Example of Muslim Leadership Part II

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  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    yosi wrote:
    Now, I'm going to go out and ask something with admitted ignorance, so please, just try and answer with respect, as someone who wants to know, and not provoke, but how is the genocide in Darfur a reaction to US policy? Or several of the other genocides from one people against another that is not against the United States. I know its not your job to teach me history, but I certainly don't see how all of those are reactions to US policy.


    As far as I know the US was not involved in Darfur.

    This is just one case though. "..all of these" isn't fitting here.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    People from Binghampton aren't supposed to agree with me. I could sure go for a speedie :)

    Well, I'm not from Binghamton :). Just go to school there.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Commy wrote:
    As far as I know the US was not involved in Darfur.

    This is just one case though. "..all of these" isn't fitting here.

    Thats fine, but there are other countries too up there (I am pretty sure) that fall into the same category as Darfur, and you were responding about those countries.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    yosi wrote:
    Well, I'm not from Binghamton :). Just go to school there.

    Nevertheless, speedies = sweet :D
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    yosi wrote:
    Well said. That's my main problem too. I have no problem criticizing the United State's problems, but also think it is important to remember that they are not as bad as other countries. It irks me when people are only willing to see the short comings of the US and then compare them to other countries that are CLEARLY worse, without criticizing them.

    I see violence as a problem and the US uses the most force and causes waaay more destruction. So I don't see how you can call the other countries worse. What makes them worse exactly?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    But to compare Islamofascists with the CIA and FBI...good luck with that. That's simply not reality.


    The CIA has every terrorist group beat when it comes to violence, torture and terrorism. They literally wrote the book on torture, and created Al-Quaeda-that's pretty much accepted. They are responsible for creating the Contras, one of the most notorious and bloody terrorist groups this planet has ever seen. The people that burned alive in the WTC were lucky compared to many of the Contra victims. And as far as numbers go no one comes close to the CIA's body count.
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Commy wrote:
    As far as I know the US was not involved in Darfur.

    This is just one case though. "..all of these" isn't fitting here.

    For clarification purposes only, these are the types of attitudes that lead those on the right to say things that you guys take as "questioning your patriotism." Not that I agree with that crap, but comon, we all know that there have been some huge mistakes in U.S. foreign policy...but sometimes it comes across as that U.S. foreign policy is to blame for everything, and that's obviously not the case. The thought of living in a nation where people are afraid to question leaders is reprehensible to me...but being so obsessed with that objective at the expense of questioning everyone else doesn't make much sense either.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Commy wrote:
    The CIA has every terrorist group beat when it comes to violence, torture and terrorism. They literally wrote the book on torture, and created Al-Quaeda-that's pretty much accepted. They are responsible for creating the Contras, one of the most notorious and bloody terrorist groups this planet has ever seen. The people that burned alive in the WTC were lucky compared to many of the Contra victims. And as far as numbers go no one comes close to the CIA's body count.

    It's really hard to engage you when you don't take intent and civilians into account.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I see violence as a problem and the US uses the most force and causes waaay more destruction. So I don't see how you can call the other countries worse. What makes them worse exactly?

    Do you really believe that the United States is a worse country than Iraq? Iran? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? Afganistahn? I hope you don't, but that is surely what it sounds like you are saying. They are worse because they don't give their peoples the freedoms and rights the deserve to live. The US may not be going about in the right way, and don't agree with all our policies, but they are trying to fix these countries up (regardless of if they are succeeding). How can you call these countries better than the US?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Commy wrote:
    The CIA has every terrorist group beat when it comes to violence, torture and terrorism. They literally wrote the book on torture, and created Al-Quaeda-that's pretty much accepted. They are responsible for creating the Contras, one of the most notorious and bloody terrorist groups this planet has ever seen. The people that burned alive in the WTC were lucky compared to many of the Contra victims. And as far as numbers go no one comes close to the CIA's body count.

    Again, the intention of other terrorists is to cause harm civil disrupt and fear. Nothing constructive. Just to hurt others. That is not the intention of the CIA.

    As an aside, I would never call anyone who died in 9/11 lucky. Not compared to anything. People who die as a result of terror aren't lucky, there's no reason to compare the different kinds of death. Its just wrong regardless.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    acutejam wrote:
    So that's like a "throughout history" type statement? I don’t see the relevance regarding Muslim leadership currently.

    Further, what do you mean by “Christian Nation” – I know of one, a little city called the Vatican who employ another country for their defense. Few if any western nations are run by priests or bishops or whatnot so I’m not sure what you’re getting at with “Christian nations.” Western leaders may be devout folks, but they don’t run their politics from a church.

    I would dispute your statements regarding current assessment/current events. Religious Terrorism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_terrorism

    Setting aside the "they are reacting to our policies" excuse of violence in the world, current armed conflict in the world today is almost completely centered on Muslim-extremist violence: Darfur, Chad/Sudan, Balochistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Somalia, Philippines, Turkey/Kurdistan Pakistan/India, Israel-Lebanon; Palestine.

