Ah, I see, that's the problem. He's not saying that at all. He's saying: this is what can happen. Make damn sure it doesn't happen again.
The holocaust is the extreme result of inaction, but I personally won't sit around and wait to speak up and stand up until they start killing people systematically by the millions. Wiretapping is enough for me, and that's just one example.
So you can either keep debating how the US isn't 1930s Germany or you can address the actual point and anwer the question.
Do you agree with wiretapping, torture, Guantánamo and so on? If not, what are you doing about it?
it doesn't speak to those that don't already agree? making points directly about what constitutional rights we've lost and/or abuses that need to be addressed and how it effects us now is a better argument.
Germany was still a mess and in massive turmoil from WWI. Jews were blamed for Germanies loss in WWI. There was a base hatred there, and it was manipulated. Germanies government, was not ours, their constitution wasn't ours.
saying if we don't do this, we'll be nazi germany doesn't resonate with even a large majority. I agree with what's wrong, and we need to take action, but his argument was a turn-off. Made me think of a Karl Rove type argument style that Bush or Cheney might use. It reminds me of the last 7 years.
It's not a good communication of an important issue IMO.
It was good communcation because people always say and think this can't happen here and he shows how it can and did happen to people who thought the exact same thing!!
For the millionth time, he didn't say if we don't do this, we''ll end up like Nazi Germany! He showed Nazi Germany as an example of not rising up. Did they not rise up when the govt abused it's power?? Yes. Did they end up with a very bad situation because of that?? Yes. See how that makes his point yet?
His point: Stand up against the govt's abuse of power. It will get worse if you don't. Nothing is stopping them from taking more from you. You don't believe me or think it can happen to you??...Here's proof it can happen and just how easy it was for them to do it.
When you're making a case, you're supposed to show evidence. And what better evidence is there of the fallback of abuse of power and a submissive population than Nazi Germany? There is none. Most people refer to this as 'a great example of this would be....'
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
'It turns people off'??? No shit, so does most things that involve placing blame on themselves, taking responsibility and hearing things they don't want to. this has nothing to do with why it turns people off. I don't think anyone is thinking "oh, it's my fault". It's about talking to people that are not on board in a way that they can take serious. Talk about how it effects them now, and how that ties to and effects them. If his argument is soooo effective in it's current state, why is it such an obscure one? It's an important point, but I don't think it's made effectively.
Are we not supposed to teach about the Holocaust because it's too extreme? really, because Bush administration abused it's constitutional authority, which most Americans aren't even aware of what authority he should or should not have, bring the Holocause into the mix, and we'll all jump on the bandwagon, sorry, not being it, but maybe I'll try it out on a few friends and see what happens Of course not. And there's nothing wrong with using it here. Just like when people make the case for Global Warming, they point out the worst cases of it afftecting our planet.yeah, but Global Warming has major quantifiable symptoms effecting people everyday, whether that's the true cause (I think it is, but not every extreme weather event is), it's a not a stretch, and I think the thought of being to late to effect change on global warming is far more effective than in regards to the loss of rights. And they should because it's very important and can't contiue to be ignored, neither can this. That's how you get your point across to show how bad it can get. The only parallel drawn was the inaction not the circumstances. The inaction is what we have to address here. If he claimed we were like Nazi Germany then you'd have a point but he didn't. He posed a questioned based on our history of inaction as a country and sited a great example of how bad this kind of uninvolved citizenry who doesn't hold their govt accountable CAN getRight, what can, but this isn't an overnight problem, and we aren't at a point of no return, so the sense of urgency isn't there. Hense the approach he took isn't effective IMO. A big problem is the weak government and civics education in public schools. Sure would make it easier to get people on board if they understood it better, but I still think his approach turns people off, and it's not because they blame themselves And if that happens to frighten you, it's only because you know we are doing nothing here and stand to lose a lot more freedom if this trend keeps up. I mean, what or who is stopping them?? People SHOULD be worried about it...it's not going to just go away with happy thoughts and avoidance of the problem.yeah, I'm not scared, the Euro is strong and I had a great time living there, that being said, though it didn't need to be, yes I understand the importance, I've never said anything about happy thoughts or avoidance, my point is communicating more effectively. There are no symptoms or problems from this issue that are effecting most Americans on a day to day basis. So the example with Germany doesn't work. What is this issue doing now to effect us? How will it effect us tomorrow? This is a more effective approach. They can relate. As bad as the Holocause and Nazi Germany has been taught in History, other than bad things happened, how it came to be has been taught better by the History channel than history class. Does this make more sense?
quote]
this kind of communication has been one of the major reasons change has eluded us. What does the example to Germany mean to a 20 or 30 something? How do you get the majority to listen? Don't you want your argument to draw them in with something that effects them now, that they can relate to in their lives? In this time of massive attention deficit you need to effect the now don't you?
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
It was good communcation because people always say and think this can't happen here and he shows how it can and did happen to people who thought the exact same thing!!I don't think so, that's over simplifying it. We are so different, the situation isn't even close, it's a far fetched notion that most people won't even think twice about. So if you are turning people off, before they get your point, how is that a good communication? Is there a chance, yes, but the evidence doesn't warrant the exaggeration at this time if your point is to get as many people as possible to listen. Which if you want change should be the goal.
