So you think humans would not find a way to adapt to changes in climate. I'd say it is safe to say that humans would find a way to adapt, it's in out nature to adapt. We've lived in all sorts of climates, from the Australian outback, Sahara Deserts, the Artic Circle to Trpoical Rainforests. I wonder what you've seen in human history to make you think we couldn't and wouldn't adapt.
what part of "mass extinction" don't you understand? a few more degrees of warming and the frozen methane pockets will melt sending tons of methane into the atmosphere. during the permian extinction; that rose the temperature another 5 degrees. londons climate was that of the sahara desert. with the ice caps melting ( and photos to prove it) the earth will lose thousands of acres of land. canada's frozen tundra will quickly melt and the ground stratify making canada a mass quick-sand pit. so where do you intend to live if you can adapt to breathing the new atmosphere? what do you intend to eat?
we were told about global warming and ignored it. now it is too late. yes; TOO LATE to reverse it. we need to start adapting now for a new earth. the polar bears are on their way to extinction and many more species will follow.
what part of "mass extinction" don't you understand? a few more degrees of warming and the frozen methane pockets will melt sending tons of methane into the atmosphere. during the permian extinction; that rose the temperature another 5 degrees. londons climate was that of the sahara desert. with the ice caps melting ( and photos to prove it) the earth will lose thousands of acres of land. canada's frozen tundra will quickly melt and the ground stratify making canada a mass quick-sand pit. so where do you intend to live if you can adapt to breathing the new atmosphere? what do you intend to eat?
we were told about global warming and ignored it. now it is too late. yes; TOO LATE to reverse it. we need to start adapting now for a new earth. the polar bears are on their way to extinction and many more species will follow.
I'm not sure I would say that it's too late. The earth can rehabilitate itself. Its been said, that it is very resilient, but it takes a lot of time to heal wounds, the only problem is that humans work quickly.
The Permian extinction was a different ball of wax, so I'm not sure that applies in this case and not so sure that the science suggests a climate of the Sahara. London wasn't really "London". The continents were joined and England was geographically oriented very differently.
I'm not necessarily a doomsdayer. I think humans are very resilient as well, but I'm more concerned about the planet as a whole meaning organisms beyond just humans.
co2 is directly related to climate change. co2 has been out of control lately and so has the Earth's temperature. Can you dispute that humans are 100% responsible for the skyrocketing co2 emmissions? My opinion is that humans are 100% responsible for the abnormal climate changes we're now experiencing and are about to experience. Obviously there are the normal shifts here and there but recent changes in climate are 100% human related, IMO.
a small correction here. more important than CO2 emmissions is that the earth HAD the ability to convert that CO2 into O2. trees and plants breathe in CO2 and exhale O2. we've killed a lot of those trees and plants in the name of building bigger houses; and other products. we've hybridized our vegetables so you cannot plant the seeds and get a decent vegetable out of it. i've been trying to find non-hybrid seeds and i'm having a hard time of it. the earthquake that caused the tsunami caused the earth to tilt slightly on it's axis. thus explaining the new climate changes; but that too will contribute to global warming. the polar ice cap is now slightly closer to the sun.
what we have now is an accumulation of errors. the ice caps will be melted within 25 years or less. the worlds glasiers are melting at an incredable rate as we speak. this is no longer 100 years from now. it's happening NOW. it already is too late for several species. once man dies off the earth will start to heal. but healing will take thousands of years.
I'm not sure I would say that it's too late. The earth can rehabilitate itself. Its been said, that it is very resilient, but it takes a lot of time to heal wounds, the only problem is that humans work quickly.
The Permian extinction was a different ball of wax, so I'm not sure that applies in this case and not so sure that the science suggests a climate of the Sahara. London wasn't really "London". The continents were joined and England was geographically oriented very differently.
I'm not necessarily a doomsdayer. I think humans are very resilient as well, but I'm more concerned about the planet as a whole meaning organisms beyond just humans.
i come from a family of scientists. i suggest you do some research and look at the evidence.
and let's not forget, if we have the means, we can drive whatever da hell we want. it is nobodys business WHY i have what i have!!
