Gun rampage in Nebraska shopping mall.

mammasan

fanch75 wrote:

Dude, seriously, wtf is that all about?

dunkman and anyone else - don't believe this for one second. I work in offices with all races, nationalities, & religions and no one has "gone home in a box" because of it.

I work in the city that probably has the highest amounts of tourists, NYC, and I don't hear of any tourists going home in a box.

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

The problem here is that it is way to easy to purchase a gun. As long as you don't have a criminal background and are old enough, in some states you can just walk into a Walmart and in 15-20 minutes walk out owning a weapon. I believe that a responsible adult should have the right to own a firearm, but the problem is that some states will allow just anyone to own them. That has to change. Here in New Jersey there are tons of illegal weapons on the streets and 90% of the illegal firearms that are confiscated where purchased from states with lax firearms laws and illegal transported and sold within this state.

ah, my friend. most of the illegal firearms are smuggled into the country. sure; there are unscrupulous gun dealers who will sell illegally; but the black market has tapped into that so much; that it's fading fast. illegal guns now are mostly stolen; usually from hijacked shipments; or brought over the border. you can buy a nice stolen handgun on the streets for about $300. a dealer has to first buy the gun, then add a profit to make it worth 12 years of federal penetenury time. and that gun can always be tracked back to him. how can a dealer compete with that?
(i had an FFL for 6 years.)

even flow?

fanch75 wrote:

Interesting also that this thread took only a few replies to degenerate into a gun debate, as opposed to the tragedy that happened, killing people buying Christmas presents at the mall.

Don't worry fanch when the story comes to light about this kid we will have prescription drugs to talk about too.

soulsinging

onelongsong wrote:

that's the way it used to work in phoenix. i don't know about now. if i had been there i would've shot the guy. i'm sure joe horn would've too. there's still a lot of us that will protect others instead of hiding under a table.

what do i win jeanie?

mammasan

onelongsong wrote:

ah, my friend. most of the illegal firearms are smuggled into the country. sure; there are unscrupulous gun dealers who will sell illegally; but the black market has tapped into that so much; that it's fading fast. illegal guns now are mostly stolen; usually from hijacked shipments; or brought over the border. you can buy a nice stolen handgun on the streets for about $300. a dealer has to first buy the gun, then add a profit to make it worth 12 years of federal penetenury time. and that gun can always be tracked back to him. how can a dealer compete with that?
(i had an FFL for 6 years.)

Well I'm going by statistics issued by the NJ State Police department, I can't comment on other states but my own. The majority of illegal guns in this state where purchase in another state. A high percentage of them actually came from Virginia. So if all 50 states just did a little more than just run a quick background check maybe a good percentage of illegal guns would be off the streets in this country and fucked up nutcases like this one kid and the kid from Virginia Tech wouldn't be shooting people.

NJ actually has a good system. You need to go to your town's police department and fill out an application. This is then processed and a detailed background check is initiated. Any adult living with you has to come into the police department to give permission for you to store that weapon in the residence. You then have to take a owner's safety course and once all of this is completed you obtain the permit to go and purchase a firearm. With this system all bases are covered.

NMyTree

Maybe if the media would STOP publishing photos of these kids/people who go on shooting sprees and refuse to even mention the shooter's name on TV, the internet and in newsprint; then maybe the glorification of such attacks who cease.

Everyone had to see this coming. Copycat shooting sprees from disturbed individuals who believe they will become famous .........an icon in Pop Culture; their name to go down in history.

Stop publishing the identity and image of the shooters and you will see these type of shootings (schools, Malls ...etc) fade away.

onelongsong

dunkman wrote:

you dont have a choice unfortunately... i'll do what i fucking wish... and no amount of stupid american going home in a box jibes will stop me... i'll be bringing my kids as well... and if you suggest they are coming home in a box then i'll personally look you up

just don't wear your dress.

OutOfBreath

onelongsong wrote:

spot on mate. i'd never deny it and i'd never give up my guns no matter how many laws they pass. this country exists because of guns. we won freedom from the crown with guns. we traveled westward and blazed a country because of guns. and we fought for our freedom on our own soil; and it was the armed citizen that won those wars. the crown came twice to take our freedom. the spanish came too. as did the mexicans. (remember the alamo!). in every war fought on american soil; it was the armed citizen that won that war.

I'd put serious question marks behind spain and mexico "coming to get you" as any light reading of history will show. Manifest destiny, anyone?

But yeah, you illustrated my point nicely about americans' relationship with guns and the use of them with deadly force. Which shows in murder/crime stats and ratio of guns pr people quite clearly. A country where people seriously sleep with a gun under their pillow or in their night table, and doing so gets them kudos for being smart, well, glad I'm not there.

