What, did you miss the other 974 threads about this?
search feature is over rated. head over to the porch. there are 3 "play the south" threads. its good to strike up fresh conversations about a topic. this is the first abortion discussion thread i have seen. although i admit i only "invaded" MVT section about a month ago. maybe longer, feels like years. as you know, i'm usually 10 against 1 in most threads. your (you're for ashminus) my favorite though :hugs:
search feature is over rated. head over to the porch. there are 3 "play the south" threads. its good to strike up fresh conversations about a topic. this is the first abortion discussion thread i have seen. although i admit i only "invaded" MVT section about a month ago. maybe longer, feels like years. as you know, i'm usually 10 against 1 in most threads. your (you're for ashminus) my favorite though :hugs:
Are you seriously telling me that there hasn't been an abortion thread here in A MONTH?!!?!
**thud**
Ok, sorry, gotta dust myself off here ....
That's really hard to believe. I don't think that's ever happened before! Usually you can find three or four of them in the first two or three pages. We've had some real doozies over the years, but it seems to me the best ones get started regarding a particular story, or in response to a more carefully worded opinion. An offhanded statement like the one that started this thread doesn't usually generate much more than smart-ass remarks. We've been over this too many times, you've got to give us a little something to chew on.
:hugs: to you too
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Are you seriously telling me that there hasn't been an abortion thread here in A MONTH?!!?!
**thud**
Ok, sorry, gotta dust myself off here ....
That's really hard to believe. I don't think that's ever happened before! Usually you can find three or four of them in the first two or three pages. We've had some real doozies over the years, but it seems to me the best ones get started regarding a particular story, or in response to a more carefully worded opinion. An offhanded statement like the one that started this thread doesn't usually generate much more than smart-ass remarks. We've been over this too many times, you've got to give us a little something to chew on.
:hugs: to you too
nope, havent seen one. I was actually thinking of starting a "abortion discussion" thread because I wanted to share my opinon on the matter as well as see what others think. maybe tonight i'll share, but not tonight, just got back from a long business trip. stay tuned. maybe i'll be on tomorrow. um chances are pretty good fo that.
nope, havent seen one. I was actually thinking of starting a "abortion discussion" thread because I wanted to share my opinon on the matter as well as see what others think. maybe tonight i'll share, but not tonight, just got back from a long business trip. stay tuned. maybe i'll be on tomorrow. um chances are pretty good fo that.
So let's see if we can rise above the name-calling and have a decent discussion about this.
I was intrigued by the original question, although I was tempted to turn it around. While it is true that people who support abortion rights often oppose the death penalty, the opposite is also true -- people who oppose abortion rights also support the death penalty.
I've seen some anti-abortion posters hung about recently, saying that October is "Respect Life Month." I emailed the organization and asked when they would be hanging flyers opposing the death penalty. The head of the organization wrote me back and told me that while she opposed the death penalty, she didn't think she could find the "manpower" to put together anti-death penalty events.
Turns out that she was working with the Catholic Church -- the same folks who threatened to withhold sacraments from politicians who supported abortion rights. But didn't make similar threats against politicians who supported the death penalty or the Iraq War -- both of which the Vatican opposes. (I'm a Recovering Catholic. I miss the Church I grew up in -- staffed by Franciscans, who are the hippies of the Catholic priesthood. It was easy to be Catholic hanging around with them.)
Anyway, abortion and the death penalty (and the war, I guess) are a peculiar ideological package. And I haven't thought very hard about why, but it's starting to make me wonder . . .
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
So let's see if we can rise above the name-calling and have a decent discussion about this.
I was intrigued by the original question, although I was tempted to turn it around. While it is true that people who support abortion rights often oppose the death penalty, the opposite is also true -- people who oppose abortion rights also support the death penalty.
I've seen some anti-abortion posters hung about recently, saying that October is "Respect Life Month." I emailed the organization and asked when they would be hanging flyers opposing the death penalty. The head of the organization wrote me back and told me that while she opposed the death penalty, she didn't think she could find the "manpower" to put together anti-death penalty events.
Turns out that she was working with the Catholic Church -- the same folks who threatened to withhold sacraments from politicians who supported abortion rights. But didn't make similar threats against politicians who supported the death penalty or the Iraq War -- both of which the Vatican opposes. (I'm a Recovering Catholic. I miss the Church I grew up in -- staffed by Franciscans, who are the hippies of the Catholic priesthood. It was easy to be Catholic hanging around with them.)
