Example of Muslim Leadership Part II

Abookamongstthemany

NMyTree wrote:

Every action by the USA has a cause.

So are saying you have taken it upon yourself to determine and rationalize who's cause is more noble and legitimate? Because it sure seems that way to me.

I'm saying it is a cycle of violence created by both sides.

Abookamongstthemany

NMyTree wrote:

Really? I'd like to see those numbers (statistics). Who ran those figures, the Grand Mufti Sheik Mohammed Rashid Kabbani?

We've dropped two atomic bombs, carpet bombed Vietnam, the civilian death count in Iraq has been in the hundred thousands. And you're gonna sit here and tell me the Muslims have killed more poeple?

NMyTree

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

We've dropped two atomic bombs, carpet bombed Vietnam, the civilian death count in Iraq has been in the hundred thousands. And you're gonna sit here and tell me the Muslims have killed more poeple?

Muslims having slaughtering people for the cause of their "Holy War" and their religion, for thousands of years. I'd bet the numbers tilt heavily in their favor.

Abookamongstthemany

NMyTree wrote:

Muslims having slaughtering people for the cause of their "Holy War" and their religion, for thousands of years. I'd bet the numbers tilt heavily in their favor.

So have christians. It's not the religion, it's the politics.

yosi1

MrBrian wrote:

Saddam hussein was backed by the US, america should be the one saying sorry to the middle east for him.

next,

I guess we should have left him and other dictators in power then. Just because the US screwed up by backing him doesn't mean we shouldn't take him out. It was our mistake and it was/our job to rectify him by getting rid of him.

yosi1

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

There are so many countries that are controled by ruthless dictators, amny that the US aids and supports. I think there are better ways of taking out these leaders other than invasion. It might help these poor people if our govt wasn't giving these bad guys the power and resources to keep control over them.

I don't support the US's backing of these people. I do support the US taking them out (if planned well, with the right support, and not under false pretenses).

NMyTree

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

They say they are being violent because it is the way of Islam?

Of course they do. They say it is the law od Islam to do what they do.

Regardless of how much they twist and spin the reasons for their "cause".

You know, the thing that cracks me up the most, is that the two Muslim families I know as close, personal friends- both express that their biggest fear and threat to them, their family and well-being..... is extremist, fundamentalist Muslims/Islam.

They don't fear America. They don't fear Christians.

They fear other Muslims! ........and they are Muslims!!!

According to them, this is a mindset and notion prevelent in many peaceful Muslims.

While they ( my friends from the two families) don't agree with the way America has gone about this and some of the things america has done; they agree and support America in fighting radical Islam. Hell, I disagree and debate with them on this. Me arguing against America. Go figure.

yosi1

NMyTree wrote:

Of course they do. They say it is the law od Islam to do what they do.

Regardless of how much they twist and spin the reasons for their "cause".

You know, the thing that cracks me up the most, is that the two Muslim families I know as close, personal friends- both express that their biggest fear and threat to them, their family and well-being..... is extremist, fundamentalist Muslims/Islam.

They don't fear America. They don't fear Christians.

They fear other Muslims! ........and they are Muslims!!!

According to them, this is a mindset and notion prevelent in many peaceful Muslims.

While they ( my friends from the two families) don't agree with the way America has gone about this and some of the things america has done; they agree and support America in fighting radical Islam. Hell, I disagree and debate with them on this. Me arguing against America. Go figure.

I think that this is where you have been most unclear. Before this post you seem to have been generalizing Islam and Radical/fundamental Islamists into one group. Otherwise I tend to agree with some of what you have said.

MrBrian

yosi wrote:

I guess we should have left him and other dictators in power then. Just because the US screwed up by backing him doesn't mean we shouldn't take him out. It was our mistake and it was/our job to rectify him by getting rid of him.

Yes but don't you see the cycle? It's not like that's the only time america has done something wrong like that, how many times is america allowed to make mistakes and ruin lives? look at them right now, They are supporting the saudis who are one of the most corrupt groups of people on the planet. They support pakistan who are not really that good.