His point: Stand up against the govt's abuse of power. It will get worse if you don't. Nothing is stopping them from taking more from you. You don't believe me or think it can happen to you??...Here's proof it can happen and just how easy it was for them to do it.my point, his point will not reach enough people for any change to happen, cause the way he made it will keep them from listening
When you're making a case, you're supposed to show evidence. And what better evidence is there of the fallback of abuse of power and a submissive population than Nazi Germany? There is none. Most people refer to this as 'a great example of this would be....'no argument here, but there is evidence that can be used that will resonate with us now, and tomorrow that people will listen to, and would work in gaining far more support, than with what he used IMO
I don't care about the sensitivity around the Holocause or Nazis. It's about communcating a point of view to as many peopls as possible to expand the support on the issue. If you lose them before they've got your point, what's the purpose?
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
I don't care about the sensitivity around the Holocause or Nazis. It's about communcating a point of view to as many peopls as possible to expand the support on the issue. If you lose them before they've got your point, what's the purpose?
The majority aren't listening to this message with or without this example so your point is moot. Everyone wants to hear the stuff that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside not so much about the stuff where they are to blame and have responsibilty in. 'Ewww...turned off. Give me some more of that empty hope and change rhetoric and the latest about how much weight Britany Spears has gained!' That makes me feel better about me.'
And the ones of you here that shut out the point of the video and thread to dismiss it wholly over him using Nazi's as an example (even though they fit perfectly into what he was saying) know that I have accused you of following along and playing a rigged game instead of stand up against our corrupted govt. It's easy to see how supporters of the Democratic party wouldn't want to address the point and find anyway to dismiss it (even though it's clear you know what the guy is saying and admit it's a problem) because you are allowing this abuses to continue through supporting the types that make it happen
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The majority aren't listening to this message with or without this example so your point is moot. Everyone wants to hear the stuff that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside not so much about the stuff where they are to blame and have responsibilty in. 'Ewww...turned off. Give me some more of that empty hope and change rhetoric and the latest about how much weight Britany Spears has gained!' That makes me feel better about me.'
And the ones of you here that shut out the point of the video and thread to dismiss it wholly over him using Nazi's as an example (even though they fit perfectly into what he was saying) know that I have accused you of following along and playing a rigged game instead of stand up against our corrupted govt. It's easy to see how supporters of the Democratic party wouldn't want to address the point and find anyway to dismiss it (even though it's clear you know what the guy is saying and admit it's a problem) because you are allowing this abuses to continue through supporting the types that make it happen
good luck with that, sure is easy to throw blame at people, and put generalizations on why they do what they do or don't do. Even make excuses for those that can't communicate with more people about important points without falling into the same game as those that use abusive rhetoric in the media.
as for your rhetoric about hope and change, it's more effective than anything you've stated in this thread.
Obama has said that people will make the difference, not Washinton alone, that we will have to sacrifice. That's an important part of making a difference, actually he has several strong things going for him: people listen to him, are challenged and motivated by him, are getting involved, and their involvement means more people are speaking about issues, whether they agree with him or not. I doubt most people are blindly for anything and everything Obama.
disagree that's fine, but this whole warm and fuzzy thing you think people believe in, this idea that they purposely ignore that which is "their" fault (which I'm sure is really helpful to tell people), I doubt that's an accurate account of why people aren't involved more. It's not helpful that people that follow Nadar are sometimes written off as left wing nuts. Everyone has different reasons for everything they do, this country is diverse in it's make up. If anything, it's far closer to the truth that we are ignorant to what doesn't effect us directly in our daily lives, or we are tragically misinformed as a nation.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
Collin's post was excellent. I hope more people address what he said in it. He got the point of the video and this thread perfectly, looked at it objectively without the reactionary response of 'How dare evil nazis be mentioned in the same breath with the US!?' Kudos to him!
You must though understand and be sympathetic to the offense taken
.......from childhood we've been subjected to national anthems, pledging allegiance, god blessing America, Fk...go to a Nascar race.....wondering how long it will be before the attendees will come up with they're own hiel hitler solute prior to the race...
I do though give credit for all those that visit this board....because they tolerate and want to discuss these topics...and thats a really great thing.
Not sure if this has been covered...but the Germans were well educated ....great intellect..yet were still punked.....and this soooo much reminds me of what the cheney clan did in the US after 9/11.
Obama has said that people will make the difference, not Washinton alone, that we will have to sacrifice. That's an important part of making a difference, actually he has several strong things going for him: people listen to him, are challenged and motivated by him, are getting involved, and their involvement means more people are speaking about issues, whether they agree with him or not. I doubt most people are blindly for anything and everything Obama.
.
Obama turned me off big time last couple weeks.....supporting corporate windfall tax along with interfering in CEO pay......BUT he is yet the closest thing to someone attempting to shoot straight.....I'm though afraid most people can't or don't want to handle the truth and we'll get freakin McCain...
good luck with that, sure is easy to throw blame at people, and put generalizations on why they do what they do or don't do. Even make excuses for those that can't communicate with more people about important points without falling into the same game as those that use abusive rhetoric in the media.