Anyway, abortion and the death penalty (and the war, I guess) are a peculiar ideological package. And I haven't thought very hard about why, but it's starting to make me wonder . . .
take this for what you will:
the rationalization between abortion and the death penalty is simple, if you understand where the other side is coming from.
death penalty is seen as punishment or consequence for the actions of a person who committed an act with full knowledge of its right and wrong. in other words, the death penalty is for the guilty. people who had a choice in life and did the wrong thing.
those same people who are for the death penalty are against abortion because the life being taken is considered to be innocent. it didn't choose to be conceived, and has not actually done anything to warrant the ending of its life. just the same as the victim of a murder, who had his or her life ended by the choice or actions of another.
those same people feel that those who rationalize that abortion is ok and the death penalty is wrong are basically arguing that the post-conception life is not in fact a life until it walks and talks and breathes and can completely take care of itself. (which, to me, is about 25 for most people ) but, once born, the post-conception life is to be valued no matter what the circumstances.
human life isn't contingent on emotion or the ability to speak
nor on the ability to live on its own, the "viability" argument. even after birth, a baby cannot "live on its own". by the definition applied to render a fetus a non-baby, the same could realitically be said for most humans under the age of about 10 or 12.....or 20 in many cases
touchy subject. For me personally, there is a small amount of grey area on abortion. The only time I see it as "acceptable" is rape. Whether it is a stranger or family member, the person did not ask for the baby. Other than that people use abortion as last minute birth control. I have the misfortune of knowing a girl through a friend of a friend of a friend who has had 6 abortions. 6 fucking abortions. Makes me sick to my stomach.
IMO it all has to do with consequences...you fucked up and now dont want to have a baby so you decide to have an abortion...its pretty much a cure-all to something there shouldnt be a cure- all too. Its illogical.
well then, how is abortion morally unethical but the death penalty is not?
You spin me right round baby right round
Like a record baby, right round round round
Very good. You can have a gold star for that.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
People need to mind their own business when it comes to such personal issues as abortion. Absolutely NO ONE has (or will ever have) the right to tell a woman what to do with HER own body. If abortion is outlawed, expect to see a big spike in crime, people on welfare, child abuse cases, etc in the decades to come as those millions of unwanted, abused and negleted children grow up.
I personally will always find a dead fetus far less tragic than an abused, unwanted, unloved, neglected child.
i have a limited amount of self control. i never said i wasn't part of the problem. it's hard not to give in, especially when you think you are being smart. bc and condoms,...
there are obviously many variables leading up to the choices people make. but i know that the majority of the decisions are probably ones like mine(hypothetically), preventable.
you're a real hooker. im gonna slap you in public.
~Ron Burgundy
don't get pregnant in the first place. or take the heat if you do. you knew going in there were risks. there are no foolproof birth control methods.
and it's not "her" body, it's the body of a seperate being, fully developed or not...
damn, i can't believe i'm in another one of these....these discussions never lead anywhere. nobody is truly looking to understand the other side.
I'm with this guy. People talk about CHOICE. You make the CHOICE when you willfully allow the peg to fit into the hole. There isn't a woman on this planet that is able to conceive that doesn't understand the potential responsibility (pregnancy) ahead of her.
It's that simple. like this guy said, no birth control method is 100% guaranteed. You take a risk when you have sex. If you get pregnant, there should be no OOPS! Abortion! You made a mistake, but should have understood the consequences of your actions.
No one gives you your money back if you lose it in the stock market. If you understood the risks and potential negative consequences beforehand, you might reconsider before you do certain things.
Do whatever else you want with YOUR body. Don't hurt the living being inside. That's someone else.
Back to the original post, it's kind of odd how one is legal, and the other isn't. I'm against both myself. Here's what's even worse about it:
Death Penalty: Taking the life of someone who probably deserves it. This isn't 100% accepted in our country. Every state has different laws on it.
Abortion: Taking the life of someone who has never done ANYTHING wrong. And it's legal everywhere in this country.
All in all, take responsibility before anything you do.
I don't think abortions should be banned because of situations like rape and incest. I do, however, think there should be better laws on it, like limiting the number a woman can get. Like for the person who knew a person who knew a person who had SIX(!!!!!) that shit should NOT be legal.
I don't think abortions should be banned because of situations like rape and incest. I do, however, think there should be better laws on it, like limiting the number a woman can get. Like for the person who knew a person who knew a person who had SIX(!!!!!) that shit should NOT be legal.
finding a happy medium is pretty tough when this country is, in majority, far left or far right. though, i do agree mostly.
you're a real hooker. im gonna slap you in public.
~Ron Burgundy
I do, however, think there should be better laws on it, like limiting the number a woman can get. Like for the person who knew a person who knew a person who had SIX(!!!!!) that shit should NOT be legal.
While I agree that this is totally not good. My question is ... would we (society) be better off if this very messed up woman have had 6 unwanted children? At the very least they would have to live thier lives with an incredible irresponsible mother. I don't even want to think about the worst.
finding a happy medium is pretty tough when this country is, in majority, far left or far right. though, i do agree mostly.
