I don't totally disagree. America should not be making this mistake over and over again. It IS unacceptable. America should also rectify the problems in its own government. I believe though, that there is more immediate importance to stop more innocents from being slaughtered elsewhere then fixing a corrupt government here. However, in the long run, something MUST be done about our government. You are correct. However, I would not call the CIA and FBI terrorist groups. To be a terrorist, your prime perogative must be to instill fear and terror in the public, that is not there job (nor do I believe that is what they are mainly doing).
Also, once again, just because America may have played some part in establishing these bad governments, that doesn't mean that America should continue to allow them to thrive and flourish.
Its a bit hipporitica don't you think to say "America put these terrible people in power" but "They should leave these terrible people alone"?
I think this is an old chinese proverb "one step back,before you take two steps forward".
----
America first needs to deal with it's own problems, would it make sense for a blind person to help another blind person cross a street?
It is imporant to help stop killings in other countries, but as long as america has and continues to create much killing, what good is it? america stabs one guy, then puts a band aid on cut, then with the same knife goes and stabs two other people, get the knife out of americans hand. That's what i'm talking about.
I also never said that these old friends (and some new ones) of america should be allowed to flourish, but like I said, america is just not in a position to stop them, america needs to step back and deal with themselves first, the international community is better suited for peace work.
Thinking that america is able to go and bring peace to another country is like putting a pen in the hands of an ape and asking it to write poetry. It's not gonna happen.
Also the CIA and FBI fit the profile of a terrorist group perfectly. I can provide you with pages and pages of info if you want, or you can check their own web site and you'll probably see enough examples yourself.
the fact is christian nations kill way more people than islamic ones.
Christian nations have caused more death and torture than any muslim nations combined.
So that's like a "throughout history" type statement? I don’t see the relevance regarding Muslim leadership currently.
Further, what do you mean by “Christian Nation” – I know of one, a little city called the Vatican who employ another country for their defense. Few if any western nations are run by priests or bishops or whatnot so I’m not sure what you’re getting at with “Christian nations.” Western leaders may be devout folks, but they don’t run their politics from a church.
Setting aside the "they are reacting to our policies" excuse of violence in the world, current armed conflict in the world today is almost completely centered on Muslim-extremist violence: Darfur, Chad/Sudan, Balochistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Somalia, Philippines, Turkey/Kurdistan Pakistan/India, Israel-Lebanon; Palestine.
I'll give you Haiti, Nepal, Columbia -- Sri Lanka as well.
If you look at the civil unrest and bloody borders in the world today, you find Muslim-extremists in just about every case.
And then there’s just the fact that western nations have gotten mighty proficient at killing. Given like proficiency, I would imagine Hezbollah, Hamas or Al Qaeda would be wracking up quite a score – but the simple fact is, they can’t build nukes, aircraft carriers, destroyers, tanks, subs, missles – heck, they can’t even make a rifle for the most part. But they are certainly trying to kill as many as they can any way they can.
I shudder to think what they’d achieve with a little industrial capacity. And I fear we'll soon find out....
I think this is an old chinese proverb "one step back,before you take two steps forward".
----
America first needs to deal with it's own problems, would it make sense for a blind person to help another blind person cross a street?
It is imporant to help stop killings in other countries, but as long as america has and continues to create much killing, what good is it? america stabs one guy, then puts a band aid on cut, then with the same knife goes and stabs two other people, get the knife out of americans hand. That's what i'm talking about.
I also never said that these old friends (and some new ones) of america should be allowed to flourish, but like I said, america is just not in a position to stop them, america needs to step back and deal with themselves first, the international community is better suited for peace work.
Thinking that america is able to go and bring peace to another country is like putting a pen in the hands of an ape and asking it to write poetry. It's not gonna happen.
Also the CIA and FBI fit the profile of a terrorist group perfectly. I can provide you with pages and pages of info if you want, or you can check their own web site and you'll probably see enough examples yourself.
Otherwise I think we are on the same page.
I think that your examples are all too exagerated. They don't fit with the reality of the situation. I would not say that America tries to fix one country while going on and stabbing two or three. I think also that you are not giving enough responsibility for the people running those countries. The current leadership in America is not working, that is for sure. But our counrty certainly can help more than you say.
