Lisbon Treaty?

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

thats why many people are voting no. I was glad to see those results this morning too... although polls tend to have their purposes

TBH, I really don't think the government WANTS us to vote yes... only they can't push for a no vote.

I heard that Labour's "support" of the treaty is basically just Eamonn Gilmore putting up some posters around Dublin. Apparently, the rest of Labour don't want it to go through at all. I love it when good sense prevails.

I just hope all this positivity doesn't come crashing down around my fragile elbows next Friday.

Rhinocerous Surprise

catefrances wrote:

just as i thought... the blah blah blah argument.
make europe better. better than what?

Not just blah blah blah... They also throw in the obligatory "Anyone who doesn't say blah blah blah is SCAREMONGERING!!!

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I heard that Labour's "support" of the treaty is basically just Eamonn Gilmore putting up some posters around Dublin. Apparently, the rest of Labour don't want it to go through at all. I love it when good sense prevails.

I just hope all this positivity doesn't come crashing down around my fragile elbows next Friday.

look at Cowan saying that anyone in FF HAS to support the treaty basically if they want a job :eek:

catefrances

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Not just blah blah blah... They also throw in the obligatory "Anyone who doesn't say blah blah blah is SCAREMONGERING!!!

ooh ive always wanted to do a bit of mongering.

wonder if i have the right of return to ireland like the jews do to israel? can you peeps get a vote going on that... thanks.

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

ooh ive always wanted to do a bit of mongering.

wonder if i have the right of return to ireland like the jews do to israel? can you peeps get a vote going on that... thanks.

Not if we vote yes we can't

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

look at Cowan saying that anyone in FF HAS to support the treaty basically if they want a job :eek:

He's gonna have a hard time keeping any sort of credibility in the Dáil if it doesn't go through. I bet Fine Gael are eating this up.

Along with the entire rest of the country.

Also, I definitely get to vote. Just found out today.

Rhinocerous Surprise

catefrances wrote:

ooh ive always wanted to do a bit of mongering.

wonder if i have the right of return to ireland like the jews do to israel? can you peeps get a vote going on that... thanks.

Hey, if God tells you to return, who can object?

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

He's gonna have a hard time keeping any sort of credibility in the Dáil if it doesn't go through. I bet Fine Gael are eating this up.

Along with the entire rest of the country.

Also, I definitely get to vote. Just found out today.

that's excellent... and yeh, I love the way Cowan accused FG of not doing enough wtf? They're not the ones in government, lol.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

that's excellent... and yeh, I love the way Cowan accused FG of not doing enough wtf? They're not the ones in government, lol.

I firmly expect Brian Cowan will spontaneously combust at some point in the next two weeks.

(Actually, for "firmly expect", you could probably substitute "really, really hope"...)

catefrances

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Hey, if God tells you to return, who can object?

God dont talk to me anymore. he thinks i ignore him just cause im an atheist. :(

Rhinocerous Surprise

catefrances wrote:

God dont talk to me anymore. he thinks i ignore him just cause im an atheist. :(

God: what an attention whore.

catefrances

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

God: what an attention whore.

totally. :rolleyes:

puremagic

If I get wrong correct me with a point in the right direction. This is so interesting and Helen you're right, the Lisbon Treaty will have global impact because it will introduce the world to another superpower known as the EU. My only interest on the EU was the uniform currency. I'm like thank you Europe. I didn't need to or try to look deeper on the formation of the EU.

The EU is established as independent entity with its own
-flag,
-anthem,
-founding date
-currency
- an a common foreign and security policy in its dealings with other nations.

sounds to me like the EU has position itself an independent entity with the necessary nation-like qualities to expand itself into its own Federation.

It appears that under the Lisbon Treaty member nations will become more like a South Korea status type nation, in that they maintain their sovereignty as it relates to local and domestic affairs, however, matters of foreign diplomacy, trade, military and judicial importance are decided through the EU leadership of France, Germany and the UK = US input. In some cases, independent nations under the EU will have little or not input and the EU is not bound by their input.

Seems to me that the emerging nations of the former Soviet bloc benefit greatly, especially say, Poland, whereas, Ireland can become simply an extension of or lost in the voice UK policies. I only say the U.K, because I believe the U.K. would not let another nation impose anything upon Ireland without its knowledge or approval simply to protect their own interest.

It will be interesting to see where the EU is in five years. It could mean the dissolvement of NATO.

Heineken Helen

puremagic wrote:

It appears that under the Lisbon Treaty member nations will become more like a South Korea status type nation, in that they maintain their sovereignty as it relates to local and domestic affairs, however, matters of foreign diplomacy, trade, military and judicial importance are decided through the EU leadership of France, Germany and the UK = US input. In some cases, independent nations under the EU will have little or not input and the EU is not bound by their input.

Seems to me that the emerging nations of the former Soviet bloc benefit greatly, especially say, Poland, whereas, Ireland can become simply an extension of or lost in the voice UK policies. I only say the U.K, because I believe the U.K. would not let another nation impose anything upon Ireland without its knowledge or approval simply to protect their own interest.

