What's it going to take before YOU decide to resist?

my2hands

Collin wrote:

I think you're wrong about this. A lot of Germans didn't know what truly went on in those camps, though they probably knew it wasn't pretty. But please do show me I'm wrong and present a piece of evidence which shows "they mostly cheered it on."

the evil of nazi germany was more then the holocaust... the militarization of their society and destruction of europe in pursuit of power and military dominance laid an entore continent to waste... and yes, most germans, or germany as a whole gleefuly cheered this on

they sure as hell didnt stop it


one of the things that gets lost whenever people talk about the nazis and hitler is the actual war and destruction. most focus on the holocaust, for good reason. but please dont forget the nazi war machine and the massive destruction it caused, with the german populations blessing

blackredyellow

my2hands wrote:

the evil of nazi germany was more then the holocaust... the militarization of their society and destruction of europe in pursuit of power and military dominance laid an entore continent to waste... and yes, most germans, or germany as a whole gleefuly cheered this on

they sure as hell didnt stop it


one of the things that gets lost whenever people talk about the nazis and hitler is the actual war and destruction. most focus on the holocaust, for good reason. but please dont forget the nazi war machine and the massive destruction it caused, with the german populations blessing

And what were they really supposed to do? By this point the Nazi party had all the power, strength, guns, and more importantly the will to do anything to protect that.

You really think that people would be just allowed to speak out and protest the Nazi regime over the camps? They would be rounded up and shot or sent their themselves.

Collin

my2hands wrote:

the evil of nazi germany was more then the holocaust... the militarization of their society and destruction of europe in pursuit of power and military dominance laid an entore continent to waste... and yes, most germans, or germany as a whole gleefuly cheered this on

they sure as hell didnt stop it

one of the things that gets lost whenever people talk about the nazis and hitler is the actual war and destruction. most focus on the holocaust, for good reason. but please dont forget the nazi war machine and the massive destruction it caused, with the german populations blessing

I know what you mean, and I agree for a big part but to me it just sounds a little too black and white.

Their war machine also meant the death of millions of Germans, I doubt many Germans were in a state of glee when their family members were being killed everywhere.

Hitler also did many good things for Germany. People cheered this on. Hitler gave the Germans their identity back, which they lost after WWI. People cheered this on. He created jobs, which the people also thought was a good thing. All of these things made Hitler popular, he even gave them a group of people to blame for their problems (we all know how people look for someone to blame in difficult times), again think about what Germany was like in the 30s, they had lost WWI and had to pay lots of reparations, they lost land to neighbouring countries, the economic depression, the threat of communism. The nazi party gave them a promise. They gave the Germans their identity back.
Look at what happened after 9/11, I don't know whether this is true because I don't live in the States but quite a few people have told me that after 9/11 you saw a lot more flags, a lot of bumper stickers that said "one nation under god", "god bless America"... People suffered a huge loss and they looked for something to hold on to. It must be comforting to know that when you're under attack people show their support, these people all said "we love our country and we're going to stick together and fight together." People need support.
The nazi party used Germany's identity crisis to gain power and support. Then there was of course the Reichstagsbrand, which again was used to gain support and power. It was an attack on Germany, on the German people, it was an attack on the "hope for a better future". Germans were afraid and angry and thus easily manipulated. This was done deliberately (of course no one would have believed this at the time.)

So yes, these people did indeed agree with protecting Germany and reclaiming what was theirs. Does that mean they cheered for the systematical liquidation of millions of people. I don't know.

Also, during this gradual process of propaganda people did see what was happening, people did speak up... but some of them were shot dead in the streets (and were later described as enemies of the state, as criminals, as terrorists in the media), others were transported to camps.

I imagine this has a great impact on people. You see people you agree with speaking the truth, standing up against tyranny and injustice but they are shot dead in cold blood, then it is either covered up or distorted. A father might think twice about going into the streets with a message that got others killed. Lots of Germans hid Jews later on, helped Jews escape etc. They did their part and risked their lives. A lot of things happened underground, most things anyway because of fear. Could they have done more? Again, I don't know.

How do you stop a machine that has a monopoly on truth? That controls everything you read and see?

And that's the whole point of this thread, I guess. We have to resist now before we find ourselves in a position where protesting means prison or worse death and where protest under any form is considered "terrorism" and where all dissidents are "enemy combatants." And people actually believe it.

