Lisbon Treaty?

Rhinocerous Surprise

Stupid Sinn Féin. :(

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Stupid Sinn Féin. :(

I know :( . I don't think the media are actually unbiased at all... anytime I've seen mention of the no vote, it's to do with Sinn Fein or this group who are allegedly nazis or something. Gay Byrne's statement was described as a 'rant' immediately belittling him.

Jenny, ignore the posters and all the bullshit... but please please please read up on this and please vote WHICHEVER way you decide... cos it's seriously important. If it were a general election I'd say that's your prerogative... but this really WILL shape Irelands future and could potentially have DISASTROUS consequences depending on who's in power in the future... cos they'll be able to make all the choices.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

I know :( . I don't think the media are actually unbiased at all... anytime I've seen mention of the no vote, it's to do with Sinn Fein or this group who are allegedly nazis or something. Gay Byrne's statement was described as a 'rant' immediately belittling him.

Jenny, ignore the posters and all the bullshit... but please please please read up on this and please vote WHICHEVER way you decide... cos it's seriously important. If it were a general election I'd say that's your prerogative... but this really WILL shape Irelands future and could potentially have DISASTROUS consequences depending on who's in power in the future... cos they'll be able to make all the choices.

Put it this way: if the Lisbon Treaty goes through, that means Sinn Féin might one day be able to make decisions without consulting the Irish people.

I really don't think either side has been giving the public sufficient access to the real info on this. Everyone's just trying to shout down the opposition, and it's just turned into a contest, rather than a significant decision on Ireland's future.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Put it this way: if the Lisbon Treaty goes through, that means Sinn Féin might one day be able to make decisions without consulting the Irish people.

I really don't think either side has been giving the public sufficient access to the real info on this. Everyone's just trying to shout down the opposition, and it's just turned into a contest, rather than a significant decision on Ireland's future.

Absolutely... every fucking time we have a referendum, it's the same story! I mean you have 2 posters:

'vote no for jobs, neutrality and power'

'vote yes for jobs, neutrality and power'

:eek: It's like abortion all over again. The only advice (Jenny, I hope you're still reading ) is don't listen to either side... don't even listen to me... but I can tell you it is a huge vote. Do please please please make an effort to figure out what it's all about for yourself. There are links in this thread... or even just do a google search.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

Absolutely... every fucking time we have a referendum, it's the same story! I mean you have 2 posters:

'vote no for jobs, neutrality and power'

'vote yes for jobs, neutrality and power'

:eek: It's like abortion all over again. The only advice (Jenny, I hope you're still reading ) is don't listen to either side... don't even listen to me... but I can tell you it is a huge vote. Do please please please make an effort to figure out what it's all about for yourself. There are links in this thread... or even just do a google search.

Exactly - if you ARE voting (and everyone should ), don't let politicians make your mind up for you. I don't trust Sinn Féin, and I sure don't trust Fianna Fáil - but this is bigger than any one party.

End of public service announcement.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Exactly - if you ARE voting (and everyone should ), don't let politicians make your mind up for you. I don't trust Sinn Féin, and I sure don't trust Fianna Fáil - but this is bigger than any one party.

End of public service announcement.

meet ya after work and we'll go campaigning?

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

meet ya after work and we'll go campaigning?

I can just imagine it...

You: So... how do you think you'll vote on the Lisbon Treaty?
Guy on the street: Um... probably "yes". I don't like Sinn Féin.
Me: (Blares klaxon in the guy's face) WRONG!

Then later, we settle for bribing people with delicious cake.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

: D I can just imagine it...

You: So... how do you think you'll vote on the Lisbon Treaty?
Guy on the street: Um... probably "yes". I don't like Sinn Féin.
Me: (Blares klaxon in the guy's face) WRONG!

