its not bait. you do applaud it. those innocent people deserve to die. its part of the resistance you support. if enough people die maybe Israel will get the point and give back all the land it sits on and move to Europe or Mongolia or the jungles of southeast asia.
I suppose you could condemn such acts, but why would you?
I won't give this bullshit the respect it doesn't deserve by properly responding to it.
I won't give this bullshit the respect it doesn't deserve by properly responding to it.
I have no idea why you keep avoiding it. you clearly support hamas. hamas's main tactics have been to kill innocent civilians. its all part of their resistance that you lovingly support.
Hamas preaches and engages in violence and terror in order to destroy the state of Israel and replace it with an Islamic state. Its virulent hatred of Jews and Judaism is deeply rooted in the anti-Semitic writings of Muslim Brotherhood theologians.
In August 1988, Hamas issued its Covenant laying down its ideological principles and goals. Replete with anti-Semitism, it echoes the notorious Protocols of the Elders of Zion and charges Jews with an international conspiracy to gain control of the world. In Hamas' worldview, Islamic precepts forbid a Jewish state in the area known as Palestine, the Jewish people have no legitimate connection to the land of Israel and Yasir Arafat is a traitor to the Islamic Palestinian cause. As the Hamas Covenant proclaims, "The land of Palestine is an Islamic trust... It is forbidden to anyone to yield or concede any part of it... Israel will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it..."
Terrorism and Violence:
Hamas launched its campaign of violence in 1989, first against Israeli soldiers and suspected Palestinian collaborators, and then against Israeli civilians. In the wake of the Oslo agreement, Hamas leaders intensified their rhetoric and vowed to derail the peace process through violent attacks. Drive-by shootings, firebombings and stabbings increased. Suicide missions began in April 1994, when a Hamas suicide bomber rammed an explosives-laden car into a bus in Afula killing eight and wounding 50 others.
Since that time Hamas has claimed responsibility for hundreds of attacks against Israeli civilian and military targets. Israeli security sources have thwarted scores more. Following Israel's unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, Hamas carried out dozens of rocket attacks against civilian targets in southern Israel.
feel free to post whatever links you want about Israel. I will call them out for being scumbags too. difference is, hamas can do no wrong in your eyes. pity.
I have no idea why you keep avoiding it. you clearly support hamas. hamas's main tactics have been to kill innocent civilians. its all part of their resistance that you lovingly support.
And when innocent palistinien people die at the hand of isreal's army that is ok by you?
Both sides kill innocent people. Niether's violence is a good thing.
But surely you can understand why there is a resistence against Isreal.
If people started occupying american land are you telling me for the sake of peace that you would lay down and take it, some how i really don't think that would happen. You would fight to get what is yours back.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
But your soldiers aren't being killed every day.
And I was asking you what you thought of the Palestinians. You say you don't think bad of them? What are your thoughts on the occupation?
i told you what my thoughts of the occupation were and are, and explained why sometimes Israel shoot innocent people, and i think its pretty much disgusting but thats their point, to show ppl Israel are the bad guys... look it up.
there are proofes, i can't find them but you could pretty much see what was the point.. every time they shot a missile they role it back to some poor family's garages or houses... i'm not saying the families soported them, i'm sure some families were afraid to resist.
I have no idea why you keep avoiding it. you clearly support hamas. hamas's main tactics have been to kill innocent civilians. its all part of their resistance that you lovingly support.
Hamas preaches and engages in violence and terror in order to destroy the state of Israel and replace it with an Islamic state. Its virulent hatred of Jews and Judaism is deeply rooted in the anti-Semitic writings of Muslim Brotherhood theologians.
In August 1988, Hamas issued its Covenant laying down its ideological principles and goals. Replete with anti-Semitism, it echoes the notorious Protocols of the Elders of Zion and charges Jews with an international conspiracy to gain control of the world. In Hamas' worldview, Islamic precepts forbid a Jewish state in the area known as Palestine, the Jewish people have no legitimate connection to the land of Israel and Yasir Arafat is a traitor to the Islamic Palestinian cause. As the Hamas Covenant proclaims, "The land of Palestine is an Islamic trust... It is forbidden to anyone to yield or concede any part of it... Israel will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it..."
Terrorism and Violence:
Hamas launched its campaign of violence in 1989, first against Israeli soldiers and suspected Palestinian collaborators, and then against Israeli civilians. In the wake of the Oslo agreement, Hamas leaders intensified their rhetoric and vowed to derail the peace process through violent attacks. Drive-by shootings, firebombings and stabbings increased. Suicide missions began in April 1994, when a Hamas suicide bomber rammed an explosives-laden car into a bus in Afula killing eight and wounding 50 others.
Since that time Hamas has claimed responsibility for hundreds of attacks against Israeli civilian and military targets. Israeli security sources have thwarted scores more. Following Israel's unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, Hamas carried out dozens of rocket attacks against civilian targets in southern Israel.
feel free to post whatever links you want about Israel. I will call them out for being scumbags too. difference is, hamas can do no wrong in your eyes. pity.
Have you spent all day trying to dig this crap up?
Nice effort!