So anyway, when you say they cheered it on or they didn't do anything to stop it, I disagree because to me it has a lot of grey areas. It sounds like all Germans were nazis and they all wanted to see millions of jews killed, which is not the case.

But I do agree to some extent. They didn't do anything (the point of the whole thread) and it led to a series of horrible events. They didn't do anything because they couldn't but they didn't do anything when they could. If that makes any sense.

Also, when I talk or think about Hitler and the nazis, I mostly think about the war and not the holocaust for the simple reason that we (where I live) were occupied and the fact that my grandfather died because of that war. The war affected the people here, and there are still traces of it everywhere.

beachdweller

Collin wrote:

Misinformed or just not informed?

And when you read some of the comments here, I'd say it's a very good communication. Americans seem to think it cannot happen. Why not? No one has anwered why it cannot happen.

The thing is with the attitude most people show here, the US would be a perfect target for oppression. Indifference, egotistical and not informed.

I think the way he communicated isn't nearly as effective as it should be. There is nothing going on now, that is effecting the majority of Americans, that would lead them to take his example seriously. They aren't jumping on board cause they don't feel that this is a possibility right now.

I'm saying by more effective and show talk to us about the problem, how it's effecting us now, and tomorrow in a way that will get people to be motivated to join the fight.

Also, I don't think the U S is a perfect target for opression, etc...to the extent of that of what happened in Germany. We'll stand up and fight, even if it's not until the last possible second. We'll pay dearly for waiting so long, but we'll take our country back.

beachdweller

Collin wrote:

I know what you mean, and I agree for a big part but to me it just sounds a little too black and white.

Their war machine also meant the death of millions of Germans, I doubt many Germans were in a state of glee when their family members were being killed everywhere.

Hitler also did many good things for Germany. People cheered this on. Hitler gave the Germans their identity back, which they lost after WWI. People cheered this on. He created jobs, which the people also thought was a good thing. All of these things made Hitler popular, he even gave them a group of people to blame for their problems (we all know how people look for someone to blame in difficult times), again think about what Germany was like in the 30s, they had lost WWI and had to pay lots of reparations, they lost land to neighbouring countries, the economic depression, the threat of communism. The nazi party gave them a promise. They gave the Germans their identity back.
Look at what happened after 9/11, I don't know whether this is true because I don't live in the States but quite a few people have told me that after 9/11 you saw a lot more flags, a lot of bumper stickers that said "one nation under god", "god bless America"... People suffered a huge loss and they looked for something to hold on to. It must be comforting to know that when you're under attack people show their support, these people all said "we love our country and we're going to stick together and fight together." People need support.
The nazi party used Germany's identity crisis to gain power and support. Then there was of course the Reichstagsbrand, which again was used to gain support and power. It was an attack on Germany, on the German people, it was an attack on the "hope for a better future". Germans were afraid and angry and thus easily manipulated. This was done deliberately (of course no one would have believed this at the time.)

So yes, these people did indeed agree with protecting Germany and reclaiming what was theirs. Does that mean they cheered for the systematical liquidation of millions of people. I don't know.

Also, during this gradual process of propaganda people did see what was happening, people did speak up... but some of them were shot dead in the streets (and were later described as enemies of the state, as criminals, as terrorists in the media), others were transported to camps.

I imagine this has a great impact on people. You see people you agree with speaking the truth, standing up against tyranny and injustice but they are shot dead in cold blood, then it is either covered up or distorted. A father might think twice about going into the streets with a message that got others killed. Lots of Germans hid Jews later on, helped Jews escape etc. They did their part and risked their lives. A lot of things happened underground, most things anyway because of fear. Could they have done more? Again, I don't know.

How do you stop a machine that has a monopoly on truth? That controls everything you read and see?

And that's the whole point of this thread, I guess. We have to resist now before we find ourselves in a position where protesting means prison or worse death and where protest under any form is considered "terrorism" and where all dissidents are "enemy combatants." And people actually believe it.

So anyway, when you say they cheered it on or they didn't do anything to stop it, I disagree because to me it has a lot of grey areas. It sounds like all Germans were nazis and they all wanted to see millions of jews killed, which is not the case.

But I do agree to some extent. They didn't do anything (the point of the whole thread) and it led to a series of horrible events. They didn't do anything because they couldn't but they didn't do anything when they could. If that makes any sense.

