Lisbon Treaty?

Rhinocerous Surprise

JordyWordy wrote:

im not really that clued in, I just like to sound like i am!

And I'm not even that clued-in!:p

Oh my god, it's turned into a competition.:D

JordyWordy

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

And I'm not even that clued-in!:p

Oh my god, it's turned into a competition.:D

OH No it hasn't!!....

lol.

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

The issue is that it preserves Irish neutrality but without specifying how it is guaranteed.

What I don't understand is where it says that the Irish government can do away with neutrality even if it is in the Irish constitution? Is this an assumption/fear or is it actually written in the Treaty as a possible scenario?

BTW, how is peace-keeping justified with Irish neutrality? Is that even an issue?

Ok, without meaning to sound like I'm repeating myself, which I am

It does NOT preserve Irish neutrality... nor does it guarantee it... nor does it even MENTION it.

Regarding your previous post:

Ok, so Irish neutrality is guaranteed in the Lisbon treaty.

And Irish neutrality is inscribed in the Irish constitution.

Is this correct?

So, nowadays if the Irish government wants to change the constitution to abolish neutrality it will have to hold a referendum.

But you're saying that in the Lisbon treaty it says that the Irish government does not need to hold a referendum on the issue of neutrality and they can revoke it like that.

Do you have a source for this claim?

Irish neutrality is NOT guaranteed in the Lisbon treaty. It IS inscribed in the Irish constitution.

As for your last two points, that the Irish government does not need to hold a referendum and can revoke it like that... it is all based on the link I posted on the first page and again a couple of pages ago. It's a 'neutral' site set up to inform the Irish people of what the Lisbon treaty entails... it's all in there.

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

Ok, without meaning to sound like I'm repeating myself, which I am

It does NOT preserve Irish neutrality... nor does it guarantee it... nor does it even MENTION it.

I agree, this debate is going around in circles.

Some of you claim that there is an allowance for Irish Neutrality in the Lisbon Treaty draft but it is not guaranteed specifically how, or that it is not specific enough. I think it was JordyWordy? can't go through all the posts. My point to that was that the guarantee is implicit because it's written in the Treaty, which will be part of the European body of laws, and externally by the European Court of Justice. This should be guarantee enough.

Heineken Helen wrote:

Regarding your previous post:
Irish neutrality is NOT guaranteed in the Lisbon treaty. It IS inscribed in the Irish constitution.

Here's the controversy because some of you claimed it is mentioned in the Lisbon treaty. The issue is how it is guaranteed. See above.

Heineken Helen wrote:

As for your last two points, that the Irish government does not need to hold a referendum and can revoke it like that...

I did not say that. What I said was "So, nowadays if the Irish government wants to change the constitution to abolish neutrality it will have to hold a referendum."

No wonder this debate is going nowhere!!

JordyWordy

lgt wrote:

I agree, this debate is going around in circles.

My point to that was that the guarantee is implicit because it's written in the Treaty, which will be part of the European body of laws, and externally by the European Court of Justice. This should be guarantee enough.

Hopefully you're right.
We have to wait & see if that will be yes or note vote ....
Interesting times.

Circular debate but also good to get a non-Irish opinion!

lgt

Check out this website

http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/

Also, every Irish household will receive a copy of the Treaty over the coming weeks so you will be able to check how the issue of Irish neutrality is being dealt with.

lgt

JordyWordy wrote:

Hopefully you're right.
We have to wait & see if that will be yes or note vote ....
Interesting times.

Circular debate but also good to get a non-Irish opinion!

Indeed, circular argument alert!

I agree - for me it's been enlightening to discover how the Irish are viewing this referendum on the Lisbon treaty.

Hopefully, the information campaign will work.

A stalemate is not good, in the current global geo-political climate, IMO.

lgt

B. Areas where Ireland may opt in or opt out
Ireland is not obliged to take part in, or be bound by, decisions in what is known as the “Area of Freedom, Security and Justice”. This covers issues such as asylum, immigration, border controls, judicial co-operation in criminal matters and police co-operation.

Ireland and the UK may each decide to be involved in particular issues - they may opt in or opt out of particular decisions. This special arrangement for Ireland and the UK has been in existence since these areas came within the remit of the EU in 1999. In practice, Ireland has opted in to a number of decisions, for example, in relation to asylum and judicial co-operation and has not exercised its right to opt in to others, for example, border controls.