I'll just leave it with an Eddie Izzard quote:
"They say that guns dont kill people, people do, but you know... I think the gun helps!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsN0FCXw914

Peace
Dan

gue_barium

onelongsong wrote:

and please do us the honour of staying in your own country. we don't want you here and we've got the guns to back it. don't risk your life coming here. you've got a good chance of going home in a box. especially if your in the wrong place and stick out as a foriegner.

if only law enforcement should have guns; where the bloody hell was law enforcement while this bloke shot 9 people? criminals will always use guns against us. it's bloody insane to think that disarming innocent people will improve the problem.

See, OLS, when you say things like that you only reinforce the notion that dunkman was trying to impress on you about an American fixation on guns, and the damage they can do to other people.
I don't think that's it at all. If American's have an unhealthy fixation, and I think this possibly includes you, it is one of being in the spotlight and taking charge...

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

I work in the city that probably has the highest amounts of tourists, NYC, and I don't hear of any tourists going home in a box.

you're on the other side of the world from me. what i mostly get is L.A. news. there's always stories about people walking on the wrong side of the street and even a story about a bloke that got shot down for wearing a red hat.

i was being scarcastic because of his (had to be) drunken rant. he spent hours bashing the us and how bloody dangerous it is here; and how everyone is shooting everyone else; then out of the other side of his mouth he's bringing his family and he's going to do whatever he damn well pleases. i say good luck with that. if you bring that attitude out west; someone will put you in your place really quick. i don't know how much shite you easterners will take; but we don't take it here. there's a lot of wilderness people can disappear in. and thousands do.

gue_barium

OutOfBreath wrote:

I'd put serious question marks behind spain and mexico "coming to get you" as any light reading of history will show. Manifest destiny, anyone?

But yeah, you illustrated my point nicely about americans' relationship with guns and the use of them with deadly force. Which shows in murder/crime stats and ratio of guns pr people quite clearly. A country where people seriously sleep with a gun under their pillow or in their night table, and doing so gets them kudos for being smart, well, glad I'm not there.

I'll just leave it with an Eddie Izzard quote:
"They say that guns dont kill people, people do, but you know... I think the gun helps!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsN0FCXw914

Peace
Dan

I think here is an unreasonable stereotype coming from you concerning "americans and guns" and the politic loves to show the statistics of gun-related deaths to back it up. Again, I don't think this is a "fixation" of Americans and their guns so much as it is the unreasonable fixation in which some (a majority of?) Americans see themselves as leaders of the "free world." There is a difference. And it manifests itself in ways that go way beyond gun death statistics in this country.

mammasan

onelongsong wrote:

you're on the other side of the world from me. what i mostly get is L.A. news. there's always stories about people walking on the wrong side of the street and even a story about a bloke that got shot down for wearing a red hat.

Well that's because LA is a fucked up place. Most Major US cities are extremely safe.

onelongsong

gue_barium wrote:

See, OLS, when you say things like that you only reinforce the notion that dunkman was trying to impress on you about an American fixation on guns, and the damage they can do to other people.
I don't think that's it at all. If American's have an unhealthy fixation, and I think this possibly includes you, it is one of being in the spotlight and taking charge...

i have to agree with you gue. i really do. mostly due to ignorance on his part. but is a carpenter fixated with his hammer? is a painter fixated with his paintbrush? i offered jeremy a chance to walk in my shoes a bit. i keep 3 loaded handguns ready at all times. a .38 with a snake load; a .22 with bird shot to settle down any buffalo getting too rough; and a .44 mag full load for charging buffalo or mountain loin. just as a painter has different brushes or a carpenter has different hammers; i have the tools of my trade. i was held at gunpoint because i didn't carry my gun that day. i only went outside to watch the sunset over the mountains. but i've also saved a life because i was carrying my gun. so if he wants to make ignorant statements; i'll fan his fire. if he wants to make bigoted statements based on that ignorance and stereotype people into one group; let him. we cannot control what the ignorant think or believe. we can only hope they're not elected to a position of power. after almost 52 years on this earth i've learned that those types of people; are the future hitlers. i can name a president as an example but that's getting off topic.

soulsinging

onelongsong wrote:

i have to agree with you gue. i really do. mostly due to ignorance on his part. but is a carpenter fixated with his hammer? is a painter fixated with his paintbrush? i offered jeremy a chance to walk in my shoes a bit. i keep 3 loaded handguns ready at all times. a .38 with a snake load; a .22 with bird shot to settle down any buffalo getting too rough; and a .44 mag full load for charging buffalo or mountain loin. just as a painter has different brushes or a carpenter has different hammers; i have the tools of my trade. i was held at gunpoint because i didn't carry my gun that day. i only went outside to watch the sunset over the mountains. but i've also saved a life because i was carrying my gun. so if he wants to make ignorant statements; i'll fan his fire. if he wants to make bigoted statements based on that ignorance and stereotype people into one group; let him. we cannot control what the ignorant think or believe. we can only hope they're not elected to a position of power. after almost 52 years on this earth i've learned that those types of people; are the future hitlers. i can name a president as an example but that's getting off topic.

or perhaps instead of playing up to the stereotype you could tone down the rhetoric a bit and have a normal conversation about it that melt help him revise slightly his bigotry. i recall once a very long time ago you and i reached a similar agreement and found our views are not so far apart. but when you act like a douchebag, it accomplishes nothing for no one.

onelongsong

OutOfBreath wrote:

I'd put serious question marks behind spain and mexico "coming to get you" as any light reading of history will show. Manifest destiny, anyone?

