Lisbon Treaty?

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

:eek: not to be patronising or anything... but one thing that reinforces my 'no' opinion is that most on the no camp at least seem to have half a clue what they're voting FOR :eek:

Ahhhh... sure wouldn't the 1916 leaders be spinning in their graves right now :(

"Romantic Ireland's dead and gone
It's with O'Leary in the grave."

:(

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

"Romantic Ireland's dead and gone
It's with O'Leary in the grave."

:(

:( too true! Gotta love Yeats THIS is the problem I have with modern Ireland... nothing to do with neutrality or globalisation or any of that... but we're losing our core values, our identity!

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

:( too true! Gotta love Yeats THIS is the problem I have with modern Ireland... nothing to do with neutrality or globalisation or any of that... but we're losing our core values, our identity!

Every day, we're less Ireland, and more European Country #16, or something. It's the price of progress, and we're paying it in Euros instead of Punts. :(

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Every day, we're less Ireland, and more European Country #16, or something. It's the price of progress, and we're paying it in Euros instead of Punts. :(

I think the underlying reason that I was always gonna vote no... is cos I fucking HATE Europe . I really really do... I think we should just leave... if we leave others will follow... and if they don't, fuck em... we can go back to agriculture. I think Irish people are WAY too laid back to actually survive the rat race.

United States of Europe :mad: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

I think the underlying reason that I was always gonna vote no... is cos I fucking HATE Europe . I really really do... I think we should just leave... if we leave others will follow... and if they don't, fuck em... we can go back to agriculture. I think Irish people are WAY too laid back to actually survive the rat race.

United States of Europe :mad: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Either that, or Europe needs to slow down to Ireland's leisurely pace.

We'll just lock all the fanatically pro-Europe folks in the Finance District - they'll enjoy themselves there, I think - and take the rest of the country back for ourselves.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Either that, or Europe needs to slow down to Ireland's leisurely pace.

We'll just lock all the fanatically pro-Europe folks in the Finance District - they'll enjoy themselves there, I think - and take the rest of the country back for ourselves.

ya know... actually that's not a bad idea. We can call the financial district 'Dublin' and the rest of the country 'Ireland', keep it pretty simple like

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

ya know... actually that's not a bad idea. We can call the financial district 'Dublin' and the rest of the country 'Ireland', keep it pretty simple like

It'll be like ye olde Pale, except this time, we won't want it back.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

It'll be like ye olde Pale, except this time, we won't want it back.

absolutely.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

absolutely.

And my yes-voting brother already works there! It's like my work's being done for me!

Jennytree

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3750417.ece

Corrs guitarist Jim Corr has claimed that there was overwhelming evidence that the 9/11 attacks in America were carried out by "rogue elements" of US President George Bush's "neo-con administration".

In a rare intervention into the political arena, the male singer with The Corrs band also came out against the Lisbon Treaty claiming that it is " tip-toe totalitarianism in the West".

In an interview with Matt Cooper on Ireland's Today FM's 'Last Word', Corr made the case for voting 'No' to Lisbon, claiming it could introduce the death penalty to Ireland and contribute to a "new world order".

Corr's opposition is based on his three years "studying the New World Order which the European Union is a part of".

He said "the EU is a stepping stone towards a world government, they will merge it with the Asia Pacific Union, the African Union and the North American Union". The Lisbon Treaty itself will introduce "a scientific technocracy" to Europe which will erode national sovereignty.

Corr claimed that The Charter of Fundamental Rights allows for the introduction of the death penalty.

"It makes provision for the introduction to law for the death penalty in times of war or imminent threat of war.

"What we are seeing is tip-toe totalitarianism in the West with 9/11 the key to understanding this.

"When you study 9/11 it becomes very apparent... it was a staged terrorist attack, what they call a false flag operation."

Corr said overwhelming evidence suggests 9/11 "was carried out by rogue elements in the Bush neo-con administration".

Yes, Jim

Rhinocerous Surprise

Jennytree wrote:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article3750417.ece

Yes, Jim

Why do all public advocates of the No vote have to be idiots, or Sinn Féin, or as is usually the case, both? :(

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Why do all public advocates of the No vote have to be idiots, or Sinn Féin, or as is usually the case, both? :(

I really don't get it and it's not doing anyone any good. Also, why the fuck does Jim Corr get front page? He wouldn't any other time... so it suggests more to me how the media are slyly biased. I don't like what's going on.

