How Many Here Have Even Read The Bible?
eden
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Seriously....for instance, everyone always wants to know why organized religion can be so evil but if they actually read the Bible they would see that one of The main themes of it is to watch out for Bad men who would use it for unrighteous gain (war and money.)
Also everyone is down on Jesus yet HE was persecuted then killed by the religious leaders of the day (Pharisees).They were cruel to the commoners and he protected them.
They constantly mocked him for asscociating with prostitutes and criminals, but all he saw were peoples hearts. He only saw people at a heart level and that is so beautiful to me and how we should all strive to be.
Also everyone is down on Jesus yet HE was persecuted then killed by the religious leaders of the day (Pharisees).They were cruel to the commoners and he protected them.
They constantly mocked him for asscociating with prostitutes and criminals, but all he saw were peoples hearts. He only saw people at a heart level and that is so beautiful to me and how we should all strive to be.
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i didn't think the bible alone representative of all organized religion, and there are other 'holy books' out there as well. should we all read the qu'ran too? i mean sure, i bet it would be just as informative/enlightening to a degree...but for many of us who religion is simply not in the forefront of our lives, beyond being interested in others and/or historical interest to some degree......why?
i personally have not seen how 'everyone is down on Jesus'...i find most, even if they are not religious, or not christian, at least see him as a good man, a spiritual man, a man who worked for good in the world, etc. point is, if it's not one's faith, what difference does it make? we all have different beliefs, points of view....to me, as long as people are respectful/tolerant or mine or anyone else's beliefs...i'm cool with it. and yea, obviously, we have a LONG way to go on that one.
besides, i don't blame religion for evil...i blame the twisted minds who use religion, or anything really, as a handy *excuse* for their own agendas of evil.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Did you know the Pharisees wrote the Oral Talmud?
The Oral Talmud was the kind of like the New Testament for Jews. Some 200 years later or something a Rabbi wrote it down. Jewish people believe Jesus Christ was a blasphemer, not the true Messiah. Christ said they were Hipocrites. He said the Jewish people were no longer in gods favor and would be driven from the Holy Land. They would only be allowed to return peacefully when they learned their ways were not god's will but the will of the Pharisees. This is what Jewish Christians believe. The Pharisees claimed to have spoken to God and heard the voice of God, around the same period when Moses apparently spoke to God. The Jewish also refer to the Old Testament as the Torah.
Everyone has different beliefs, some will say I am wrong I'm sure. I don't really care, because I'm an Atheist. A lot of what I've read is just to understand other people.
not EVERYONE is down on Jesus.
I guess I did generalize their abit, whatev. Sorry
Ahnimus, its nice to read posts that are knowlegde based like yours and not just opinions, I dont care that you are atheist.
Opinions on topics like this bore me to hell, I need logic!
you want LOGIC...on the topic of RELIGION? ok.
considering that it is 'faith-based'...i really don't see logic entering into it. besides the fact, unless you lived during the time of Jesus or Mohammed, Buddha, etc, so much is interpreted/passed down by man...so yea, seems a lot of that is based on opinions, not logic. so yea, i guess i don't get what you even want for discussion then? to me, religion is all about personal beliefs and opinions...and honestly, logic has nothing to do with it. you believe, or don't believe, as you choose.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
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Ok, I agree witha lot of what you said, and as I said...it was foretold that people would use religion for financial gain and power- BUT-
1. FACT- A large portion of the Greek Scrips. are dedicated to the Apostle Pauls travels, teaching people to set up Christian congregations.
Now, to follow a line of logic that tells me that if you claim to believe the bible and be Christian then you should "not forsake the gathering of yourselves together". WHY THE HELL would God devote 1/4 of the Bible showing us how to congregate if he didnt care how we worshiped him? Makes no sense.
yes, the mocked him because they were jealous of Him and His power. they didn't like Him claiming to be the Son Of God. He was changing the people and gathering a following, they were fearful they would fall OUT of power. of course He had to see people at "heart level" because EVERYTHING was created through Him so he came to save EVERYONE, not just the people who followed the law and had better ways of making a living.
Logic and Faith can cohabitate quite nicely together.
And the bible is the most logical book Ive ever read.
Logic can be very simple D2D, truth IS simple.
For instance- the 2cnd greatest commandment is -"Love your neighbor as yourself" Think about it, if every one in the world treated everyone else as they want to be treated it would eliminate 99.99 percent of all the worlds problems.
"Love your neighbor as yourself" - Thats the most logical thing ever written...ponder on it then show me something more logical than that.
yeah i read the bible.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
And here is the problem that I... personally... have with it...
It was written by Man.
It was in the hands of the Church for a long, long time.
Gutenberg's printing press allowed for its mass production, allowing the common people to have their own copies... but Gutenberg's Bible was 1455. And it was expensive, so only rich people could buy them. It wouldn't be until the 1500s that the Bible makes its way into commoner's homes.
Prior to that, the Bible remained in the custody of the Church. Monks hand copied them.
And who decided when the Bible was a complete work? Who decided which books were included and which ones omitted? And were the books included in their entireties... or were they edited to keep certain things from the public at large? Maybe the parts that appear in the Bible are true, but are we getting the whole picture?