America should rectify it's own corrupt leaders,politicians and terrorist groups (CIA,FBI) before they even pretend to be helping others.

yosi1

MrBrian wrote:

Yes but don't you see the cycle? It's not like that's the only time america has done something wrong like that, how many times is america allowed to make mistakes and ruin lives? look at them right now, They are supporting the saudis who are one of the most corrupt groups of people on the planet. They support pakistan who are not really that good.

America should rectify it's own corrupt leaders,politicians and terrorist groups (CIA,FBI) before they even pretend to be helping others.

I don't totally disagree. America should not be making this mistake over and over again. It IS unacceptable. America should also rectify the problems in its own government. I believe though, that there is more immediate importance to stop more innocents from being slaughtered elsewhere then fixing a corrupt government here. However, in the long run, something MUST be done about our government. You are correct. However, I would not call the CIA and FBI terrorist groups. To be a terrorist, your prime perogative must be to instill fear and terror in the public, that is not there job (nor do I believe that is what they are mainly doing).
Also, once again, just because America may have played some part in establishing these bad governments, that doesn't mean that America should continue to allow them to thrive and flourish.
Its a bit hipporitica don't you think to say "America put these terrible people in power" but "They should leave these terrible people alone"?

MrBrian

yosi wrote:

I don't totally disagree. America should not be making this mistake over and over again. It IS unacceptable. America should also rectify the problems in its own government. I believe though, that there is more immediate importance to stop more innocents from being slaughtered elsewhere then fixing a corrupt government here. However, in the long run, something MUST be done about our government. You are correct. However, I would not call the CIA and FBI terrorist groups. To be a terrorist, your prime perogative must be to instill fear and terror in the public, that is not there job (nor do I believe that is what they are mainly doing).
Also, once again, just because America may have played some part in establishing these bad governments, that doesn't mean that America should continue to allow them to thrive and flourish.
Its a bit hipporitica don't you think to say "America put these terrible people in power" but "They should leave these terrible people alone"?

I think this is an old chinese proverb "one step back,before you take two steps forward".
----
America first needs to deal with it's own problems, would it make sense for a blind person to help another blind person cross a street?

It is imporant to help stop killings in other countries, but as long as america has and continues to create much killing, what good is it? america stabs one guy, then puts a band aid on cut, then with the same knife goes and stabs two other people, get the knife out of americans hand. That's what i'm talking about.

I also never said that these old friends (and some new ones) of america should be allowed to flourish, but like I said, america is just not in a position to stop them, america needs to step back and deal with themselves first, the international community is better suited for peace work.

Thinking that america is able to go and bring peace to another country is like putting a pen in the hands of an ape and asking it to write poetry. It's not gonna happen.

Also the CIA and FBI fit the profile of a terrorist group perfectly. I can provide you with pages and pages of info if you want, or you can check their own web site and you'll probably see enough examples yourself.

Otherwise I think we are on the same page.

acutejam

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

the fact is christian nations kill way more people than islamic ones.

Christian nations have caused more death and torture than any muslim nations combined.

So that's like a "throughout history" type statement? I don’t see the relevance regarding Muslim leadership currently.

Further, what do you mean by “Christian Nation” – I know of one, a little city called the Vatican who employ another country for their defense. Few if any western nations are run by priests or bishops or whatnot so I’m not sure what you’re getting at with “Christian nations.” Western leaders may be devout folks, but they don’t run their politics from a church.

I would dispute your statements regarding current assessment/current events. Religious Terrorism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_terrorism

Setting aside the "they are reacting to our policies" excuse of violence in the world, current armed conflict in the world today is almost completely centered on Muslim-extremist violence: Darfur, Chad/Sudan, Balochistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Somalia, Philippines, Turkey/Kurdistan Pakistan/India, Israel-Lebanon; Palestine.

I'll give you Haiti, Nepal, Columbia -- Sri Lanka as well.

If you look at the civil unrest and bloody borders in the world today, you find Muslim-extremists in just about every case.

And then there’s just the fact that western nations have gotten mighty proficient at killing. Given like proficiency, I would imagine Hezbollah, Hamas or Al Qaeda would be wracking up quite a score – but the simple fact is, they can’t build nukes, aircraft carriers, destroyers, tanks, subs, missles – heck, they can’t even make a rifle for the most part. But they are certainly trying to kill as many as they can any way they can.