Is this some off-shoot of the Israel lobby? "Let's all gang together and protest any criticism of Israel, and of Zionism!"
What a joke!
Arab Media Blames Israel, Jews For Palestinian Violence in Gaza
'New York, NY, June 18, 2007 … As Palestinian groups battled for control of Gaza, editorial cartoons appearing in newspapers across the Arab world blamed Israel for the violence with vicious anti-Semitic caricatures and motifs showing Jews as encouraging and mocking the strife between Palestinian rivals Hamas and Fatah.
Some cartoons even blamed Jews, Israel and the United States for playing a behind-the-scenes role in provoking the conflict, according to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), which monitors and exposes anti-Semitism in Muslim/Arab media.'
Of course, the Palestinian in-fighting has nothing to do with Israel, right?
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,489139,00.html 'Abbas's weekend maneuver means that there are now effectively two Palestinian governments -- the new West Bank cabinet as well as the old cabinet, now led from Gaza by Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, who has been in power since Hamas won a parliamentary election in early 2006. Although Abbas dismissed him from office, Haniyeh still considers himself the legitimate leader of the Palestinian Authority and accuses Abbas of cooperating in a US-led coup.
A few European leaders privately said they weren't sure what Abbas had done was legal, though, and some questioned the strategy of ghettoizing radical Hamas leaders and more than a million Palestinians in Gaza. "It may solve the problems of today, said one senior EU diplomat, according to Reuters. "But what about the future?"
I have no idea why you keep avoiding it. you clearly support hamas. hamas's main tactics have been to kill innocent civilians. its all part of their resistance that you lovingly support. .
please,
altough i don't entirely egree with what he has to say, but he repeatedly pointed out that he doesn't support suicidal bombers..
and also, i think [or hope] he sides with fatah cause its their right to object the occupation by the means they have..
i would be offensed by that too..
be nice to each other? :] we all want a happy ending..
That's easy, just toss a dirty blood stained sheet over him and pretend he's a corpse..
oh come on people, do you really belive Israel care only for itself alone? u really believe we don't care hurting innocent ppl [no metter who or what age]? come on.
oh come on people, do you really belive Israel care only for itself alone? u really believe we don't care hurting innocent ppl [no metter who or what age]? come on.
A lot of soldiers seem to get carried away. Have you seen the documentary Checkpoint 2003? The extreme restrictions imposed makes it very difficult to function as a human being. There is a sense of desperation. Desperate people do desperate things. When you crush the human spirit beyond repair, very dark things begin to happen like suicide retaliation.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
oh come on people, do you really belive Israel care only for itself alone? u really believe we don't care hurting innocent ppl [no metter who or what age]? come on.
well, there are thousands of innocent people in jails, hundreds of whom are minors, and the worst part is there are no charges against them - meaning they don't even know what they are in jail for.
Everything you've said in this post is complete bullshit. Hamas weren't invited to the talks. Israel and the U.S refuse to negotiate with them.
If you have evidence to the contrary, then present it.
Funny how you managed to comment on all my posts except for the one where I stated that I was mistaken.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Neither is it acceptable to fire missiles into crowded residential streets, or to bulldoze someones home, or to shoot a six year old in the head for throwing stones at an armoured vehicle, e.t.c. But, hey! That's all just self-defence, right?
I never stated that Israel's methods of defending themselves was acceptable. Most of the time Israel's retalitory attacks are brutal and excessive. With that being said Israel does have the right to defend itself from terrorists.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
This is where you are wrong. One party is living in dire poverty and can hardly feed itself, let alone defend itself. While the other party is propped up by the worlds only superpower, and is currently in breach of over 60 U.N resolutions, including that calling the occupation of Palestine a war crime.
There is no level playing field there at all.
Level playing field or not Palestinians are equally responsible for the bloodshed. I do not condone Isreal's occupation nor their excessive means of defending themselves but this does not excuse Hamas, or any other organization, for the attacks they carry out on Israeli civilians. If they limited their attacks to Israeli military personal and locations I wouldn't find it acceptable, I don't approve of violence as a means reaching one's goals, but I can at least understand why they would do so. Targeting civilians is never acceptable, for either faction in this mess.
This is of course where you and I differ. I can definitely sympathize with the Palestinian people for the suffering they have had to endure but that is never a reason to resort to terrorism.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Fatah is a puppet government with as much validity to run Palestine as me.
They were put in place by Israel and the U.S who simply want to consolidate the stolen territories by paying off these corrupt, unelected officials.
You talk of 'terrorist elemnts? Israel is carrying out acts of terrorism on a daily basis. The occupation itself is an act of terrorism.
Hamas is a legitimate resistance movement.
I bet if we were talking about 1980's South Africa here, you'd be cheering on the Apartheid regime, and saying that Nelson Mandela and the ANC are preventing peace, and represent a radical element.
