Lisbon Treaty?

Heineken Helen

seems Poland thinks people are voting no cos we don't like Polish people :rolleyes:

http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/news/artykul84478_Ireland_divided_over_Lisbon_Treaty_.html

On Thursday, a large part of the Irish nation is likely to reject the Lisbon Treaty in the referendum. One of the reasons is the recent immigration from Poland, writes GAZETA WYBORCZA. Many Irish have announced, in opinion polls, that they would say ‘no’ to the treaty to prevent the influx of too many immigrants to Ireland

Heineken Helen

the times implores us to free europe from Lisbon

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article4107355.ece

The “yes” camp argues that the Lisbon treaty is essential to the smooth functioning of the EU after enlargement, and that a rejection will throw the institutions into “chaos”. But the European Union is not paralysed. In the past year alone, 177 EU directives have passed into British law.

I've been wondering about that myself.

Heineken Helen

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/10/europe/union.php

"The eventuality of an Irish rejection would be a problem not only for the French presidency but for Europe," Sarkozy said. "It's for the Irish to decide on this, but what Madame Merkel and I have decided is that, whatever happens, the reaction will be a Franco-German one."

right... so the fact that an Irish NO will be reacted to by France and Germany jointly... that should convince me to change my mind and vote for this vunderful united Europe fronted by France and Germany? WTF????? :eek:

Heineken Helen

Hmm... are France already in charge? :mad:

http://euobserver.com/9/26305

"The French white paper on EU defence has been ready for release since May, but the French government are withholding it until after the Irish referendum," the MEP said, demanding that the text be released immediately.

According to the MEP, the Lisbon treaty would force member states to contribute substantial amounts of cash and military expertise to comply with the text's provision on boosting EU military capability, a provision that Paris is ready to take up on as soon as the text has been ratified by all EU member states.

French newspapers reported last month that the Irish government had explicitly asked the French government to keep its defence strategy quiet until after the 12 June referendum. The spokesperson denied knowledge of such a deal

Rhinocerous Surprise

Well, no reply from Mr. Canada yet...

Seriously, what the hell is going on with France? If we vote no, they're gonna be pissed at us? With Germany on their side? That's just trying to bully us... and our government is just playing along.

I wish there was some way to vote no twice. :mad:

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Well, no reply from Mr. Canada yet...

Seriously, what the hell is going on with France? If we vote no, they're gonna be pissed at us? With Germany on their side? That's just trying to bully us... and our government is just playing along.

I wish there was some way to vote no twice. :mad:

I don't understand how France are in charge... I know they're gonna have the presidency soon but seriously why the fuck should we care how THEY want us to vote. Besides, all this talk about how Ireland will be the first to pay... France and Holland were the first people to vote no.. but that's ok? Cos they took the vote from the people and ratified it against their wishes? :mad: URGH... I'm so annoyed at this whole thing. I found out last night that my new German housemate... his dad works for the european commissioner :eek:

JordyWordy

so. polling time is almost up. i aint posted on this thread for a while....

...i imposed a "Lisbon forum blackout" on myself you could say.

i spent my time researching thoroughly.....and this is just to let HH & Rhino know that i never crossed fully over to the "dark side"....i indeed found myself to have massive objections to the internal decision making process that would evolve out of this treaty.


Voted No. It felt right. It felt good. Time for the EU to realise it doesnt need to progress to a a higher level and come back with some integration&unity treaty that is actually about integration and not about superceeding national governments & citizens. Fuck em

Word

Rhinocerous Surprise

JordyWordy wrote:

so. polling time is almost up. i aint posted on this thread for a while....

...i imposed a "Lisbon forum blackout" on myself you could say.

i spent my time researching thoroughly.....and this is just to let HH & Rhino know that i never crossed fully over to the "dark side"....i indeed found myself to have massive objections to the internal decision making process that would evolve out of this treaty.


Voted No. It felt right. It felt good. Time for the EU to realise it doesnt need to progress to a a higher level and come back with some integration&unity treaty that is actually about integration and not about superceeding national governments & citizens. Fuck em

Word

Go Jordy! Also go me, and Hels.

Heineken Helen

JordyWordy wrote:

so. polling time is almost up. i aint posted on this thread for a while....

...i imposed a "Lisbon forum blackout" on myself you could say.

i spent my time researching thoroughly.....and this is just to let HH & Rhino know that i never crossed fully over to the "dark side"....i indeed found myself to have massive objections to the internal decision making process that would evolve out of this treaty.


Voted No. It felt right. It felt good. Time for the EU to realise it doesnt need to progress to a a higher level and come back with some integration&unity treaty that is actually about integration and not about superceeding national governments & citizens. Fuck em

Word

wow, well done for making me smile first thing in the morning.

