Lisbon Treaty?

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

No that's ok... he thinks it's a pile of crap and that it's basically non-existent. Basically that if we were attacked we've no means of defending ourselves like the other neutral countries (some of the countries with the BEST defence systems in the world are neutral) but the RAF would be here in minutes to help us. TBH I think its the very very very LEAST they could do though!

There's the right-wing/left-wing divide - he worries about what we do when we get attacked, we figure there's no reason for anyone to attack us if we stay neutral.
But I respect that he's serving the country, and for his sake, I hope his stance on neutrality isn't too widespread.

JordyWordy

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

he worries about what we do when we get attacked, we figure there's no reason for anyone to attack us if we stay neutral.

Anyone remember when Madrid got bombed?
Was that to do with Spanish troops being deployed in Afghanistan or something? i cant remember 2 well...but i remember thinking
shit, if they cud be seen as assisting the US by al-qaeda then so could we....

Good point about the well-defended neutral countries

Rhinocerous Surprise

JordyWordy wrote:

Anyone remember when Madrid got bombed?
Was that to do with Spanish troops being deployed in Afghanistan or something? i cant remember 2 well...but i remember thinking
shit, if they cud be seen as assisting the US by al-qaeda then so could we....

Good point about the well-defended neutral countries

I certainly remember that thought being raised, I don't know if it was actually the case though.

The key thing is, like Helen said, England won't want us being attacked anymore than we do. Because once we're attacked... they're probably next. And while it's probably not the most reliable of safety nets, it's certainly a lot better than abandoning our neutrality, and spending billions on arming ourselves to the teeth.

JordyWordy

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I certainly remember that thought being raised, I don't know if it was actually the case though.

The key thing is, like Helen said, England won't want us being attacked anymore than we do. Because once we're attacked... they're probably next. And while it's probably not the most reliable of safety nets, it's certainly a lot better than abandoning our neutrality, and spending billions on arming ourselves to the teeth.

*agreed*

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

There's the right-wing/left-wing divide - he worries about what we do when we get attacked, we figure there's no reason for anyone to attack us if we stay neutral.
But I respect that he's serving the country, and for his sake, I hope his stance on neutrality isn't too widespread.

very well said. My brother is probably THE most intelligent person I know... he literally knows everything but not in an arrogant way... he just knows stuff! So I really respect his opinion and he talks sense on most topics. Even with this one, I can see where he's coming from, but like you said we're both looking at it from completely different angles.

And... thank you Me too!

Heineken Helen

I see Gay Byrne has come out in support of the no vote... that's very very very good news. It's a sad state of affairs but he's a very influential man amongst the age group I would have imagined to be in the yes camp.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

I see Gay Byrne has come out in support of the no vote... that's very very very good news. It's a sad state of affairs but he's a very influential man amongst the age group I would have imagined to be in the yes camp.

I'd rather people listen to Gay Byrne than Brian Cowen.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I'd rather people listen to Gay Byrne than Brian Cowen.

me too! He's been speaking a lot of sense the past few years... maybe it's just cos I'm getting old. I couldn't stand the man when he had his chat show.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

me too! He's been speaking a lot of sense the past few years... maybe it's just cos I'm getting old. I couldn't stand the man when he had his chat show.

I liked him doing the Late Late Show. He came - and still comes - across as a real gentleman.

God, now I sound old.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I liked him doing the Late Late Show. He came - and still comes - across as a real gentleman.

God, now I sound old.

nah I hated the late late show... and one memory that sticks out for me was his treatment of Annie Murphy. He was quite old fashioned... and I didn't like the fact that I was FORCED to watch it every Friday night :mad: but he seems to be mellowing in his old age and I have to admit he was a fucking excellent interviewer and not afraid of controversy either.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

nah I hated the late late show... and one memory that sticks out for me was his treatment of Annie Murphy. He was quite old fashioned... and I didn't like the fact that I was FORCED to watch it every Friday night :mad: but he seems to be mellowing in his old age and I have to admit he was a fucking excellent interviewer and not afraid of controversy either.

Maybe that's the key - I only watched it when Boyzone were on.

I really hope Pat Kenny comes out in favour of the Lisbon Treaty.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Maybe that's the key - I only watched it when Boyzone were on.

I really hope Pat Kenny comes out in favour of the Lisbon Treaty.

Hahaha... oh yes, that one was a classic, lol.

Ooohh that would be interesting. All the housewives would go nuts!

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

Hahaha... oh yes, that one was a classic, lol.

Ooohh that would be interesting. All the housewives would go nuts!

Yeah, it was! But, the embarrassing part: not just that time. I used to be a big fan.

I really just want to see Gay and Pat have a public debate on it, so Gay would get to say everything we know he wants to say to Pat. "You RUINED my show, you sexless freak!"

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Yeah, it was! But, the embarrassing part: not just that time. I used to be a big fan.