Then later, we settle for bribing people with delicious cake. : D

cake... yes cake would work! Or we just go scaremongering... 'if you vote yes, sinn fein will be running the country' - that's bound to win at least 2% of the undecideds... of the other 98%, 2% will see right through our tactics and the other 96% simply won't give a fuck . Apparently 50% are undecided right now :eek: that's a lot of people we can get around and I think the rest are half and half so chances are only a quarter of the people we chat to will be hostile yes's

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

cake... yes cake would work! Or we just go scaremongering... 'if you vote yes, sinn fein will be running the country' - that's bound to win at least 2% of the undecideds... of the other 98%, 2% will see right through our tactics and the other 96% simply won't give a fuck : D . Apparently 50% are undecided right now :eek: that's a lot of people we can get around : ) and I think the rest are half and half so chances are only a quarter of the people we chat to will be hostile yes's

That was far too many numbers for mine feeble brain, but I saw the word cake in there again, so I'm sold.

But hey, if we're going for scaremongering, why not go all out? "If you vote yes, Gerry Adams will eat your firstborn." It's not inconceivable, and that's where we get them!

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

That was far too many numbers for mine feeble brain, but I saw the word cake in there again, so I'm sold.

But hey, if we're going for scaremongering, why not go all out? "If you vote yes, Gerry Adams will eat your firstborn." It's not inconceivable, and that's where we get them!

I like where we're going with this... I don't understand why, in order to get people to vote no, Sinn Fein didn't just put up yes posters with sinn fein on them . That definitely would have worked

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

I like where we're going with this... I don't understand why, in order to get people to vote no, Sinn Fein didn't just put up yes posters with sinn fein on them . That definitely would have worked

Yes on Lisbon: Sinn Féin would do it - would you?




This message was brought to you by Sinn Féin

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Yes on Lisbon: Sinn Féin would do it - would you?




This message was brought to you by Sinn Féin

Now we just need about 5,000 of them printed and we're flying

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

Now we just need about 5,000 of them printed and we're flying

I'll get right on it - using the college printers, that should only cost me... €400.

Maybe we should stick to word of mouth for now.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I'll get right on it - using the college printers, that should only cost me... €400. : p

Maybe we should stick to word of mouth for now.

where's Jenny gone?

Neil???? Neil?

Just tell us you're voting no... and only because of the information provided in this thread. Of course we neither care nor will ever know whether you vote or not... but if it makes us happy for 10 seconds, where's the harm?

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

where's Jenny gone?

Neil???? Neil?

Just tell us you're voting no... and only because of the information provided in this thread. Of course we neither care nor will ever know whether you vote or not... but if it makes us happy for 10 seconds, where's the harm?

Hell, any Americans or whoever that want to just say they would vote no, if they could, I'll give 'em a nice kiss 'round the lips.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Hell, any Americans or whoever that want to just say they would vote no, if they could, I'll give 'em a nice kiss 'round the lips.

yeh, cos I feel this thread is kinda pointless now. We've lost jordy I feel to the dark side... Jenny's not gonna come back to read what we said and Neil's not gonna bother looking at all this should probably be on the AET

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

yeh, cos I feel this thread is kinda pointless now. We've lost jordy I feel to the dark side... Jenny's not gonna come back to read what we said and Neil's not gonna bother looking at all this should probably be on the AET

I'll just send pit-wide PMs promising that kiss to anyone who pays attention to us. Lucky for you, you've disqualified yourself by already having decided to vote no.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Campaigners call for Lisbon 'No' vote

Elaine Edwards

An alliance of groups campaigning for a No vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum has claimed there is “no truth” in the assertion by senior trade union figures that a Yes vote will give more rights to Irish workers.

The Campaign Against the EU Constitution, an alliance of 13 groups and individuals including Sinn Fén and the Socialist Party, today opened its campaign claiming Lisbon “offers nothing” to the Irish people.

It called on Ictu general secretary David Begg and Blair Horan of the CPSU to state how the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which would be made binding under Lisbon, would protect workers.

