Hilary Clinton proposes 401(k)s, matching funds

Yoyoyo

jlew24asu wrote:

I gave you a perfectly good example why you are wrong. Boeing and Airbus.

Airbus is a French company, global production competition is not coming from the French.

Boeing's #1 customer? The American military...

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

Mestophar wrote:

Airbus is a French company, global production competition is not coming from the French. ...

it was, before Airbus fucked up with that new plane. Airbus is more of a joint venture between members of the EU than a french company. And with all the chefs in the kitchen, Airbus can't get it together.


Its cheaper to build inferior products in China, where workers are easily exploited. Americans like to actually get paid for work. Thats why America doesn't make anything anymore. American products (what little there is) are hardly inferior to CHinese products.

jlew24asu

Mestophar wrote:

Airbus is a French company, global production competition is not coming from the French.

its not? since when

Mestophar wrote:

Boeing's #1 customer? The American military...

#1 seller of domestic airliners around the world. Boeing.

Yoyoyo

jeffbr wrote:

This is the same doom and gloom anti-capitalists have been spewing for decades, as our markets have continued to reach record levels. If it makes you feel better, carry on. But the reality is that talking about domestic markets imploding only makes you sound like chicken little. Jlew talked about Boeing. The EU is scareled shitless of Microsoft's success and has tried to punish efficiency and innovation through financial sanctions. There are many inneficiencies in manufacturing in this country thanks to unions, but innovation and technology continues to be advanced here and exported.

What is anti-capatalist about admitting the US is not capable of advanced, efficient production? Many technology corporate CEOs will tell you that the Chinese have the expertise to produce hardware and India has the expertise and efficiency to produce software. Microsoft itself outsources a large portion of its developement to India, and rightfully so seeing as they will/can guarantee quality.

As for markets reaching record levels.. did you learn nothing from the "tech-bubble" growing to record levels and eventually bursting not long ago?

jlew24asu

MrSmith wrote:

it was, before Airbus fucked up with that new plane. Airbus is more of a joint venture between members of the EU than a french company. And with all the chefs in the kitchen, Airbus can't get it together.

thats correct. airbus is opened by EADS

The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company EADS N.V. (EADS) is a large European aerospace corporation

MrSmith wrote:

Its cheaper to build inferior products in China, where workers are easily exploited. Americans like to actually get paid for work. Thats why America doesn't make anything anymore. American products (what little there is) are hardly inferior to CHinese products.

exactly right smithy. very good point.

Yoyoyo

jlew24asu wrote:

its not? since when



#1 seller of domestic airliners around the world. Boeing.

Lets find a company that is not government subsidized...

And a company that doesn't get a large portion of its electronic components engineered and produced by the Chinese.

jlew24asu

Mestophar wrote:

What is anti-capatalist about admitting the US is not capable of advanced, efficient production?

ok then I guess its anti american becuase you are completely wrong. and have given no evidence to prove your claim

Mestophar wrote:

Many technology corporate CEOs will tell you that the Chinese have the expertise to produce hardware and India has the expertise and efficiency to produce software.

name one.

Mestophar wrote:

Microsoft itself outsources a large portion of its developement to India, and rightfully so seeing as they will/can guarantee quality.

wow thats simply not true. the only thing outsourced, for the most part, is technical support. labor is cheaper, thats all.

Mestophar wrote:

As for markets reaching record levels.. did you learn nothing from the "tech-bubble" growing to record levels and eventually bursting not long ago?

yup, and this time its not a bubble. its sastained growth from companies with tangilble evidence. and tech companies are actually catching up to their potential. it took 7 years but we are getting there. its a bubble you say? NASDAQ is still half the value it was when the bubble burst. DOW is only at record highs because its 30 stocks.

jlew24asu

Mestophar wrote:

Lets find a company that is not government subsidized...

And a company that doesn't get a large portion of its electronic components engineered and produced by the Chinese.

smith already touched on it. chinese only produce things because people are paid 1 dollar a day to do so. quality is not better. most of things being produced are american innovations.

jeffbr

Mestophar wrote:

What is anti-capatalist about admitting the US is not capable of advanced, efficient production? Many technology corporate CEOs will tell you that the Chinese have the expertise to produce hardware and India has the expertise and efficiency to produce software. Microsoft itself outsources a large portion of its developement to India, and rightfully so seeing as they will/can guarantee quality.