I really just want to see Gay and Pat have a public debate on it, so Gay would get to say everything we know he wants to say to Pat. "You RUINED my show, you sexless freak!"

I'm sure he's already told him!

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

I'm sure he's already told him!

He'd better have! Words can't express my distaste for Pat Kenny. The man is made of varnished wood!

Rhinocerous Surprise

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4291770489472554607&q=lsibon+treaty&ei=1gMySMb_FYnAigKzufTjCQ

I was sent this on Myspace. It's long, and slightly propoganda-ish, but it's worth watching.

Heineken Helen

My god, I really wish politicians would shut the fuck up... particularly sinn fein... if they'd join the yes side, the no side would win. Why would they say something as stupid as 'if we vote no, we'll get a better deal'. That's not even why most people are considering voting no in the first place. We know there IS no better deal for us... other than to reject it.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/labour-blasts-sf-plan-b-assurances-if-public-vote-no-1380636.html

"Virtually all of the arguments that the 'No' campaign started out with at the very beginning have been shown to be false," he said.

"They have been making false arguments and one by one they have been demolished," he said.

Sinn Fein admitted yesterday that the treaty won't change the laws on abortion here.

Unlike other 'No' vote campaigners, Ms McDonald said passing the referendum would have no impact at all on abortion. "I don't believe it will have any," she said.

Not only does Ms McDonald's straightforward view put her party at odds with several other 'No' campaigners, but it also undermines claims Lisbon will result in abortion being legalised in this country.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

My god, I really wish politicians would shut the fuck up... particularly sinn fein... if they'd join the yes side, the no side would win. Why would they say something as stupid as 'if we vote no, we'll get a better deal'. That's not even why most people are considering voting no in the first place. We know there IS no better deal for us... other than to reject it.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/labour-blasts-sf-plan-b-assurances-if-public-vote-no-1380636.html

I'm slowly resigning myself to the fact that Ireland is voting yes. :(

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I'm slowly resigning myself to the fact that Ireland is voting yes. :(

I get that feeling too... although EVERYBODY I have even mentioned the word Lisbon to have been pretty adament that they're voting no... and quite angry about it too. Literally everybody... so I don't know where they're getting their poll results from . Fact is 99.9% of people have never been asked a poll question in their lives so where do they get these figures from... I think they're made up in order to get people to vote a certain way. If the gap between yes and no widens, the no people will think their vote is worthless and won't bother :mad:

El_Kabong

Heineken Helen wrote:

I get that feeling too... although EVERYBODY I have even mentioned the word Lisbon to have been pretty adament that they're voting no... and quite angry about it too. Literally everybody... so I don't know where they're getting their poll results from . Fact is 99.9% of people have never been asked a poll question in their lives so where do they get these figures from... I think they're made up in order to get people to vote a certain way. If the gap between yes and no widens, the no people will think their vote is worthless and won't bother :mad:

next thing ya know the media will be saying it is the only 'realistic option' then several ppl will change their minds and start rationalizing and justifying it

is the lisbon treaty change you can believe in?

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

I get that feeling too... although EVERYBODY I have even mentioned the word Lisbon to have been pretty adament that they're voting no... and quite angry about it too. Literally everybody... so I don't know where they're getting their poll results from : o . Fact is 99.9% of people have never been asked a poll question in their lives so where do they get these figures from... I think they're made up in order to get people to vote a certain way. If the gap between yes and no widens, the no people will think their vote is worthless and won't bother :mad:

Of everyone I talk to at uni, I think maybe me and one other person even know what its about. Or are even registered to vote. :eek:
So as much as I hope it's just made up statistics, or the whole propoganda machine that's making me feel this is going through, more than anything else, I really think it's the apathy of pretty much everyone I talk to. Why aren't people more... well, if not outraged by this treaty, at least interested enough to educate themselves on it?

Rhinocerous Surprise

El_Kabong wrote:

next thing ya know the media will be saying it is the only 'realistic option' then several ppl will change their minds and start rationalizing and justifying it

is the lisbon treaty change you can believe in?

I guess politics is an ugly machine wherever you look.

But really, our government is already spinning this as something that's just a formality, really. And they put on such a good show - or at least, such a blatant one, I'm afraid people are falling for it.

Heineken Helen

El_Kabong wrote:

next thing ya know the media will be saying it is the only 'realistic option' then several ppl will change their minds and start rationalizing and justifying it

well thankfully so far the media have been pretty level... neither supporting nor opposing either side from what I've noticed. Although the government are telling us it's the only realistic option and a no result will be a disaster... none of the other countries will talk to us apparently :rolleyes:

El_Kabong wrote:

is the lisbon treaty change you can believe in?

absolutely not!

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Of everyone I talk to at uni, I think maybe me and one other person even know what its about. Or are even registered to vote. :eek:
So as much as I hope it's just made up statistics, or the whole propoganda machine that's making me feel this is going through, more than anything else, I really think it's the apathy of pretty much everyone I talk to. Why aren't people more... well, if not outraged by this treaty, at least interested enough to educate themselves on it?