Spokesman for the campaign group Brendan Young said: “David Begg and Blair Horan are leading people to believe that the Charter of Fundamental Rights would give us more rights and that it would prevent another Laval ruling by the European Court of Justice. We are of the opinion, supported by legal advice, that there is no truth in these claims. We call on Mr Begg and Mr Horan to say precisely how the Charter would prevent another Laval ruling.”

The Laval case accepted that the right to strike is a fundamental right, but not as fundamental a right as that of businesses to supply cross-border services.

The group also claimed Article 188c of the Lisbon Treaty would remove the veto on international trade agreements in health, education and social services “in all but exceptional, undefined circumstances”.

“Trade in public services leads to privatisation, service charges and two-tier services – especially in health and education,” the group said.

The campaigners also claimed Lisbon would accelerate the “militarisation of the EU”.

“Article 28 commits the EU to a ‘common defence’, even if by unanimous agreement. But if we vote for this treaty, we are tied into a commitment to increase military spending. We could also be pressed to give military support to another Member State, or to a non-EU state, in what EU leaders call the fight against terrorism.”

“Lisbon would allow a group of well-armed states to form a military alliance within the EU in cooperation with US-dominated Nato. The remaining states would have no say in the workings of this group, but its actions would inevitably affect us all. Lisbon reinforces EU-Nato links and gives the US more influence over European foreign policy. Yet the Treaty would not require a UN mandate for EU military action."

It was also claimed that additional powers given to the European Parliament under the Lisbon Treaty “do not redress the lack of accountability of the Commission, nor the enshrinement of neoliberal and militarising policies in treaties we cannot change”.

“If we don’t like our government, we can vote them out. But we can’t change EU treaties once they’re in place. Lisbon offers nothing to ordinary people and would give us less control.”

Those affiliated to the group are: Communist Party of Ireland; Community & Workers Action Group, Crumlin; Éirígí; Irish Anti-war Movement; Irish Republican Socialist Party; Irish Socialist Network; Peace and Neutrality Alliance; People Before Profit Alliance; People’s Movement; Sinn Fein; Socialist Party; Socialist Workers Party and the Workers Party.

© 2008 ireland.com

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0520/breaking49.htm

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

“If we don’t like our government, we can vote them out. But we can’t change EU treaties once they’re in place. Lisbon offers nothing to ordinary people and would give us less control.”

FINALLY some truth! I was just thinking this morning that neither side actually refers to the treaty in any of their arguments or indicates exactly what the fuck they're talking about... this link gives good information! Now let's wait for the 'yes' retaliation, which will probably simply be 'it's all lies', coming from the side that hasn't even READ the bloody thing

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

FINALLY some truth! I was just thinking this morning that neither side actually refers to the treaty in any of their arguments or indicates exactly what the fuck they're talking about... this link gives good information! Now let's wait for the 'yes' retaliation, which will probably simply be 'it's all lies', coming from the side that hasn't even READ the bloody thing

Brian Cowen will probably just call us "fuckers" under his breath.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Yes vote in Ireland's 'vital national interest'

Patrick Logue and Elaine Edwards wrote:

Taoiseach Brian Cowen has said a Yes vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum is in Ireland’s “vital national interest”.

Delivering his first address to the Forum on Europe in Dublin this morning, Mr Cowen said: “I believe in a European Union that believes in Ireland’s future.

“I see the respect it shows to Ireland and other smaller countriesand how this has been core to this Treaty”, he added. “It is in Ireland’s interest that the Union continues with that."

Mr Cowen said taxation remained the subject of unanimity in the European Union and Ireland will continue to have a veto. He also said defence "remains a sovereign matter" and the Ireland’s neutrality is “rock solid”.

He said “21st century challenges” such as globalisation, climate change and cross-border crime are “trans-national phenomena which cannot be tackled by countries standing alone.”

“For us, this means that we need an EU which has structures, policies and procedures capable of having an effective impact on the quality of life of our people in these modern times," Mr Cowen added.