Carlos D

I voted no,early indications say that the no vote has pretty much won...should we all be quaking in our boots now about what the big bad EU is gonna do now to us to punish us?They'll probably just make us keep voting on it til we vote Yes.

Heineken Helen

Carlos D wrote:

I voted no,early indications say that the no vote has pretty much won...should we all be quaking in our boots now about what the big bad EU is gonna do now to us to punish us?They'll probably just make us keep voting on it til we vote Yes.

Good man Carlos I still can't believe no's winning.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Allow me to slightly prematurely say "Screw EU, Brian Cowen".

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Allow to slightly prematurely say "Screw EU, Brian Cowen".

Allow me to not so prematurely say "Screw EU Sarkozy, Merkel, Kouchner and all of you bureaucrats who so democratically fucked your people over"

It's a good day for Europe... whether they see it that way or not, time will tell.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

Allow me to not so prematurely say "Screw EU Sarkozy, Merkel, Kouchner and all of you bureaucrats who so democratically fucked your people over"

It's a good day for Europe... whether they see it that way or not, time will tell.

Hehe... That German Schultz guy is pretty much holding our government responsible, rather than us.

Heineken Helen

Can anyone say... 'SOUR GRAPES'?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/14/world/europe/14ireland.html?hp

Andrew Duff, a British member of the European Parliament who supports the treaty and the spokesman on constitutional issues for the Liberal Democrats, described the vote as a “tragedy for Ireland, the EU and Europe’s place in the world”.

“The problems the treaty was established to address are still there: effectiveness, democracy and capacity to act," he said. "If the outcome of this is that we are obliged to struggle on with the existing treaty, then the Irish will have done no favors for themselves or us."

Mr. Duff added that EU leaders will have to try to assemble a new strategy when they meet for a summit in Brussels next Thursday.

“I think the Irish prime minister, Brian Cowen, will have to explain himself at the summit. If he brings a credible and coherent proposal to extricate the EU from this mess, then he will be listened to. But I suspect he can’t because there isn’t one.”

“I think we are probably going to have to wait for quite a considerable time before political circumstances have improved to the degree necessary to acquire public consent.”

who the fuck is this guy? And talk about fucking drama queen did nobody tell him it's over... too late for the threats

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

Can anyone say... 'SOUR GRAPES'?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/14/world/europe/14ireland.html?hp



who the fuck is this guy? And talk about fucking drama queen did nobody tell him it's over... too late for the threats

Haha... "The problems the treaty was established to address are still there: effectiveness, democracy and capacity to act."

Yeah, they were certainly trying to address the problem of democracy, weren't they?

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Haha... "The problems the treaty was established to address are still there: effectiveness, democracy and capacity to act."

Yeah, they were certainly trying to address the problem of democracy, weren't they?

LMFAO... that was my thought too.

Besides... I don't get it anyway... how exactly IS Europe ineffective at what it currently does? It's only ineffective at things it WANTS to do... which the people seem to be against anyway. And capacity to act? WTF? Act on what?

I'm not even gonna get into democracy.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

LMFAO... that was my thought too.

Besides... I don't get it anyway... how exactly IS Europe ineffective at what it currently does? It's only ineffective at things it WANTS to do... which the people seem to be against anyway. And capacity to act? WTF? Act on what?

I'm not even gonna get into democracy.

But that's the exact problem - this referendum got in the way of the EU having power the people don't really want it to have. So obviously we're the bad guys in this case. :rolleyes: Besides, the day we care about an English politician's opinion of a democratic Irish vote...

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

But that's the exact problem - this referendum got in the way of the EU having power the people don't really want it to have. So obviously we're the bad guys in this case. :rolleyes: Besides, the day we care about an English politician's opinion of a democratic Irish vote...

well I like that Micheal Martin said that now the government will have to find out why it is that europe seems to be out of touch with the people and what they want to do with it. I'm sure realistically they couldn't give a fuck what we think... but at least it's a step in the right direction. Don't keep throwing referendums at us and changing what YOU think we want... why don't you ask us... or better yet, we'll TELL you!

JordyWordy

People Have The Fucking Power.

Your Poll is still in favour of No too Hels, awesome.

The few posts above really highlighted what i couldnt understand about the whole thing...WHY change the EU? so it can be federal, bypass citizens on even more major issues???? not everyone wants the EU to become that.

The intial form of the Benelux/EC/EU was to help rebuild with a vision of avoiding war by having many complementing benefits and dependencies on neighbours........and now the EU itself wants to effectively become a superpower-esque continental organisation...