:eek: I really don't know. Have you asked them that? This treaty seriously scares the crap out of me... but it doesn't seem to be any particular group of people who are voting no. My dad's supported fianna fail his entire life, he's voting no. My housemate's pretty right wing and makes fun of my conspiracy theories... he's voting no too. The old woman at work who does the cleaning is voting no.

JordyWordy

Heineken Helen wrote:

:eek: I really don't know. Have you asked them that? This treaty seriously scares the crap out of me... but it doesn't seem to be any particular group of people who are voting no. My dad's supported fianna fail his entire life, he's voting no. My housemate's pretty right wing and makes fun of my conspiracy theories... he's voting no too. The old woman at work who does the cleaning is voting no.

having read a fair bit on the treaty since this thread was in full swing, im more of the opinion that the arguments from the NO camp would sway me *IF* they were factual and not fictional and total distortions of the treaty.

(all the talk about losing a commissioner for example - its irrelevant because (1) proportionally we're losing less commission representation than larger countries like Germany, and (2) commissioners act in the interest of the EU anyway - as demonstrated by one of our commissioners who's been voting against Irelands interests often recently...

there are other made up arguments out there too.
the misinformation and waffle could really distort the result of this

most politicians on either side seem to be saying that if you've sovereignty issues and want to vote no then fine, but say that in reality nothing will change other than the decision making process within the EU...

Heineken Helen

JordyWordy wrote:

having read a fair bit on the treaty since this thread was in full swing, im more of the opinion that the arguments from the NO camp would sway me *IF* they were factual and not fictional and total distortions of the treaty.

(all the talk about losing a commissioner for example - its irrelevant because (1) proportionally we're losing less commission representation than larger countries like Germany, and (2) commissioners act in the interest of the EU anyway - as demonstrated by one of our commissioners who's been voting against Irelands interests often recently...

there are other made up arguments out there too.
the misinformation and waffle could really distort the result of this

most politicians on either side seem to be saying that if you've sovereignty issues and want to vote no then fine, but say that in reality nothing will change other than the decision making process within the EU...

so you're voting yes?

I know what you mean... I don't understand Sinn Fein's in particular stance... cos there ARE enough facts in order to choose to vote no...without needing to get all weird about it and confuse people even further

JordyWordy

Heineken Helen wrote:

so you're voting yes?

I know what you mean... I don't understand Sinn Fein's in particular stance... cos there ARE enough facts in order to choose to vote no...without needing to get all weird about it and confuse people even further

im still undecided!!

probably could describe me as one of the "big part of me wants to vote no, but an even bigger part of me wants to never be in the same boat as MaryLou McDonald!"

Heineken Helen

JordyWordy wrote:

im still undecided!!

probably could describe me as one of the "big part of me wants to vote no, but an even bigger part of me wants to never be in the same boat as MaryLou McDonald!"

please don't let that cow fucking change your mind that's why even Gay Byrne said he hates to be on the same side as SF for anything

think about it jordy.

Jennytree

*stumbles into AMT*

I probably won't be voting - but one thing that struck me is that the No campaign blatently lied in their advertising campaign, saying we'd lose some say in the EU (so?) and that our laws on Euthanasia and abortion would be changed and that our taxes will be fooked. On reading this first, I was a bit put off by the yes vote. But after thinking about it, the laws in Ireland cannot be changed by any one else except the people of Ireland! Now that made me think, why did the No campaign lie? Did they not have any truthful, good reasons for us to vote no?

We're the only country in the EU that are allowed a chance to vote on this, surely there is a good reason why the other countries are not? Meh... just a thought...

And... if it wasn't for the EU, we would not be where we are today.

Heineken Helen

Jennytree wrote:

*stumbles into AMT*

I probably won't be voting - but one thing that struck me is that the No campaign blatently lied in their advertising campaign, saying we'd lose some say in the EU (so?) and that our laws on Euthanasia and abortion would be changed and that our taxes will be fooked. On reading this first, I was a bit put off by the yes vote. But after thinking about it, the laws in Ireland cannot be changed by any one else except the people of Ireland! Now that made me think, why did the No campaign lie? Did they not have any truthful, good reasons for us to vote no?

We're the only country in the EU that are allowed a chance to vote on this, surely there is a good reason why the other countries are not? Meh... just a thought...

And... if it wasn't for the EU, we would not be where we are today.

Jenny, read the first post in this thread. We're actually voting so that any future say on anything like this will be decided by the GOVERNMENT, not us. We're voting to give UP our chance to have our say on these things in a referendum... therefore NOTHING is safeguarded.

We're the only country who get to vote simply because of our constitution... but this referendum is effectively giving up our constitution and accepting the Lisbon treaty as our constitution . Please please read it and vote whichever way you decide... cos it really IS very important. Do you want the government to have even MORE control?