Now, this is not me saying that 9/11 was done so Bush could invade Iraq. It's in response to LGT's statement saying wmd's were reason enough. Before 9/11, they weren't.
The first war in Iraq was legitimized with Iraq invading Kuweit, I think.
There was no mention of a direct threat to the US even...
So before 911, the same country, could be led by essentially the same leadership into a similiar campaign, WITHOUT any claim of a direct threat to the US and without the previous events of 911...
so a lot less than WMD was reason enough to start/join a war...and don't look back from now and say this war wasn't as bad as this one...for people at that time it couldn't have been obvious how the war will end...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I will pose as the devil's advocate this time;)
and tell you that only the climate generated after 911 made it possible to mislead people into war against Iraq with the claim of WMDs...
m.
And I would totally agree with that.
The point is that you can manipulate events and people's minds opportunistically taking advantage of certain situations to suit your own agenda. However, it does not necessarily imply a causal link between the two.
For instance - to go back to the favourite Nazi topic - the Nazi party exploited the aftermath of WW1 and Versailles Treaty to get a stronghold in post-Weimar Germany and win the election. But this does not mean they had any involvement with either of those events (they did not sit at the peace treaty negotiations, they did not exist during WW1 although, of course, Hitler, was a soldier and was deeply affected by it and the reparations issue.)
And yes, 9/11 definitely played into the neo-con agenda but the causal link between Iraq and the 9/11 terrorists has not been established. (EDIT: neither a causal link between 9/11 and the US government of course. The 9/11 conspiracy theory is just conjectures with unsubstantiated evidence, so far.)
What I am trying to say:
- you can exploit events to your advantage but it does not follow you were necessarily behind it;
- there are different ways to pursue your own agenda objectives, more often than not, more insidious and less blatant than organising a complex plot such as 9/11.
and this essentially is one (small) reason why the attacks happened. because of the ignorance of the american leaders to actually comprehend what is possible even if you are not the most powerful country in the world.
yet, proponents of an inside job CONTINUE to claim the US cannot be attacked from OUTSIDE forces (they often also make the claim that Pearl Harbor only could happen because the US let it happen KNOWINGLY)
this is claiming that the US is unvulnerable on its homesoil!
and thus, overblowing the influence and power of the US government in the world (and at home).
diverting attention from complex interdependecies between countries, that create wealth, and yes: also conflict and death...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
the wmd's thing and this 9/11 conspiracy nonsense is apples and oranges bro. . .if you don't want to believe the government fine, its good to have a healthy mistrust of them but how bout believing the people who were there and lived through and still live through this
Okay, what about the Janitor guy (I think his name was William Rodriguez or something like that) who was actually in the building when this stuff happened. He has some alternate things to say when compared to the real story and I happen to believe him.
Okay, what about the Janitor guy (I think his name was William Rodriguez or something like that) who was actually in the building when this stuff happened. He has some alternate things to say when compared to the real story and I happen to believe him.
His complaints and depictions of what happened have been very inconsistent.
His complaints and depictions of what happened have been very inconsistent.
also he has a vested interest in claiming spectacular things, cause that is what many people want to hear(=buy).
Just compare the sales rates of a scolarly archaeology book on egypt, and one that claims aliens built the pyramides...
I am not downplaying his actual merits on the day of the attacks...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Enough with this freefall bullshit because that is all it is. Here is a link that puts some of your physics into use http://debunking911.com/freefall.htm
You said this was textbook demolition. AGAIN, go look at how widespread the debris was then look at an actual demolition. Not even close to the same. Another arguement of yours proved wrong and you just ignore that and keep on going.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
Pensacola '94 New Orleans '95 Birmingham '98 New Orleans '00 New Orleans '03 Tampa '08 New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest Fenway Park '18 St. Louis '22
also he has a vested interest in claiming spectacular things, cause that is what many people want to hear(=buy).
Just compare the sales rates of a scolarly archaeology book on egypt, and one that claims aliens built the pyramides...
m.
WEll yes, he is getting paid to say the official story isnt true. Funny though, the few days after Sept 11th when he wasnt getting paid and was just being interviewed by local and national media, his accounts of what happened were remarkebly consistent with the "official" story.
There is a market for this stuff and people are making money off of these theories. It has become a business.
Enough with this freefall bullshit because that is all it is.
You said this was textbook demolition. AGAIN, go look at how widespread the debris was then look at an actual demolition. Not even close to the same. Another arguement of yours proved wrong and you just ignore that and keep on going.
to play the devil's advocat once again...;)
you just follow the path of least resistance!
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
you just know everything, don't you...