It will be interesting to see where the EU is in five years. It could mean the dissolvement of NATO.

that's a very good observation and worded much better than I coulda done. Definitely it makes it far too easy for the bigger nations to form alliances and also for the former soviet nations. And yep, we will simply vote as the UK vote :( Who knows where or how this could end up.

catefrances

puremagic wrote:

It will be interesting to see where the EU is in five years. It could mean the dissolvement of NATO.

the US will not allow the dissolution of NATO.

Heineken Helen

anyone else NOT get their poll cards yet? I haven't got mine and it's just three days to go... although I think with the general election, I just got it a couple of days before also.

Heineken Helen

It's ok I got my poll card.

Anyone see the debate last night? Michael Martin came across like a school kid huffing and puffing... Kenny... what a plank... yeh, so Lisbon makes the national parliament and europe stronger... we KNOW that... the issue is that it makes the people weaker and gives pretty much ALL our power to the government :mad:

I don't like her but thought Mary Lou did a good job... til they started mentioning SF policies and she obviously wasn't prepared for that. But until then she was giving pretty reasoned and clear explanations... I didn't like the other guy though... and some of the no people in the audience freaked me out

Heineken Helen

It's interesting to read foreign press:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3401015,00.html

'Kenny disagreed, saying it would be irresponsible and wrong for anyone to claim a "No" vote would not have adverse consequences for Ireland.

"The first victims would be the Irish," said French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner. Ireland's booming "Celtic Tiger" economy has long been lauded as an example of the benefits of EU membership.'

Nice :rolleyes:

Heineken Helen

Canada thinks we're ungrateful bastards :( thanks Canada!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080610.COSIMP10/TPStory/National

'Gratitude, it would appear, is in short supply.'

Heineken Helen

well the wall st. journal seems to agree with us... no surprise there

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121304663984058567.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

'If consulting the people means that integration must be held back or reversed, so be it. Democracy is an end in itself.

It is not easy to define when referendums about European integration are appropriate. But given that the general thrust of EU integration has been to take powers away from national parliaments, genuine democrats should probably err on the side of calling referendums more often than not. Whichever way the Irish go this week, they can at least be proud their country has given them a choice. The rest of Europe looks on in envy.'

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

Canada thinks we're ungrateful bastards :( thanks Canada!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080610.COSIMP10/TPStory/National

'Gratitude, it would appear, is in short supply.'

That article was a lump of shit.

Whatever arrangements the EU scrabbles together, it will be yet another time-consuming step in a constitutional process that has already dragged on too long. Remember that a bigger constitutional reform package died when the Dutch and French voted it down; now a smaller package is endangered by Ireland, with about 1 per cent of the EU's population.

In other words: "You're a small country. Suck it up, assholes."

Only Ireland is putting the new constitution, called the Lisbon Treaty, to a popular vote. It's designed, quite sensibly, to update the EU's institutions to take account of all the new members and make those institutions work better. Elsewhere, parliaments are deciding, sometimes, it should be said, because the treaty would lose were the people to decide. The German parliament recently endorsed Lisbon by an overwhelming majority.

In other words: "The governments have to choose instead of the people, because otherwise, they wouldn't be able to claim more power for themselves."

:mad:

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

That article was a lump of shit.



In other words: "You're a small country. Suck it up, assholes."



In other words: "The governments have to choose instead of the people, because otherwise, they wouldn't be able to claim more power for themselves."

:mad:

Yep :mad: but hey at least Trinidad and Tobego are with us

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

It's interesting to read foreign press:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3401015,00.html

'Kenny disagreed, saying it would be irresponsible and wrong for anyone to claim a "No" vote would not have adverse consequences for Ireland.

"The first victims would be the Irish," said French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner. Ireland's booming "Celtic Tiger" economy has long been lauded as an example of the benefits of EU membership.'

Nice :rolleyes:

"These are uncertain times, both in Ireland, and in the global economy," added Gilmore. "Now, more than ever, we need to know where we are going. We need to send a message that Ireland is open for business."

"In an ever more competitive global environment, it is imperative we don't give the impression that we are turning our back on Europe and the policies that have served us so well," he said.

That seems to the entire thrust of the government's campaign - "Let's not make Europe mad at us." Fuck's sake, have a backbone - France and the Netherlands had no problem with standing up for themselves 2 years ago. Can't we stick up for our own constitution without everyone thinking we're just voting no to give the rest of Europe a kick in the nads?

ADDENDUM: I hate the press.

Heineken Helen

here's what's going on in Czech republic:

http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/index_view.php?id=317265

'The Christian Democrats (KDU-CSL), a junior governing party, have announced that they will support the document even if the Constitutional Court decided that the Lisbon treaty contradicts the Czech constitutional order.

They said that in such an event the party would support changing the Czech constitution.'



If it's any consolation, I read a couple of Scottish articles where they seem to be supporting us

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

That seems to the entire thrust of the government's campaign - "Let's not make Europe mad at us." Fuck's sake, have a backbone - France and the Netherlands had no problem with standing up for themselves 2 years ago. Can't we stick up for our own constitution without everyone thinking we're just voting no to give the rest of Europe a kick in the nads?

