Lisbon Treaty?

Rhinocerous Surprise

Yes vote in Ireland's 'vital national interest'

Patrick Logue and Elaine Edwards wrote:

Taoiseach Brian Cowen has said a Yes vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum is in Ireland’s “vital national interest”.

Delivering his first address to the Forum on Europe in Dublin this morning, Mr Cowen said: “I believe in a European Union that believes in Ireland’s future.

“I see the respect it shows to Ireland and other smaller countriesand how this has been core to this Treaty”, he added. “It is in Ireland’s interest that the Union continues with that."

Mr Cowen said taxation remained the subject of unanimity in the European Union and Ireland will continue to have a veto. He also said defence "remains a sovereign matter" and the Ireland’s neutrality is “rock solid”.

He said “21st century challenges” such as globalisation, climate change and cross-border crime are “trans-national phenomena which cannot be tackled by countries standing alone.”

“For us, this means that we need an EU which has structures, policies and procedures capable of having an effective impact on the quality of life of our people in these modern times," Mr Cowen added.

“This is what lies at the heart of the Lisbon Reform Treaty and this is why it is important for Ireland and for Europe that it be ratified.”

He said the “Eurosceptic ideology makes much play of the idea that the EU is the enemy of national sovereignty.

“The truth is that the Union is the greatest enabler of national sovereignty in our history,” he said.

“Instead of looking on from the outside as power blocks took the decisions affecting our future, we have been able to be at the table shaping these decisions and to ensure that others respect our interests.

“I am satisfied that that the Lisbon Treaty is the best deal that could be on the table. It may not be perfect, but in a negotiation of 27 Member States, perfection is an unattainable or unrealistic objective."

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny, Labour TD Joe Costello and others spoke afterwards in favour of the Treaty, while Sinn Fein’s Mary Lou McDonald said Ireland would lose “very many sensitive vetos” if the Lisbon Treaty was passed.

“You claim that at a demand for renegotiation is unrealistic,” she told Mr Cowen.“You and I both know that there is always a ‘Plan B’ in in political life.

She said the Government had negotiated “a very poor deal” that “does not enhance Ireland’s standing in Europe”.

“There must be a ‘Plan B and the demand for a renegotiation is a real one. I don’t believe people should be scaremongered or bullied into supporting this treaty”, she added.

The Yes side received a significant boost yesterday when the executive council of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions voted to support the Treaty.

At a meeting in Dublin, the council voted 14 to 5 in favour of supporting the treaty. There were 8 abstentions. Congress represents more than 600,000 workers in various unions across the country.

Speaking after the vote, Ictu General Secretary David Begg expressed satisfaction that Congress had adopted a clear position on “an issue of major public importance.”

However, the State's largest craft union, the Technical, Engineering and Electrical Union (TEEU) is advising its 45,000 members to vote No claiming that recent judgments by the European Court of Justice show workers' rights have been sidelined in favour of big business.

TEEU general secretary designate Eamon Devoy said: "Some trade union leaders may talk optimistically about the Social Charter and what it might achieve, but recent key judgements by the European Court of Justice show the direction in which the EU is heading, and it is in favour of big business.

Replying to the questions and submissions from the floor, Mr Cowen rejected claims that the treaty threatens Ireland's military neutrality and that it would result in the privatisation of essential public services.

“The facts are there is no threat in this treaty to our traditional policy of military neutrality and there are several safeguards in the treaty for our distinctive national position," Mr Cowen said.

"Firstly, unanimity continues to be the rule in security and defence matters. We preserve a veto over any proposal or crisis management issue with which we disagree. The treaty allows the council acting unanimously to entrust the execution of a particular mission to a smaller group of states, just as with the current mission in Chad. But such missions can only be launched with the unanimous approval of all member states regardless of whether they participate or not.”

He said Ireland could choose whether or not to particpate in certain overseas operations, such as the mission in Kosovo. Ireland's participation in such missions, he said, had brought "great credit to our country" and there were people who had paid "the ultimate price".

Mr Cowen told the forum that Ireland's participation in such missions would continue and he was "proud of the fact that this treaty recognises our ability to do so".

"The treaty arrangements set out here are totally consistent with our military neutrality policy," he said.