Fatah will never be supported by the average Palestinian citizen because, for one thing, the average Palestinian citizen isn't as brainwashed and deluded about the situation over there as you. They see it for what it is. The only party willing to stand up for the rights of the average citizen, and to not bow down to the U.S and Israels greed, and corruption, is Hamas. Fatah, and Abbas are a joke. But you can bet they're being well looked after. The U.S has just given them $45 million for starters. A nice little backhander, ay? Unfortunately, whatever Abbas and his crowd agree to give away to Israel and the U.S, it won't achieve anything but more bloodshed in the long term. Fatah, therefore, is the problem here, not Hamas.
Well first thank you for calling me brainwashed and deluded. Insulting someone is always a great way to start off a debate. Really shows the level of maturity. Second I agree that Fatah is plaqued by corruption and that the average Palestinian citizen grows weary of this and their inability to stand up against Israel and it's interests. Hamas though is not a legitamate resistance movement. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The minute they decided to attack Isreali civilians they forfeited any and all respectability. In my opinion both bparties are the problem. Both parties have an agenda and the best interest of the average Palestinians is not on the top of that list. Fatah is inept and corrupt while Hamas has no interest is peace with Israel.
As far as you comment about South Africa, while I think apartheid is diplorable I will never condone violant actions against citizens as a means of resistance. I definetly supported the struggle of blacks in South Africa but not necessarily their actions.
You may find such actions as acceptable but in my opinion they are barbaric and make the oppressed no better than they oppressor.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I do not condone Isreal's occupation nor their excessive means of defending themselves but this does not excuse Hamas, or any other organization, for the attacks they carry out on Israeli civilians.
Did you hear about a little scuffle that occured last year between Israel and Lebanon? About 1000 Lebanese civilians were killed. Oh, nevermind. I'm veering off track here. This is about Palestinian civilians being killed, right?
Palestinians Mourn Civilians Killed by Israel http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/10/world/middleeast/10mideast.html
'BEIT HANUN, Gaza, Nov. 9 — Palestinians marched in anger and mourning on Thursday for 18 civilians killed by Israeli artillery — baring for cameras the battered faces of two dead children.'
Civilians killed in Israeli raid http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/13/news/hamas.php
'GAZA: Israelis killed ten Palestinians, including two children, and wounded 30 in a missile strike on Tuesday on a van carrying militants and rockets in Gaza, the deadliest such attack in nearly four years.'
Palestinians bury 18 civilians killed in Israeli artillery attack http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-11-09-israel-palestinians_x.htm
'BEIT HANOUN, Gaza Strip (AP) — Tens of thousands of grief-stricken, furious Gazans flocked to an artillery-scarred cluster of apartment buildings in the town of Beit Hanoun on Thursday to mourn 18 civilians killed when a barrage of Israeli shells tore through their homes.'
Deadliest Year in Palestinian Territories Since 1967 War http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0101-01.htm
'A total of 345 Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli security forces in the territories during the course of the year, of whom 38 were under the age of 15.
It was also one of the deadliest years for Israelis living within the country's 1967 borders, according to the report. Seventy-nine Israeli civilians were killed within the 'Green Line' by Palestinians during the year.'
Gaza women killed in mosque siege http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6112386.stm
'Two women have been killed as Israeli troops opened fire on a crowd of women gathered to help besieged gunmen flee a mosque in Beit Hanoun in northern Gaza.'
Did you hear about a little scuffle that occured last year between Israel and Lebanon? About 1000 Lebanese civilians were killed. Oh, nevermind. I'm veering off track here. This is about Palestinian civilians being killed, right?
Palestinians Mourn Civilians Killed by Israel http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/10/world/middleeast/10mideast.html
'BEIT HANUN, Gaza, Nov. 9 — Palestinians marched in anger and mourning on Thursday for 18 civilians killed by Israeli artillery — baring for cameras the battered faces of two dead children.'
Civilians killed in Israeli raid http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/13/news/hamas.php
'GAZA: Israelis killed ten Palestinians, including two children, and wounded 30 in a missile strike on Tuesday on a van carrying militants and rockets in Gaza, the deadliest such attack in nearly four years.'
Deadliest Year in Palestinian Territories Since 1967 War http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0101-01.htm
'A total of 345 Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli security forces in the territories during the course of the year, of whom 38 were under the age of 15.
It was also one of the deadliest years for Israelis living within the country's 1967 borders, according to the report. Seventy-nine Israeli civilians were killed within the 'Green Line' by Palestinians during the year.'
Gaza women killed in mosque siege http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6112386.stm
'Two women have been killed as Israeli troops opened fire on a crowd of women gathered to help besieged gunmen flee a mosque in Beit Hanoun in northern Gaza.'
Yes and if you would like me to I can try to dig up my posts on the matter and how I criticized Israel on an almost daily basis.
We both agree that Israel is exsesive and that their occupation is in the wrong. There really is no need to futher debate that point because we are in accord. The difference of opinion lies in the way we view Hamas and in the way certain Palestinian organization use violence against Israeli citizens as a means of resistence.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I do not condone Isreal's occupation nor their excessive means of defending themselves but this does not excuse Hamas, or any other organization, for the attacks they carry out on Israeli civilians.
Targeting civilians is never acceptable, for either faction in this mess.
Take a look at this one and tell me if you think the infant with no head was a viable target for an Israeli shell.