Collin

Heineken Helen wrote:

I think the underlying reason that I was always gonna vote no... is cos I fucking HATE Europe . I really really do... I think we should just leave... if we leave others will follow... and if they don't, fuck em... we can go back to agriculture. I think Irish people are WAY too laid back to actually survive the rat race.

United States of Europe :mad: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

One of the only good things the EU has done is made travel between member states easier. But you don't need a EU for that!

I love Europe as a continent, not as a giant political entity.

Heineken Helen

Collin wrote:

One of the only good things the EU has done is made travel between member states easier. But you don't need a EU for that!

I love Europe as a continent, not as a giant political entity.

Agreed... and agreed!

LoveRock333

Why?

Because we can! It'll be like the Nice Treaty all over again. Remember how much fun that was? Yeah.

Heineken Helen

LoveRock333 wrote:

Why?

Because we can! It'll be like the Nice Treaty all over again. Remember how much fun that was? Yeah.

definitely. It's strange though, you've the likes of Jenny here saying there must be a reason we're the only country who get to vote so she's voting yes... then my housemate who's quite right wing is voting no for all the people who don't have a vote. It's strange to predict what way people are going to vote. I discovered at the weekend that my father, who's given up on politics recently, is strongly yes . Alot of the older generation seem to be voting yes cos they've fallen for the scaremongering... a few of them speak of how things were in the past and think Ireland will go back to how bad things were in the 80s if we vote no

LoveRock333

Heineken Helen wrote:

definitely. It's strange though, you've the likes of Jenny here saying there must be a reason we're the only country who get to vote so she's voting yes... then my housemate who's quite right wing is voting no for all the people who don't have a vote. It's strange to predict what way people are going to vote. I discovered at the weekend that my father, who's given up on politics recently, is strongly yes . Alot of the older generation seem to be voting yes cos they've fallen for the scaremongering... a few of them speak of how things were in the past and think Ireland will go back to how bad things were in the 80s if we vote no

I've noticed that too, my dad is all for the treaty (very conservative) and my ma is usually somewhat liberal but she's saying yes too, though she's reconsidering it lately now that a few new facts that were "omitted" from the information booklet are coming to light. We'd be giving up our right to vote on future treaties giving the power to the politicians, the same ones who thought it best not to tell us that we are giving them power... Interesting in its own little way.

I'm all for a European government though, but not at the expense of a certain amount of national identity. And certainly not at the expense of proper democracy as is the case with Lisbon.

Rhinocerous Surprise

LoveRock333 wrote:

I've noticed that too, my dad is all for the treaty (very conservative) and my ma is usually somewhat liberal but she's saying yes too, though she's reconsidering it lately now that a few new facts that were "omitted" from the information booklet are coming to light. We'd be giving up our right to vote on future treaties giving the power to the politicians, the same ones who thought it best not to tell us that we are giving them power... Interesting in its own little way.

I'm all for a European government though, but not at the expense of a certain amount of national identity. And certainly not at the expense of proper democracy as is the case with Lisbon.

Look at you, posting-things-up! Times like this, it'd be useful if you'd bothered to register, guy!

Heineken Helen

LoveRock333 wrote:

I've noticed that too, my dad is all for the treaty (very conservative) and my ma is usually somewhat liberal but she's saying yes too, though she's reconsidering it lately now that a few new facts that were "omitted" from the information booklet are coming to light. We'd be giving up our right to vote on future treaties giving the power to the politicians, the same ones who thought it best not to tell us that we are giving them power... Interesting in its own little way.

I'm all for a European government though, but not at the expense of a certain amount of national identity. And certainly not at the expense of proper democracy as is the case with Lisbon.

Yip, I find the whole process very interesting. I've just read 1984 BAD timing! :eek:

LoveRock333

Heineken Helen wrote:

Yip, I find the whole process very interesting. I've just read 1984 BAD timing! :eek:

I can't see that happening here though... I mean... C'mon, Brian Cow(m)an isn't capable of that kind of thing.