I think this thread alone shows pretty clearly that no normal productive debate is possible with you...
did you hear Chomsky: diverting people from serious issues!!! real problems!!! like you know...solving actual crisis without always blaming the man for it...
but why do I post even...the insults from you will be inevitable...
and I'm not involved in politics, so I don't play any card
m.
I don;t know everything b ut I do know common sense.
He has his reputation at stake like everyone else involved.
obviously.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I don;t know everything b ut I do know common sense.
He has his reputation at stake like everyone else involved.
obviously.
did you hear that he said he was pretty much alone on the ("far") left with his opinion...
isn't that where his reputation should be strongest?
just a thought...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Steel buildings don't collapse like a deck of cards.
never has happened before. Never will happen again unless it is demolished.
Nobody from the official story can explain the collapse unless they make the simulations ridiculous, or factor in eliminating the vertical support columns all at the same time, and everywhere on each floor.
Here's a simple example for the people still stuck on the house of cards all fall down ideology:
Take a school bus. Stand it on it's end up in the air. Now take slice of say a 5 foot section of bus. Hover it directly over the entire school bus by say 20 feet and drop it.
It isn't going to continually plow down through the entire bus all the way to the ground. Not even close. Pls understand that. It's the same thing with the buildings.
No deck of cards....no jenga.phenomenon..no pancake or accordion style collapse. That's all official story fabrication to screw with your heads...
The official story has no real idea how th buildings collapsed.
but it happened three times in a row!
unbelievable.
yes it is.,
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
did you hear that he said he was pretty much alone on the ("far") left with his opinion...
isn't that where his reputation should be strongest?
just a thought...
m.
Anyone that comes out on 9/11 is ridiculed forever as a crazy person (according to a half baked investigation....and I hesitate to actually call it an investigation).
He doesn't want to put himself through it.
It's a very reasonable explanation.....and for a lot of people...old and young alike the world around.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Anyone that comes out on 9/11 is ridiculed forever as a crazy person (according to a half baked investigation....and I hesitate to actually call it an investigation).
He doesn't want to put himself through it.
It's a very reasonable explanation.....and for a lot of people...old and young alike the world around.
Anyone that comes out on 9/11 is ridiculed forever as a crazy person (according to a half baked investigation....and I hesitate to actually call it an investigation).
He doesn't want to put himself through it.
It's a very reasonable explanation.....and for a lot of people...old and young alike the world around.
are you kidding? i dont think Chomsky has ever shyed (shied?) away from ridicule or being called a crazy person.
Steel buildings don't collapse like a deck of cards.
never has happened before. Never will happen again unless it is demolished.
Nobody from the official story can explain the collapse unless they make the simulations ridiculous, or factor in eliminating the vertical support columns all at the same time, and everywhere on each floor.
Here's a simple example for the people still stuck on the house of cards all fall down ideology:
Take a school bus. Stand it on it's end up in the air. Now take slice of say a 5 foot section of bus. Hover it directly over the entire school bus by say 20 feet and drop it.
It isn't going to continually plow down through the entire bus all the way to the ground. Not even close. Pls understand that. It's the same thing with the buildings.
No deck of cards....no jenga.phenomenon..no pancake or accordion style collapse. That's all official story fabrication to screw with your heads...
The official story has no real idea how th buildings collapsed.
but it happened three times in a row!
unbelievable.
yes it is.,
first: it also has never happened before that a passenger plane flew into one of the biggest skyscrapers in the world...
I am okay with what you say...I just want to point to one thing that came to my mind when reading your bus analogy...
a bus is "hollow" while the WTC had solid and heavy floors inside...so when the first (i don't know how many) floors start falling down they crash on the next floors with an immense power...and everytime a new floor is hit it gets heavier, while the foundation becomes smaller...thus a huge dynamic is started that can tear a building down in that fashion...
m.
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
are you kidding? i dont think Chomsky has ever shyed (shied?) away from ridicule or being called a crazy person.
Exactly. Like Chomsky has ever bit his tongue or held back his opinions of the US government, no matter how controversial or disliked his opinions may be.
first: it also has never happened before that a passenger plane flew into one of the biggest skyscrapers in the world...
m.
forget it. he's an architecture expert who knows exactly how buildings will fall down. and with the large pool of data concerning gigantic skyscrapers being hit by large planes, how could you disagree with him?
first: it also has never happened before that a passenger plane flew into one of the biggest skyscrapers in the world...
I am okay with what you say...I just want to point to one thing that came to my mind when reading your bus analogy...
a bus is "hollow" while the WTC had solid and heavy floors inside...so when the first (i don't know how many) floors start falling down they crash on the next floors with an immense power...and everytime a new floor is hit it gets heavier, while the foundation becomes smaller...thus a huge dynamic is started that can tear a building down in that fashion...
m.