Also, I totally disagree that the international community is better for helping with peace than America. The international community is just as willing to put up with dictators, and do nothing rather than help. I don't support evertything America does (far from it). Leaving it up to the international community is a joke and is just like saying that nothing should be done, and these dictators and evil leaders should be allowed to flourish.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
So that's like a "throughout history" type statement? I don’t see the relevance regarding Muslim leadership currently.
Further, what do you mean by “Christian Nation” – I know of one, a little city called the Vatican who employ another country for their defense. Few if any western nations are run by priests or bishops or whatnot so I’m not sure what you’re getting at with “Christian nations.” Western leaders may be devout folks, but they don’t run their politics from a church.
Setting aside the "they are reacting to our policies" excuse of violence in the world, current armed conflict in the world today is almost completely centered on Muslim-extremist violence: Darfur, Chad/Sudan, Balochistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Somalia, Philippines, Turkey/Kurdistan Pakistan/India, Israel-Lebanon; Palestine.
I'll give you Haiti, Nepal, Columbia -- Sri Lanka as well.
If you look at the civil unrest and bloody borders in the world today, you find Muslim-extremists in just about every case.
And then there’s just the fact that western nations have gotten mighty proficient at killing. Given like proficiency, I would imagine Hezbollah, Hamas or Al Qaeda would be wracking up quite a score – but the simple fact is, they can’t build nukes, aircraft carriers, destroyers, tanks, subs, missles – heck, they can’t even make a rifle for the most part. But they are certainly trying to kill as many as they can any way they can.
I shudder to think what they’d achieve with a little industrial capacity. And I fear we'll soon find out....
What is certain is that all the countries you've named have a history of US involvement, preceding the reactionary groups that have since come forth as a result of that involvment.
You claim most of the civil unrest around the world is caused by muslim extremists and so on, but most of the violence is caused by the United States-meaning there is a reason for that resistance.
If you set aside the "they are reacting to our policies" argument you are ignoring a very important aspect of the conflict, the center of the argument really. You don't set that aside.
Its very simple. The groups are reactionary by nature...if we give them nothing to react too, say by not bombing their cities, or arming the worst nightmare thugs we can find, or supporting the most brutal juntas ever formed, any of these things-we give them nothing to react too, and as a result we'd see a decline in terrorist acts around the world.
Support a nations right to sovereignty, don't fuck with them when we disagree on how their economic structure is going to operate, and support them if they make the right moves towards peace and so on...and the world would be a much safer world than it is today.
Remember, it is anglo armies on arab lands at the moment, the West IS invading.. Of course they are going to fight that invasion, to resist. Wouldn't you?
Nevermind Muslims have been infiltrating every country they could access and bringing their wonderful:rolleyes: variation of a loving, peaceful Islam....with them.
Then once there, they bully, threaten and violently act-out in attempts to manipulate the people of those countries into changing their culture to fit their peace-loving:rolleyes: Islam:rolleyes: All the while showing zero respect for anyone else's culture and beliefs. Because hey, Muslims are right, and all non-believers are wrong.
So they protest the stereotype of a violent Islam, by acting-out in a violent manner and threatening a war against Christians/Catholics.........or whomever dare speak the truth about Islam's history. Because hey, they are NOT violent, manipulative, coniving and barbarians. And ........nothing proves that like their peaceful protests.
What is certain is that all the countries you've named have a history of US involvement, preceding the reactionary groups that have since come forth as a result of that involvment.
You claim most of the civil unrest around the world is caused by muslim extremists and so on, but most of the violence is caused by the United States-meaning there is a reason for that resistance.
If you set aside the "they are reacting to our policies" argument you are ignoring a very important aspect of the conflict, the center of the argument really. You don't set that aside.
Its very simple. The groups are reactionary by nature...if we give them nothing to react too, say by not bombing their cities, or arming the worst nightmare thugs we can find, or supporting the most brutal juntas ever formed, any of these things-we give them nothing to react too, and as a result we'd see a decline in terrorist acts around the world.