Common Infrsatructure, Trade, Currency & Fiscal Rates, Contributing to developing less fortunate countries.....that is cool.

Common Army, Dilution of civil democracy & Lowered thresholds for passing laws, and Co-Decision processses.......That aint the EC/EU i grew up with. Fuck that

Heineken Helen

JordyWordy wrote:

People Have The Fucking Power.

Indeed... Ireland has spoken Brussels... now's your second chance to just completely ignore us and pretend it didn't happen :rolleyes:

Heineken Helen

I have to go now but have a fantastic fucking weekend everyone... what a great start I'm seeing Bruce in Cardiff tomorrow wooooooooooooooo!

JordyWordy

Heineken Helen wrote:

I have to go now but have a fantastic fucking weekend everyone... what a great start I'm seeing Bruce in Cardiff tomorrow wooooooooooooooo!

enjoy!
bring your "I Voted NO" banner with you!

puremagic

Good work and may the luck the Irish be at the Summit next week.

==============
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080613/ap_on_re_eu/ireland_eu_referendum

By SHAWN POGATCHNIK, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 23 minutes ago

DUBLIN, Ireland - Ireland's voters have rejected the European Union reform treaty, a blueprint for modernizing the 27-nation bloc that cannot become law without Irish approval, electoral officials said Friday.

n a major blow to the EU, 53.4 percent of Irish voters said no to the treaty. Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen now will join other EU leaders at a summit next week to try to negotiate a new way forward.

Anti-treaty groups from the far left and right mobilized "no" voters by claiming that the treaty would empower EU chiefs in Brussels, Belgium, to force Ireland to change core policies — including its low business tax rates, its military neutrality and its ban on abortion.

"This is a very clear and loud voice that has been sent yet again by citizens of Europe rejecting the anti-democratic nature of Brussels governance," said Declan Ganley, leader of Libertas, the most prominent anti-treaty campaign group in Ireland.

The euro common currency fell to a one-month low on the news.

An EU constitution failed after French and Dutch voters rejected it in 2005. Ireland was the only member that subjected its would-be successor, the Lisbon Treaty, to a national vote. The Irish constitution requires all EU treaties to be ratified by referendum.

Ireland's minister for European affairs, Dick Roche, said the country was constitutionally barred from passing the treaty now. He predicted it would be difficult, if not impossible, for EU leaders to find a solution that would permit a second Irish referendum.

"As far as I'm concerned, this treaty is a dead letter," Roche said, adding that Ireland's voters have "made life very difficult for us going out to Brussels. We are in completely uncharted territory here, a very strange position."

In the EU's power base of Brussels and other European capitals, leaders vowed to complete ratification of the Lisbon Treaty through the governments of the other 26 members — even though, legally, the treaty cannot come into force because of the Irish rejection.

At the major ballot-counting center in Dublin, Finance Minister Brian Lenihan struggled to speak to reporters as anti-treaty activists jubilantly drowned him out with songs and chants of "No!" He eventually gave up and walked out, as one activist waved a sign reading "No to foreign rule" over his head.

Rural and working-class areas were almost universally anti-treaty. Better-off parts of Dublin registered stronger support for the EU. In suburban south Dublin, a largely wealthy and highly educated district, the "yes" camp triumphed with 63 percent of the vote. But a neighboring, scruffier district voted 65 percent "no."

The Lisbon Treaty and the failed constitution before it sought to reshape EU powers and institutions in line with the bloc's rapid growth in size and population since 2004.

Both documents proposed to strengthen the roles of the EU's president and foreign policy chief, reduce the areas where individual nations could veto policy changes and increase the powers of the European Parliament to scrutinize EU laws.

Ireland views itself as a pro-EU state that has broadly benefited from 35 years of membership. Yet even here, a majority of voters appeared determined to register their opposition to the growth of a continental government that would erode Ireland's sense of independence.

Anti-treaty pressure groups warned that the EU would use treaty powers to reduce Ireland's ability to control its own tax rates and maintain a ban on abortion. Such claims were vociferously rejected by the government and major opposition parties, all of whom campaigned for the treaty's ratification.

"People felt a convincing case for the treaty had not been made, and they felt hectored and bullied into supporting it while the wool was being pulled over their eyes," said Richard Boyd Barrett, leader of a hard-left pressure group called People Before Profit.

Rhinocerous Surprise

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080613.cosimpson14/BNStory/specialComment/home

The same Canadian guy as before...

Jeffrey Simpson wrote:

The European Union will carry on and, over time, get stronger despite Ireland's vote against the EU's new governing treaty.

