreciate it.
Here's for no more lives wasted, music & peace.
Wishing to rock with you in the free world.
Your fans in Israel.
Hamas is calling for a boycott of the peace conference. seems rather pointless for anyone to offer formal invite.
Well not to defend Hamas but they are the legitamate head of the Palestinian government. I understand why they where not invited, the fact that they do not recognize Israel's right to exist, but if they are not involved in peacefull talks how can you expect them to turn to diplomacy instead of just relying on violence.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Well not to defend Hamas but they are the legitamate head of the Palestinian government. I understand why they where not invited, the fact that they do not recognize Israel's right to exist, but if they are not involved in peacefull talks how can you expect them to turn to diplomacy instead of just relying on violence.
yea I agree, if it were me, I would invite them. its just a fucked up situation. neither side is willing to talk to the other. (israel and hamas)
obviously Israel is more then willing to talk to fatah and abbas.
yea I agree, if it were me, I would invite them. its just a fucked up situation. neither side is willing to talk to the other. (israel and hamas)
obviously Israel is more then willing to talk to fatah and abbas.
They will talk to Fatah but fatah is not the problem, Hamas is. As long as Hamas is not brought to the table they will continue to use violence as a means of obtaining their goals. I'm not saying that diplomacy will definitely work but hopefully if shown that diplomacy can work they may be more adapt to resorting to peacefull negotiations over suicide attacks.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
They will talk to Fatah but fatah is not the problem, Hamas is. As long as Hamas is not brought to the table they will continue to use violence as a means of obtaining their goals. I'm not saying that diplomacy will definitely work but hopefully if shown that diplomacy can work they may be more adapt to resorting to peacefull negotiations over suicide attacks.
maybe if progress is made during these talks, abbas can try and unite (peacefully) with hamas. I think you mentioned that hamas leaders want to be a legitimate body without violence. hopefully thats a start.
in what way that has not been tried yet do you think Israel can show hamas that diplomacy can work?
I'm not saying that Israel hasn't tried, but I think that by excluding Hamas you are closing that option to them only leaving violence as an alternative. For a group that has shown that they will use violence without any regret or remorse, Hamas needs to be given an alternative to rely upon.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Are you talking about Israel itslef as occupied territory? If so, they gotta let it fucking go. Israel isn't going anywhere. People are moved in for good. Even if Israel's existence is illegal, There has to be a statute of limitations on that type of thing. To continue sacrificing your people's lives for a bit of land after its become clear you have no outside support and will never win is just ridiculous, and ultimately selfish. It becomes a crusade.
so if you can take someones land...and hold it for 2 generations...that's it..its yours...woo hoo.
one side: willing to talk and make concessions and wants peace
*other side: does not see the right for the other to exist.
* only Hamas. Abbas's government is ready for talks and peace.
its a damn shame.
do you know the history of Isreal...and its foundation? Not being sarcastic mind you.
Pretty much land was taken away and givin to the jews....going to take more than a couple of generations for the losers of that land to get over it....if you were a palastinian or muslim...you'd feel the same way.
even you would agree that violence is not the anwser. byzine's famous armed resistence movement does nothing to solve the situation. blowing up civilians in a suicide attack is only going to make things worse for Palestinians, not better. sure they can dance with joy that some Israelis are dead but its not going to get their land back.
and yes I would like to see Israel stop occupying some of the land its been taking in recent times. build a wall and be done with it.
Violence may not be the answer, but it is a predictable reaction to apartheid.
Different than other resistence movements though is the more radical attempt by the Palistinian terror groups not only to reform Israel, but to destroy it.
Israel has had a major role in empowering Hamas by imcompetent overreaction to provacation. Collective punishment goes a long way in radicalizing the moderates.
Violence may not be the answer, but it is a predictable reaction to apartheid.
Different than other resistence movements though is the more radical attempt by the Palistinian terror groups not only to reform Israel, but to destroy it.
Israel has had a major role in empowering Hamas by imcompetent overreaction to provacation. Collective punishment goes a long way in radicalizing the moderates.
at the same time no reaction does not do anything else. the governemtn still has to protect their people. it is their job. i believe that to find a solutaion we may need future generation to rise up and use their voice. of course, by the time that the youth do rise up it might be too late.
to be truthfull, i doubt that any talks will do anything. even if both government make a pact both sides will think that they gave in. i fthat happens we may have a war that is worse than now.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
do you know the history of Isreal...and its foundation? Not being sarcastic mind you.