Support a nations right to sovereignty, don't fuck with them when we disagree on how their economic structure is going to operate, and support them if they make the right moves towards peace and so on...and the world would be a much safer world than it is today.
Remember, it is anglo armies on arab lands at the moment, the West IS invading.. Of course they are going to fight that invasion, to resist. Wouldn't you?
Now, I'm going to go out and ask something with admitted ignorance, so please, just try and answer with respect, as someone who wants to know, and not provoke, but how is the genocide in Darfur a reaction to US policy? Or several of the other genocides from one people against another that is not against the United States. I know its not your job to teach me history, but I certainly don't see how all of those are reactions to US policy.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
So they protest the stereotype of a violent Islam, by acting-out in a violent manner and threatening a war against Christians/Catholics.........or whomever dare speak the truth about Islam's history. Because hey, they are NOT violent, manipulative, coniving and barbarians. And ........nothing proves that like their peaceful protests.
I'm pretty sure many of them (now) don't like the Jews either.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
Yes but don't you see the cycle? It's not like that's the only time america has done something wrong like that, how many times is america allowed to make mistakes and ruin lives? look at them right now, They are supporting the saudis who are one of the most corrupt groups of people on the planet. They support pakistan who are not really that good.
America should rectify it's own corrupt leaders,politicians and terrorist groups (CIA,FBI) before they even pretend to be helping others.
This is an interesting post, and after reading through this entire thread, there's some promise. I agree with a lot of what you people (my term for those of you with which I disagree no offense intended) are saying, and I can see that you see things that I do. I have a lot of problems with our allies, I do. And I'm glad that it seems like most everyone doesn't excuse people from blowing up night clubs, trains, and buildings because of our seemingly unjust foreign policy. But to compare Islamofascists with the CIA and FBI...good luck with that. That's simply not reality.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
This is an interesting post, and after reading through this entire thread, there's some promise. I agree with a lot of what you people (my term for those of you with which I disagree no offense intended) are saying, and I can see that you see things that I do. I have a lot of problems with our allies, I do. And I'm glad that it seems like most everyone doesn't excuse people from blowing up night clubs, trains, and buildings because of our seemingly unjust foreign policy. But to compare Islamofascists with the CIA and FBI...good luck with that. That's simply not reality.
Well said. That's my main problem too. I have no problem criticizing the United State's problems, but also think it is important to remember that they are not as bad as other countries. It irks me when people are only willing to see the short comings of the US and then compare them to other countries that are CLEARLY worse, without criticizing them.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
Well said. That's my main problem too. I have no problem criticizing the United State's problems, but also think it is important to remember that they are not as bad as other countries. It irks me when people are only willing to see the short comings of the US and then compare them to other countries that are CLEARLY worse, without criticizing them.
People from Binghampton aren't supposed to agree with me. I could sure go for a speedie
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Now, I'm going to go out and ask something with admitted ignorance, so please, just try and answer with respect, as someone who wants to know, and not provoke, but how is the genocide in Darfur a reaction to US policy? Or several of the other genocides from one people against another that is not against the United States. I know its not your job to teach me history, but I certainly don't see how all of those are reactions to US policy.
As far as I know the US was not involved in Darfur.
This is just one case though. "..all of these" isn't fitting here.
As far as I know the US was not involved in Darfur.
This is just one case though. "..all of these" isn't fitting here.
Thats fine, but there are other countries too up there (I am pretty sure) that fall into the same category as Darfur, and you were responding about those countries.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
Well, I'm not from Binghamton . Just go to school there.
Nevertheless, speedies = sweet
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Well said. That's my main problem too. I have no problem criticizing the United State's problems, but also think it is important to remember that they are not as bad as other countries. It irks me when people are only willing to see the short comings of the US and then compare them to other countries that are CLEARLY worse, without criticizing them.
I see violence as a problem and the US uses the most force and causes waaay more destruction. So I don't see how you can call the other countries worse. What makes them worse exactly?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
But to compare Islamofascists with the CIA and FBI...good luck with that. That's simply not reality.
The CIA has every terrorist group beat when it comes to violence, torture and terrorism. They literally wrote the book on torture, and created Al-Quaeda-that's pretty much accepted. They are responsible for creating the Contras, one of the most notorious and bloody terrorist groups this planet has ever seen. The people that burned alive in the WTC were lucky compared to many of the Contra victims. And as far as numbers go no one comes close to the CIA's body count.