The bus also does not have immense vertical steel support columns running up it's center everywhere like steel skyscrapers do. This would make the bus even stronger.
The steel columns increase in size and strength as you go down the buildings. There's no picking up of momentum. it would all slow down and come to stop. The tops of these buildings should have either moved for a bit then stopped altogether or fell off the tops of the buildings.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
forget it. he's an architecture expert who knows exactly how buildings will fall down. and with the large pool of data concerning gigantic skyscrapers being hit by large planes, how could you disagree with him?
The entire building wasn't hit by a plane. The damage was isolated.
lot of good strong building you're forgetting about.
It's like saying if you jump off a picnic table your head will plow through your entire body if you have a weak vertebrae...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Doubts about WMDs were already voiced in the lead-up towards the war.
France, for instance, Hans Blix, not to mention David Kelly in Britain.
Indeed I'd even say that the WMDs claim was disbelieved CREDIBLY during those days by several people.
Of course, this does not imply you should take for granted everything a government says. Questioning and skepticism are very healthy.
It does make one think - or at least me! - why would a government resort to organise such a complex covert operation against his own people (innocent civilians) when an unfounded claim about WMDs proved quite enough to start a war.
Anyway, just wanted to point out that it was factually inaccurate to say that the truth, or rather the lie about WMDs came only years later. It was there already.
Yes I know it was there already I was one of them that believed none was there, what i meant was the administration admitted it publicly years later.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Exactly. Like Chomsky has ever bit his tongue or held back his opinions of the US government, no matter how controversial or disliked his opinions may be.
Chomsky clearly avoids 9/11 discussion like the plague. To the point he almost gets out of character.
Yet you would take his word over say...an architect?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Chomsky clearly avoids 9/11 discussion like the plague. To the point he almost gets out of character.
Yet you would take his word over say...an architect?
Of course not. Most architects and people qualified to know this stuff, dont agree with you though. And Chomsky avoids it because he doesnt believe it was an inside job.
Jumping off a picnic table isnt going to have the force or momentum of a large plane hitting a large building. Your are way over simplifing this.
The bottoms of the buildings had nothing to do with an airplane. They were designed to sway in hurricane type forces. They didn't even budge on 9/11 from the impacts.
The downward momentum and forces involved to keep plowing continuously through massive vertical steel support columns over and over again *at/extremely near free fall speed* all the way to the ground.....it's just no there..
In a hollywood FX movie maybe.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Comments
The first war in Iraq was legitimized with Iraq invading Kuweit, I think.
There was no mention of a direct threat to the US even...
So before 911, the same country, could be led by essentially the same leadership into a similiar campaign, WITHOUT any claim of a direct threat to the US and without the previous events of 911...
so a lot less than WMD was reason enough to start/join a war...and don't look back from now and say this war wasn't as bad as this one...for people at that time it couldn't have been obvious how the war will end...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
And I would totally agree with that.
The point is that you can manipulate events and people's minds opportunistically taking advantage of certain situations to suit your own agenda. However, it does not necessarily imply a causal link between the two.
For instance - to go back to the favourite Nazi topic
And yes, 9/11 definitely played into the neo-con agenda but the causal link between Iraq and the 9/11 terrorists has not been established. (EDIT: neither a causal link between 9/11 and the US government of course. The 9/11 conspiracy theory is just conjectures with unsubstantiated evidence, so far.)
What I am trying to say:
- you can exploit events to your advantage but it does not follow you were necessarily behind it;
- there are different ways to pursue your own agenda objectives, more often than not, more insidious and less blatant than organising a complex plot such as 9/11.
and this essentially is one (small) reason why the attacks happened. because of the ignorance of the american leaders to actually comprehend what is possible even if you are not the most powerful country in the world.
yet, proponents of an inside job CONTINUE to claim the US cannot be attacked from OUTSIDE forces (they often also make the claim that Pearl Harbor only could happen because the US let it happen KNOWINGLY)
this is claiming that the US is unvulnerable on its homesoil!
and thus, overblowing the influence and power of the US government in the world (and at home).
diverting attention from complex interdependecies between countries, that create wealth, and yes: also conflict and death...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Explain. How is he using politics and playing the 9/11 card?
Okay, what about the Janitor guy (I think his name was William Rodriguez or something like that) who was actually in the building when this stuff happened. He has some alternate things to say when compared to the real story and I happen to believe him.
His complaints and depictions of what happened have been very inconsistent.
also he has a vested interest in claiming spectacular things, cause that is what many people want to hear(=buy).
Just compare the sales rates of a scolarly archaeology book on egypt, and one that claims aliens built the pyramides...