ADDENDUM: I hate the press.

don't worry... while our government may have no backbone, I think our people have the more people tell us we HAVE to vote yes, the more I feel people will side with no.

Carlos D

I'll probably vote no but it's kind of with reluctance that I do so,I don't want to give Sinn Fein the opportunity to brag that peole are supporting their drug dealing redneck murdering scumbag party.But I think in the long run it's a small price to pay,Sinn Fein are never getting elected anways so there's no point voting yes to spite them and destroy my country in the process.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

don't worry... while our government may have no backbone, I think our people have the more people tell us we HAVE to vote yes, the more I feel people will side with no.

I can't wait for the Canadian press to slam us after we vote no. It's basically the equivalent of asking them to give up important parts of their constitution to become part of the United States. I can just imagine how well that'd fly.

But of course, they're a big country - they're not small and ungrateful like what we are.

Thank christ the Irish people are stubborn and contrary.

Heineken Helen

Carlos D wrote:

I'll probably vote no but it's kind of with reluctance that I do so,I don't want to give Sinn Fein the opportunity to brag that peole are supporting their drug dealing redneck murdering scumbag party.But I think in the long run it's a small price to pay,Sinn Fein are never getting elected anways so there's no point voting yes to spite them and destroy my country in the process.

Oh I really wish sinn fein weren't on the no side... I fear many people are voting yes for that reason :( and it really is silly if you think about it. Cutting off our nose despite our face!

Rhinocerous Surprise

So I done went and replied to the guy who wrote that article in the Canadian newspaper.

Mr Simpson

I read your article in the June 10 online edition of the Globe and Mail, on how Ireland's increasingly likely veto of the Lisbon Treaty is in some way "ungrateful" to the EU at large. Suffice to say, I disagree.

I will not argue that Ireland doesn't owe the EU a great deal. Our membership has led to great prosperity in the country. But to presume that this renders us beholden to agree to every new deal that comes along based on some misplaced idea of gratitude is a mistake. The Lisbon Treaty has been a shady concept since its inception.

You say:
"Only Ireland is putting the new constitution, called the Lisbon Treaty, to a popular vote. It's designed, quite sensibly, to update the EU's institutions to take account of all the new members and make those institutions work better. Elsewhere, parliaments are deciding, sometimes, it should be said, because the treaty would lose were the people to decide. The German parliament recently endorsed Lisbon by an overwhelming majority."

As if parliaments deciding these things because the people would reject them is a good thing... Aren't parliaments supposed to act in the best interests of their own people, and not the EU? That the people would not ratify the treaty in a referendum isn't a problem with the people, or with the democratic process - it's a problem with the treaty. A lot of Europeans have expressed their wishes for the Irish to vote no, because they never got the chance.

You say:
"Whatever arrangements the EU scrabbles together, it will be yet another time-consuming step in a constitutional process that has already dragged on too long. Remember that a bigger constitutional reform package died when the Dutch and French voted it down; now a smaller package is endangered by Ireland, with about 1 per cent of the EU's population."

First of all, let me say that if the EU is to be considered important by Ireland, then Ireland must be considered important by the EU, and writing off our decisions because we're not as big a country as France is not my idea of respect.

Second of all, that makes three countries who have declined to ratify this treaty in one form or another. The treaty itself is such a complex legal document that many of Ireland's own government ministers have admitted they haven't read it - but they still implore us to vote yes, despite nobody being able to really explain the ramifications of a yes vote.

You say:
"That the Irish vote might even be close is hard to fathom from a historical perspective. Joining Europe gave Ireland a chance to diversify its economy, get out from under Britain's economic shadow, subsidize massively its farmers, attract huge EU funds for infrastructure, and punch above its weight in Brussels, where Irish representatives have been constructive and well-liked.
Gratitude, it would appear, is in short supply."

Perhaps you misunderstand why a large number of people are voting no to the Lisbon Treaty. As you are aware, Ireland is the only country in the EU holding a referendum on this. The reason for this is a stipulation in our Constitution, which states that any changes to our own Constitution must be made by vote of the people, and not by the vote of the government. The Lisbon Treaty changes this - it gives our government the power to change our constitution as it sees fit, without giving the people a chance to vote. Surely you can see how this might worry some Irish citizens?

It means, for all the political talk of it not affecting our neutrality, it does give the government the chance to change our neutral stance without the will of the people. It means that any further treaties such as this would be ratified by the government, instead of the people. An Irish no vote is not a vote against the EU, it's a vote FOR Ireland. We should not be made to feel guilty or ungrateful for protecting such an important part of our own constitution.

Alan

Woo. Go meaningless protesting.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

So I done went and replied to the guy who wrote that article in the Canadian newspaper. : )



Woo. Go meaningless protesting. : D

Good for you Alan... well said Let us know if you get a reply.

Urgh... day before the vote... I'm actually getting nervous and I see FG have bought the covering pages of the metro to advertise a yes vote . I've only read the star this morning and it states all the reasons to vote yes and quotes Brian Cowan repeatedly... over 2 and half pages... and then half a page of Eamonn Dunphy telling us why we should vote no :mad: How the hell is THAT unbiased?