China is not doing itself any favors exporting low-quality and dangerous products. Many people are done buying Chinese.

Microsoft is a U.S. corporation. Lots of outsourcing of development and support to India where an abundance of cheap, educated labor can be found. But the money still comes back here. And there are tens of thousands of US based Microsoft employees, so I'm not sure I get your point. Of course China and India can produce hardware and software, but India isn't exactly a hotbed of innovation. They get to be the hired guns but are rarely part of the vision or creation of ideas. They get paid wages, but don't share in ownership the way it happens here. At some point they'll figure it out, but right now they're busy learning to speak with American accents, working for U.S. companies, to support U.S. users of U.S. products.

Mestophar wrote:

As for markets reaching record levels.. did you learn nothing from the "tech-bubble" growing to record levels and eventually bursting not long ago?

Of course. I was right in the middle of it. I've done tech startups. I've been an officer in a publicly traded company. I understand about market growth, correction, and continued growth. Corrections have always occurred. Followed by new levels of growth. What part of that is incorrect?

Yoyoyo

jlew24asu wrote:

ok then I guess its anti american becuase you are completely wrong. and have given no evidence to prove your claim

name one.

wow thats simply not true. the only thing outsourced, for the most part, is technical support. labor is cheaper, thats all.

Hrm..pretty typical. Anti-American.. I guess you don't want discorse?

Bill Gates.

It is true. Whole programs for Microsoft are created in India by Indians for a hell of alot cheaper than could be done in the USA. Free markets are good at finding the best quality for the best price.

Yoyoyo

jeffbr wrote:

China is not doing itself any favors exporting low-quality and dangerous products. Many people are done buying Chinese.

Microsoft is a U.S. corporation. Lots of outsourcing of development and support to India where an abundance of cheap, educated labor can be found. But the money still comes back here. And there are tens of thousands of US based Microsoft employees, so I'm not sure I get your point. Of course China and India can produce hardware and software, but India isn't exactly a hotbed of innovation. They get to be the hired guns but are rarely part of the vision or creation of ideas. They get paid wages, but don't share in ownership the way it happens here. At some point they'll figure it out, but right now they're busy learning to speak with American accents, working for U.S. companies, to support U.S. users of U.S. products.



Of course. I was right in the middle of it. I've done tech startups. I've been an officer in a publicly traded company. I understand about market growth, correction, and continued growth. Corrections have always occurred. Followed by new levels of growth. What part of that is incorrect?

ROFL... share in ownership? How many working Americans are owners in the companies they work in? Sure you can own SOME stock in the company, or get options...but seriously nobody is getting rich programming anymore.

The pattern you are following dates back how far? How old is this pattern that your are putting so much faith in?

jeffbr

Mestophar wrote:

Hrm..pretty typical. Anti-American.. I guess you don't want to discorse?

Bill Gates.

It is true. Whole programs for Microsoft are created in India by Indians for a hell of alot cheaper than could be done in the USA. Free markets are good at finding the best quality for the best price.

They aren't created independently of the company here. They are given specific tasks with specific deliverables. The product groups are generally in the US, and the code-writing / testing is outsourced. They are not independently running any meaningful product groups out of India.

Kel Varnsen

Just curious about something. For all the people who complain about the heavy tax burden in the United States, how much exactly are you paying. IN Canada I am paying about 25% income tax (including things like EI and CPP). Plus a 1.2% yearly property tax and a 15% sales tax. Even with all these taxes I still live pretty comfortably. My understand was that tax rates in the US were considerably lower so I am surprised by all this complaining that taxes might be raised (especially if it could go to something that would help people)?

jeffbr

Mestophar wrote:

ROFL... share in ownership? How many working Americans are owners in the companies they work in? Sure you can own SOME stock in the company, or get options...but seriously nobody is getting rich programming anymore.

Yawn. You need to either look around or update your resume. There are plenty of opportunities to take risks and realize rewards in this country.