Mr Cowen said none of this State's "red lines" had been crossed in the Lisbon Treaty.

He rejected claims by the Socialist Party that social services were under threat of privatisation if the treaty is passed in the June 12th referendum.

“The simple fact is that public services such as health and education are a matter for national governments," he said.

Mr Cowen also welcomed the fact that the "great majority" of democratic political parties are supporting the treaty.

"Many of the people, by the way, who talk about an absence of democracy in this treaty or in how we do our affairs, are not it seems to me in many cases people who have actually obtained a democratic mandate themselves."

© 2008 ireland.com

I dunno. To me, it sounds like Cowen was just saying "Nope, it's all good," without really pointing out HOW it benefits us - or even how it keeps the status quo. Like it or not, Mary Lou McDonald said it best: we shouldn't be pressured into accepting this just because our government wants to keep the EU onside.

Jennytree

weeell... sinn fein can't be all that bad, right?!

don't worry though, I actually can't vote this time, I was just asking a question more than anything And I have googled - all I want is a list of "if you vote yes, this will happen Ireland". Seems impossible to get... stoopid Irish wishy washy press!

Rhinocerous Surprise

Figured I may as well link to this thingy: Myspace thingy!

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Yes vote in Ireland's 'vital national interest'



I dunno. To me, it sounds like Cowen was just saying "Nope, it's all good," without really pointing out HOW it benefits us - or even how it keeps the status quo. Like it or not, Mary Lou McDonald said it best: we shouldn't be pressured into accepting this just because our government wants to keep the EU onside.

well it's like how Ireland really HAS benefited so much from Europe... I guess our government would have to convince us to vote yes, I can see that. Perhaps they're intentionally doing a shit job cos maybe they actually want us to vote no without pissing off europe?

They say the only option is yes... but actually if we vote no, nothing changes at all.. they make it sound like the end of the world.

Heineken Helen

Jennytree wrote:

weeell... sinn fein can't be all that bad, right?!

don't worry though, I actually can't vote this time, I was just asking a question more than anything And I have googled - all I want is a list of "if you vote yes, this will happen Ireland". Seems impossible to get... stoopid Irish wishy washy press!

Seems the papers are very slyly on the yes side... they pretend they're giving impartial information while basically not giving any information at all apart from putting down all the no reasons.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

well it's like how Ireland really HAS benefited so much from Europe... I guess our government would have to convince us to vote yes, I can see that. Perhaps they're intentionally doing a shit job cos maybe they actually want us to vote no without pissing off europe?

They say the only option is yes... but actually if we vote no, nothing changes at all.. they make it sound like the end of the world.

Hehe... I'd love if Brian Cowen another tantrum in the Dáil if we vote no on it. "I can make life hell for the fuckers who voted no!"

Rhinocerous Surprise

Well, I got the application form to do the poll clerk thingy in the post today, so I'll be finding out soon if I can actually vote.

As if to make things even more urgent, I ran into an old friend today who gave me a list of reasons he's voting yes. Among them was, "I like the idea that the constitution is open to change." I asked him if he thought it was wrong for that change to be made by the government rather than the people. His response?
"Well, if the people are so ill-informed about things like the Lisbon Treaty, why should I trust them with the consitution?"

What the fuck is that?

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

"Well, if the people are so ill-informed about things like the Lisbon Treaty, why should I trust them with the consitution?"

What the fuck is that?

:eek: Holy fucking fuck! See most people who have told me they're voting yes have been of the opinion 'I don't know that much about it but I'm swaying towards yes' :eek: .

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

:eek: Holy fucking fuck! See most people who have told me they're voting yes have been of the opinion 'I don't know that much about it but I'm swaying towards yes' :eek: .

Yeah, this guy seemed to have put a lot of thought into it, which makes it even more scary. He went on about how the fact that Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour all agree on it makes it seem trustworthy. I mean, surely by now, people understand that politicians agreeing on something so mysterious, so unanimously, can only be dangerous?

Also, kudos on "holy fucking fuck". I like that a lot.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Yeah, this guy seemed to have put a lot of thought into it, which makes it even more scary. : o He went on about how the fact that Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour all agree on it makes it seem trustworthy. I mean, surely by now, people understand that politicians agreeing on something so mysterious, so unanimously, can only be dangerous?