Some of the Irish who voted No thought they could stop further European integration. Maybe they can for tiny Ireland, since the country just pulled itself onto an EU political siding. But the 26 other EU member states – most of which have ratified the new constitution the Irish just rejected – aren't going back.

They can't go back. Despite grumbling everywhere in the Union about bureaucracy and regulations emanating from Brussels, the global economy shaped by China and India and Brazil and the United States (with its Canadian appendage), means the member states of the EU need the size and clout of the greater whole or they will be next to powerless.

Ireland will now be a kind of semi-member, its status to be negotiated. It will certainly lose some of its voice within the EU, since its population has rejected the EU's new constitutional arrangements. A country can hardly ask for full status when its people have rejected the constitution of the organization.

Ireland's No will have exhausted most of the good will it had earned within the EU, having already used up some of that good will by its recent demand that Irish (or Gaelic) be considered an official language of the EU despite being spoken, even in Ireland, by a small number of people.

Sinn Fein, the old political arm of the Irish Republican Army, argued that Ireland could negotiate a new deal following a No vote. This was complete nonsense, since to reopen the constitution for Ireland would invite every member state to do likewise, thereby dooming the entire project.

So, no, Ireland is semi-in and semi-out now, the people having rejected what's called the Lisbon Treaty by 53-47 per cent. The biggest No majorities were in the westernmost counties: Donegal, Mayo, Kerry, the nationalist strongholds of yesteryear, farthest from Europe but arguably and ironically the ones most helped by EU regional development funds.

Ireland within the EU, and in part because of the EU, is now a wealthy country, its per capita income above the EU average. As such, it no longer receives all that EU money. After hundreds of years of Irish men and women leaving Ireland, Irish have been returning in large number, and “foreigners” from Eastern Europe and elsewhere have been arriving.

Viewed from the long, sad, proud history of Ireland, this turning of events should be a matter of immense joy, but instead the arrival of the “other” causes complaints about “taking our jobs,” forming ethnic ghettos, disrupting neighbourhoods, upsetting established patterns of life. Remember, large in-migration is something unheard of in the history of Ireland since the Scots arrived centuries ago. Remember, too, when shops and flats in this country in the 19th century would post signs, “Irish Need Not Apply.” (Perhaps we need a national apology for that, too.)

In Ireland, as elsewhere in Europe for that matter, there is a sense of political remoteness. A small, tidy political structure – the Irish use a complicated voting system called a Single Transferable Vote – allowed people to know directly or by reputation all their politicians. Now, decisions are made in Brussels, at EU headquarters, or Strasbourg, seat of the European Parliament, and people feel they have lost control.

The Lisbon Treaty tried to update the EU's arrangements to take account of the 10 new member states. As a result, a small country such as Ireland, which used to always have one member of the powerful European Commission, will now, only periodically, have a commissioner.

This was completely logical from a political-science perspective, but a red flag for the No forces, who said it proved how Ireland would lose influence in a Europe that already was too distant and remote and, they might have added but didn't, now taking Irish money rather than shipping money from Brussels to Dublin.

The EU has never been a military or defence arrangement, yet some critics conjured up the idea that the Lisbon Treaty would imperil Irish neutrality. Others said that somehow supporting Lisbon would jeopardize Ireland's laws against abortion. Most everyone against Lisbon said they did not understand the treaty, which must have meant they had not bothered to read newspapers or watch television news programs, both of which gave considerable coverage to its salient points.

Ireland's political elite favoured the Lisbon Treaty. Perhaps for that very reason, the people said No in a cry of anger at Eurocrats, politicians, rules, regulations and change. Fear of a similar reaction influenced other EU states to keep ratification of Lisbon in the hands of parliaments; Lisbon is a trimmed-down version of earlier constitutional proposals rejected in referendums by the Dutch and French. Nobody in Europe wanted a repeat of those experiences, although they just got one in Ireland.

The EU had to retreat in the face of a No vote in big countries such as France or the Netherlands. It needs only to make an allowance for Ireland, and carry on.

Motherfucker.

Rhinocerous Surprise

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS+FEATURES-qqqm=nav-qqqid=33696-qqqx=1.asp

Dutch voters applaud Irish ‘courage’
15 June 2008 By Isabel Conway in Amsterdam
The Irish government’s campaign for a Yes vote on the Lisbon Treaty ‘‘did not have a hope’’, said Dutch politician Harry van Bommel, a prominent No campaigner.

‘‘They made exactly the same mistakes as our government back in 2005, when Dutch voters threw out a proposed European Constitution. The Irish government started their campaign far too late and they didn’t have any good arguments, except to say that people should be grateful to the European Union for the past,” van Bommel said.