As far as I know the US was not involved in Darfur.
This is just one case though. "..all of these" isn't fitting here.
For clarification purposes only, these are the types of attitudes that lead those on the right to say things that you guys take as "questioning your patriotism." Not that I agree with that crap, but comon, we all know that there have been some huge mistakes in U.S. foreign policy...but sometimes it comes across as that U.S. foreign policy is to blame for everything, and that's obviously not the case. The thought of living in a nation where people are afraid to question leaders is reprehensible to me...but being so obsessed with that objective at the expense of questioning everyone else doesn't make much sense either.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
The CIA has every terrorist group beat when it comes to violence, torture and terrorism. They literally wrote the book on torture, and created Al-Quaeda-that's pretty much accepted. They are responsible for creating the Contras, one of the most notorious and bloody terrorist groups this planet has ever seen. The people that burned alive in the WTC were lucky compared to many of the Contra victims. And as far as numbers go no one comes close to the CIA's body count.
It's really hard to engage you when you don't take intent and civilians into account.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
I see violence as a problem and the US uses the most force and causes waaay more destruction. So I don't see how you can call the other countries worse. What makes them worse exactly?
Do you really believe that the United States is a worse country than Iraq? Iran? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? Afganistahn? I hope you don't, but that is surely what it sounds like you are saying. They are worse because they don't give their peoples the freedoms and rights the deserve to live. The US may not be going about in the right way, and don't agree with all our policies, but they are trying to fix these countries up (regardless of if they are succeeding). How can you call these countries better than the US?
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
The CIA has every terrorist group beat when it comes to violence, torture and terrorism. They literally wrote the book on torture, and created Al-Quaeda-that's pretty much accepted. They are responsible for creating the Contras, one of the most notorious and bloody terrorist groups this planet has ever seen. The people that burned alive in the WTC were lucky compared to many of the Contra victims. And as far as numbers go no one comes close to the CIA's body count.
Again, the intention of other terrorists is to cause harm civil disrupt and fear. Nothing constructive. Just to hurt others. That is not the intention of the CIA.
As an aside, I would never call anyone who died in 9/11 lucky. Not compared to anything. People who die as a result of terror aren't lucky, there's no reason to compare the different kinds of death. Its just wrong regardless.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
So that's like a "throughout history" type statement? I don’t see the relevance regarding Muslim leadership currently.
Further, what do you mean by “Christian Nation” – I know of one, a little city called the Vatican who employ another country for their defense. Few if any western nations are run by priests or bishops or whatnot so I’m not sure what you’re getting at with “Christian nations.” Western leaders may be devout folks, but they don’t run their politics from a church.
Setting aside the "they are reacting to our policies" excuse of violence in the world, current armed conflict in the world today is almost completely centered on Muslim-extremist violence: Darfur, Chad/Sudan, Balochistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Somalia, Philippines, Turkey/Kurdistan Pakistan/India, Israel-Lebanon; Palestine.
I'll give you Haiti, Nepal, Columbia -- Sri Lanka as well.
If you look at the civil unrest and bloody borders in the world today, you find Muslim-extremists in just about every case.
And then there’s just the fact that western nations have gotten mighty proficient at killing. Given like proficiency, I would imagine Hezbollah, Hamas or Al Qaeda would be wracking up quite a score – but the simple fact is, they can’t build nukes, aircraft carriers, destroyers, tanks, subs, missles – heck, they can’t even make a rifle for the most part. But they are certainly trying to kill as many as they can any way they can.
I shudder to think what they’d achieve with a little industrial capacity. And I fear we'll soon find out....
I don't think these countries nor our own makes decisions based out of the church/mosques. Thats why I used the term 'Christian nation'. I was showing how christain people can be just as violent if not more so than muslim nations.