I shudder to think what they’d achieve with a little industrial capacity. And I fear we'll soon find out....

yosi1

MrBrian wrote:

I think this is an old chinese proverb "one step back,before you take two steps forward".
----
America first needs to deal with it's own problems, would it make sense for a blind person to help another blind person cross a street?

It is imporant to help stop killings in other countries, but as long as america has and continues to create much killing, what good is it? america stabs one guy, then puts a band aid on cut, then with the same knife goes and stabs two other people, get the knife out of americans hand. That's what i'm talking about.

I also never said that these old friends (and some new ones) of america should be allowed to flourish, but like I said, america is just not in a position to stop them, america needs to step back and deal with themselves first, the international community is better suited for peace work.

Thinking that america is able to go and bring peace to another country is like putting a pen in the hands of an ape and asking it to write poetry. It's not gonna happen.

Also the CIA and FBI fit the profile of a terrorist group perfectly. I can provide you with pages and pages of info if you want, or you can check their own web site and you'll probably see enough examples yourself.

Otherwise I think we are on the same page.

I think that your examples are all too exagerated. They don't fit with the reality of the situation. I would not say that America tries to fix one country while going on and stabbing two or three. I think also that you are not giving enough responsibility for the people running those countries. The current leadership in America is not working, that is for sure. But our counrty certainly can help more than you say.

Also, I totally disagree that the international community is better for helping with peace than America. The international community is just as willing to put up with dictators, and do nothing rather than help. I don't support evertything America does (far from it). Leaving it up to the international community is a joke and is just like saying that nothing should be done, and these dictators and evil leaders should be allowed to flourish.

Commy

acutejam wrote:

So that's like a "throughout history" type statement? I don’t see the relevance regarding Muslim leadership currently.

Further, what do you mean by “Christian Nation” – I know of one, a little city called the Vatican who employ another country for their defense. Few if any western nations are run by priests or bishops or whatnot so I’m not sure what you’re getting at with “Christian nations.” Western leaders may be devout folks, but they don’t run their politics from a church.

I would dispute your statements regarding current assessment/current events. Religious Terrorism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_terrorism

Setting aside the "they are reacting to our policies" excuse of violence in the world, current armed conflict in the world today is almost completely centered on Muslim-extremist violence: Darfur, Chad/Sudan, Balochistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Somalia, Philippines, Turkey/Kurdistan Pakistan/India, Israel-Lebanon; Palestine.

I'll give you Haiti, Nepal, Columbia -- Sri Lanka as well.

If you look at the civil unrest and bloody borders in the world today, you find Muslim-extremists in just about every case.

And then there’s just the fact that western nations have gotten mighty proficient at killing. Given like proficiency, I would imagine Hezbollah, Hamas or Al Qaeda would be wracking up quite a score – but the simple fact is, they can’t build nukes, aircraft carriers, destroyers, tanks, subs, missles – heck, they can’t even make a rifle for the most part. But they are certainly trying to kill as many as they can any way they can.

I shudder to think what they’d achieve with a little industrial capacity. And I fear we'll soon find out....

What is certain is that all the countries you've named have a history of US involvement, preceding the reactionary groups that have since come forth as a result of that involvment.

You claim most of the civil unrest around the world is caused by muslim extremists and so on, but most of the violence is caused by the United States-meaning there is a reason for that resistance.

If you set aside the "they are reacting to our policies" argument you are ignoring a very important aspect of the conflict, the center of the argument really. You don't set that aside.

Its very simple. The groups are reactionary by nature...if we give them nothing to react too, say by not bombing their cities, or arming the worst nightmare thugs we can find, or supporting the most brutal juntas ever formed, any of these things-we give them nothing to react too, and as a result we'd see a decline in terrorist acts around the world.

Support a nations right to sovereignty, don't fuck with them when we disagree on how their economic structure is going to operate, and support them if they make the right moves towards peace and so on...and the world would be a much safer world than it is today.

Remember, it is anglo armies on arab lands at the moment, the West IS invading.. Of course they are going to fight that invasion, to resist. Wouldn't you?

NMyTree

Of course it is all of America's fault.

Nevermind Muslims have been infiltrating every country they could access and bringing their wonderful:rolleyes: variation of a loving, peaceful Islam....with them.