That is pure BS. You being a selfish, over-polluting idiot effects everybody else through the air pollution that you create and the oil wars you cause.
Its just like smoking in a restaurant, you can (someplaces) but that does not make it right.
The air, water and soil are OURS not yours. If you can't do the right thing for yourself, at least consider what kind of place you are creating for your kids.
Farmers, truckers, and people that adopt 7 kids need big cars. Most SUV drivers are compensating for the their small .........
We all walk the Long Road...
Charlotte & Raleigh Lollapalooza 1992, Charlotte Memorial 1996, Tibet Freedom Concert 1998, Raleigh & Greenville 1998, Greensboro 2000, Raleigh & Camden 2003, Asheville 2004, Camden 2006, DC 2008, Atlanta 2012 Charlottesville 2013, Charlotte 2013 Greenville, (XRaleighX) and Hampton 2016, London Hyde Park, Quebec City and Ottawa 2022, St Paul (hopefully) 2023
If I am incorrect. Please correct me. I have a degree in geography and am married to a biologist who comes from a line of biologists. This does not make me correct at all times nor does having a family of scientists make you infallible.
The Permian extinction occurred during the time of Pangea. One large continent looking much differnt than things are now right? London and the rest of the continents have shifted since. Secondly the cause of the extinctions are unclear. Climate change is one theory due to continent shifting, others include an asteroid which may have caused a major disturbance in oceanic composition re: salinisation etc, and another potential cause was volanic activity in siberia which may be related to climate change but may have increased the global temperature (through release of gasses) or lowered it from atmospheric sediments blown from volcanoes.
That is pure BS. You being a selfish, over-polluting idiot effects everybody else through the air pollution that you create and the oil wars you cause.
Its just like smoking in a restaurant, you can (someplaces) but that does not make it right.
The air, water and soil are OURS not yours. If you can't do the right thing for yourself, at least consider what kind of place you are creating for your kids.
Farmers, truckers, and people that adopt 7 kids need big cars. Most SUV drivers are compensating for the their small .........
He's not causing the wars.
MOSSAD NATO Alphabet Stations (E10)
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Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
If I am incorrect. Please correct me. I have a degree in geography and am married to a biologist who comes from a line of biologists. This does not make me correct at all times nor does having a family of scientists make you infallible.
The Permian extinction occurred during the time of Pangea. One large continent looking much differnt than things are now right? London and the rest of the continents have shifted since. Secondly the cause of the extinctions are unclear. Climate change is one theory due to continent shifting, others include an asteroid which may have caused a major disturbance in oceanic composition re: salinisation etc, and another potential cause was volanic activity in siberia which may be related to climate change but may have increased the global temperature (through release of gasses) or lowered it from atmospheric sediments blown from volcanoes.
the volcanic activity in siberia warmed the earth 5 degrees which thawed frozen methane; this increased the temperature another 5 degrees causing the extinction. proof was discovered in greenland in 1998.
"Son,.. small penises run in our family. One day you too will have an inferiority complex and feel to the need to buy an impratical car in order make up for the size of our dicks. With me in this puppy on the road, I can run over and smutt any joker who thinks he can laugh at the size of my penis... well, atleast we know we could run them off the road. This will Hummer will take the focus off my small penis. Bigger is better. Now lets get some Wendy's, biggy sized!"
the volcanic activity in siberia warmed the earth 5 degrees which thawed frozen methane; this increased the temperature another 5 degrees causing the extinction. proof was discovered in greenland in 1998.
Interesting. If you could provide me a source I'd be interested in reading it. As far as I understood it, it was still under a great amount of debate as to whether it was volcanic activity which could have led to either warmer or colder climate or whether it was a consequence of continental movement, or an asteroid. What was the proof discovered in Greenland? Also where was London oriented in Pangea? If it was closer to the equator, than it would not have been any surpise that it had the climate of the Sahara. There has been a LOT of plate movement since that time.
I've been taught that the leading theory was that an asteroid hit the earth (they've found a crater which confirms a hit at around the same time) which caused a hell of a lot of chaos in the oceans and especially in terms of mixing more dense salt water from deeper oceans into the shallower portions which disrupted much of life on earth.