I don't think that Islam is an evil religion bent on teaching it's followers to kill non believers. That is crazy. I believe that most of the people in these areas of suffering and conflict are religious/ Islamic so of course a lot of the terrorists will also be muslim. But I don't think their religion has anything to do with why they act out in violence. I think that is a copout to get people afraid and suspicious of all Muslim people so bombing out their countries will seem necessary. And from looking at this board some times, it's working like a charm.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I see violence as a problem and the US uses the most force and causes waaay more destruction. So I don't see how you can call the other countries worse. What makes them worse exactly?
I think the main point is not thinking of things in terms of nation states. "who's the enemy?" It's not a nation state...but there ARE nations that support them, say Iran. I would say Iran is worse than the US because they directly target civilians for their marketing and military propoganda.
We are getting close to the moral equivallency argument and I'm not going to engage in that, but the key thing is nation states vs non nation actors.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Again, the intention of other terrorists is to cause harm civil disrupt and fear. Nothing constructive. Just to hurt others. That is not the intention of the CIA.
As an aside, I would never call anyone who died in 9/11 lucky. Not compared to anything. People who die as a result of terror aren't lucky, there's no reason to compare the different kinds of death. Its just wrong regardless.
You apparently need to read up on the CIA.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
and you guys need to recognize the "disproportionate" comparison of the CIA to al queda and the hezbos. sorry, to compare the two is ridiculous.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
I think the main point is not thinking of things in terms of nation states. "who's the enemy?" It's not a nation state...but there ARE nations that support them, say Iran. I would say Iran is worse than the US because they directly target civilians for their marketing and military propoganda.
You do realize they say the same of us. We also rape their children and make them pose naked in dogpiles, lets not get into the torture of those being held without charges.
Ok, I don't want you to think that I'm just running off scared, so I'm just letting you know that I have to go, and am signing off. I'd be happy to keep debating tomorrow if you'd like. Have a good night, and peace.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
Do you really believe that the United States is a worse country than Iraq? Iran? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? Afganistahn? I hope you don't, but that is surely what it sounds like you are saying. They are worse because they don't give their peoples the freedoms and rights the deserve to live. The US may not be going about in the right way, and don't agree with all our policies, but they are trying to fix these countries up (regardless of if they are succeeding). How can you call these countries better than the US?
I think our way of life is better. But our foreign policy is bullshit and only keeps these countries in in the mess they are currently in. Look into most of these countries past and you'll see the US has interfered. Most of those coutries we have helped support dictators and squash democractic attempts. The instability in the area works for our govt's interests.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
You do realize they say the same of us. We also rape their children and make them pose naked in dogpiles, lets not get into the torture of those being held without charges.
Whoever is against who, it isn't because of their religions. It is because of this cycle of violence where both sides have dirty hands.
I don't think anyone on my side is saying we don't have dirty hands...
But at least we can agree that it isn't about religion, it's about manipulating religion by the politically powerful to persuade the poor. Islamofascist LEADERS are not poor, but the people willing to blow themselves up are. I can only encourage you to look at the actual statements of said leaders, and the reality that religion plays in our military vs. theirs.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Comments
I think this is an old chinese proverb "one step back,before you take two steps forward".
----
America first needs to deal with it's own problems, would it make sense for a blind person to help another blind person cross a street?
It is imporant to help stop killings in other countries, but as long as america has and continues to create much killing, what good is it? america stabs one guy, then puts a band aid on cut, then with the same knife goes and stabs two other people, get the knife out of americans hand. That's what i'm talking about.
I also never said that these old friends (and some new ones) of america should be allowed to flourish, but like I said, america is just not in a position to stop them, america needs to step back and deal with themselves first, the international community is better suited for peace work.
Thinking that america is able to go and bring peace to another country is like putting a pen in the hands of an ape and asking it to write poetry. It's not gonna happen.
Also the CIA and FBI fit the profile of a terrorist group perfectly. I can provide you with pages and pages of info if you want, or you can check their own web site and you'll probably see enough examples yourself.
Otherwise I think we are on the same page.
So that's like a "throughout history" type statement? I don’t see the relevance regarding Muslim leadership currently.
Further, what do you mean by “Christian Nation” – I know of one, a little city called the Vatican who employ another country for their defense. Few if any western nations are run by priests or bishops or whatnot so I’m not sure what you’re getting at with “Christian nations.” Western leaders may be devout folks, but they don’t run their politics from a church.