Do you enjoy beating a dead horse? How many times and in different wording do I have to say that I agree with you that Israeli is brutal and excessive in their retalitory attacks.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Yes and if you would like me to I can try to dig up my posts on the matter and how I criticized Israel on an almost daily basis.
We both agree that Israel is exsesive and that their occupation is in the wrong. There really is no need to futher debate that point because we are in accord. The difference of opinion lies in the way we view Hamas and in the way certain Palestinian organization use violence against Israeli citizens as a means of resistence.
O.k, you wanna know what I think? I think that any citizen living in the occupied territories is a viable target. I don't agree that civilians living behind the 1967 borders are a viable target, but those living on stolen land would be naieve to think they aren't provoking a retaliatory attack from those whose land they've stolen. And I blame the Israeli and U.S governments for putting these peoples lives in danger by encouraging the illegal settlements.
O.k, you wanna know what I think? I think that any citizen living in the occupied territories is a viable target. I don't agree that civilians living behind the 1967 borders are a viable target, but those living on stolen land would be naieve to think they aren't provoking a retaliatory attack from those whose land they've stolen. And I blame the Israeli and U.S governments for putting these peoples lives in danger by encouraging the illegal settlements.
I disagree. While the occupation is wrong targeting civilians is never acceptable in my book. They want to target Israeli military personel or instalations in these areas, I can understand that, but never civilians. And while the US and Israel are responsible for the illegal occupation, the attackers are also responsible for their actions. No one is forcing them to blow up buses or cafes or market places. Just as Israel and the US should be held accountable for their actions so should the terrorists. No one is without fault.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Do you enjoy beating a dead horse? How many times and in different wording do I have to say that I agree with you that Israeli is brutal and excessive in their retalitory attacks.
And there's a reason I go on about this issue as much as I do. I think it represents the core of U.S - and largely western - hypocrisy and corruption in the world. It's the main flame fuelling much of the strife across the western world. It's a perfect example of our double standards and of the subservience of the media to big business and the government.
I disagree. While the occupation is wrong targeting civilians is never acceptable in my book. They want to target Israeli military personel or instalations in these areas, I can understand that, but never civilians. And while the US and Israel are responsible for the illegal occupation, the attackers are also responsible for their actions. No one is forcing them to blow up buses or cafes or market places. Just as Israel and the US should be held accountable for their actions so should the terrorists. No one is without fault.
I don't actually agree with targeting civilians either. But I can understand why those in the occupied territories are seen as legitimate targets. These people knowingly move onto land which they know has been stolen from others. Their simply being there is almost an act of agression in itself.
And there's a reason I go on about this issue as much as I do. I think it represents the core of U.S - and largely western - hypocrisy and corruption in the world. It's the main flame fuelling much of the strife across the western world. It's a perfect example of our double standards and of the subservience of the media to big business and the government.
But you are preaching to the choir. I agree with you on this point. Israel has largly been held unaccoutable for their actions while the Palestinians, in the US mostly, shoulder all the responsibility for the situation there.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I don't actually agree with targeting civilians either. But I can understand why those in the occupied territories are seen as legitimate targets. These people knowingly move onto land which they know has been stolen from others. Their simply being there is almost an act of agression in itself.
I understand why they are targeted but I will never be able to accept it. I believe that if these Palestinian organizations refrained from attacking Israeli civilians there would be no way that countries like the US could publically be able to support Israel's actions.
Lokk at the civil rights movement here in the states. had they resorted to violence and attacking white people the movement would not have accomplished anything. It would have only aided in further segregating and dehumanizing of the black population here. Since it was a peaceful movement and the oppressors almost always resorted to violence the movement gained support.
I'm not saying that the Palestinians need to sit around singing Kumbaya My Lord while Israeli tanks shells rain down on them, but definitely refrain from targeting civilians.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Avoiding it? Kind of like how you have avoided many of his posts in this topic including the one above the one you just quoted that responded to your post?
I have and will continue to call out Israel when they are in the wrong. so you for to say I ignore Israel is pure bullshit. Israel is illegally occupying some land. Israel shouldn't have secret prisons. Israel retaliates much to harshly to hamas resistance.
That's the thing. You don't understand what I'm trying to say. I never said you agree with everything israel does. The thing about you, however, is (I feel like I repeat myself way too often) that you post an entire article and condemn everything Hamas does and stands for and your post is made up of just you attacking Hamas (and Byrnzie...) and then you throw in a little sentence that says "Oh, and Israel is wrong too." just to prove you "aren't biased." That's what the news media does, and that's what you do. It's wrong in both cases, and pretty much bullshit.
An example is your last post where you posted an entire thing abotu Hamas, and then threw in:
feel free to post whatever links you want about Israel. I will call them out for being scumbags too. difference is, hamas can do no wrong in your eyes. pity.
hamas ideology along with other islamic extremist groups is to kill themselves in the name of allah.
There aren't any such things as Israeli extremist groups or anything. That'd just be ridiculous. Only Muslims have extremist groups that kill themselves and civilians in the name of God. Not to mention the fact that they are trying to get their land and homes back. And stop an occupation that's claimed thousands of lives, and jailed countless more.