    I'll give you Haiti, Nepal, Columbia -- Sri Lanka as well.

    If you look at the civil unrest and bloody borders in the world today, you find Muslim-extremists in just about every case.

    And then there’s just the fact that western nations have gotten mighty proficient at killing. Given like proficiency, I would imagine Hezbollah, Hamas or Al Qaeda would be wracking up quite a score – but the simple fact is, they can’t build nukes, aircraft carriers, destroyers, tanks, subs, missles – heck, they can’t even make a rifle for the most part. But they are certainly trying to kill as many as they can any way they can.

    I shudder to think what they’d achieve with a little industrial capacity. And I fear we'll soon find out....

    I don't think these countries nor our own makes decisions based out of the church/mosques. Thats why I used the term 'Christian nation'. I was showing how christain people can be just as violent if not more so than muslim nations.

    I don't think that Islam is an evil religion bent on teaching it's followers to kill non believers. That is crazy. I believe that most of the people in these areas of suffering and conflict are religious/ Islamic so of course a lot of the terrorists will also be muslim. But I don't think their religion has anything to do with why they act out in violence. I think that is a copout to get people afraid and suspicious of all Muslim people so bombing out their countries will seem necessary. And from looking at this board some times, it's working like a charm.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I see violence as a problem and the US uses the most force and causes waaay more destruction. So I don't see how you can call the other countries worse. What makes them worse exactly?

    I think the main point is not thinking of things in terms of nation states. "who's the enemy?" It's not a nation state...but there ARE nations that support them, say Iran. I would say Iran is worse than the US because they directly target civilians for their marketing and military propoganda.

    We are getting close to the moral equivallency argument and I'm not going to engage in that, but the key thing is nation states vs non nation actors.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    yosi wrote:
    Again, the intention of other terrorists is to cause harm civil disrupt and fear. Nothing constructive. Just to hurt others. That is not the intention of the CIA.

    As an aside, I would never call anyone who died in 9/11 lucky. Not compared to anything. People who die as a result of terror aren't lucky, there's no reason to compare the different kinds of death. Its just wrong regardless.

    You apparently need to read up on the CIA.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    You apparently need to read up on the CIA.

    and you guys need to recognize the "disproportionate" comparison of the CIA to al queda and the hezbos. sorry, to compare the two is ridiculous.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    I think the main point is not thinking of things in terms of nation states. "who's the enemy?" It's not a nation state...but there ARE nations that support them, say Iran. I would say Iran is worse than the US because they directly target civilians for their marketing and military propoganda.

    You do realize they say the same of us. We also rape their children and make them pose naked in dogpiles, lets not get into the torture of those being held without charges.
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    We are getting close to the moral equivallency argument and I'm not going to engage in that, but the key thing is nation states vs non nation actors.

    Whoever is against who, it isn't because of their religions. It is because of this cycle of violence where both sides have dirty hands.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    and you guys need to recognize the "disproportionate" comparison of the CIA to al queda and the hezbos. sorry, to compare the two is ridiculous.

    I disagree. Well, shit you're right...the CIA is worse. ;)
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I disagree. Well, shit you're right...the CIA is worse. ;)

    See, thats not true and I find to be totally unhelpful. You also, didn't answer my last question.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Ok, I don't want you to think that I'm just running off scared, so I'm just letting you know that I have to go, and am signing off. I'd be happy to keep debating tomorrow if you'd like. Have a good night, and peace.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    yosi wrote:
    Do you really believe that the United States is a worse country than Iraq? Iran? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? Afganistahn? I hope you don't, but that is surely what it sounds like you are saying. They are worse because they don't give their peoples the freedoms and rights the deserve to live. The US may not be going about in the right way, and don't agree with all our policies, but they are trying to fix these countries up (regardless of if they are succeeding). How can you call these countries better than the US?

    I think our way of life is better. But our foreign policy is bullshit and only keeps these countries in in the mess they are currently in. Look into most of these countries past and you'll see the US has interfered. Most of those coutries we have helped support dictators and squash democractic attempts. The instability in the area works for our govt's interests.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    You do realize they say the same of us. We also rape their children and make them pose naked in dogpiles, lets not get into the torture of those being held without charges.



    Whoever is against who, it isn't because of their religions. It is because of this cycle of violence where both sides have dirty hands.

    I don't think anyone on my side is saying we don't have dirty hands...

    But at least we can agree that it isn't about religion, it's about manipulating religion by the politically powerful to persuade the poor. Islamofascist LEADERS are not poor, but the people willing to blow themselves up are. I can only encourage you to look at the actual statements of said leaders, and the reality that religion plays in our military vs. theirs.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days

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