“This is what lies at the heart of the Lisbon Reform Treaty and this is why it is important for Ireland and for Europe that it be ratified.”

He said the “Eurosceptic ideology makes much play of the idea that the EU is the enemy of national sovereignty.

“The truth is that the Union is the greatest enabler of national sovereignty in our history,” he said.

“Instead of looking on from the outside as power blocks took the decisions affecting our future, we have been able to be at the table shaping these decisions and to ensure that others respect our interests.

“I am satisfied that that the Lisbon Treaty is the best deal that could be on the table. It may not be perfect, but in a negotiation of 27 Member States, perfection is an unattainable or unrealistic objective."

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny, Labour TD Joe Costello and others spoke afterwards in favour of the Treaty, while Sinn Fein’s Mary Lou McDonald said Ireland would lose “very many sensitive vetos” if the Lisbon Treaty was passed.

“You claim that at a demand for renegotiation is unrealistic,” she told Mr Cowen.“You and I both know that there is always a ‘Plan B’ in in political life.

She said the Government had negotiated “a very poor deal” that “does not enhance Ireland’s standing in Europe”.

“There must be a ‘Plan B and the demand for a renegotiation is a real one. I don’t believe people should be scaremongered or bullied into supporting this treaty”, she added.

The Yes side received a significant boost yesterday when the executive council of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions voted to support the Treaty.

At a meeting in Dublin, the council voted 14 to 5 in favour of supporting the treaty. There were 8 abstentions. Congress represents more than 600,000 workers in various unions across the country.

Speaking after the vote, Ictu General Secretary David Begg expressed satisfaction that Congress had adopted a clear position on “an issue of major public importance.”

However, the State's largest craft union, the Technical, Engineering and Electrical Union (TEEU) is advising its 45,000 members to vote No claiming that recent judgments by the European Court of Justice show workers' rights have been sidelined in favour of big business.

TEEU general secretary designate Eamon Devoy said: "Some trade union leaders may talk optimistically about the Social Charter and what it might achieve, but recent key judgements by the European Court of Justice show the direction in which the EU is heading, and it is in favour of big business.

Replying to the questions and submissions from the floor, Mr Cowen rejected claims that the treaty threatens Ireland's military neutrality and that it would result in the privatisation of essential public services.

“The facts are there is no threat in this treaty to our traditional policy of military neutrality and there are several safeguards in the treaty for our distinctive national position," Mr Cowen said.

"Firstly, unanimity continues to be the rule in security and defence matters. We preserve a veto over any proposal or crisis management issue with which we disagree. The treaty allows the council acting unanimously to entrust the execution of a particular mission to a smaller group of states, just as with the current mission in Chad. But such missions can only be launched with the unanimous approval of all member states regardless of whether they participate or not.”

He said Ireland could choose whether or not to particpate in certain overseas operations, such as the mission in Kosovo. Ireland's participation in such missions, he said, had brought "great credit to our country" and there were people who had paid "the ultimate price".

Mr Cowen told the forum that Ireland's participation in such missions would continue and he was "proud of the fact that this treaty recognises our ability to do so".

"The treaty arrangements set out here are totally consistent with our military neutrality policy," he said.

Mr Cowen said none of this State's "red lines" had been crossed in the Lisbon Treaty.

He rejected claims by the Socialist Party that social services were under threat of privatisation if the treaty is passed in the June 12th referendum.

“The simple fact is that public services such as health and education are a matter for national governments," he said.

Mr Cowen also welcomed the fact that the "great majority" of democratic political parties are supporting the treaty.

"Many of the people, by the way, who talk about an absence of democracy in this treaty or in how we do our affairs, are not it seems to me in many cases people who have actually obtained a democratic mandate themselves."