The upside to the whole Lisbon thing is that if it does go through, it'll make my takeover as benevolent dictator that much simpler! Hurray!

puremagic

I have some questions, or maybe it's more of an observation. First, let me say this post is an interesting read.

My observation, it seems like we're dividing the world up into blocs of them vs us, kind of like the old Communist bloc countries? What usually happens when a country tries to breakway form its bloc?

Question: Does the Poland under the Lisbon Treaty have to get EU approval, before it can permit the U.S. to build a missile defense shield within it borders?

Question: Does the EU under the Lisbon Treaty decide which countries would sent troops to Iraq if requested?

Question: How does this work in conjunction with NATO members and UN member countries that are now bound by this Lisbon Treaty?

The word Treaty means that someone is losing, someone is making concessions, someone is giving up a lot for "WHAT". This still looks like the blueprint of the U.S. and UK for the EU, especially, with all those emerging Eastern Europe countries that will need help from the IMF and the World Bank, what strain does that put on individual countries like Ireland or the EU/Lisbon Treaty members as a whole. Seems like a win-win situation for the G8 members.

My observation, it seems like we're dividing the world up into blocs of them vs us. I guess, if I had the opportunity to have a say, I'd like to know what I'm giving up to be a member of this Treaty.

LoveRock333

puremagic wrote:

I have some questions, or maybe it's more of an observation. First, let me say this post is an interesting read.

My observation, it seems like we're dividing the world up into blocs of them vs us, kind of like the old Communist bloc countries? What usually happens when a country tries to breakway form its bloc?

Question: Does the Poland under the Lisbon Treaty have to get EU approval, before it can permit the U.S. to build a missile defense shield within it borders?

Question: Does the EU under the Lisbon Treaty decide which countries would sent troops to Iraq if requested?

Question: How does this work in conjunction with NATO members and UN member countries that are now bound by this Lisbon Treaty?

The word Treaty means that someone is losing, someone is making concessions, someone is giving up a lot for "WHAT". This still looks like the blueprint of the U.S. and UK for the EU, especially, with all those emerging Eastern Europe countries that will need help from the IMF and the World Bank, what strain does that put on individual countries like Ireland or the EU/Lisbon Treaty members as a whole. Seems like a win-win situation for the G8 members.

My observation, it seems like we're dividing the world up into blocs of them vs us. I guess, if I had the opportunity to have a say, I'd like to know what I'm giving up to be a member of this Treaty.

Firstly, the Lisbon Treaty is vague and mysterious... We're not really even allowed to see it before we vote. Out politicians give us a brief (extremely biased) summary and then we're all meant to vote YES.

But in answer to your questions: Yeah, Poland would probably have to consult with the EU before a missile shield is installed, but that's not because of this Treaty, I don't think.
No, countries who decide to join another in a war do not have to ask permission from the EU to go to war.
Finally, the Lisbon Treaty has to work around the already existing military alliances (ie: NATO) and, lets face it, the UN has no real power so no one cares what they think if at all.

Is the world forming large blocs? They are in the Eurovision song contest, let me tell you that much. But if they end up forming one large bloc (ie: a single world governement) I'm all for it! And unfortunately, each separate bloc is just the formation of the components necessary to get there. So hopefully there'll be no more Cold War-like awfulness.

As for the some countries giving concessions to make this Treaty, they're usually only small concessions. Ireland is giving up its right for the people to vote on every Treaty in the future, but there's also a very neat opt-out clause that lets up recind our vote in about 3 years if we want to. Other countries like the UK have special versions of the Lisbon Treaty, so no one is really giving anything up per se.

The Treaty actually makes leaving the EU (if a country wants to) a lot easier than it is at the moment. But the way in which the Lisbon Treaty was brought about was very underhanded and even downright sneaky on the parts of the politicians, so I wouldn't trust it personally.