There were quite a few here that did get what the video was saying. You act
as if because you didn't like what he had to say, that that will be indicative of what everyone else who views the video will take from it. He did not employ media tactics in his presentation. That's like saying anytime we discuss sensitive topics that may contain graphic images or subject matter..we are sensationalizing. When it was a FACT that Nazi Germany happened and it was due to a submissive population who let their 'elected' govt run away with all the power. There's no getting around that fact or the fact that our rights are also being stripped without any resistance on a large scale. This is not over dramatizing anything...it's just stating facts.
as for your rhetoric about hope and change, it's more effective than anything you've stated in this thread.
No it's not...it's just a ploy to get you to have faith in your govt again based on nothing but words. What I posted at the very least caused people to think.
Obama has said that people will make the difference, not Washinton alone, that we will have to sacrifice. That's an important part of making a difference, actually he has several strong things going for him: people listen to him, are challenged and motivated by him, are getting involved, and their involvement means more people are speaking about issues, whether they agree with him or not. I doubt most people are blindly for anything and everything Obama.
He has said 'people will make the difference' while he hasn't made any himself. So rich. He record is telling. He says how 'people will make the difference' while voting for things he tells them he's against in order to gain power. Lead by example much? I guess if we all follow his examples, we can ignore what we believe in in order to get that good paying job at Lockheed Martin. I mean, my one vote or say isn't going to matter anyway and this way I'll be making more money so I can give more to charities and non profits who might be helping those who are suffering...suffering in the first place due to the practices of....you guessed it....Lockheed Martin. Problem solved!!! See how linear thinking works out?
disagree that's fine, but this whole warm and fuzzy thing you think people believe in, this idea that they purposely ignore that which is "their" fault (which I'm sure is really helpful to tell people), I doubt that's an accurate account of why people aren't involved more. It's not helpful that people that follow Nadar are sometimes written off as left wing nuts. Everyone has different reasons for everything they do, this country is diverse in it's make up. If anything, it's far closer to the truth that we are ignorant to what doesn't effect us directly in our daily lives, or we are tragically misinformed as a nation.
On this I agree.
The liberals support the Democratic Party because they still believe in the government but think it's just the Republicans that are corrupt. They continue to ignore the fact that the Democrats are engaging in the same corrupt activities because every new election year, they buy into a heavily marketed campaign paid for by corporations telling them how this new guy is going to be 'different' is going to bring 'change' and 'set things back the way they should be. They believe this everytime because one, they don't think they have any options (why not?....it could be just as easy for the whole lot of them to back someone who isn't funded by special interests and has a long history of being out there working for them) and two, they ignore all the warning signs pointing to the 'new guy' pulling a lot of the 'old tricks'. They don't want to hear about that because in America it's about winning and competition. They are often afraid to back someone who they feel won't win even if they agree with someone else's stances more. I've heard it on this board numerous times. 'My guy's at least gonna win'...'what good is your guy if he doesn't get voted in' and things like that. They fail to realize that this mentality is the precise reason why other guys won't get voted in! What they should say is the other guys won't get voted in because of me. At least that would be more diect and to the point. It's because YOU were afraid to get behind them! And instead you chose to go with a party who has done nothing but pander, make empty promises, get richer off war, sneak stuff into bills to help their special interest buddies and then smile in your face, saying how they are soooooo against all that and are doing all they can to stop this...just bare with them. Frankly, I think we've gave them enough of our time, money and chances. And what have they done with it? Look around...not too damn much...mediocre at best, corrupt and flat out lying at the worst.
And it's not just you guys, conservatives support the Republican party because they know that the government has been ineffectual and believe Republicans when they pretend to be for 'less government'. They fail to realize that these guys are just as much to blame for the bloated govt as their Democratic counterparts. They want to blame all the woes on the Democrats. If cons can't see through this rhetoric of being so critical of big government, while one, being a part of it and two, expanding it even more, then they really need to wake up. The funny thing is, most of the conservatives on this board have. You'll hardly see any of them praising McCain. They have realized that these guys are corrupt and are purposefully expanding the same govt that they claim to dislike so much to line their pockets and the pockets of their special interest buddies. They have started to understand that the rhetoric isn't adding up to what these guys are doing in office. Maybe this awakening isn't wide spread but it is what I'm getting from my conservative friends here on this board and it is hopeful because it's a start.
The thing that bugs me the most is that both groups will tell you how corrupt our govt is and the opposing parties is. But each new election year, the majority goes out and supports a broken system anyway...like this time it's going to be so different. And it NEVER is! The libs pulled away and distanced themselves from Clinton after telling us all how he was going to be so different and bring such needed new fresh air into Washington and they gave him 8 years. It is obvious he wasn't much to brag about and was mostly hot air.
The cons have all pulled away from Bush after telling us how he would be so effective and tough on terrorism and how he was such a uniter and strong leader who won't be afraid to get the job done and they gave him 8 years. It's obvious there is no way to win a war on terrorism while committing terrorist acts of aggression on other people. Duh! That's what creates terrorists in the first place, geniuses! It's now obvious what was really important was securing Iraq's oil resources and lining the pockets of his cronies and special interests. It's obvious the hype over Bush circa first term and 04/05 was bullshit and nothing but hot air.