Mestophar wrote:

The pattern you are following dates back how far? How old is this pattern that your are putting so much faith in?

As old as the US economy, I suppose. The stock market has been a model of consistent growth since the beginning for those who invest long-term. I must be missing your point again, because I have no idea why this is a surprise to you.

jeffbr

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Just curious about something. For all the people who complain about the heavy tax burden in the United States, how much exactly are you paying. IN Canada I am paying about 25% income tax (including things like EI and CPP). Plus a 1.2% yearly property tax and a 15% sales tax. Even with all these taxes I still live pretty comfortably. My understand was that tax rates in the US were considerably lower so I am surprised by all this complaining that taxes might be raised (especially if it could go to something that would help people)?

Irrelevant.

Just because someone else pays more doesn't mean that the person paying less isn't paying too much.

And it is a basic philisophical difference between those who believe in equality of outcome vs. those who believe in individual liberty.

Yoyoyo

jeffbr wrote:

Yawn. You need to either look around or update your resume. There are plenty of opportunities to take risks and realize rewards in this country.



As old as the US economy, I suppose. The stock market has been a model of consistent growth since the beginning for those who invest long-term. I must be missing your point again, because I have no idea why this is a surprise to you.

"They get paid in wages, but don't share in ownership the way it happens here"

You said it man...you were talkin about risk and opportunity as related to having a job? Sure I understand other types of opportunity exist..but that's not what you were talking about. Are you confused?

My point is that the markets/consumption are not sustainable and certain one time factors existed in the economy that fuelled the growth that form the pattern you rely on.

Yoyoyo

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Just curious about something. For all the people who complain about the heavy tax burden in the United States, how much exactly are you paying. IN Canada I am paying about 25% income tax (including things like EI and CPP). Plus a 1.2% yearly property tax and a 15% sales tax. Even with all these taxes I still live pretty comfortably. My understand was that tax rates in the US were considerably lower so I am surprised by all this complaining that taxes might be raised (especially if it could go to something that would help people)?

Canadians are the true benefactors of the low US dollar. Most importing done by Canada is from the US, mostly low technology industrial processing machines(too expensive to ship from Germany, so second rate equipment is bought instead). And while exports are going to decrease in volume somewhat, most of the goods recieved from Canada are concidered essential to the US economy.

jeffbr

Mestophar wrote:

"They get paid in wages, but don't share in ownership the way it happens here"

You said it man...you were talkin about risk and opportunity as related to having a job? Sure I understand other types of opportunity exist..but that's not what you were talking about. Are you confused?

My point is that the markets/consumption are not sustainable and certain one time factors existed in the economy that fuelled the growth that form the pattern you rely on.

The pattern I rely on IS THE PATTERN. You make claims about the unsustainability of things - show me the historical data to support that. I can certainly show the historical data backing up the claim that the market continues to grow at a pretty constant rate over time as it always has, even with occasional corrections.

Yoyoyo

jeffbr wrote:

The pattern I rely on IS THE PATTERN. You make claims about the unsustainability of things - show me the historical data to support that. I can certainly show the historical data backing up the claim that the market continues to grow at a pretty constant rate over time as it always has, even with occasional corrections.

A large portion, timewise, of THE PATTERN that you use has had a stable currency linked to it. The growth of the past better represented the times and general prosperity of the country where as the current growth does not properly represent the value the economy as a whole. The price of stocks, and the markets increase while the underlying problems with the national debt and deficits are not addressed. The fed, in the last few months, have run out of options to control the spiral.

boxwine_in_hell

jlew24asu wrote:

fuck this plan. why should successful people be forced to pay for poor peoples retirement??


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071009/ap_po/clinton_retirement_accounts

At a cost of $20 billion-$25 billion a year, the plan is Clinton's largest domestic proposal other than her plan for universal health insurance. The New York senator said it would be paid for by taxing estates worth more than $7 million per couple and would help narrow the gap between the rich and those who don't have enough savings for retirement.

I say let Hilary fund some poor people's 401K's, sounds like a good idea to me. I agree though, why should you fund some lazy a-holes retirement because you're successful.