Abortion on demand.
Legalization of drugs.
Re-educate and reform violent offenders.
yet…
That one law abiding citizen and the vehicle of their choice are the targets?
let's see ... how does someone having an abortion affect you?? ... how does someone smoking marijuana affect you?? ... answer: it doesn't
how does someone driving a polluting inefficient vehicle affect us? ... in air pollution and climate change ... again - this is the difference between people on the right and people on the left ... you only think of "me" - the only thing that matters is what is best for "me" ... if you consider the "we" - then, we might be able to make people understand ...
let's see ... how does someone having an abortion affect you?? ... how does someone smoking marijuana affect you?? ... answer: it doesn't
This is a perfect example of selfish shortsightedness. Everything we do - even our thoughts - affect people.
Here's just a bit to scratch the surface using the examples you sighted. Abortion and drugs both contribute to pollution. Now they affect others in many, many other ways much more profound but I thought I'd use terms you might understand.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
This is a perfect example of selfish shortsightedness. Everything we do - even our thoughts - affect people.
Here's just a bit to scratch the surface using the examples you sighted. Abortion and drugs both contribute to pollution. Now they affect others in many, many other ways much more profound but I thought I'd use terms you might understand.
have you answered the greenhouse effect question yet?? ... as is typical of your posts - they tend to be facetious in nature but lacking any substance ...
This is a perfect example of selfish shortsightedness. Everything we do - even our thoughts - affect people.
Here's just a bit to scratch the surface using the examples you sighted. Abortion and drugs both contribute to pollution. Now they affect others in many, many other ways much more profound but I thought I'd use terms you might understand.
To sorta go along the same stream as Polaris, how do thing examples listed affect the planet as a whole? Do we only care about consequences if they effect humans or do we care about issues that have a global consequence on things beyond people. What about long term sustainability of the planet which sustains human life?
have you answered the greenhouse effect question yet?? ... as is typical of your posts - they tend to be facetious in nature but lacking any substance ...
What was the greenhouse question again?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
does anyone doubt the science behind "the greenhouse effect"? ... if so - on what basis do you debunk this science?
I think it was this one. The logic is that if you accept that the greenhouse effect is true and you accept the fact that we emit billions of CO2 into the atmosphere than we must accept that we DO have a role in climate change.
I think it was this one. The logic is that if you accept that the greenhouse effect is true and you accept the fact that we emit billions of CO2 into the atmosphere than we must accept that we DO have a role in climate change.
OK - so polaris is asking this big blanket question about accepting the science behind the greenhouse effect? Now I see why I didn't answer it - it's not specific enough.
Here's what I think about the greenhouse effect. It does exist. I do not know that we can accurately measure the effect of humans on the ozone layer. Furthermore, I thought I just read recently that the hole in the ozone would be closed soon. Did humans change that much just in the past few years that the hole would close back up? I doubt they did and that's why I doubt how much impact we have on it.
Furthermore, I believe I've read that volcanic eruptions throw much more ozone depleting chemicals into the atmosphere than humans do, so even if we cut ours out completely, would it make much of a difference with regard to the greenhouse effect?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I think it was this one. The logic is that if you accept that the greenhouse effect is true and you accept the fact that we emit billions of CO2 into the atmosphere than we must accept that we DO have a role in climate change.
exactly ... all the naysayers keep bringing up the same tired stuff that has absolutely no relevance or substance ... it's like a crutch in a way ...
OK - so polaris is asking this big blanket question about accepting the science behind the greenhouse effect? Now I see why I didn't answer it - it's not specific enough.
Here's what I think about the greenhouse effect. It does exist. I do not know that we can accurately measure the effect of humans on the ozone layer. Furthermore, I thought I just read recently that the hole in the ozone would be closed soon. Did humans change that much just in the past few years that the hole would close back up? I doubt they did and that's why I doubt how much impact we have on it.