My question is, we knew even before the last 15 years, that this current system wasn't working for us and that these two parties where a lot alike and not doing their job represnting our needs but we went along anyway and what do we have to show for it? Have we became this great nation like they promised us we would? Have we seen all the things happen that they so proudly sold themselves to us with? Have all the problems they claimed they would resolve been fixed or grown worse? Could we have not choosen more wisely and told these two parties thanks but no thanks...we've given you a chance but you've continued to fail so it only makes sense for us to now look for a solution elsewhere and saved ourselves the trouble and crippling/crumbling of our nation that we have endured the last 15 years?! Could we not learn from our past mistakes? How are these new guys going to be any different when their records show so much that looks very familiar to the problems we've already been experiencing with our past elected officials? When will be the year when we tell them enough is enough and finally move on?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
If anything, it's far closer to the truth that we are ignorant to what doesn't effect us directly in our daily lives, or we are tragically misinformed as a nation.
Misinformed or just not informed?
There are plenty of people who are trying to make a difference, who are offering important information. This is just one guy who is giving an example.
An example of how it happened in Germany, he's showing people what can happen when you don't resist. It's an example, not a comparison. He's not saying America is nazi Germany.
And when you read some of the comments here, I'd say it's a very good communication. Americans seem to think it cannot happen. Why not? No one has anwered why it cannot happen.
And it think using the holocaust as an example is a good way of showing people what can happen if they don't stand up and remain inactive.
But no one wants to hear that, in fact they're rather focus on how America isn't nazi Germany (great observation people!). They completely miss the point of the example, though the point is extremely easy to get.
The thing is with the attitude most people show here, the US would be a perfect target for oppression. Indifference, egotistical and not informed.
I think you're wrong about this. A lot of Germans didn't know what truly went on in those camps, though they probably knew it wasn't pretty. But please do show me I'm wrong and present a piece of evidence which shows "they mostly cheered it on."
the evil of nazi germany was more then the holocaust... the militarization of their society and destruction of europe in pursuit of power and military dominance laid an entore continent to waste... and yes, most germans, or germany as a whole gleefuly cheered this on
they sure as hell didnt stop it
one of the things that gets lost whenever people talk about the nazis and hitler is the actual war and destruction. most focus on the holocaust, for good reason. but please dont forget the nazi war machine and the massive destruction it caused, with the german populations blessing
the evil of nazi germany was more then the holocaust... the militarization of their society and destruction of europe in pursuit of power and military dominance laid an entore continent to waste... and yes, most germans, or germany as a whole gleefuly cheered this on
they sure as hell didnt stop it
one of the things that gets lost whenever people talk about the nazis and hitler is the actual war and destruction. most focus on the holocaust, for good reason. but please dont forget the nazi war machine and the massive destruction it caused, with the german populations blessing
And what were they really supposed to do? By this point the Nazi party had all the power, strength, guns, and more importantly the will to do anything to protect that.
You really think that people would be just allowed to speak out and protest the Nazi regime over the camps? They would be rounded up and shot or sent their themselves.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
the evil of nazi germany was more then the holocaust... the militarization of their society and destruction of europe in pursuit of power and military dominance laid an entore continent to waste... and yes, most germans, or germany as a whole gleefuly cheered this on
they sure as hell didnt stop it
one of the things that gets lost whenever people talk about the nazis and hitler is the actual war and destruction. most focus on the holocaust, for good reason. but please dont forget the nazi war machine and the massive destruction it caused, with the german populations blessing
I know what you mean, and I agree for a big part but to me it just sounds a little too black and white.
Their war machine also meant the death of millions of Germans, I doubt many Germans were in a state of glee when their family members were being killed everywhere.
Hitler also did many good things for Germany. People cheered this on. Hitler gave the Germans their identity back, which they lost after WWI. People cheered this on. He created jobs, which the people also thought was a good thing. All of these things made Hitler popular, he even gave them a group of people to blame for their problems (we all know how people look for someone to blame in difficult times), again think about what Germany was like in the 30s, they had lost WWI and had to pay lots of reparations, they lost land to neighbouring countries, the economic depression, the threat of communism. The nazi party gave them a promise. They gave the Germans their identity back.
Look at what happened after 9/11, I don't know whether this is true because I don't live in the States but quite a few people have told me that after 9/11 you saw a lot more flags, a lot of bumper stickers that said "one nation under god", "god bless America"... People suffered a huge loss and they looked for something to hold on to. It must be comforting to know that when you're under attack people show their support, these people all said "we love our country and we're going to stick together and fight together." People need support.
The nazi party used Germany's identity crisis to gain power and support. Then there was of course the Reichstagsbrand, which again was used to gain support and power. It was an attack on Germany, on the German people, it was an attack on the "hope for a better future". Germans were afraid and angry and thus easily manipulated. This was done deliberately (of course no one would have believed this at the time.)
So yes, these people did indeed agree with protecting Germany and reclaiming what was theirs. Does that mean they cheered for the systematical liquidation of millions of people. I don't know.
Also, during this gradual process of propaganda people did see what was happening, people did speak up... but some of them were shot dead in the streets (and were later described as enemies of the state, as criminals, as terrorists in the media), others were transported to camps.