The Treaty provides for the opt-out for Ireland and the UK to continue. Ireland has issued a non legally binding declaration that it proposes to opt in to decisions in this area to the maximum extent possible and to review the entire opt-out clause within three years.

The wording of the proposed amendment to the Constitution proposes to allow Ireland to opt in to particular decisions only with the approval of the Dáil and Seanad (this would continue the present constitutional requirement). It also allows for Ireland to withdraw totally from the opt-out, again only if there is prior Dáil and Seanad approval.

---

D. Common Foreign and Security Policy
Common Foreign and Security Policy covers foreign policy and defence policy. The main decisions in this area must be made unanimously. The proposed change to the Constitution would continue the present arrangements for Ireland’s military neutrality.

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

I agree, this debate is going around in circles.

Some of you claim that there is an allowance for Irish Neutrality in the Lisbon Treaty draft but it is not guaranteed specifically how, or that it is not specific enough. I think it was JordyWordy? can't go through all the posts. My point to that was that the guarantee is implicit because it's written in the Treaty, which will be part of the European body of laws, and externally by the European Court of Justice. This should be guarantee enough.

It is NOT guaranteed... cos it is NOT written!

lgt wrote:

Here's the controversy because some of you claimed it is mentioned in the Lisbon treaty. The issue is how it is guaranteed. See above.

There is no issue... it is not guaranteed

lgt wrote:

I did not say that. What I said was "So, nowadays if the Irish government wants to change the constitution to abolish neutrality it will have to hold a referendum."

No wonder this debate is going nowhere!!

Yes, that is true... NOW the government has to hold a referendum. AFTER Lisbon, they don't!

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

The wording of the proposed amendment to the Constitution proposes to allow Ireland to opt in to particular decisions only with the approval of the Dáil and Seanad (this would continue the present constitutional requirement). It also allows for Ireland to withdraw totally from the opt-out, again only if there is prior Dáil and Seanad approval.

This is exactly what I'm saying! The GOVERNMENT will be able to decide... not the people... and that is completely unacceptable. Perhaps you trust your politicians. Right now I don't think ours are TOO bad... but who knows WHO'S gonna be in charge in 5/10 years time. We all saw how the US and the UK governments decided to put their country into the war in Iraq without the support of their people. Governments make choices against the wishes of their people EVERY DAY. Right now, the choice is in our hands, after Lisbon it won't be. I really don't see how this is so hard to understand. The government want us to vote to REMOVE our vote . It's disgusting!

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

The GOVERNMENT will be able to decide... not the people... and that is completely unacceptable.

The government is still elected with people's votes. With representative democracy this is what happens: you delegate your vote to those YOU choose to represent you to decide in every single issue. And it's a question of trust not just in politicians, but in the institutions and your fellow country men and women. Then if you're unhappy with their voting record, you give your choice, your vote, to someone else.

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

It is NOT guaranteed... cos it is NOT written!

There is no issue... it is not guaranteed

Yes, that is true... NOW the government has to hold a referendum. AFTER Lisbon, they don't!

How do you explain this?

"D. Common Foreign and Security Policy
Common Foreign and Security Policy covers foreign policy and defence policy. The main decisions in this area must be made unanimously. The proposed change to the Constitution would continue the present arrangements for Ireland’s military neutrality."

Also, what does constitute a guarantee for you?

Puck78

spiral out wrote:

At least you get to vote for it, we were not given the choice.

well, she has the choice, but she doesn't know what the lisbon treaty is, and she will decide what to vote just by reading wikipedia, it seems...

Rhinocerous Surprise

Puck78 wrote:

well, she has the choice, but she doesn't know what the lisbon treaty is, and she will decide what to vote just by reading wikipedia, it seems...

We're supposed to get leaflets with all the info in the mail. Unfortunately, the same government that thinks we should trust them with our constitution thinks we're better off uninformed. The politician in charge of the Lisbon Treaty in Ireland actually went on our national radio station, and said that we just have to trust the government to tell us how to vote.