I am not downplaying his actual merits on the day of the attacks...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Enough with this freefall bullshit because that is all it is. Here is a link that puts some of your physics into use http://debunking911.com/freefall.htm
You said this was textbook demolition. AGAIN, go look at how widespread the debris was then look at an actual demolition. Not even close to the same. Another arguement of yours proved wrong and you just ignore that and keep on going.
Pensacola '94
New Orleans '95
Birmingham '98
New Orleans '00
New Orleans '03
Tampa '08
New Orleans '10 - Jazzfest
New Orleans '16 - Jazzfest
Fenway Park '18
St. Louis '22
WEll yes, he is getting paid to say the official story isnt true. Funny though, the few days after Sept 11th when he wasnt getting paid and was just being interviewed by local and national media, his accounts of what happened were remarkebly consistent with the "official" story.
There is a market for this stuff and people are making money off of these theories. It has become a business.
to play the devil's advocat once again...;)
you just follow the path of least resistance!
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Motive isn't guilt.
nice summary:)
(just one more thing: if they tear down the building anyway...why fly those planes in? terrorists can also plant bombs, no?)
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I don;t know everything b ut I do know common sense.
He has his reputation at stake like everyone else involved.
obviously.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
did you hear that he said he was pretty much alone on the ("far") left with his opinion...
isn't that where his reputation should be strongest?
just a thought...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
never has happened before. Never will happen again unless it is demolished.
Nobody from the official story can explain the collapse unless they make the simulations ridiculous, or factor in eliminating the vertical support columns all at the same time, and everywhere on each floor.
Here's a simple example for the people still stuck on the house of cards all fall down ideology:
Take a school bus. Stand it on it's end up in the air. Now take slice of say a 5 foot section of bus. Hover it directly over the entire school bus by say 20 feet and drop it.
It isn't going to continually plow down through the entire bus all the way to the ground. Not even close. Pls understand that. It's the same thing with the buildings.
No deck of cards....no jenga.phenomenon..no pancake or accordion style collapse. That's all official story fabrication to screw with your heads...
The official story has no real idea how th buildings collapsed.
but it happened three times in a row!
unbelievable.
yes it is.,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Anyone that comes out on 9/11 is ridiculed forever as a crazy person (according to a half baked investigation....and I hesitate to actually call it an investigation).
He doesn't want to put himself through it.
It's a very reasonable explanation.....and for a lot of people...old and young alike the world around.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
So he is a liar?
are you kidding? i dont think Chomsky has ever shyed (shied?) away from ridicule or being called a crazy person.
first: it also has never happened before that a passenger plane flew into one of the biggest skyscrapers in the world...
I am okay with what you say...I just want to point to one thing that came to my mind when reading your bus analogy...
a bus is "hollow" while the WTC had solid and heavy floors inside...so when the first (i don't know how many) floors start falling down they crash on the next floors with an immense power...and everytime a new floor is hit it gets heavier, while the foundation becomes smaller...thus a huge dynamic is started that can tear a building down in that fashion...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Exactly. Like Chomsky has ever bit his tongue or held back his opinions of the US government, no matter how controversial or disliked his opinions may be.
The bus also does not have immense vertical steel support columns running up it's center everywhere like steel skyscrapers do. This would make the bus even stronger.
The steel columns increase in size and strength as you go down the buildings. There's no picking up of momentum. it would all slow down and come to stop. The tops of these buildings should have either moved for a bit then stopped altogether or fell off the tops of the buildings.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
The entire building wasn't hit by a plane. The damage was isolated.
lot of good strong building you're forgetting about.
It's like saying if you jump off a picnic table your head will plow through your entire body if you have a weak vertebrae...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Yes I know it was there already I was one of them that believed none was there, what i meant was the administration admitted it publicly years later.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Chomsky clearly avoids 9/11 discussion like the plague. To the point he almost gets out of character.
Yet you would take his word over say...an architect?
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Jumping off a picnic table isnt going to have the force or momentum of a large plane hitting a large building. Your are way over simplifing this.
so how MANY architects support the arguments of this one architect?
I give you that they could also try and be political...
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Of course not. Most architects and people qualified to know this stuff, dont agree with you though. And Chomsky avoids it because he doesnt believe it was an inside job.
http://web.archive.org/web/200407191802 ... +paper.pdf
m.
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
The bottoms of the buildings had nothing to do with an airplane. They were designed to sway in hurricane type forces. They didn't even budge on 9/11 from the impacts.
The downward momentum and forces involved to keep plowing continuously through massive vertical steel support columns over and over again *at/extremely near free fall speed* all the way to the ground.....it's just no there..
In a hollywood FX movie maybe.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")