© 2008 ireland.com

I dunno. To me, it sounds like Cowen was just saying "Nope, it's all good," without really pointing out HOW it benefits us - or even how it keeps the status quo. Like it or not, Mary Lou McDonald said it best: we shouldn't be pressured into accepting this just because our government wants to keep the EU onside.

Jennytree

weeell... sinn fein can't be all that bad, right?!

don't worry though, I actually can't vote this time, I was just asking a question more than anything And I have googled - all I want is a list of "if you vote yes, this will happen Ireland". Seems impossible to get... stoopid Irish wishy washy press!

Rhinocerous Surprise

Figured I may as well link to this thingy: Myspace thingy!

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Yes vote in Ireland's 'vital national interest'



I dunno. To me, it sounds like Cowen was just saying "Nope, it's all good," without really pointing out HOW it benefits us - or even how it keeps the status quo. Like it or not, Mary Lou McDonald said it best: we shouldn't be pressured into accepting this just because our government wants to keep the EU onside.

well it's like how Ireland really HAS benefited so much from Europe... I guess our government would have to convince us to vote yes, I can see that. Perhaps they're intentionally doing a shit job cos maybe they actually want us to vote no without pissing off europe?

They say the only option is yes... but actually if we vote no, nothing changes at all.. they make it sound like the end of the world.

Heineken Helen

Jennytree wrote:

weeell... sinn fein can't be all that bad, right?!

don't worry though, I actually can't vote this time, I was just asking a question more than anything And I have googled - all I want is a list of "if you vote yes, this will happen Ireland". Seems impossible to get... stoopid Irish wishy washy press!

Seems the papers are very slyly on the yes side... they pretend they're giving impartial information while basically not giving any information at all apart from putting down all the no reasons.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

well it's like how Ireland really HAS benefited so much from Europe... I guess our government would have to convince us to vote yes, I can see that. Perhaps they're intentionally doing a shit job cos maybe they actually want us to vote no without pissing off europe?

They say the only option is yes... but actually if we vote no, nothing changes at all.. they make it sound like the end of the world.

Hehe... I'd love if Brian Cowen another tantrum in the Dáil if we vote no on it. "I can make life hell for the fuckers who voted no!"

Rhinocerous Surprise

Well, I got the application form to do the poll clerk thingy in the post today, so I'll be finding out soon if I can actually vote.

As if to make things even more urgent, I ran into an old friend today who gave me a list of reasons he's voting yes. Among them was, "I like the idea that the constitution is open to change." I asked him if he thought it was wrong for that change to be made by the government rather than the people. His response?
"Well, if the people are so ill-informed about things like the Lisbon Treaty, why should I trust them with the consitution?"

What the fuck is that?

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

"Well, if the people are so ill-informed about things like the Lisbon Treaty, why should I trust them with the consitution?"

What the fuck is that?

:eek: Holy fucking fuck! See most people who have told me they're voting yes have been of the opinion 'I don't know that much about it but I'm swaying towards yes' :eek: .

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

:eek: Holy fucking fuck! See most people who have told me they're voting yes have been of the opinion 'I don't know that much about it but I'm swaying towards yes' :eek: .

Yeah, this guy seemed to have put a lot of thought into it, which makes it even more scary. He went on about how the fact that Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour all agree on it makes it seem trustworthy. I mean, surely by now, people understand that politicians agreeing on something so mysterious, so unanimously, can only be dangerous?

Also, kudos on "holy fucking fuck". I like that a lot.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Yeah, this guy seemed to have put a lot of thought into it, which makes it even more scary. : o He went on about how the fact that Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour all agree on it makes it seem trustworthy. I mean, surely by now, people understand that politicians agreeing on something so mysterious, so unanimously, can only be dangerous?

Also, kudos on "holy fucking fuck". I like that a lot.

:eek: not to be patronising or anything... but one thing that reinforces my 'no' opinion is that most on the no camp at least seem to have half a clue what they're voting FOR :eek:

Ahhhh... sure wouldn't the 1916 leaders be spinning in their graves right now :(