I would dispute your statements regarding current assessment/current events. Religious Terrorism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_terrorism
Setting aside the "they are reacting to our policies" excuse of violence in the world, current armed conflict in the world today is almost completely centered on Muslim-extremist violence: Darfur, Chad/Sudan, Balochistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Somalia, Philippines, Turkey/Kurdistan Pakistan/India, Israel-Lebanon; Palestine.
I'll give you Haiti, Nepal, Columbia -- Sri Lanka as well.
If you look at the civil unrest and bloody borders in the world today, you find Muslim-extremists in just about every case.
And then there’s just the fact that western nations have gotten mighty proficient at killing. Given like proficiency, I would imagine Hezbollah, Hamas or Al Qaeda would be wracking up quite a score – but the simple fact is, they can’t build nukes, aircraft carriers, destroyers, tanks, subs, missles – heck, they can’t even make a rifle for the most part. But they are certainly trying to kill as many as they can any way they can.
I shudder to think what they’d achieve with a little industrial capacity. And I fear we'll soon find out....
I think that your examples are all too exagerated. They don't fit with the reality of the situation. I would not say that America tries to fix one country while going on and stabbing two or three. I think also that you are not giving enough responsibility for the people running those countries. The current leadership in America is not working, that is for sure. But our counrty certainly can help more than you say.
Also, I totally disagree that the international community is better for helping with peace than America. The international community is just as willing to put up with dictators, and do nothing rather than help. I don't support evertything America does (far from it). Leaving it up to the international community is a joke and is just like saying that nothing should be done, and these dictators and evil leaders should be allowed to flourish.
What is certain is that all the countries you've named have a history of US involvement, preceding the reactionary groups that have since come forth as a result of that involvment.
You claim most of the civil unrest around the world is caused by muslim extremists and so on, but most of the violence is caused by the United States-meaning there is a reason for that resistance.
If you set aside the "they are reacting to our policies" argument you are ignoring a very important aspect of the conflict, the center of the argument really. You don't set that aside.
Its very simple. The groups are reactionary by nature...if we give them nothing to react too, say by not bombing their cities, or arming the worst nightmare thugs we can find, or supporting the most brutal juntas ever formed, any of these things-we give them nothing to react too, and as a result we'd see a decline in terrorist acts around the world.
Support a nations right to sovereignty, don't fuck with them when we disagree on how their economic structure is going to operate, and support them if they make the right moves towards peace and so on...and the world would be a much safer world than it is today.
Remember, it is anglo armies on arab lands at the moment, the West IS invading.. Of course they are going to fight that invasion, to resist. Wouldn't you?
Nevermind Muslims have been infiltrating every country they could access and bringing their wonderful:rolleyes: variation of a loving, peaceful Islam....with them.
Then once there, they bully, threaten and violently act-out in attempts to manipulate the people of those countries into changing their culture to fit their peace-loving:rolleyes: Islam:rolleyes: All the while showing zero respect for anyone else's culture and beliefs. Because hey, Muslims are right, and all non-believers are wrong.
So they protest the stereotype of a violent Islam, by acting-out in a violent manner and threatening a war against Christians/Catholics.........or whomever dare speak the truth about Islam's history. Because hey, they are NOT violent, manipulative, coniving and barbarians. And ........nothing proves that like their peaceful protests.
Now, I'm going to go out and ask something with admitted ignorance, so please, just try and answer with respect, as someone who wants to know, and not provoke, but how is the genocide in Darfur a reaction to US policy? Or several of the other genocides from one people against another that is not against the United States. I know its not your job to teach me history, but I certainly don't see how all of those are reactions to US policy.
I'm pretty sure many of them (now) don't like the Jews either.
This is an interesting post, and after reading through this entire thread, there's some promise. I agree with a lot of what you people (my term for those of you with which I disagree
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Well said. That's my main problem too. I have no problem criticizing the United State's problems, but also think it is important to remember that they are not as bad as other countries. It irks me when people are only willing to see the short comings of the US and then compare them to other countries that are CLEARLY worse, without criticizing them.