Also, kudos on "holy fucking fuck". I like that a lot.

:eek: not to be patronising or anything... but one thing that reinforces my 'no' opinion is that most on the no camp at least seem to have half a clue what they're voting FOR :eek:

Ahhhh... sure wouldn't the 1916 leaders be spinning in their graves right now

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

:eek: not to be patronising or anything... but one thing that reinforces my 'no' opinion is that most on the no camp at least seem to have half a clue what they're voting FOR :eek:

Ahhhh... sure wouldn't the 1916 leaders be spinning in their graves right now

"Romantic Ireland's dead and gone
It's with O'Leary in the grave."

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

"Romantic Ireland's dead and gone
It's with O'Leary in the grave."

too true! Gotta love Yeats THIS is the problem I have with modern Ireland... nothing to do with neutrality or globalisation or any of that... but we're losing our core values, our identity!

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

too true! Gotta love Yeats THIS is the problem I have with modern Ireland... nothing to do with neutrality or globalisation or any of that... but we're losing our core values, our identity!

Every day, we're less Ireland, and more European Country #16, or something. It's the price of progress, and we're paying it in Euros instead of Punts.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Every day, we're less Ireland, and more European Country #16, or something. It's the price of progress, and we're paying it in Euros instead of Punts.

I think the underlying reason that I was always gonna vote no... is cos I fucking HATE Europe . I really really do... I think we should just leave... if we leave others will follow... and if they don't, fuck em... we can go back to agriculture. I think Irish people are WAY too laid back to actually survive the rat race.

United States of Europe :mad: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

I think the underlying reason that I was always gonna vote no... is cos I fucking HATE Europe . I really really do... I think we should just leave... if we leave others will follow... and if they don't, fuck em... we can go back to agriculture. I think Irish people are WAY too laid back to actually survive the rat race.

United States of Europe :mad: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Either that, or Europe needs to slow down to Ireland's leisurely pace.

We'll just lock all the fanatically pro-Europe folks in the Finance District - they'll enjoy themselves there, I think - and take the rest of the country back for ourselves.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Either that, or Europe needs to slow down to Ireland's leisurely pace.

We'll just lock all the fanatically pro-Europe folks in the Finance District - they'll enjoy themselves there, I think - and take the rest of the country back for ourselves.

ya know... actually that's not a bad idea. We can call the financial district 'Dublin' and the rest of the country 'Ireland', keep it pretty simple like

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

ya know... actually that's not a bad idea. We can call the financial district 'Dublin' and the rest of the country 'Ireland', keep it pretty simple like

It'll be like ye olde Pale, except this time, we won't want it back.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

It'll be like ye olde Pale, except this time, we won't want it back.

absolutely.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

absolutely.

And my yes-voting brother already works there! It's like my work's being done for me!

Jennytree

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3750417.ece

Corrs guitarist Jim Corr has claimed that there was overwhelming evidence that the 9/11 attacks in America were carried out by "rogue elements" of US President George Bush's "neo-con administration".

In a rare intervention into the political arena, the male singer with The Corrs band also came out against the Lisbon Treaty claiming that it is " tip-toe totalitarianism in the West".

In an interview with Matt Cooper on Ireland's Today FM's 'Last Word', Corr made the case for voting 'No' to Lisbon, claiming it could introduce the death penalty to Ireland and contribute to a "new world order".

Corr's opposition is based on his three years "studying the New World Order which the European Union is a part of".

He said "the EU is a stepping stone towards a world government, they will merge it with the Asia Pacific Union, the African Union and the North American Union". The Lisbon Treaty itself will introduce "a scientific technocracy" to Europe which will erode national sovereignty.

Corr claimed that The Charter of Fundamental Rights allows for the introduction of the death penalty.

"It makes provision for the introduction to law for the death penalty in times of war or imminent threat of war.

"What we are seeing is tip-toe totalitarianism in the West with 9/11 the key to understanding this.

"When you study 9/11 it becomes very apparent... it was a staged terrorist attack, what they call a false flag operation."

Corr said overwhelming evidence suggests 9/11 "was carried out by rogue elements in the Bush neo-con administration".

Yes, Jim