Then once there, they bully, threaten and violently act-out in attempts to manipulate the people of those countries into changing their culture to fit their peace-loving:rolleyes: Islam:rolleyes: All the while showing zero respect for anyone else's culture and beliefs. Because hey, Muslims are right, and all non-believers are wrong.

So they protest the stereotype of a violent Islam, by acting-out in a violent manner and threatening a war against Christians/Catholics.........or whomever dare speak the truth about Islam's history. Because hey, they are NOT violent, manipulative, coniving and barbarians. And ........nothing proves that like their peaceful protests.

yosi1

Commy wrote:

What is certain is that all the countries you've named have a history of US involvement, preceding the reactionary groups that have since come forth as a result of that involvment.

You claim most of the civil unrest around the world is caused by muslim extremists and so on, but most of the violence is caused by the United States-meaning there is a reason for that resistance.

If you set aside the "they are reacting to our policies" argument you are ignoring a very important aspect of the conflict, the center of the argument really. You don't set that aside.

Its very simple. The groups are reactionary by nature...if we give them nothing to react too, say by not bombing their cities, or arming the worst nightmare thugs we can find, or supporting the most brutal juntas ever formed, any of these things-we give them nothing to react too, and as a result we'd see a decline in terrorist acts around the world.

Support a nations right to sovereignty, don't fuck with them when we disagree on how their economic structure is going to operate, and support them if they make the right moves towards peace and so on...and the world would be a much safer world than it is today.

Remember, it is anglo armies on arab lands at the moment, the West IS invading.. Of course they are going to fight that invasion, to resist. Wouldn't you?

Now, I'm going to go out and ask something with admitted ignorance, so please, just try and answer with respect, as someone who wants to know, and not provoke, but how is the genocide in Darfur a reaction to US policy? Or several of the other genocides from one people against another that is not against the United States. I know its not your job to teach me history, but I certainly don't see how all of those are reactions to US policy.

yosi1

NMyTree wrote:

So they protest the stereotype of a violent Islam, by acting-out in a violent manner and threatening a war against Christians/Catholics.........or whomever dare speak the truth about Islam's history. Because hey, they are NOT violent, manipulative, coniving and barbarians. And ........nothing proves that like their peaceful protests.

I'm pretty sure many of them (now) don't like the Jews either.

Purple Hawk

MrBrian wrote:

Yes but don't you see the cycle? It's not like that's the only time america has done something wrong like that, how many times is america allowed to make mistakes and ruin lives? look at them right now, They are supporting the saudis who are one of the most corrupt groups of people on the planet. They support pakistan who are not really that good.

America should rectify it's own corrupt leaders,politicians and terrorist groups (CIA,FBI) before they even pretend to be helping others.

This is an interesting post, and after reading through this entire thread, there's some promise. I agree with a lot of what you people (my term for those of you with which I disagree no offense intended) are saying, and I can see that you see things that I do. I have a lot of problems with our allies, I do. And I'm glad that it seems like most everyone doesn't excuse people from blowing up night clubs, trains, and buildings because of our seemingly unjust foreign policy. But to compare Islamofascists with the CIA and FBI...good luck with that. That's simply not reality.

yosi1

Purple Hawk wrote:

This is an interesting post, and after reading through this entire thread, there's some promise. I agree with a lot of what you people (my term for those of you with which I disagree no offense intended) are saying, and I can see that you see things that I do. I have a lot of problems with our allies, I do. And I'm glad that it seems like most everyone doesn't excuse people from blowing up night clubs, trains, and buildings because of our seemingly unjust foreign policy. But to compare Islamofascists with the CIA and FBI...good luck with that. That's simply not reality.

Well said. That's my main problem too. I have no problem criticizing the United State's problems, but also think it is important to remember that they are not as bad as other countries. It irks me when people are only willing to see the short comings of the US and then compare them to other countries that are CLEARLY worse, without criticizing them.

Purple Hawk

yosi wrote:

Well said. That's my main problem too. I have no problem criticizing the United State's problems, but also think it is important to remember that they are not as bad as other countries. It irks me when people are only willing to see the short comings of the US and then compare them to other countries that are CLEARLY worse, without criticizing them.

People from Binghampton aren't supposed to agree with me. I could sure go for a speedie