I don't think the country is so far apart - the fact that the power is so far right, has the country leaning as far away as they can to keep us from tipping over.
What does it matter what a mother does to her unborn child? As long as it is done in the first trimester, what does it matter? We know for a fact, it won't feel it, it does not have a fully developed central nervous system. What does it matter to you or anyone else? It is still a fetus, NOT a person. It has not felt, it has not lived. It has no family, it has no friends, it's made no difference in peoples' lives. What does it matter to you or anyone other than the mother? Negatively, the child could grow up alone, abandoned, malnourished and unloved. This child could grow up in a harsh world. It could contribute to the HUGE HUGE problem of overpopulation and burden on our society and the environment. The last thing this world needs is for people to start crusading for the potential of more. Where does your moral superiority get you when our society is crumbling and environment collapsing?
What does it matter to YOU? Are you really a moral crusader? Are you perfect? Do you fight for the lives of every living creature, even if they're not technically in this world yet? Do you think you will be 'saved' for fighting the pro-life fight? What does it matter to YOU?
Once you are in this world, and an independent citizen with RIGHTS in this society, then the argument of right to life occurs when you have done something considered 'wrong'. That is a seperate argument. The dependent fetus, created within a woman and part of said woman is a completely different scenario.
So, what does it matter to you I ask?
24 years old, mid-life crisis
nowadays hits you when you're young
What does it matter what a mother does to her unborn child? As long as it is done in the first trimester, what does it matter? We know for a fact, it won't feel it, it does not have a fully developed central nervous system. What does it matter to you or anyone else? It is still a fetus, NOT a person. It has not felt, it has not lived. It has no family, it has no friends, it's made no difference in peoples' lives. What does it matter to you or anyone other than the mother? Negatively, the child could grow up alone, abandoned, malnourished and unloved. This child could grow up in a harsh world. It could contribute to the HUGE HUGE problem of overpopulation and burden on our society and the environment. The last thing this world needs is for people to start crusading for the potential of more. Where does your moral superiority get you when our society is crumbling and environment collapsing?
What does it matter to YOU? Are you really a moral crusader? Are you perfect? Do you fight for the lives of every living creature, even if they're not technically in this world yet? Do you think you will be 'saved' for fighting the pro-life fight? What does it matter to YOU?
Once you are in this world, and an independent citizen with RIGHTS in this society, then the argument of right to life occurs when you have done something considered 'wrong'. That is a seperate argument. The dependent fetus, created within a woman and part of said woman is a completely different scenario.
So, what does it matter to you I ask?
People are still going to debate what is a human life and what isn't.
Comments
search feature is over rated. head over to the porch. there are 3 "play the south" threads. its good to strike up fresh conversations about a topic. this is the first abortion discussion thread i have seen. although i admit i only "invaded" MVT section about a month ago. maybe longer, feels like years. as you know, i'm usually 10 against 1 in most threads. your (you're for ashminus) my favorite though
**thud**
Ok, sorry, gotta dust myself off here ....
That's really hard to believe. I don't think that's ever happened before! Usually you can find three or four of them in the first two or three pages. We've had some real doozies over the years, but it seems to me the best ones get started regarding a particular story, or in response to a more carefully worded opinion. An offhanded statement like the one that started this thread doesn't usually generate much more than smart-ass remarks. We've been over this too many times, you've got to give us a little something to chew on.
:hugs: to you too
don't get pregnant in the first place. or take the heat if you do. you knew going in there were risks. there are no foolproof birth control methods.
and it's not "her" body, it's the body of a seperate being, fully developed or not...
damn, i can't believe i'm in another one of these....these discussions never lead anywhere. nobody is truly looking to understand the other side.
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
nope, havent seen one. I was actually thinking of starting a "abortion discussion" thread because I wanted to share my opinon on the matter as well as see what others think. maybe tonight i'll share, but not tonight, just got back from a long business trip. stay tuned. maybe i'll be on tomorrow. um chances are pretty good fo that.
thats what i was worried about.
I definately see both sides but too lazy to get into right now
well, that, and the name calling and shit talking....this topic is famous for that. very emotional topics like this and religion are.....
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
But the seperate being is growing inside of her body.
I was intrigued by the original question, although I was tempted to turn it around. While it is true that people who support abortion rights often oppose the death penalty, the opposite is also true -- people who oppose abortion rights also support the death penalty.
I've seen some anti-abortion posters hung about recently, saying that October is "Respect Life Month." I emailed the organization and asked when they would be hanging flyers opposing the death penalty. The head of the organization wrote me back and told me that while she opposed the death penalty, she didn't think she could find the "manpower" to put together anti-death penalty events.