Pretty much land was taken away and givin to the jews....going to take more than a couple of generations for the losers of that land to get over it....if you were a palastinian or muslim...you'd feel the same way.
I'm not asking anyone to get over it. but there needs to be a level of acceptance and then compromise. I'm not saying Israel is without fault by any means.
I'm not asking anyone to get over it. but there needs to be a level of acceptance and then compromise. I'm not saying Israel is without fault by any means.
If your main strategic objective is to trade for peace and security you must preserve enough to make a bargin. For the last forty years Israel has been doing the opposite. Settlements in the west bank grow today. Palistinian moderates cannot believe Israel is serious about a deal.
If your main strategic objective is to trade for peace and security you must preserve enough to make a bargin. For the last forty years Israel has been doing the opposite. Settlements in the west bank grow today. Palistinian moderates cannot believe Israel is serious about a deal.
yes, I agree. there are many illegal settlements that need to be given back. but going to the 1967 borders isn't going to happen. both sides need to meet in the middle. somehow, someway.
progress was made in 1993 in Oslo maybe it can happen again. but again, hamas wont recognize Israel or renounce violence. fatah does, now if we can only get hamas on board progress can be made.
yes, I agree. there are many illegal settlements that need to be given back. but going to the 1967 borders isn't going to happen. both sides need to meet in the middle. somehow, someway.
progress was made in 1993 in Oslo maybe it can happen again. but again, hamas wont recognize Israel or renounce violence. fatah does, now if we can only get hamas on board progress can be made.
I doubt you're involved in the negotions but declaring off the table what the international community recognizes as acceptable is no way to invite discussion.
The six day war was a defensive war and Isreal was justified in its preemptive strikes. (by no means is it comparable to unjustifiable bush preemptive war btw) Expansion of Israel's borders is offensive and it continues at this moment. No other country or international body besides Israel recognizes this expansion as legitimate. One must be from the United States not to recognize the pariah status of a settler state.
The starting point for any negotiations has been Palestinian peace in exchange for a real state with close to 1967 borders -certainly adjustments are part of the discussion. That was the case with the Geneva accords and seemingly in Oslo, though the details are disputed and by many accounts may have been worse or even designed to be unacceptable.
The towering fact of growing settlements leaves concern as to whether Israel's real objective is more land, or peace.
so if you can take someones land...and hold it for 2 generations...that's it..its yours...woo hoo.
Is 3 generations better? how about 4? I don't know the answer but you have to put a number on it. if you go back far enough in history every nation on earth had someone else living there at one time who was forced out or destroyed. Sucks but thats the way it is. Dwell on the present and the future, not the (increasingly distant) past.
Is 3 generations better? how about 4? I don't know the answer but you have to put a number on it. if you go back far enough in history every nation on earth had someone else living there at one time who was forced out or destroyed. Sucks but thats the way it is. Dwell on the present and the future, not the (increasingly distant) past.
Comments
Thanks. I appreciate your input. Where in Israel do you hail from?
If you post over in the porch you may find some Israeli pj fans. I remember seeing a few who post. yosi, is one I believe.
I really dont ever see pj going to Israel while there is a conflict. based on eddie's politics I would suspect he doesnt like US's strong military support for Israel. but this is just my opinion.
no they weren't.
Where is that near? My girlfriend has family in Hasharon.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/pearljam_to_israel/index.html
Edit to add:
this is why pj fans are the best. none of us really have ANY idea what it is like living in a country so different to ours. unless we have experienced it. all the talking about it, and reading various articles, still doesn't give you the full picture. then i read this, and it's like for one minute i am on the same wavelength as you. if that makes sense.
Whoever may read this – thank you for taking your time. We deeply appreciate it.
Here's for no more lives wasted, music & peace.
Wishing to rock with you in the free world.
Your fans in Israel.
Ok I just did a search and you are correct. I was misinformed.
Well now I have to rethink my position and offer an apology to Byrnzie.
Hamas is calling for a boycott of the peace conference. seems rather pointless for anyone to offer formal invite.