People from Binghampton aren't supposed to agree with me. I could sure go for a speedie
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
As far as I know the US was not involved in Darfur.
This is just one case though. "..all of these" isn't fitting here.
Well, I'm not from Binghamton
Thats fine, but there are other countries too up there (I am pretty sure) that fall into the same category as Darfur, and you were responding about those countries.
Nevertheless, speedies = sweet
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
I see violence as a problem and the US uses the most force and causes waaay more destruction. So I don't see how you can call the other countries worse. What makes them worse exactly?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The CIA has every terrorist group beat when it comes to violence, torture and terrorism. They literally wrote the book on torture, and created Al-Quaeda-that's pretty much accepted. They are responsible for creating the Contras, one of the most notorious and bloody terrorist groups this planet has ever seen. The people that burned alive in the WTC were lucky compared to many of the Contra victims. And as far as numbers go no one comes close to the CIA's body count.
For clarification purposes only, these are the types of attitudes that lead those on the right to say things that you guys take as "questioning your patriotism." Not that I agree with that crap, but comon, we all know that there have been some huge mistakes in U.S. foreign policy...but sometimes it comes across as that U.S. foreign policy is to blame for everything, and that's obviously not the case. The thought of living in a nation where people are afraid to question leaders is reprehensible to me...but being so obsessed with that objective at the expense of questioning everyone else doesn't make much sense either.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
It's really hard to engage you when you don't take intent and civilians into account.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Do you really believe that the United States is a worse country than Iraq? Iran? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? Afganistahn? I hope you don't, but that is surely what it sounds like you are saying. They are worse because they don't give their peoples the freedoms and rights the deserve to live. The US may not be going about in the right way, and don't agree with all our policies, but they are trying to fix these countries up (regardless of if they are succeeding). How can you call these countries better than the US?
Again, the intention of other terrorists is to cause harm civil disrupt and fear. Nothing constructive. Just to hurt others. That is not the intention of the CIA.
As an aside, I would never call anyone who died in 9/11 lucky. Not compared to anything. People who die as a result of terror aren't lucky, there's no reason to compare the different kinds of death. Its just wrong regardless.
I don't think these countries nor our own makes decisions based out of the church/mosques. Thats why I used the term 'Christian nation'. I was showing how christain people can be just as violent if not more so than muslim nations.
I don't think that Islam is an evil religion bent on teaching it's followers to kill non believers. That is crazy. I believe that most of the people in these areas of suffering and conflict are religious/ Islamic so of course a lot of the terrorists will also be muslim. But I don't think their religion has anything to do with why they act out in violence. I think that is a copout to get people afraid and suspicious of all Muslim people so bombing out their countries will seem necessary. And from looking at this board some times, it's working like a charm.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I think the main point is not thinking of things in terms of nation states. "who's the enemy?" It's not a nation state...but there ARE nations that support them, say Iran. I would say Iran is worse than the US because they directly target civilians for their marketing and military propoganda.
We are getting close to the moral equivallency argument and I'm not going to engage in that, but the key thing is nation states vs non nation actors.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
You apparently need to read up on the CIA.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
and you guys need to recognize the "disproportionate" comparison of the CIA to al queda and the hezbos. sorry, to compare the two is ridiculous.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
You do realize they say the same of us. We also rape their children and make them pose naked in dogpiles, lets not get into the torture of those being held without charges.
Whoever is against who, it isn't because of their religions. It is because of this cycle of violence where both sides have dirty hands.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I disagree. Well, shit you're right...the CIA is worse.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
See, thats not true and I find to be totally unhelpful. You also, didn't answer my last question.
I think our way of life is better. But our foreign policy is bullshit and only keeps these countries in in the mess they are currently in. Look into most of these countries past and you'll see the US has interfered. Most of those coutries we have helped support dictators and squash democractic attempts. The instability in the area works for our govt's interests.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I don't think anyone on my side is saying we don't have dirty hands...
But at least we can agree that it isn't about religion, it's about manipulating religion by the politically powerful to persuade the poor. Islamofascist LEADERS are not poor, but the people willing to blow themselves up are. I can only encourage you to look at the actual statements of said leaders, and the reality that religion plays in our military vs. theirs.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days