Heineken Helen

There will also be a common European defence that Ireland doesn't have to be involved in. All countries (with the exception of Ireland alone, I believe) will have to defend any other EU country which may be attacked. And I do believe the urgent call to make Europe stronger is directly related to the US going out on its own more and more. The bigger countries (UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and to a lesser extent Poland) definitely gain more power... for example, where the majority voting is in play... it would only take 3 of those countries plus one or two smaller countries to outvote the rest... or 4 of them could simply get together. This could create a situation in the future where central Europe (Germany, France, Italy & Spain) simply get together and outvote ALL the other countries on everything :eek: . Who said Germany lost the war, eh?

Loverock, what's this opt out clause?

puremagic

LoveRock333 wrote:

Firstly, the Lisbon Treaty is vague and mysterious... We're not really even allowed to see it before we vote. Out politicians give us a brief (extremely biased) summary and then we're all meant to vote YES.

http://www.nationalplatform.org/wordpress/

This cite has a lot of articles on the Lisbon Treaty and how it will affect Ireland although most of it is for why you should vote No. I will say it direct and to the point of what your vote will accomplish in the name of Ireland and its people.

Good luck, just vote your consciousness.
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Archive for the ‘Lisbon Treaty’ Category

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*Treaty of Lisbon: Not just another EU treaty

Tuesday, May 6th, 2008

LISBON - NOT JUST ANOTHER EU TREATY

Below are the two key sentences of the amendment which you will be asked to put into the Irish Constitution on Thursday 12 June. If people vote Yes they will be giving the European Union the constitutional form of a Federal EU State, in which Ireland would become a provincial state or region. This would be the end of Ireland’s position as an independent sovereign country. The French and Dutch have already rejected this proposal in referendums. By voting No we remain full EU Members based on the Nice Treaty, but we reject the Lisbon Treaty as a step too far. Millions of Europeans who are being denied referendums on Lisbon by their politicians, are hoping that we will say No to it for their sakes.

“ The State may ratify the Treaty of Lisbon signed at Lisbon on the 13th day of December 2007, and may be a member of the European Union established by virtue of that Treaty. No provision of this [Irish] Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by membership of the European Union, or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the said European Union or by institutions thereof, or by bodies competent under the treaties referred to in this section, from having the force of law in the State” (emphasis added)
- 28th Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 2008 What the Irish people will be voting on in the referendum


The Lisbon Treaty would


1. Establish a legally quite new European Union in the constitutional form of a Federal EU State. This new EU based on the Lisbon Treaty would have the same name but would be fundamentally different from the present EU, which was founded by the 1993 Maastricht Treaty. The first sentence above shows this. Lisbon would turn Ireland into a provincial or regional state within this new Union, with the EU’s Constitution and laws being made superior to the Irish Constitution and laws in any case of conflict between the two. It would be the end of Ireland’s position as an independent sovereign State in the international community of States (Arts.1 and 47 TEU; Declaration No.17 concerning Primacy);


2. Turn us all into real citizens for the first time of this new post-Lisbon European Union, owing obedience to its laws and loyalty to its authority over and above our obedience and loyalty to Ireland and the Irish Constitution and laws. One can only be a citizen of a State. We would retain our Irish citizenship, but it would be subordinate to our EU Federal citizenship, as is normal for citizens of Federal States such as Germany, the USA, Switzerland, Canada etc. (Art.9 TEU);

3. Be a power-grab by the Big States for control of this new Union. By basing EU law-making primarily on population size, the Lisbon Treaty would double Germany’s say on the EU Council of Ministers from 8% to 17%. France’s say would go from 8% to 13%, Britain’s and Italy’s from their current 8% to 12% each. Ireland’s voting weight on a population basis would be more than halved to 1% (Art.16 TEU);


4. Amend the existing treaties to give the EU Court of Justice the power to rule against Ireland’s 12.5% company tax rate if it decides that this causes a “distortion of competition” in the EU internal market as compared with Germany’s 30% rate (Art.113 TFEU). This low rate of tax is the principal reason for foreign firms coming to Ireland and staying here when they come. Lisbon would also give the EU the power to impose its own EU taxes directly on us for the first time (Art.311 TFEU);


5. Copperfasten last December’s Laval/Vaxholm judgement of the EU Court of Justice, which makes it illegal for Governments or Trade Unions to enforce pay standards higher than the minimum wage for migrant workers. At the same time Lisbon would give the EU full control of immigration policy (Art.79 TFEU). This combination threatens the pay and working conditions of large numbers of Irish people. A new Treaty Protocol is needed to set the Laval judgement aside;