Today... some guy in a robe reads a passage and explains to me what it means... well, I've got questions. Mainly, how does he know that's what it means? It is his interpretation of the passage... how do I know it is actually what it is supposed to mean? Because of his authority in the Church? It's like us trying to interpret Pearl Jam songs... unless Ed himself tells us what he meant or what the lines are about... it is left to our own interpretation. My interpretation of 'Yellow Ledbetter' is not the definative truth. My interpretation does not apply to anyone but me.
I question the Church because it is basically a governing body run by Man.
I don't trust Man to tell me the truth... the absolute truth. He will tell me his relative truth, but not the absolute truth. He tells me that his relative truth is called 'Faith' and that I just supposed to shut up and accept it.
...
And I don't think people are down on Jesus Christ... if anything, we disrespect Him by disobeying Him.
Although... I have to say that I stand in awe of the was the Amish have handled this tragedy in their community and we should ALL take a page from their book. THAT IS the teaching of Christ. Not justice tempered with anger and revenge... but, forgiveness and acceptance. Not exclusion, but inclusion. Maybe they got it right and te rest of us are the ones left out in the cold.
...
Anyway... I don't need religion or church doctrine to talk to God for me. And all I can do is read what the Bible says Jesus said and go with that.
But, just because I feel this way, I don't expect everyone else to. You have your own row to hoe. If you find comfort and faith and hope in your religion and your church, that is the path you should take. I believe that faith is personal and that you should concern yourself with your own journey. When you achieve the same status as Jesus... then, come see me and I will follow. Until then... have a safe trip... but, I'm taking this other road.
Hail, Hail!!!
amen
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My favourite piece of logic is "To know that we know what we know and to know that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." Copernicus.
ditto
And yes, I have read the bible, I have read the apocryphal gospels as well Still... a story written by man, the way man saw it at the time, with his emotions and feelings, then edited by the church who chose what they wished to include in the compilation. These are facts.
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I see the bible as literature. I wouldn't take it literally though. I like Jesus. He was a revolutionary and was always meeting people at wells. I think the revolutionary aspect of him has been widely overlooked.
Due to my terrible education regarding other religions besides the catholic one I was raised with, I was shocked to see that the old testament is read in synagogues, plus that they recite psalm 23.
BTW that's one of the reasons why we agnostics/atheists generally think of your traditional christian as a giant hypocrite (referring to the original post).
Tis a good book if you use it right.
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Oh my, they dropped the leash.
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Other facts:
Archaeological evidence supporting much of what is written in the Bible.
Non-Christian historical writing supporting much of the Old Testament writings.
The ancient texts were not "edited." Yes, they were chosen to be part of the canon, but it's not as if it was a crapshoot with the council in blindfolds picking out scrolls to be included. Face it--the apocryphal "gospels" were not canonized for a reason. You don't include something you can't verify in a book you intend to use as Scripture.
Reminds me of the world famous beat poet, Donald "Muddafuggin logic" Rumsfeld. He's a Christian, too:
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.
It turned out that his true philosophy was, "What we don't know, we'll make up, and who cares about the consequences." Sounds much like attempts to explain the unknown, through logic.
Back to the main thread point, though. I recommend the writings of St Anselm, to people who want to prove faith in God's existence, through logic, given difficulties in proving God's existence (the unknown), through logic. His argument can be disputed, but it's worth reading.
Have I read the Bible? Parts of it, but not the entire thing.
That doesn't prove the all important matter of the existence of God, though.
Not necessarily. Many works of fiction are set in real-life locations, and have highly accurate historical, geographical and topographical detail. They serve as useful historical documents in many respects, just as many primary source, historical documents can, conversely, be read as constructed narratives, or linguistic constructions of truth (the same way that some realist fiction or government spin/misinformation works).
Having said that, I have read them both. I've read the texts of many religions. The only truth in any of them is that God is not there, and you will not find Him hiding in a book.
There are also two sides to every story. Somewhere in the middle is where the truth is...that truth is in the soul of every living thing.
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Ive heard that some Jewish people only read the Pentateuch, is that true?
Cosmo, I agree with most of what you said, and thabks for the lesson on Gutenburg, I didnt know some of the things you mentioned.
But- Im not a hypocrite if I share my faith with others. If one believes in Christ the they realize that we are commissioned to talk to others about what we know. Part of his teachings was to show the apostles how to Minister to people who were searching.
I respect all faiths and have studied most of them, but I only talk to people who want to know more about the teachings of the Man. On the flip side, I always ask Muslims and Jews that I meet about their faith, it fascinates me.
And yes, the Amish taught us all a lessson this week...what a beautiful people they are, what dignity in the face of tradgedy.
Um, thats mostly true. As a practice of reading the Torah (which is done as part of services every week) we read from the Torah which is the Pentateuch. It is also what is generally studied and reffered too. However, there are some scholars and students who read other versions as a frame of comparison, but in general the Pentateuch is what is read.
However, when you say Pentateuch, that is only referring to the Torah, or the 5 Books of Moses. Jews also read Prophets and Writings.
Sorry if that's already been said.