You act as if they have alternative ways to get their land back. Like they choose to do it this way.
Israel is getting along just fine with fatah and the ENTIRE west bank. don't tell me Israel isnt capable of peace. up until this point hamas is not.
Quit avoiding Byrnzie's posts. He replied to this.
first of all, I'll say whatever the fuck I want.
uh, go ahead. I wasn't actually telling you you aren't allowed to say what you want. I was trying to say what you are saying is false, and so you shouldn't say it anymore. If you don't mind spitting out bullshit, by all means do it. Just understand that at the end of the day, it's bullshit.
second of all, hamas is the only party preventing peace.
That's the funny thing. You sit here pretending you aren't biased and just talk about how Israel is wrong too, but then just say something like this, which is completely untrue, and you know it. (unless you're just an idiot, but I like to hope that the poeple I debate with aren't idiots, otherwise i'm wasting my time here.)
Israel has a right to exist regardless if you, byzine and hamas don't believe so. and I'm allow an opinion too, a valid one.
Neither me, nor ByRnzie, nor anyone said Israel doesn't have the right to exist. right now, when we refer to israel, we refer to the government and it's occupation that it has placed over Palestine. Not the people, not the "jews" (since I feel like you also sometimes try to make us out to be anti-semetic) and not any innocent people in Israel. Only the poeple that have violated many war crimes, and has played a role in the occupation do I see as wrong, and doesn't have the right to exist.
Once you understand that, AND PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT SO I DON'T HAVE TO WRITE THE SAME SHIT AGAIN, maybe you'll get what we are trying to say.
And I never said you aren't allowed an opinion. I just think you got your facts wrong.
Now, I'm really sick of saying this, and I didn't want this post to be too long, but you guys seriously need to understand this:
All I ever hear in criticism of Israel is "excessive defense attacks" when many of their attacks are not in defense, but offensive attacks. Byrnzie has posted tons of examples to this. You guys always seem to miss this point. Israel does not always defend itself, and most of the time it provokes the Palestinians.
Also, seeing as how Israel has targeted, jailed, and killed way more civilians, why are they not considered 'terrorists'? Isn't that what a 'terrorist' is? How come only Hamas are the 'terrorists' and Israel is just 'defending itself, but a little too much'?
Additionally, mammasan, I don't really think this is comparable to the Civil Rights movement at all. Blacks at the time were fighting so that there would be no more segregation, they weren't fighting for land and they weren't trying to get their homes back. It's a different situation.
It's more comparable to many of the comparisons that have been made in this topic that jlew shrugged off as "different time, different land, different people" or some other bullshit of that sort.
you goddamn right it is. I'm not going to waste my time breaking down your every sentence of what you like to call bullshit. its become a waste of time.
we can both sit here and reply to each other your posts with "this is all bullshit" and we wouldn't get to far would we?
Did you hear about a little scuffle that occured last year between Israel and Lebanon? About 1000 Lebanese civilians were killed. Oh, nevermind. I'm veering off track here. This is about Palestinian civilians being killed, right?
Palestinians Mourn Civilians Killed by Israel http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/10/world/middleeast/10mideast.html
'BEIT HANUN, Gaza, Nov. 9 — Palestinians marched in anger and mourning on Thursday for 18 civilians killed by Israeli artillery — baring for cameras the battered faces of two dead children.'
Civilians killed in Israeli raid http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/13/news/hamas.php
'GAZA: Israelis killed ten Palestinians, including two children, and wounded 30 in a missile strike on Tuesday on a van carrying militants and rockets in Gaza, the deadliest such attack in nearly four years.'
Palestinians bury 18 civilians killed in Israeli artillery attack http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-11-09-israel-palestinians_x.htm
'BEIT HANOUN, Gaza Strip (AP) — Tens of thousands of grief-stricken, furious Gazans flocked to an artillery-scarred cluster of apartment buildings in the town of Beit Hanoun on Thursday to mourn 18 civilians killed when a barrage of Israeli shells tore through their homes.'
Deadliest Year in Palestinian Territories Since 1967 War http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0101-01.htm
'A total of 345 Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli security forces in the territories during the course of the year, of whom 38 were under the age of 15.
It was also one of the deadliest years for Israelis living within the country's 1967 borders, according to the report. Seventy-nine Israeli civilians were killed within the 'Green Line' by Palestinians during the year.'
Gaza women killed in mosque siege http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6112386.stm
'Two women have been killed as Israeli troops opened fire on a crowd of women gathered to help besieged gunmen flee a mosque in Beit Hanoun in northern Gaza.'
these are all disgusting acts of terrorism. Israel should know better then to copy the tactics of hamas.
Comments
I won't give this bullshit the respect it doesn't deserve by properly responding to it.
I have no idea why you keep avoiding it. you clearly support hamas. hamas's main tactics have been to kill innocent civilians. its all part of their resistance that you lovingly support.
http://www.adl.org/main_israel/hamas_facts.htm
Ideology:
Hamas preaches and engages in violence and terror in order to destroy the state of Israel and replace it with an Islamic state. Its virulent hatred of Jews and Judaism is deeply rooted in the anti-Semitic writings of Muslim Brotherhood theologians.