Furthermore, I believe I've read that volcanic eruptions throw much more ozone depleting chemicals into the atmosphere than humans do, so even if we cut ours out completely, would it make much of a difference with regard to the greenhouse effect?
how much more specific do you need it to be? The ozone layer has a nominal relevance when talking about the greenhouse effect ... this is why i implore people to educated themselves on the topic ... your response clearly shows you have not ...
But, seeing as you brought it up - since we banned the CFC's and other ozone depleting substances - guess what? ... the bloody thing healed ... is it just a coincidence? ... science have nothing to do with it?
OK - so polaris is asking this big blanket question about accepting the science behind the greenhouse effect? Now I see why I didn't answer it - it's not specific enough.
Here's what I think about the greenhouse effect. It does exist. I do not know that we can accurately measure the effect of humans on the ozone layer. Furthermore, I thought I just read recently that the hole in the ozone would be closed soon. Did humans change that much just in the past few years that the hole would close back up? I doubt they did and that's why I doubt how much impact we have on it.
Furthermore, I believe I've read that volcanic eruptions throw much more ozone depleting chemicals into the atmosphere than humans do, so even if we cut ours out completely, would it make much of a difference with regard to the greenhouse effect?
Wooooww... Okay, first off, ozone layer and greenhouse effect is two differnt things. Ozone layer has to do with cancer and unfiltered insolation, whereas greenhouse has to do with CO2, methane and other greenhouse gasses leading to climate change. Ozone has very little to do with climate change if any at all. Very different problem which does nothing to do with green house gasses but rather CFC's etc that were largely banned. I repeat, Ozone and Greenhouse are different beasts.
Secondly, about volcanic activity (I've mentioned this previously), the vast, vast majority of gas that is expelled from volcanoes is water vapour. Although, water vapour IS a greenhouse gas, it does not change the atmospheric composition. It condenses and rains. Furthermore, there is no huge spike after major eruptions in CO2 content in the atmosphere. Even in years of major eruptions there is no huge spike. Lastly, ice core samples taken from Antarctica have shown that the CO2 level is at its highest in 650000 years. During this time, volcanic activity has declined yet, CO2 has risen and only dramatically only recently. There is a negative correlation. Less volcanic activity, higher CO2.
how much more specific do you need it to be? The ozone layer has a nominal relevance when talking about the greenhouse effect ... this is why i implore people to educated themselves on the topic ... your response clearly shows you have not ...
But, seeing as you brought it up - since we banned the CFC's and other ozone depleting substances - guess what? ... the bloody thing healed ... is it just a coincidence? ... science have nothing to do with it?
By specific, I meant which part of the science behind the greenhouse effect are you referring to?
I do think humans contribute to climate change, but I am not convinced as to the scope of our contribution.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I think (Polaris correct me if I'm wrong) whether you accept whether this phenomenon is correct. Do you accept the process and the science that there are greenhouse gasses and that greenhouse gasses trap insolation and therefore heat the earth? Do you believe that if you add more greenhouse gasses, the greenhouse effect will be increased? Do you think that we are adding greenhouse gasses? Do you accept that we are adding billions of tons of greenhouse gasses while eliminating carbon sinks (deforestation or instance) and therefore altering the composition of the atmosphere? Has our output of CO2 increased and is continuing to increase while at the same time the natural mechanisms to remove or store carbon are being damaged or removed? Have we found an increase in CO2 levels in the atmosphere? If yes to any of these questions, than we cannot deny that we are having an adverse effect on our planet.
The portion of the atmosphere where greenhouse gasses is tiny. Extremely thin which makes it much more vulnerable to us.
Comments
what part of "mass extinction" don't you understand? a few more degrees of warming and the frozen methane pockets will melt sending tons of methane into the atmosphere. during the permian extinction; that rose the temperature another 5 degrees. londons climate was that of the sahara desert. with the ice caps melting ( and photos to prove it) the earth will lose thousands of acres of land. canada's frozen tundra will quickly melt and the ground stratify making canada a mass quick-sand pit. so where do you intend to live if you can adapt to breathing the new atmosphere? what do you intend to eat?
we were told about global warming and ignored it. now it is too late. yes; TOO LATE to reverse it. we need to start adapting now for a new earth. the polar bears are on their way to extinction and many more species will follow.