I imagine this has a great impact on people. You see people you agree with speaking the truth, standing up against tyranny and injustice but they are shot dead in cold blood, then it is either covered up or distorted. A father might think twice about going into the streets with a message that got others killed. Lots of Germans hid Jews later on, helped Jews escape etc. They did their part and risked their lives. A lot of things happened underground, most things anyway because of fear. Could they have done more? Again, I don't know.
How do you stop a machine that has a monopoly on truth? That controls everything you read and see?
And that's the whole point of this thread, I guess. We have to resist now before we find ourselves in a position where protesting means prison or worse death and where protest under any form is considered "terrorism" and where all dissidents are "enemy combatants." And people actually believe it.
So anyway, when you say they cheered it on or they didn't do anything to stop it, I disagree because to me it has a lot of grey areas. It sounds like all Germans were nazis and they all wanted to see millions of jews killed, which is not the case.
But I do agree to some extent. They didn't do anything (the point of the whole thread) and it led to a series of horrible events. They didn't do anything because they couldn't but they didn't do anything when they could. If that makes any sense.
Also, when I talk or think about Hitler and the nazis, I mostly think about the war and not the holocaust for the simple reason that we (where I live) were occupied and the fact that my grandfather died because of that war. The war affected the people here, and there are still traces of it everywhere.
And when you read some of the comments here, I'd say it's a very good communication. Americans seem to think it cannot happen. Why not? No one has anwered why it cannot happen.
The thing is with the attitude most people show here, the US would be a perfect target for oppression. Indifference, egotistical and not informed.
I think the way he communicated isn't nearly as effective as it should be. There is nothing going on now, that is effecting the majority of Americans, that would lead them to take his example seriously. They aren't jumping on board cause they don't feel that this is a possibility right now.
I'm saying by more effective and show talk to us about the problem, how it's effecting us now, and tomorrow in a way that will get people to be motivated to join the fight.
Also, I don't think the U S is a perfect target for opression, etc...to the extent of that of what happened in Germany. We'll stand up and fight, even if it's not until the last possible second. We'll pay dearly for waiting so long, but we'll take our country back.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
I know what you mean, and I agree for a big part but to me it just sounds a little too black and white.
Their war machine also meant the death of millions of Germans, I doubt many Germans were in a state of glee when their family members were being killed everywhere.
Hitler also did many good things for Germany. People cheered this on. Hitler gave the Germans their identity back, which they lost after WWI. People cheered this on. He created jobs, which the people also thought was a good thing. All of these things made Hitler popular, he even gave them a group of people to blame for their problems (we all know how people look for someone to blame in difficult times), again think about what Germany was like in the 30s, they had lost WWI and had to pay lots of reparations, they lost land to neighbouring countries, the economic depression, the threat of communism. The nazi party gave them a promise. They gave the Germans their identity back.
Look at what happened after 9/11, I don't know whether this is true because I don't live in the States but quite a few people have told me that after 9/11 you saw a lot more flags, a lot of bumper stickers that said "one nation under god", "god bless America"... People suffered a huge loss and they looked for something to hold on to. It must be comforting to know that when you're under attack people show their support, these people all said "we love our country and we're going to stick together and fight together." People need support.
The nazi party used Germany's identity crisis to gain power and support. Then there was of course the Reichstagsbrand, which again was used to gain support and power. It was an attack on Germany, on the German people, it was an attack on the "hope for a better future". Germans were afraid and angry and thus easily manipulated. This was done deliberately (of course no one would have believed this at the time.)
So yes, these people did indeed agree with protecting Germany and reclaiming what was theirs. Does that mean they cheered for the systematical liquidation of millions of people. I don't know.
Also, during this gradual process of propaganda people did see what was happening, people did speak up... but some of them were shot dead in the streets (and were later described as enemies of the state, as criminals, as terrorists in the media), others were transported to camps.
I imagine this has a great impact on people. You see people you agree with speaking the truth, standing up against tyranny and injustice but they are shot dead in cold blood, then it is either covered up or distorted. A father might think twice about going into the streets with a message that got others killed. Lots of Germans hid Jews later on, helped Jews escape etc. They did their part and risked their lives. A lot of things happened underground, most things anyway because of fear. Could they have done more? Again, I don't know.
How do you stop a machine that has a monopoly on truth? That controls everything you read and see?
And that's the whole point of this thread, I guess. We have to resist now before we find ourselves in a position where protesting means prison or worse death and where protest under any form is considered "terrorism" and where all dissidents are "enemy combatants." And people actually believe it.
So anyway, when you say they cheered it on or they didn't do anything to stop it, I disagree because to me it has a lot of grey areas. It sounds like all Germans were nazis and they all wanted to see millions of jews killed, which is not the case.
But I do agree to some extent. They didn't do anything (the point of the whole thread) and it led to a series of horrible events. They didn't do anything because they couldn't but they didn't do anything when they could. If that makes any sense.