In August 1988, Hamas issued its Covenant laying down its ideological principles and goals. Replete with anti-Semitism, it echoes the notorious Protocols of the Elders of Zion and charges Jews with an international conspiracy to gain control of the world. In Hamas' worldview, Islamic precepts forbid a Jewish state in the area known as Palestine, the Jewish people have no legitimate connection to the land of Israel and Yasir Arafat is a traitor to the Islamic Palestinian cause. As the Hamas Covenant proclaims, "The land of Palestine is an Islamic trust... It is forbidden to anyone to yield or concede any part of it... Israel will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it..."
Terrorism and Violence:
Hamas launched its campaign of violence in 1989, first against Israeli soldiers and suspected Palestinian collaborators, and then against Israeli civilians. In the wake of the Oslo agreement, Hamas leaders intensified their rhetoric and vowed to derail the peace process through violent attacks. Drive-by shootings, firebombings and stabbings increased. Suicide missions began in April 1994, when a Hamas suicide bomber rammed an explosives-laden car into a bus in Afula killing eight and wounding 50 others.
Since that time Hamas has claimed responsibility for hundreds of attacks against Israeli civilian and military targets. Israeli security sources have thwarted scores more. Following Israel's unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, Hamas carried out dozens of rocket attacks against civilian targets in southern Israel.
feel free to post whatever links you want about Israel. I will call them out for being scumbags too. difference is, hamas can do no wrong in your eyes. pity.
And when innocent palistinien people die at the hand of isreal's army that is ok by you?
Both sides kill innocent people. Niether's violence is a good thing.
But surely you can understand why there is a resistence against Isreal.
If people started occupying american land are you telling me for the sake of peace that you would lay down and take it, some how i really don't think that would happen. You would fight to get what is yours back.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
i told you what my thoughts of the occupation were and are, and explained why sometimes Israel shoot innocent people, and i think its pretty much disgusting but thats their point, to show ppl Israel are the bad guys... look it up.
there are proofes, i can't find them but you could pretty much see what was the point.. every time they shot a missile they role it back to some poor family's garages or houses... i'm not saying the families soported them, i'm sure some families were afraid to resist.
Have you spent all day trying to dig this crap up?
Nice effort!
Is this some off-shoot of the Israel lobby? "Let's all gang together and protest any criticism of Israel, and of Zionism!"
What a joke!
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASaw_14/5079_14.htm
Arab Media Blames Israel, Jews For Palestinian Violence in Gaza
'New York, NY, June 18, 2007 … As Palestinian groups battled for control of Gaza, editorial cartoons appearing in newspapers across the Arab world blamed Israel for the violence with vicious anti-Semitic caricatures and motifs showing Jews as encouraging and mocking the strife between Palestinian rivals Hamas and Fatah.
Some cartoons even blamed Jews, Israel and the United States for playing a behind-the-scenes role in provoking the conflict, according to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), which monitors and exposes anti-Semitism in Muslim/Arab media.'
Of course, the Palestinian in-fighting has nothing to do with Israel, right?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6927288.stm
'U.S Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has signed an agreement giving the Palestinian Authority $80m (£39m) to reform their security services.'
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,489139,00.html
'Abbas's weekend maneuver means that there are now effectively two Palestinian governments -- the new West Bank cabinet as well as the old cabinet, now led from Gaza by Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, who has been in power since Hamas won a parliamentary election in early 2006. Although Abbas dismissed him from office, Haniyeh still considers himself the legitimate leader of the Palestinian Authority and accuses Abbas of cooperating in a US-led coup.
A few European leaders privately said they weren't sure what Abbas had done was legal, though, and some questioned the strategy of ghettoizing radical Hamas leaders and more than a million Palestinians in Gaza. "It may solve the problems of today, said one senior EU diplomat, according to Reuters. "But what about the future?"
please,
altough i don't entirely egree with what he has to say, but he repeatedly pointed out that he doesn't support suicidal bombers..
and also, i think [or hope] he sides with fatah cause its their right to object the occupation by the means they have..
i would be offensed by that too..
be nice to each other? :] we all want a happy ending..
oh come on people, do you really belive Israel care only for itself alone? u really believe we don't care hurting innocent ppl [no metter who or what age]? come on.
A lot of soldiers seem to get carried away. Have you seen the documentary Checkpoint 2003? The extreme restrictions imposed makes it very difficult to function as a human being. There is a sense of desperation. Desperate people do desperate things. When you crush the human spirit beyond repair, very dark things begin to happen like suicide retaliation.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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( o.O)
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well, there are thousands of innocent people in jails, hundreds of whom are minors, and the worst part is there are no charges against them - meaning they don't even know what they are in jail for.
what do you think that is?
Funny how you managed to comment on all my posts except for the one where I stated that I was mistaken.
I never stated that Israel's methods of defending themselves was acceptable. Most of the time Israel's retalitory attacks are brutal and excessive. With that being said Israel does have the right to defend itself from terrorists.