Turns out that she was working with the Catholic Church -- the same folks who threatened to withhold sacraments from politicians who supported abortion rights. But didn't make similar threats against politicians who supported the death penalty or the Iraq War -- both of which the Vatican opposes. (I'm a Recovering Catholic. I miss the Church I grew up in -- staffed by Franciscans, who are the hippies of the Catholic priesthood. It was easy to be Catholic hanging around with them.)
Anyway, abortion and the death penalty (and the war, I guess) are a peculiar ideological package. And I haven't thought very hard about why, but it's starting to make me wonder . . .
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
well, it is...
human life isn't contingent on emotion or the ability to speak
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
take this for what you will:
the rationalization between abortion and the death penalty is simple, if you understand where the other side is coming from.
death penalty is seen as punishment or consequence for the actions of a person who committed an act with full knowledge of its right and wrong. in other words, the death penalty is for the guilty. people who had a choice in life and did the wrong thing.
those same people who are for the death penalty are against abortion because the life being taken is considered to be innocent. it didn't choose to be conceived, and has not actually done anything to warrant the ending of its life. just the same as the victim of a murder, who had his or her life ended by the choice or actions of another.
those same people feel that those who rationalize that abortion is ok and the death penalty is wrong are basically arguing that the post-conception life is not in fact a life until it walks and talks and breathes and can completely take care of itself. (which, to me, is about 25 for most people
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
nor on the ability to live on its own, the "viability" argument. even after birth, a baby cannot "live on its own". by the definition applied to render a fetus a non-baby, the same could realitically be said for most humans under the age of about 10 or 12.....or 20 in many cases
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
I thought this was common knowledge.
neither are morally ethical.. though many feel one or both are socially necessary.
well then, how is abortion morally unethical but the death penalty is not?
Like a record baby, right round round round
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Very good. You can have a gold star for that.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
I personally will always find a dead fetus far less tragic than an abused, unwanted, unloved, neglected child.
~Ron Burgundy
You arent getting any are you?
i have a limited amount of self control. i never said i wasn't part of the problem. it's hard not to give in, especially when you think you are being smart. bc and condoms,...
there are obviously many variables leading up to the choices people make. but i know that the majority of the decisions are probably ones like mine(hypothetically), preventable.
~Ron Burgundy
I'm with this guy. People talk about CHOICE. You make the CHOICE when you willfully allow the peg to fit into the hole. There isn't a woman on this planet that is able to conceive that doesn't understand the potential responsibility (pregnancy) ahead of her.
It's that simple. like this guy said, no birth control method is 100% guaranteed. You take a risk when you have sex. If you get pregnant, there should be no OOPS! Abortion! You made a mistake, but should have understood the consequences of your actions.
No one gives you your money back if you lose it in the stock market. If you understood the risks and potential negative consequences beforehand, you might reconsider before you do certain things.
Do whatever else you want with YOUR body. Don't hurt the living being inside. That's someone else.
Back to the original post, it's kind of odd how one is legal, and the other isn't. I'm against both myself. Here's what's even worse about it:
Death Penalty: Taking the life of someone who probably deserves it. This isn't 100% accepted in our country. Every state has different laws on it.
Abortion: Taking the life of someone who has never done ANYTHING wrong. And it's legal everywhere in this country.
All in all, take responsibility before anything you do.
finding a happy medium is pretty tough when this country is, in majority, far left or far right. though, i do agree mostly.
~Ron Burgundy
I've noticed that too. It seems like it's "My way or nothing at all".
We all gotta be willing to compromise. (Did I spell that right?)
I don't think the country is so far apart - the fact that the power is so far right, has the country leaning as far away as they can to keep us from tipping over.
What does it matter what a mother does to her unborn child? As long as it is done in the first trimester, what does it matter? We know for a fact, it won't feel it, it does not have a fully developed central nervous system. What does it matter to you or anyone else? It is still a fetus, NOT a person. It has not felt, it has not lived. It has no family, it has no friends, it's made no difference in peoples' lives. What does it matter to you or anyone other than the mother? Negatively, the child could grow up alone, abandoned, malnourished and unloved. This child could grow up in a harsh world. It could contribute to the HUGE HUGE problem of overpopulation and burden on our society and the environment. The last thing this world needs is for people to start crusading for the potential of more. Where does your moral superiority get you when our society is crumbling and environment collapsing?
What does it matter to YOU? Are you really a moral crusader? Are you perfect? Do you fight for the lives of every living creature, even if they're not technically in this world yet? Do you think you will be 'saved' for fighting the pro-life fight? What does it matter to YOU?
Once you are in this world, and an independent citizen with RIGHTS in this society, then the argument of right to life occurs when you have done something considered 'wrong'. That is a seperate argument. The dependent fetus, created within a woman and part of said woman is a completely different scenario.
So, what does it matter to you I ask?
nowadays hits you when you're young
People are still going to debate what is a human life and what isn't.