Legalization of drugs.
Re-educate and reform violent offenders.
yet…
That one law abiding citizen and the vehicle of their choice are the targets?
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
I'm not sure I would say that it's too late. The earth can rehabilitate itself. Its been said, that it is very resilient, but it takes a lot of time to heal wounds, the only problem is that humans work quickly.
The Permian extinction was a different ball of wax, so I'm not sure that applies in this case and not so sure that the science suggests a climate of the Sahara. London wasn't really "London". The continents were joined and England was geographically oriented very differently.
I'm not necessarily a doomsdayer. I think humans are very resilient as well, but I'm more concerned about the planet as a whole meaning organisms beyond just humans.
a small correction here. more important than CO2 emmissions is that the earth HAD the ability to convert that CO2 into O2. trees and plants breathe in CO2 and exhale O2. we've killed a lot of those trees and plants in the name of building bigger houses; and other products. we've hybridized our vegetables so you cannot plant the seeds and get a decent vegetable out of it. i've been trying to find non-hybrid seeds and i'm having a hard time of it. the earthquake that caused the tsunami caused the earth to tilt slightly on it's axis. thus explaining the new climate changes; but that too will contribute to global warming. the polar ice cap is now slightly closer to the sun.
what we have now is an accumulation of errors. the ice caps will be melted within 25 years or less. the worlds glasiers are melting at an incredable rate as we speak. this is no longer 100 years from now. it's happening NOW. it already is too late for several species. once man dies off the earth will start to heal. but healing will take thousands of years.
i come from a family of scientists. i suggest you do some research and look at the evidence.
That is pure BS. You being a selfish, over-polluting idiot effects everybody else through the air pollution that you create and the oil wars you cause.
Its just like smoking in a restaurant, you can (someplaces) but that does not make it right.
The air, water and soil are OURS not yours. If you can't do the right thing for yourself, at least consider what kind of place you are creating for your kids.
Farmers, truckers, and people that adopt 7 kids need big cars. Most SUV drivers are compensating for the their small .........
Charlotte & Raleigh Lollapalooza 1992, Charlotte Memorial 1996, Tibet Freedom Concert 1998, Raleigh & Greenville 1998, Greensboro 2000, Raleigh & Camden 2003, Asheville 2004, Camden 2006, DC 2008, Atlanta 2012 Charlottesville 2013, Charlotte 2013
Greenville, (XRaleighX) and Hampton 2016, London Hyde Park, Quebec City and Ottawa 2022, St Paul (hopefully) 2023
The Permian extinction occurred during the time of Pangea. One large continent looking much differnt than things are now right? London and the rest of the continents have shifted since. Secondly the cause of the extinctions are unclear. Climate change is one theory due to continent shifting, others include an asteroid which may have caused a major disturbance in oceanic composition re: salinisation etc, and another potential cause was volanic activity in siberia which may be related to climate change but may have increased the global temperature (through release of gasses) or lowered it from atmospheric sediments blown from volcanoes.
He's not causing the wars.
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
the volcanic activity in siberia warmed the earth 5 degrees which thawed frozen methane; this increased the temperature another 5 degrees causing the extinction. proof was discovered in greenland in 1998.
"Son,.. small penises run in our family. One day you too will have an inferiority complex and feel to the need to buy an impratical car in order make up for the size of our dicks. With me in this puppy on the road, I can run over and smutt any joker who thinks he can laugh at the size of my penis... well, atleast we know we could run them off the road. This will Hummer will take the focus off my small penis. Bigger is better. Now lets get some Wendy's, biggy sized!"
Einstien was my great uncle, so I know what the fuck I'm talking about! lol.
Interesting. If you could provide me a source I'd be interested in reading it. As far as I understood it, it was still under a great amount of debate as to whether it was volcanic activity which could have led to either warmer or colder climate or whether it was a consequence of continental movement, or an asteroid. What was the proof discovered in Greenland? Also where was London oriented in Pangea? If it was closer to the equator, than it would not have been any surpise that it had the climate of the Sahara. There has been a LOT of plate movement since that time.