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

The government is still elected with people's votes. With representative democracy this is what happens: you delegate your vote to those YOU choose to represent you to decide in every single issue. And it's a question of trust not just in politicians, but in the institutions and your fellow country men and women. Then if you're unhappy with their voting record, you give your choice, your vote, to someone else.

I agree... but you're still stuck with them for 4 years til the next election and quite a few of them have been pretty bad right from the beginning.

There are quite a few things I don't agree with that my government does on my behalf... so I am not about to give them such a HUGE power as control over our neutrality.

Am I speaking French or something?

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

How do you explain this?

"D. Common Foreign and Security Policy
Common Foreign and Security Policy covers foreign policy and defence policy. The main decisions in this area must be made unanimously. The proposed change to the Constitution would continue the present arrangements for Ireland’s military neutrality."

Also, what does constitute a guarantee for you?

FOR NOW!!!!!!!! If something happens a month, 2 months, 10 years, whenever down the line that may force our government into making this decision... we will just have to accept whatever they choose. I dunno about you, but neutrality's one thing I'd like kept in our own hands... next thing ya know they're sending us to Iraq or something! Our democratically elected government allowed US troops to land in Shannon on the way to Iraq... completely ignoring our neutrality... if they have the power to get rid of it altogether and lick up to the Americans even more, I reckon they'd jump at the chance. However, I do believe they do quite a good job on other day to day issues. You find a candidate who you agree with on every single issue?

Heineken Helen

Puck78 wrote:

well, she has the choice, but she doesn't know what the lisbon treaty is, and she will decide what to vote just by reading wikipedia, it seems...

the link I provided at the beginning of this thread... and the one I'm getting my information one... is an official citizens advice site ON the lisbon treaty! It's certainly not wikipedia. Why don't YOU tell me why I should vote otherwise? I think this thread shows I'm open to discussion... not regarding the future of our neutrality though so they will have to KEEP that issue in the hands of the people (this is no surprise to anyone... this was the big deal for Nice 1 and Nice 2... so they can't NOW accuse us of being selfish... we don't ask for much but this is one issue we're not budging on... Ireland was at war for 800 years, we only have peace a very very short time and I think most people are enjoying that. It's the REST of you are being selfish expecting us to give that up... for what... money?

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

We're supposed to get leaflets with all the info in the mail. Unfortunately, the same government that thinks we should trust them with our constitution thinks we're better off uninformed. The politician in charge of the Lisbon Treaty in Ireland actually went on our national radio station, and said that we just have to trust the government to tell us how to vote.

I think this is why people are edging towards no... cos when a government, ANY government says 'trust us' and especially when ALL parties agree on the one thing (which never happens) people suspect something's up. However how the fuck is ANYBODY supposed to actually decipher the information? I work with some seriously intelligent people, used to all this legal jargon, and they can't figure a lot of it out. So do we just GUESS what it is that we're voting on?

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

I think this is why people are edging towards no... cos when a government, ANY government says 'trust us' and especially when ALL parties agree on the one thing (which never happens) people suspect something's up. However how the fuck is ANYBODY supposed to actually decipher the information? I work with some seriously intelligent people, used to all this legal jargon, and they can't figure a lot of it out. So do we just GUESS what it is that we're voting on?

And when their main lines of encouragement are posters with semi-naked folks on them with suggestive slogans, and pointing out that Sinn Féin opposes the treaty, you know something's not right. In a way, I can sort of some benefits of the Lisbon Treaty - I'm just left unsure of whether I can trust our government with it. And that scares me.:(

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

And when their main lines of encouragement are posters with semi-naked folks on them with suggestive slogans, and pointing out that Sinn Féin opposes the treaty, you know something's not right. In a way, I can sort of some benefits of the Lisbon Treaty - I'm just left unsure of whether I can trust our government with it. And that scares me.:(

Oh I can see most of the benefits.. I mean people think we're being selfish and greedy and I genuinely don't think that's the case... I believe having neutrality in the peoples hands is the only place it should be. Ok there aren't many neutral countries so perhaps only those would know how it feels... but, I dunno about everyone else, I watch soldiers from all the countries heading off to Iraq cos their governments were fucking stupid and AFRAID of America... and I thanked God that our soldiers will never have to do something like that (my brother's in the army)