Also, when I talk or think about Hitler and the nazis, I mostly think about the war and not the holocaust for the simple reason that we (where I live) were occupied and the fact that my grandfather died because of that war. The war affected the people here, and there are still traces of it everywhere.
one thing I think about in regards to nazis and Germany is the time from the end of WWI to the start of WWII. That wasn't black and white either, and that's the time that somewhat fits into the point he was making, which was over symplified. A lot happened, was already in place, etc... and the U S isn't no were near having those symptoms.
How the Nazis came to power is a part of history that needs more attention.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
one thing I think about in regards to nazis and Germany is the time from the end of WWI to the start of WWII. That wasn't black and white either, and that's the time that somewhat fits into the point he was making, which was over symplified. A lot happened, was already in place, etc... and the U S isn't no were near having those symptoms.
How the Nazis came to power is a part of history that needs more attention.
the same way the people who are elected in to our gov't come into power...lying to the people, promising them this and that and doing the opposite and getting the people to believe their bullshit.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I think you're wrong about this. A lot of Germans didn't know what truly went on in those camps, though they probably knew it wasn't pretty. But please do show me I'm wrong and present a piece of evidence which shows "they mostly cheered it on."
Also, bear in mind that those who did know about the atrocities or anyone for that matter could immediately be labelled as an enemy of the state and be shipped to camps themselves or be killed.
That's why it's important we act now. We should resist now before any act of resistance is labelled "terrorism" and people become too scared to act.
We need to show our governments (because this isn't just an American thing, or a temporary thing either) that we won't stand oppression, corruption and abuse. We, as a people, need to let the people we elect know that they work for us. We should stand up together and put aside our differences to let the leaders of the world know we won't tolerate violation of rights, more and more restrictions on fundamental freedoms, abuse and oppression... This isn't a left/right issue, this is something we should all agree on because it can and will affect us all.
Also, I've noticed that a lot of people comment on the video and say it won't happen, and the nazi comparison is stupid... but who's actually answered the question:
What's it going to take before you decide to resist?
Seriously, think about it and answer that question, where would you draw the line? When will you say, this is wrong and we need to act?
ACLU tries to force Pentagon to turn over records on peace groups.
Byline: Drew Brown
WASHINGTON _ A civil rights group sued the Defense Department on Wednesday in an effort to force the Pentagon to turn over information it's collected on peace groups and antiwar activists under a controversial program designed to track terrorists.
The lawsuit, filed in Philadelphia by the American Civil Liberties Union, asks the Defense Department to produce records it's collected under its Threat and Local Observation Notice program. Former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz started TALON in 2003 to track groups and individuals with possible links to terrorists and others who might pose a threat to Defense Department installations and personnel.
ACLU officials say the program has been wrongfully extended to monitor peace groups who were doing nothing more than expressing their views.
"The U.S. military should not be in the business of maintaining secret databases about lawful First Amendment activities," ACLU attorney Ben Wizner said. "It's an abuse of power and an abuse of trust for the military to play any role in monitoring critics of administration policies."
Lt. Col. Brian Maka, a Pentagon spokesman, said it would be inappropriate to comment on ongoing litigation.
TALON was based on an earlier Air Force project launched in 2002 known as "Eagle Eyes," under which military personnel were encouraged to report suspicious activity.
The ACLU said it sued after the Pentagon refused to comply with a Freedom of Information Act request seeking information it had collected on the ACLU, the American Friends Service Committee, Greenpeace, Veterans for Peace, United for Peace and Justice, and 26 other groups and activists
ACLU affiliates in Florida, Georgia, Rhode Island, Maine, Pennsylvania and Washington state have joined in the lawsuit.
The groups argue that organizations and people monitored by the Pentagon have a right to know what information has been collected about them. The lawsuit seeks to determine whether that information has been shared or will be shared with other federal agencies.
Steven Aftergood, the director of the Federation of American Scientists' Project on Government Secrecy, said the ACLU lawsuit probably would be an uphill battle.
"The courts tend to be deferential to government agencies on issues of national security," he said.
But there are exceptions, and sometimes there's a middle ground under which government agencies will release sensitive information, Aftergood said.
"Sometimes a lawsuit is necessary to get a serious response from the government," he said. "But only rarely is a judge going to force an agency to disclose records it doesn't want to disclose."
(EDITORS: STORY CAN END HERE)
News stories about the secret program prompted the Defense Department last December to order a review of TALON to see whether it complied with Pentagon regulations and U.S. law. The review also was supposed to determine whether some records and information had been stored improperly in the program's database.
Maka said he couldn't comment on whether the review had been completed because of the lawsuit.
Aftergood said the biggest problems with TALON were a lack of oversight and improper collection of information on U.S. citizens.
"Certainly, the Pentagon needs to be alert against threats against its facilities," he said. "But they also need to comply with the law and respect the constitutional rights of U.S. citizens."
From 2003 to 2007, an unknown number of them made it into the Pentagon's "Threat and Local Observation Notice" system (TALON), a secretive domestic spying program ostensibly designed to track direct "potential terrorist threats" to the Department of Defense itself. Last year, via Freedom of Information Act requests, the ACLU uncovered at least 186 specific TALON reports on "anti-military protests" in the U.S. -- some listed as "credible threats" --- from student groups at the University of California-Santa Cruz, State University of New York, Georgia State University, and New Mexico State University, among other campuses.