Also, when I talk or think about Hitler and the nazis, I mostly think about the war and not the holocaust for the simple reason that we (where I live) were occupied and the fact that my grandfather died because of that war. The war affected the people here, and there are still traces of it everywhere.

one thing I think about in regards to nazis and Germany is the time from the end of WWI to the start of WWII. That wasn't black and white either, and that's the time that somewhat fits into the point he was making, which was over symplified. A lot happened, was already in place, etc... and the U S isn't no were near having those symptoms.

How the Nazis came to power is a part of history that needs more attention.

Abuskedti

What up Abook?.. you don't like the way I resist... I don't vote in these national elections for show...

and perpetuate retribution

we still pretend our actions have not caused the deaths of a million Iraqi, and injured and displaced many times more..

we look so much like Nazi's, but more shameful because we had their example to guard against..

we are so far past enough it is dizzying.

Abookamongstthemany

Abuskedti wrote:

What up Abook?.. you don't like the way I resist... I don't vote in these national elections for show...

and perpetuate retribution

we still pretend our actions have not caused the deaths of a million Iraqi, and injured and displaced many times more..

we look so much like Nazi's, but more shameful because we had their example to guard against..

we are so far past enough it is dizzying.

Abu, I'm starting to understand your method of resistance more than you know.

Abookamongstthemany

beachdweller wrote:

one thing I think about in regards to nazis and Germany is the time from the end of WWI to the start of WWII. That wasn't black and white either, and that's the time that somewhat fits into the point he was making, which was over symplified. A lot happened, was already in place, etc... and the U S isn't no were near having those symptoms.

How the Nazis came to power is a part of history that needs more attention.

the same way the people who are elected in to our gov't come into power...lying to the people, promising them this and that and doing the opposite and getting the people to believe their bullshit.

Abookamongstthemany

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/torture-impeachment-or-complicity-with-graphic-photos-video-over-18-only/

El_Kabong

Collin wrote:

I think you're wrong about this. A lot of Germans didn't know what truly went on in those camps, though they probably knew it wasn't pretty. But please do show me I'm wrong and present a piece of evidence which shows "they mostly cheered it on."

Also, bear in mind that those who did know about the atrocities or anyone for that matter could immediately be labelled as an enemy of the state and be shipped to camps themselves or be killed.

That's why it's important we act now. We should resist now before any act of resistance is labelled "terrorism" and people become too scared to act.

We need to show our governments (because this isn't just an American thing, or a temporary thing either) that we won't stand oppression, corruption and abuse. We, as a people, need to let the people we elect know that they work for us. We should stand up together and put aside our differences to let the leaders of the world know we won't tolerate violation of rights, more and more restrictions on fundamental freedoms, abuse and oppression... This isn't a left/right issue, this is something we should all agree on because it can and will affect us all.

Also, I've noticed that a lot of people comment on the video and say it won't happen, and the nazi comparison is stupid... but who's actually answered the question:

What's it going to take before you decide to resist?

Seriously, think about it and answer that question, where would you draw the line? When will you say, this is wrong and we need to act?

maybe we've already came to that?

from Knight Ridder Washington Bureau

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-15606053_ITM

ACLU tries to force Pentagon to turn over records on peace groups.

Byline: Drew Brown

WASHINGTON _ A civil rights group sued the Defense Department on Wednesday in an effort to force the Pentagon to turn over information it's collected on peace groups and antiwar activists under a controversial program designed to track terrorists.

The lawsuit, filed in Philadelphia by the American Civil Liberties Union, asks the Defense Department to produce records it's collected under its Threat and Local Observation Notice program. Former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz started TALON in 2003 to track groups and individuals with possible links to terrorists and others who might pose a threat to Defense Department installations and personnel.

ACLU officials say the program has been wrongfully extended to monitor peace groups who were doing nothing more than expressing their views.

"The U.S. military should not be in the business of maintaining secret databases about lawful First Amendment activities," ACLU attorney Ben Wizner said. "It's an abuse of power and an abuse of trust for the military to play any role in monitoring critics of administration policies."

Lt. Col. Brian Maka, a Pentagon spokesman, said it would be inappropriate to comment on ongoing litigation.

TALON was based on an earlier Air Force project launched in 2002 known as "Eagle Eyes," under which military personnel were encouraged to report suspicious activity.

The ACLU said it sued after the Pentagon refused to comply with a Freedom of Information Act request seeking information it had collected on the ACLU, the American Friends Service Committee, Greenpeace, Veterans for Peace, United for Peace and Justice, and 26 other groups and activists

ACLU affiliates in Florida, Georgia, Rhode Island, Maine, Pennsylvania and Washington state have joined in the lawsuit.