Well not to defend Hamas but they are the legitamate head of the Palestinian government. I understand why they where not invited, the fact that they do not recognize Israel's right to exist, but if they are not involved in peacefull talks how can you expect them to turn to diplomacy instead of just relying on violence.
yea I agree, if it were me, I would invite them. its just a fucked up situation. neither side is willing to talk to the other. (israel and hamas)
obviously Israel is more then willing to talk to fatah and abbas.
They will talk to Fatah but fatah is not the problem, Hamas is. As long as Hamas is not brought to the table they will continue to use violence as a means of obtaining their goals. I'm not saying that diplomacy will definitely work but hopefully if shown that diplomacy can work they may be more adapt to resorting to peacefull negotiations over suicide attacks.
maybe if progress is made during these talks, abbas can try and unite (peacefully) with hamas. I think you mentioned that hamas leaders want to be a legitimate body without violence. hopefully thats a start.
in what way that has not been tried yet do you think Israel can show hamas that diplomacy can work?
I'm not saying that Israel hasn't tried, but I think that by excluding Hamas you are closing that option to them only leaving violence as an alternative. For a group that has shown that they will use violence without any regret or remorse, Hamas needs to be given an alternative to rely upon.
and i think you meant Ramat Hasharon.. and ya, its very close..:]
That's it. It's near Herzliya right.
Pretty much land was taken away and givin to the jews....going to take more than a couple of generations for the losers of that land to get over it....if you were a palastinian or muslim...you'd feel the same way.
so i quess you will be giving your land up to the natives in your country.
i am not saying that i agree with Isreal but i think we have to look at this as a bigger issue.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
Violence may not be the answer, but it is a predictable reaction to apartheid.
Different than other resistence movements though is the more radical attempt by the Palistinian terror groups not only to reform Israel, but to destroy it.
Israel has had a major role in empowering Hamas by imcompetent overreaction to provacation. Collective punishment goes a long way in radicalizing the moderates.
at the same time no reaction does not do anything else. the governemtn still has to protect their people. it is their job. i believe that to find a solutaion we may need future generation to rise up and use their voice. of course, by the time that the youth do rise up it might be too late.
to be truthfull, i doubt that any talks will do anything. even if both government make a pact both sides will think that they gave in. i fthat happens we may have a war that is worse than now.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
I'm not asking anyone to get over it. but there needs to be a level of acceptance and then compromise. I'm not saying Israel is without fault by any means.
There is much room between no reaction and the Israeli approach to the west bank.
If your main strategic objective is to trade for peace and security you must preserve enough to make a bargin. For the last forty years Israel has been doing the opposite. Settlements in the west bank grow today. Palistinian moderates cannot believe Israel is serious about a deal.
yes, I agree. there are many illegal settlements that need to be given back. but going to the 1967 borders isn't going to happen. both sides need to meet in the middle. somehow, someway.
progress was made in 1993 in Oslo maybe it can happen again. but again, hamas wont recognize Israel or renounce violence. fatah does, now if we can only get hamas on board progress can be made.
I doubt you're involved in the negotions but declaring off the table what the international community recognizes as acceptable is no way to invite discussion.
The six day war was a defensive war and Isreal was justified in its preemptive strikes. (by no means is it comparable to unjustifiable bush preemptive war btw) Expansion of Israel's borders is offensive and it continues at this moment. No other country or international body besides Israel recognizes this expansion as legitimate. One must be from the United States not to recognize the pariah status of a settler state.
The starting point for any negotiations has been Palestinian peace in exchange for a real state with close to 1967 borders -certainly adjustments are part of the discussion. That was the case with the Geneva accords and seemingly in Oslo, though the details are disputed and by many accounts may have been worse or even designed to be unacceptable.
The towering fact of growing settlements leaves concern as to whether Israel's real objective is more land, or peace.
i agree but like i said before. both sides have to go over board or they will seem to be weak.
i don't agree but that is what i see.
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
- Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)
Is 3 generations better? how about 4? I don't know the answer but you have to put a number on it. if you go back far enough in history every nation on earth had someone else living there at one time who was forced out or destroyed. Sucks but thats the way it is. Dwell on the present and the future, not the (increasingly distant) past.
The very people that were forced out are here.