Level playing field or not Palestinians are equally responsible for the bloodshed. I do not condone Isreal's occupation nor their excessive means of defending themselves but this does not excuse Hamas, or any other organization, for the attacks they carry out on Israeli civilians. If they limited their attacks to Israeli military personal and locations I wouldn't find it acceptable, I don't approve of violence as a means reaching one's goals, but I can at least understand why they would do so. Targeting civilians is never acceptable, for either faction in this mess.
This is of course where you and I differ. I can definitely sympathize with the Palestinian people for the suffering they have had to endure but that is never a reason to resort to terrorism.
I saw that one too late. Apologies.
Well first thank you for calling me brainwashed and deluded. Insulting someone is always a great way to start off a debate. Really shows the level of maturity. Second I agree that Fatah is plaqued by corruption and that the average Palestinian citizen grows weary of this and their inability to stand up against Israel and it's interests. Hamas though is not a legitamate resistance movement. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The minute they decided to attack Isreali civilians they forfeited any and all respectability. In my opinion both bparties are the problem. Both parties have an agenda and the best interest of the average Palestinians is not on the top of that list. Fatah is inept and corrupt while Hamas has no interest is peace with Israel.
As far as you comment about South Africa, while I think apartheid is diplorable I will never condone violant actions against citizens as a means of resistance. I definetly supported the struggle of blacks in South Africa but not necessarily their actions.
You may find such actions as acceptable but in my opinion they are barbaric and make the oppressed no better than they oppressor.
Did you hear about a little scuffle that occured last year between Israel and Lebanon? About 1000 Lebanese civilians were killed. Oh, nevermind. I'm veering off track here. This is about Palestinian civilians being killed, right?
Palestinian children pay price of Israel's Summer Rain offensive
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1866460,00.html
'Rights group says 197 civilians have been killed in military operation, including 48 minors'
Palestinians Mourn Civilians Killed by Israel
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/10/world/middleeast/10mideast.html
'BEIT HANUN, Gaza, Nov. 9 — Palestinians marched in anger and mourning on Thursday for 18 civilians killed by Israeli artillery — baring for cameras the battered faces of two dead children.'
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/English/2006/47-2006.htm
Seven Palestinian civilians killed on Gaza beach
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jun2006/isra-j12.shtml
Civilians killed in Israeli raid
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/13/news/hamas.php
'GAZA: Israelis killed ten Palestinians, including two children, and wounded 30 in a missile strike on Tuesday on a van carrying militants and rockets in Gaza, the deadliest such attack in nearly four years.'
Four Palestinians killed in IDF raid in Gaza Strip
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905702.html
Palestinians bury 18 civilians killed in Israeli artillery attack
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-11-09-israel-palestinians_x.htm
'BEIT HANOUN, Gaza Strip (AP) — Tens of thousands of grief-stricken, furious Gazans flocked to an artillery-scarred cluster of apartment buildings in the town of Beit Hanoun on Thursday to mourn 18 civilians killed when a barrage of Israeli shells tore through their homes.'
3 Palestinian civilians killed by IOF in the West Bank
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905702.html
AT LEAST SEVEN PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS KILLED BY ISRAELI SHELLS IN GAZA
http://www.allbusiness.com/government/3707917-1.html
Deadliest Year in Palestinian Territories Since 1967 War
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0101-01.htm
'A total of 345 Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli security forces in the territories during the course of the year, of whom 38 were under the age of 15.
It was also one of the deadliest years for Israelis living within the country's 1967 borders, according to the report. Seventy-nine Israeli civilians were killed within the 'Green Line' by Palestinians during the year.'
Israeli missiles hit house in Gaza.
http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=24514
Gaza women killed in mosque siege
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6112386.stm
'Two women have been killed as Israeli troops opened fire on a crowd of women gathered to help besieged gunmen flee a mosque in Beit Hanoun in northern Gaza.'
Yes and if you would like me to I can try to dig up my posts on the matter and how I criticized Israel on an almost daily basis.
We both agree that Israel is exsesive and that their occupation is in the wrong. There really is no need to futher debate that point because we are in accord. The difference of opinion lies in the way we view Hamas and in the way certain Palestinian organization use violence against Israeli citizens as a means of resistence.
Take a look at this one and tell me if you think the infant with no head was a viable target for an Israeli shell.
http://www.answering-islam.com/pali_torture.htm
Do you enjoy beating a dead horse? How many times and in different wording do I have to say that I agree with you that Israeli is brutal and excessive in their retalitory attacks.
O.k, you wanna know what I think? I think that any citizen living in the occupied territories is a viable target. I don't agree that civilians living behind the 1967 borders are a viable target, but those living on stolen land would be naieve to think they aren't provoking a retaliatory attack from those whose land they've stolen. And I blame the Israeli and U.S governments for putting these peoples lives in danger by encouraging the illegal settlements.
I disagree. While the occupation is wrong targeting civilians is never acceptable in my book. They want to target Israeli military personel or instalations in these areas, I can understand that, but never civilians. And while the US and Israel are responsible for the illegal occupation, the attackers are also responsible for their actions. No one is forcing them to blow up buses or cafes or market places. Just as Israel and the US should be held accountable for their actions so should the terrorists. No one is without fault.