The groups argue that organizations and people monitored by the Pentagon have a right to know what information has been collected about them. The lawsuit seeks to determine whether that information has been shared or will be shared with other federal agencies.

Steven Aftergood, the director of the Federation of American Scientists' Project on Government Secrecy, said the ACLU lawsuit probably would be an uphill battle.

"The courts tend to be deferential to government agencies on issues of national security," he said.

But there are exceptions, and sometimes there's a middle ground under which government agencies will release sensitive information, Aftergood said.

"Sometimes a lawsuit is necessary to get a serious response from the government," he said. "But only rarely is a judge going to force an agency to disclose records it doesn't want to disclose."

(EDITORS: STORY CAN END HERE)

News stories about the secret program prompted the Defense Department last December to order a review of TALON to see whether it complied with Pentagon regulations and U.S. law. The review also was supposed to determine whether some records and information had been stored improperly in the program's database.

Maka said he couldn't comment on whether the review had been completed because of the lawsuit.

Aftergood said the biggest problems with TALON were a lack of oversight and improper collection of information on U.S. citizens.

"Certainly, the Pentagon needs to be alert against threats against its facilities," he said. "But they also need to comply with the law and respect the constitutional rights of U.S. citizens."

---

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=14702

From 2003 to 2007, an unknown number of them made it into the Pentagon's "Threat and Local Observation Notice" system (TALON), a secretive domestic spying program ostensibly designed to track direct "potential terrorist threats" to the Department of Defense itself. Last year, via Freedom of Information Act requests, the ACLU uncovered at least 186 specific TALON reports on "anti-military protests" in the U.S. -- some listed as "credible threats" --- from student groups at the University of California-Santa Cruz, State University of New York, Georgia State University, and New Mexico State University, among other campuses.


At more than a dozen universities and colleges, police officers now double as full-time FBI agents and, according to the Campus Law Enforcement Journal, serve on many of the nation's 100 Joint Terrorism Task Forces. These dual-purpose officer-agents have knocked on student activists' doors from North Carolina State to the University of Colorado and, in one case, interrogated an Iraqi-born professor at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst about his antiwar views.



4. Mine student records: Student records have, in recent years, been opened up to all manner of data mining for purposes of investigation, recruitment, or just all-purpose tracking. From 2001 to 2006, in an operation code-named "Project Strike Back," the Department of Education teamed up with the FBI to scour the records of the 14 million students who applied for federal financial aid each year. The objective? "To identify potential people of interest," explained an FBI spokesperson cryptically, especially those linked to "potential terrorist activity."

Strike Back was quietly discontinued in June 2006, days after students at Northwestern University blew its cover. But just one month later, the Education Department's Commission on the Future of Higher Education, in a much-criticized preliminary report, recommended the creation of a federal "unit record" database that would track the activities and studies of college students nationwide. The Department's Institute of Education Sciences has developed a prototype for such a national database.

It's not a secret that the Pentagon, for its part, hopes to turn campuses into recruitment centers for its overstretched, overstressed forces. In fact, the Department of Defense (DoD) has built its own database for just this purpose. Known as Joint Advertising Market Research and Studies, this program now tracks 30 million young people, ages 16 to 25. According to a Pentagon spokesperson, the DoD has partnered with private marketing and data mining firms, which, in turn, sell the government reams of information on students and other potential recruits.

El_Kabong

beachdweller wrote:

I don't care about the sensitivity around the Holocause or Nazis. It's about communcating a point of view to as many peopls as possible to expand the support on the issue. If you lose them before they've got your point, what's the purpose?

those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it

my2hands

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Abu, I'm starting to understand your method of resistance more than you know.

a defeatist cynic?


that leads to zero progress, no thanks

Collin

beachdweller wrote:

I think the way he communicated isn't nearly as effective as it should be. There is nothing going on now, that is effecting the majority of Americans, that would lead them to take his example seriously. They aren't jumping on board cause they don't feel that this is a possibility right now.

I'm saying by more effective and show talk to us about the problem, how it's effecting us now, and tomorrow in a way that will get people to be motivated to join the fight.

Also, I don't think the U S is a perfect target for opression, etc...to the extent of that of what happened in Germany. We'll stand up and fight, even if it's not until the last possible second. We'll pay dearly for waiting so long, but we'll take our country back.