At more than a dozen universities and colleges, police officers now double as full-time FBI agents and, according to the Campus Law Enforcement Journal, serve on many of the nation's 100 Joint Terrorism Task Forces. These dual-purpose officer-agents have knocked on student activists' doors from North Carolina State to the University of Colorado and, in one case, interrogated an Iraqi-born professor at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst about his antiwar views.
4. Mine student records: Student records have, in recent years, been opened up to all manner of data mining for purposes of investigation, recruitment, or just all-purpose tracking. From 2001 to 2006, in an operation code-named "Project Strike Back," the Department of Education teamed up with the FBI to scour the records of the 14 million students who applied for federal financial aid each year. The objective? "To identify potential people of interest," explained an FBI spokesperson cryptically, especially those linked to "potential terrorist activity."
Strike Back was quietly discontinued in June 2006, days after students at Northwestern University blew its cover. But just one month later, the Education Department's Commission on the Future of Higher Education, in a much-criticized preliminary report, recommended the creation of a federal "unit record" database that would track the activities and studies of college students nationwide. The Department's Institute of Education Sciences has developed a prototype for such a national database.
It's not a secret that the Pentagon, for its part, hopes to turn campuses into recruitment centers for its overstretched, overstressed forces. In fact, the Department of Defense (DoD) has built its own database for just this purpose. Known as Joint Advertising Market Research and Studies, this program now tracks 30 million young people, ages 16 to 25. According to a Pentagon spokesperson, the DoD has partnered with private marketing and data mining firms, which, in turn, sell the government reams of information on students and other potential recruits.
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I don't care about the sensitivity around the Holocause or Nazis. It's about communcating a point of view to as many peopls as possible to expand the support on the issue. If you lose them before they've got your point, what's the purpose?
those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I think the way he communicated isn't nearly as effective as it should be. There is nothing going on now, that is effecting the majority of Americans, that would lead them to take his example seriously. They aren't jumping on board cause they don't feel that this is a possibility right now.
I'm saying by more effective and show talk to us about the problem, how it's effecting us now, and tomorrow in a way that will get people to be motivated to join the fight.
Also, I don't think the U S is a perfect target for opression, etc...to the extent of that of what happened in Germany. We'll stand up and fight, even if it's not until the last possible second. We'll pay dearly for waiting so long, but we'll take our country back.
You're right, people don't feel like it is a possibility right now. Key words being; right now. Although plenty of people disagree with a lot of actions by the government, or policies, or laws etc.
So what is it that keeps them from speaking up? Comfort maybe? They're not directly affected. Or maybe that saying "ignorance is bliss" does hold some truth?
I think plenty of people know what can happen, a simple reminder should be enough to stir something within them. My grandfather used to say people didn't appreciate their lives enough. He was right.
If people don't know what can happen, then I think his example isn't a bad one. If people don't know, you can only explain it to them. That's what he did, using a real example. His message is valuable. It illustrates the problem perfectly; it's a worst case scenario.
Anyway, I do agree with you to some extent. But there are plenty of intelligible and intelligent people pointing out the problems we're facing today. People who are able to look at the problems objectively.
This video is not the voice of an entire group of people.
Also, I think it's great you're willing to resist. I just don't understand why you'd wait (this is a generic you, because I do believe most people don't want oppression).
And I don't see a nazi-like Germany happening either. But I do believe we, the world, are slowly heading towards a less free world. It seems that things are getting progressively more fucked up.
We live in a paradox. We're in the middle of this huge desert we call freedom, and every day the horizon is a little less far, but the movement is barely noticeable.
These little changes, these law, acts, policies seems to affect no one, but they do. And their existance has opened a door. edit: Just read Kabong's post.
no progress is exactly what a vote for any of the 3 corporate candidates will bring, no thanks
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Progress? We haven't had progress in years... pretending only lets it continue.
We are still absolutely ignorant in dealing with other countries... our solution to problems is still drop bombs... Progress??
We can't play along! The television shapes the thoughts of the masses... and the televison's greatest draw is how it can be used as a decepting way and getting ahead - financially and politically..
progress???
please... we have given up long ago.. and any effort to pretend differently is another straw on our back...
Progress? We haven't had progress in years... pretending only lets it continue.
We are still absolutely ignorant in dealing with other countries... our solution to problems is still drop bombs... Progress??
We can't play along! The television shapes the thoughts of the masses... and the televison's greatest draw is how it can be used as a decepting way and getting ahead - financially and politically..
progress???
please... we have given up long ago.. and any effort to pretend differently is another straw on our back...
oh I am quite sure you can get millions to agree with that... those that don't want to make things right, just want to keep things so they can take.. We have a horrific record of working well together and are led my a man that created Iraq - he can stay in power just say - oh that was a mistake..
I am not a cynic at all.. I only ask that we look at things as they are - not be afraid to recognize areas requiring improvement..
it has become common to say it is unpatriotic to critize the United States... how sick is that. do I not point out areas of improvement my children need.
are you afraid someone is listening.. are you happy to be better than Saddam... and proud to have already achieved that?
Progress? We haven't had progress in years... pretending only lets it continue.
We are still absolutely ignorant in dealing with other countries... our solution to problems is still drop bombs... Progress??