6. Remove any Irish voice from the EU Commission, the body which has the monopoly of proposing all EU laws, for five years out of every 15 (Art.17.5 TEU);

7. Abolish our right to decide who the Irish Commissioner is when it comes to our turn to be on the Commission, replacing it by a right to make “suggestions” only for the new Commission President to decide (Art.17.7 TEU);

8. Hand over to the EU the power to make laws binding on us in 32 new policy areas, such as crime, justice and policing, public services, immigration, energy, transport, tourism, sport, culture, public health, the EU budget etc.;

9. Give the EU Court of Justice the power to decide our rights as EU citizens, including such matters as the right to life, the right to strike, the rights of the child, the right to fair trial etc. Ireland’s Supreme Court would no longer have the final say on
what our rights are (Art.6 TEU);10. Be a self-amending Treaty which would permit the EU Prime Ministers to shift most of the remaining policy areas where unanimity still exists, to majority voting, without a need for new EU Treaties or referendums (Art.48 TEU);

11. Militarize the EU further, requiring Member States “to progressively improve their military capabilities” and to go to the defence of other Member States in the event of war (Art.42.7 TEU).

* * *

Issued for public information by The National Platform EU Research and Information Centre, 24 Crawford Ave., Dublin 9; Tel.: 01-8305792; Web-site: http://www.nationalplatform.org/ ; Secretary Anthony Coughlan; Please photocopy this information sheet and pass it on to others.

Heineken Helen

thank you puremagic. We've a big responsibility indeed... I would say this vote coming up is even bigger than the US general election. Voting yes will change the way europe operates forever

Rhinocerous Surprise

Hooray! The no vote is now 5 percent clear of the yes vote in polls! Eat THAT, so-called Planet of the Apes!

catefrances

who is pushing this? and why? and i mean why really? none of that how its the best thing for europe, cause that just sounds like bollocks. and is ALL of europe involved? is germany behind this cause you know... last time they tried making europe one big happy place it went a bit awry

Rhinocerous Surprise

catefrances wrote:

who is pushing this? and why? and i mean why really? none of that how its the best thing for europe, cause that just sounds like bollocks. and is ALL of europe involved? is germany behind this cause you know... last time they tried making europe one big happy place it went a bit awry

That's pretty much the only argument they seem to have - this treaty is going to make Europe better, in so many vague ways that are "too complex to explain". The main thrust of it is that it will allow the EU to run more efficiently, or some such crap.

A message from Ireland's Taoíseach/Prime Minister: "One of the most important reasons why Ireland has benefited so much from membership of the European Union is that we have been positive members [...] I believe we should remain true ot our positive European tradition. We should support a Treaty which helps make an EU, which has done so much for Ireland, work efficiently and effectively in the face of ever-changing challenges."

In other words: "Vote yes! It's what we've always done!"

Hmm. I seem to have allowed my "no" bias to seep in.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

That's pretty much the only argument they seem to have - this treaty is going to make Europe better, in so many vague ways that are "too complex to explain". The main thrust of it is that it will allow the EU to run more efficiently, or some such crap.

thats why many people are voting no. I was glad to see those results this morning too... although polls tend to have their purposes

TBH, I really don't think the government WANTS us to vote yes... only they can't push for a no vote.

catefrances

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

That's pretty much the only argument they seem to have - this treaty is going to make Europe better, in so many vague ways that are "too complex to explain". The main thrust of it is that it will allow the EU to run more efficiently, or some such crap.

A message from Ireland's Taoíseach/Prime Minister: "One of the most important reasons why Ireland has benefited so much from membership of the European Union is that we have been positive members [...] I believe we should remain true ot our positive European tradition. We should support a Treaty which helps make an EU, which has done so much for Ireland, work efficiently and effectively in the face of ever-changing challenges."

In other words: "Vote yes! It's what we've always done!"

Hmm. I seem to have allowed my "no" bias to seep in.

just as i thought... the blah blah blah argument.
make europe better. better than what?