I've been taught that the leading theory was that an asteroid hit the earth (they've found a crater which confirms a hit at around the same time) which caused a hell of a lot of chaos in the oceans and especially in terms of mixing more dense salt water from deeper oceans into the shallower portions which disrupted much of life on earth.
let's see ... how does someone having an abortion affect you?? ... how does someone smoking marijuana affect you?? ... answer: it doesn't
how does someone driving a polluting inefficient vehicle affect us? ... in air pollution and climate change ... again - this is the difference between people on the right and people on the left ... you only think of "me" - the only thing that matters is what is best for "me" ... if you consider the "we" - then, we might be able to make people understand ...
This is a perfect example of selfish shortsightedness. Everything we do - even our thoughts - affect people.
Here's just a bit to scratch the surface using the examples you sighted. Abortion and drugs both contribute to pollution. Now they affect others in many, many other ways much more profound but I thought I'd use terms you might understand.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
have you answered the greenhouse effect question yet?? ... as is typical of your posts - they tend to be facetious in nature but lacking any substance ...
To sorta go along the same stream as Polaris, how do thing examples listed affect the planet as a whole? Do we only care about consequences if they effect humans or do we care about issues that have a global consequence on things beyond people. What about long term sustainability of the planet which sustains human life?
http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/
It's very long but interesting. Here's a brief synopsis (I don't support the Reason Foundation)
http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml
What was the greenhouse question again?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I think it was this one. The logic is that if you accept that the greenhouse effect is true and you accept the fact that we emit billions of CO2 into the atmosphere than we must accept that we DO have a role in climate change.
OK - so polaris is asking this big blanket question about accepting the science behind the greenhouse effect? Now I see why I didn't answer it - it's not specific enough.
Here's what I think about the greenhouse effect. It does exist. I do not know that we can accurately measure the effect of humans on the ozone layer. Furthermore, I thought I just read recently that the hole in the ozone would be closed soon. Did humans change that much just in the past few years that the hole would close back up? I doubt they did and that's why I doubt how much impact we have on it.
Furthermore, I believe I've read that volcanic eruptions throw much more ozone depleting chemicals into the atmosphere than humans do, so even if we cut ours out completely, would it make much of a difference with regard to the greenhouse effect?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
exactly ... all the naysayers keep bringing up the same tired stuff that has absolutely no relevance or substance ... it's like a crutch in a way ...
how much more specific do you need it to be? The ozone layer has a nominal relevance when talking about the greenhouse effect ... this is why i implore people to educated themselves on the topic ... your response clearly shows you have not ...
But, seeing as you brought it up - since we banned the CFC's and other ozone depleting substances - guess what? ... the bloody thing healed ... is it just a coincidence? ... science have nothing to do with it?
Wooooww... Okay, first off, ozone layer and greenhouse effect is two differnt things. Ozone layer has to do with cancer and unfiltered insolation, whereas greenhouse has to do with CO2, methane and other greenhouse gasses leading to climate change. Ozone has very little to do with climate change if any at all. Very different problem which does nothing to do with green house gasses but rather CFC's etc that were largely banned. I repeat, Ozone and Greenhouse are different beasts.
Secondly, about volcanic activity (I've mentioned this previously), the vast, vast majority of gas that is expelled from volcanoes is water vapour. Although, water vapour IS a greenhouse gas, it does not change the atmospheric composition. It condenses and rains. Furthermore, there is no huge spike after major eruptions in CO2 content in the atmosphere. Even in years of major eruptions there is no huge spike. Lastly, ice core samples taken from Antarctica have shown that the CO2 level is at its highest in 650000 years. During this time, volcanic activity has declined yet, CO2 has risen and only dramatically only recently. There is a negative correlation. Less volcanic activity, higher CO2.
By specific, I meant which part of the science behind the greenhouse effect are you referring to?
I do think humans contribute to climate change, but I am not convinced as to the scope of our contribution.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The portion of the atmosphere where greenhouse gasses is tiny. Extremely thin which makes it much more vulnerable to us.