‘‘But this treaty wasn’t about the past; it was about the future – so why bother to vote for a treaty to ensure what we already have? Dutch people, like the Irish, appreciate what the EU has done in terms of prosperity. But this is a new treaty about the future, with huge implications that threaten neutrality, sovereignty, independence, and erode democracy. Irish voters realised all of that, luckily,” he said.

As Dutch prime minister Jan Peter Balkenende bemoaned the Irish No vote, expressing deep disappointment and regret at the outcome, the Dutch public appeared to have a different view.

Dutch newspaper websites were inundated with messages of support for a No vote by early Friday afternoon. News in the previous days had dwelt on the benefits of EU membership for Ireland, the Celtic tiger years and the suggestion that the Irish were committed Europeans and thankful for all the wealth and success that had come their way over the past decade. So, in a way, the outcome was a surprise for many Dutch people.

However, more than 90 per cent of the stream of reactions on the website of the country’s largest newspaper, de Telegraaf, were applauding ‘‘Ireland’s courage’’ as soon as the early tallies were in. The reaction spoke volumes about Dutch people’s frustration over their own government’s treatment of an electorate that, together with the French, had overwhelmingly rejected a European Constitution, forcing the Brussels Eurocrats back to the drawing board.

Responding to the news that Irish voters were turning down the treaty, one said ‘‘they are doing the work our politicians were too cowardly to let us decide. If we had been given another referendum, we could have had our say; but the politicians knew the outcome – so instead, they decided on our behalf.”

In an effort to spark off a debate in parliament, more than 44,000 signatures were collected in the Netherlands, urging a referendum. But van Bommel, European Affairs spokesman for the Socialist Party, was the only member of parliament to accept the petition.

He has called on Balkenende to respect ‘‘Irish voters’ right to reject the treaty’’, by stopping the ratification process immediately in the Netherlands. ‘‘We voted down much of what is in this Treaty; it isn’t fair to ignore the Irish right to say No; we Dutch should do the fair and decent thing and accept Ireland’s No for what it is,” he said.

Nice to have some popular opinion on our side.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080613.cosimpson14/BNStory/specialComment/home

The same Canadian guy as before...



Motherfucker.

Ireland's No will have exhausted most of the good will it had earned within the EU, having already used up some of that good will by its recent demand that Irish (or Gaelic) be considered an official language of the EU despite being spoken, even in Ireland, by a small number of people

who the fuck IS this guy? I want a picture and his address :mad: I love how people are now saying WHY we voted no... when they're obviously completely out of the loop anyway. I didn't hold any banners, post any posters, I doubt you or any of the other Irish posting here did either... unfortunately those people now represent us, the no people , and unfortunately many of them also talk an awful lot of shite :( but that's life eh? I'm off to email a few government ministers and tell them WHY I voted no. Need to articulate it first I think.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS+FEATURES-qqqm=nav-qqqid=33696-qqqx=1.asp



Nice to have some popular opinion on our side.

Nice read... gives me some hope. Unfortunately we can only know opinions in other countries through posters here and the media... neither of which ALWAYS represent the actual people and opinions.

Collin

JordyWordy wrote:

People Have The Fucking Power.

Your Poll is still in favour of No too Hels, awesome.

The few posts above really highlighted what i couldnt understand about the whole thing...WHY change the EU? so it can be federal, bypass citizens on even more major issues???? not everyone wants the EU to become that.

The intial form of the Benelux/EC/EU was to help rebuild with a vision of avoiding war by having many complementing benefits and dependencies on neighbours........and now the EU itself wants to effectively become a superpower-esque continental organisation

Common Infrsatructure, Trade, Currency & Fiscal Rates, Contributing to developing less fortunate countries.....that is cool.

Common Army, Dilution of civil democracy & Lowered thresholds for passing laws, and Co-Decision processses.......That aint the EC/EU i grew up with. Fuck that...

Exactly. They want to become the USE.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

who the fuck IS this guy? I want a picture and his address :mad: I love how people are now saying WHY we voted no... when they're obviously completely out of the loop anyway. I didn't hold any banners, post any posters, I doubt you or any of the other Irish posting here did either... unfortunately those people now represent us, the no people , and unfortunately many of them also talk an awful lot of shite :( but that's life eh? I'm off to email a few government ministers and tell them WHY I voted no. Need to articulate it first I think.

I love that he blatantly ignored the reasons I gave him for voting no. He's clearly on some pro-France, anti-Ireland bender, and doesn't even want to stop to consider democracy. :mad: I was thinking about e-mailing him again, and just saying:

Dear sir,

Suck my EU member.