And there's a reason I go on about this issue as much as I do. I think it represents the core of U.S - and largely western - hypocrisy and corruption in the world. It's the main flame fuelling much of the strife across the western world. It's a perfect example of our double standards and of the subservience of the media to big business and the government.
I don't actually agree with targeting civilians either. But I can understand why those in the occupied territories are seen as legitimate targets. These people knowingly move onto land which they know has been stolen from others. Their simply being there is almost an act of agression in itself.
But you are preaching to the choir. I agree with you on this point. Israel has largly been held unaccoutable for their actions while the Palestinians, in the US mostly, shoulder all the responsibility for the situation there.
I understand why they are targeted but I will never be able to accept it. I believe that if these Palestinian organizations refrained from attacking Israeli civilians there would be no way that countries like the US could publically be able to support Israel's actions.
Lokk at the civil rights movement here in the states. had they resorted to violence and attacking white people the movement would not have accomplished anything. It would have only aided in further segregating and dehumanizing of the black population here. Since it was a peaceful movement and the oppressors almost always resorted to violence the movement gained support.
I'm not saying that the Palestinians need to sit around singing Kumbaya My Lord while Israeli tanks shells rain down on them, but definitely refrain from targeting civilians.
Avoiding it? Kind of like how you have avoided many of his posts in this topic including the one above the one you just quoted that responded to your post?
That's the thing. You don't understand what I'm trying to say. I never said you agree with everything israel does. The thing about you, however, is (I feel like I repeat myself way too often) that you post an entire article and condemn everything Hamas does and stands for and your post is made up of just you attacking Hamas (and Byrnzie...) and then you throw in a little sentence that says "Oh, and Israel is wrong too." just to prove you "aren't biased." That's what the news media does, and that's what you do. It's wrong in both cases, and pretty much bullshit.
An example is your last post where you posted an entire thing abotu Hamas, and then threw in:
There aren't any such things as Israeli extremist groups or anything. That'd just be ridiculous. Only Muslims have extremist groups that kill themselves and civilians in the name of God. Not to mention the fact that they are trying to get their land and homes back. And stop an occupation that's claimed thousands of lives, and jailed countless more.
You act as if they have alternative ways to get their land back. Like they choose to do it this way.
Quit avoiding Byrnzie's posts. He replied to this.
uh, go ahead. I wasn't actually telling you you aren't allowed to say what you want. I was trying to say what you are saying is false, and so you shouldn't say it anymore. If you don't mind spitting out bullshit, by all means do it. Just understand that at the end of the day, it's bullshit.
That's the funny thing. You sit here pretending you aren't biased and just talk about how Israel is wrong too, but then just say something like this, which is completely untrue, and you know it. (unless you're just an idiot, but I like to hope that the poeple I debate with aren't idiots, otherwise i'm wasting my time here.)
Neither me, nor ByRnzie, nor anyone said Israel doesn't have the right to exist. right now, when we refer to israel, we refer to the government and it's occupation that it has placed over Palestine. Not the people, not the "jews" (since I feel like you also sometimes try to make us out to be anti-semetic) and not any innocent people in Israel. Only the poeple that have violated many war crimes, and has played a role in the occupation do I see as wrong, and doesn't have the right to exist.
Once you understand that, AND PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT SO I DON'T HAVE TO WRITE THE SAME SHIT AGAIN, maybe you'll get what we are trying to say.
And I never said you aren't allowed an opinion. I just think you got your facts wrong.
Now, I'm really sick of saying this, and I didn't want this post to be too long, but you guys seriously need to understand this:
All I ever hear in criticism of Israel is "excessive defense attacks" when many of their attacks are not in defense, but offensive attacks. Byrnzie has posted tons of examples to this. You guys always seem to miss this point. Israel does not always defend itself, and most of the time it provokes the Palestinians.
Also, seeing as how Israel has targeted, jailed, and killed way more civilians, why are they not considered 'terrorists'? Isn't that what a 'terrorist' is? How come only Hamas are the 'terrorists' and Israel is just 'defending itself, but a little too much'?
Additionally, mammasan, I don't really think this is comparable to the Civil Rights movement at all. Blacks at the time were fighting so that there would be no more segregation, they weren't fighting for land and they weren't trying to get their homes back. It's a different situation.
It's more comparable to many of the comparisons that have been made in this topic that jlew shrugged off as "different time, different land, different people" or some other bullshit of that sort.
This post was longer than I wanted it to be...
you goddamn right it is. I'm not going to waste my time breaking down your every sentence of what you like to call bullshit. its become a waste of time.
we can both sit here and reply to each other your posts with "this is all bullshit" and we wouldn't get to far would we?
praise allah
these are all disgusting acts of terrorism. Israel should know better then to copy the tactics of hamas.
I think I just found a new signature. Can I quote you?
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
http://endtheoccupation.org/downloads/disengagement%20flyer.pdf
http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizations/uscampaign/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=12265
This is what we are protesting...
http://www.answering-islam.com/pali_torture.htm
http://endtheoccupation.org/downloads/disengagement%20flyer.pdf