But yeah, you illustrated my point nicely about americans' relationship with guns and the use of them with deadly force. Which shows in murder/crime stats and ratio of guns pr people quite clearly. A country where people seriously sleep with a gun under their pillow or in their night table, and doing so gets them kudos for being smart, well, glad I'm not there.

I'll just leave it with an Eddie Izzard quote:
"They say that guns dont kill people, people do, but you know... I think the gun helps!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsN0FCXw914

Peace
Dan

the gun does help dan. but we have other crimes. people that go off and purposely run down innocent people on the street. people that will set a building on fire while the occupants sleep. people who make pipe bombs filled with nails; people who fly planes into buildings. and the knowing that if there had been a trained; armed citizen present; they could have stopped it. those things take much more human life. freedom has a price. you're an island and can secure your borders much easier. if the queen saw a problem; she can make a decision without being sued for discrimination or having hundreds of these illegal people march on the palace waving their native flag. that's just an example off the top of me head. i heard it explained perfectly but i haven't been to sleep and i can't remember it. are people sueing your government to have religious items removed from government property? i know you have freedom but it's a different freedom here. too free i'd say. but we've got to make the best of it. even if it is a sticky wicket.

OutOfBreath

gue_barium wrote:

I think here is an unreasonable stereotype coming from you concerning "americans and guns" and the politic loves to show the statistics of gun-related deaths to back it up. Again, I don't think this is a "fixation" of Americans and their guns so much as it is the unreasonable fixation in which some (a majority of?) Americans see themselves as leaders of the "free world." There is a difference. And it manifests itself in ways that go way beyond gun death statistics in this country.

So, americans seeing themselves as the leaders of the free world, cause them to be more violent, and with guns? Not sure I followed your argument there...

But another theory could be that the immense differences between rich and poor and the lack of significant redstribution to large portions of the populace breeds a more desperate and potentially violent environment, as many poor people have nothing, and hence nothing to lose. This is what is often seen in other countries the US dont want to be compared with. That one sit better by you?

Peace
Dan

jeffbr

OutOfBreath wrote:

So, americans seeing themselves as the leaders of the free world, cause them to be more violent, and with guns? Not sure I followed your argument there...

But another theory could be that the immense differences between rich and poor and the lack of significant redstribution to large portions of the populace breeds a more desperate and potentially violent environment, as many poor people have nothing, and hence nothing to lose. This is what is often seen in other countries the US dont want to be compared with. That one sit better by you?

Peace
Dan

So you're suggesting that we placate the thieves and looters by creating policies that steal from the wealthy and pay bribes to the poor?

OutOfBreath

jeffbr wrote:

So you're suggesting that we placate the thieves and looters by creating policies that steal from the wealthy and pay bribes to the poor?

No, I suggest governance that is essentially social democratic, providing the basics for all, so that you wont have desperate people with guns shooting anyone wearing a watch to grab it. When you have a somewhat egalitarian and safe society, the amount of looters and thieves go down. There is a connection between "on your own, punk" and thieving/looting... Thieving/looting brings the need for guns for all.

Peace
Dan

onelongsong

soulsinging wrote:

or perhaps instead of playing up to the stereotype you could tone down the rhetoric a bit and have a normal conversation about it that melt help him revise slightly his bigotry. i recall once a very long time ago you and i reached a similar agreement and found our views are not so far apart. but when you act like a douchebag, it accomplishes nothing for no one.

exactly; but until his ignorance of our situation changes; there's no middle ground to be found. he wasn't bashing me. if he was i would have considered the source. he was bashing every american. i was the one that stood up to him. i posted my use of guns in a post above. i'm sure you would find it reasonable. i also posted to jeremy my true thoughts on deadly force. i know you'd agree with those. so i'm not being unreasonable. bigots will be bigots so you've got to let it go.

soulsinging

onelongsong wrote:

exactly; but until his ignorance of our situation changes; there's no middle ground to be found. he wasn't bashing me. if he was i would have considered the source. he was bashing every american. i was the one that stood up to him. i posted my use of guns in a post above. i'm sure you would find it reasonable. i also posted to jeremy my true thoughts on deadly force. i know you'd agree with those. so i'm not being unreasonable. bigots will be bigots so you've got to let it go.

your heated and incendiary rhetoric obscures any content you claim to be getting across. it is lost in the baiting you do.