You're right, people don't feel like it is a possibility right now. Key words being; right now. Although plenty of people disagree with a lot of actions by the government, or policies, or laws etc.
So what is it that keeps them from speaking up? Comfort maybe? They're not directly affected. Or maybe that saying "ignorance is bliss" does hold some truth?

I think plenty of people know what can happen, a simple reminder should be enough to stir something within them. My grandfather used to say people didn't appreciate their lives enough. He was right.

If people don't know what can happen, then I think his example isn't a bad one. If people don't know, you can only explain it to them. That's what he did, using a real example. His message is valuable. It illustrates the problem perfectly; it's a worst case scenario.

Anyway, I do agree with you to some extent. But there are plenty of intelligible and intelligent people pointing out the problems we're facing today. People who are able to look at the problems objectively.

This video is not the voice of an entire group of people.

Also, I think it's great you're willing to resist. I just don't understand why you'd wait (this is a generic you, because I do believe most people don't want oppression).
And I don't see a nazi-like Germany happening either. But I do believe we, the world, are slowly heading towards a less free world. It seems that things are getting progressively more fucked up.

We live in a paradox. We're in the middle of this huge desert we call freedom, and every day the horizon is a little less far, but the movement is barely noticeable.

These little changes, these law, acts, policies seems to affect no one, but they do. And their existance has opened a door. edit: Just read Kabong's post.

El_Kabong

my2hands wrote:

a defeatist cynic?


that leads to zero progress, no thanks

no progress is exactly what a vote for any of the 3 corporate candidates will bring, no thanks

Abuskedti

my2hands wrote:

a defeatist cynic?


that leads to zero progress, no thanks

Progress? We haven't had progress in years... pretending only lets it continue.

We are still absolutely ignorant in dealing with other countries... our solution to problems is still drop bombs... Progress??

We can't play along! The television shapes the thoughts of the masses... and the televison's greatest draw is how it can be used as a decepting way and getting ahead - financially and politically..

progress???

please... we have given up long ago.. and any effort to pretend differently is another straw on our back...

lazymoon13

Abuskedti wrote:

Progress? We haven't had progress in years... pretending only lets it continue.

We are still absolutely ignorant in dealing with other countries... our solution to problems is still drop bombs... Progress??

We can't play along! The television shapes the thoughts of the masses... and the televison's greatest draw is how it can be used as a decepting way and getting ahead - financially and politically..

progress???

please... we have given up long ago.. and any effort to pretend differently is another straw on our back...

.like he said. a true defeatist cynic..

Abuskedti

lazymoon13 wrote:

.like he said. a true defeatist cynic..

oh I am quite sure you can get millions to agree with that... those that don't want to make things right, just want to keep things so they can take.. We have a horrific record of working well together and are led my a man that created Iraq - he can stay in power just say - oh that was a mistake..

I am not a cynic at all.. I only ask that we look at things as they are - not be afraid to recognize areas requiring improvement..

it has become common to say it is unpatriotic to critize the United States... how sick is that. do I not point out areas of improvement my children need.

are you afraid someone is listening.. are you happy to be better than Saddam... and proud to have already achieved that?

stuckinline

ok, so what WILL it take before YOU resist?


$5.00 a gallon gas?

lack of food in the stores?

lack of clean water/air?

high food prices? (the rioting has begun in certain areas of the world)

a massive power outage?

your rights and/or liberties being taken away?

marshall law?

will it take a disruption in YOUR daily life, before YOU will do SOMETHING, ANYTHING?


disclaimer, i am NOT directing these questions to any ONE person posting here, i'm just asking in general.......what would it take?

my2hands

Abuskedti wrote:

Progress? We haven't had progress in years... pretending only lets it continue.

We are still absolutely ignorant in dealing with other countries... our solution to problems is still drop bombs... Progress??

We can't play along! The television shapes the thoughts of the masses... and the televison's greatest draw is how it can be used as a decepting way and getting ahead - financially and politically..

progress???

please... we have given up long ago.. and any effort to pretend differently is another straw on our back...

perhaps if more people were not cynical defeatists that are too cool to vote actually voted we would not have had this war monger in office the past 8 years...

Abuskedti

my2hands wrote:

perhaps if more people were not cynical defeatists that are too cool to vote actually voted we would not have had this war monger in office the past 8 years...

I voted for the one guy with a chance to beat him. But America wanted George W Bush as their president. The reason for that is not being addressed.

Television may be the number one reason.