We can't play along! The television shapes the thoughts of the masses... and the televison's greatest draw is how it can be used as a decepting way and getting ahead - financially and politically..
progress???
please... we have given up long ago.. and any effort to pretend differently is another straw on our back...
perhaps if more people were not cynical defeatists that are too cool to vote actually voted we would not have had this war monger in office the past 8 years...
perhaps if more people were not cynical defeatists that are too cool to vote actually voted we would not have had this war monger in office the past 8 years...
I voted for the one guy with a chance to beat him. But America wanted George W Bush as their president. The reason for that is not being addressed.
Comments
Ah, I see, that's the problem. He's not saying that at all. He's saying: this is what can happen. Make damn sure it doesn't happen again.
The holocaust is the extreme result of inaction, but I personally won't sit around and wait to speak up and stand up until they start killing people systematically by the millions. Wiretapping is enough for me, and that's just one example.
So you can either keep debating how the US isn't 1930s Germany or you can address the actual point and anwer the question.
Do you agree with wiretapping, torture, Guantánamo and so on? If not, what are you doing about it?
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It was good communcation because people always say and think this can't happen here and he shows how it can and did happen to people who thought the exact same thing!!
For the millionth time, he didn't say if we don't do this, we''ll end up like Nazi Germany! He showed Nazi Germany as an example of not rising up. Did they not rise up when the govt abused it's power?? Yes. Did they end up with a very bad situation because of that?? Yes. See how that makes his point yet?
His point: Stand up against the govt's abuse of power. It will get worse if you don't. Nothing is stopping them from taking more from you. You don't believe me or think it can happen to you??...Here's proof it can happen and just how easy it was for them to do it.
When you're making a case, you're supposed to show evidence. And what better evidence is there of the fallback of abuse of power and a submissive population than Nazi Germany? There is none. Most people refer to this as 'a great example of this would be....'
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
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I don't care about the sensitivity around the Holocause or Nazis. It's about communcating a point of view to as many peopls as possible to expand the support on the issue. If you lose them before they've got your point, what's the purpose?
Stop by:
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The majority aren't listening to this message with or without this example so your point is moot. Everyone wants to hear the stuff that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside not so much about the stuff where they are to blame and have responsibilty in. 'Ewww...turned off. Give me some more of that empty hope and change rhetoric and the latest about how much weight Britany Spears has gained!' That makes me feel better about me.'
And the ones of you here that shut out the point of the video and thread to dismiss it wholly over him using Nazi's as an example (even though they fit perfectly into what he was saying) know that I have accused you of following along and playing a rigged game instead of stand up against our corrupted govt. It's easy to see how supporters of the Democratic party wouldn't want to address the point and find anyway to dismiss it (even though it's clear you know what the guy is saying and admit it's a problem) because you are allowing this abuses to continue through supporting the types that make it happen
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
good luck with that, sure is easy to throw blame at people, and put generalizations on why they do what they do or don't do. Even make excuses for those that can't communicate with more people about important points without falling into the same game as those that use abusive rhetoric in the media.
as for your rhetoric about hope and change, it's more effective than anything you've stated in this thread.
Obama has said that people will make the difference, not Washinton alone, that we will have to sacrifice. That's an important part of making a difference, actually he has several strong things going for him: people listen to him, are challenged and motivated by him, are getting involved, and their involvement means more people are speaking about issues, whether they agree with him or not. I doubt most people are blindly for anything and everything Obama.
disagree that's fine, but this whole warm and fuzzy thing you think people believe in, this idea that they purposely ignore that which is "their" fault (which I'm sure is really helpful to tell people), I doubt that's an accurate account of why people aren't involved more. It's not helpful that people that follow Nadar are sometimes written off as left wing nuts. Everyone has different reasons for everything they do, this country is diverse in it's make up. If anything, it's far closer to the truth that we are ignorant to what doesn't effect us directly in our daily lives, or we are tragically misinformed as a nation.
Stop by:
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.......from childhood we've been subjected to national anthems, pledging allegiance, god blessing America, Fk...go to a Nascar race.....wondering how long it will be before the attendees will come up with they're own hiel hitler solute prior to the race...
I do though give credit for all those that visit this board....because they tolerate and want to discuss these topics...and thats a really great thing.
Not sure if this has been covered...but the Germans were well educated ....great intellect..yet were still punked.....and this soooo much reminds me of what the cheney clan did in the US after 9/11.
Obama turned me off big time last couple weeks.....supporting corporate windfall tax along with interfering in CEO pay......BUT he is yet the closest thing to someone attempting to shoot straight.....I'm though afraid most people can't or don't want to handle the truth and we'll get freakin McCain...
There were quite a few here that did get what the video was saying. You act
as if because you didn't like what he had to say, that that will be indicative of what everyone else who views the video will take from it. He did not employ media tactics in his presentation. That's like saying anytime we discuss sensitive topics that may contain graphic images or subject matter..we are sensationalizing. When it was a FACT that Nazi Germany happened and it was due to a submissive population who let their 'elected' govt run away with all the power. There's no getting around that fact or the fact that our rights are also being stripped without any resistance on a large scale. This is not over dramatizing anything...it's just stating facts.
No it's not...it's just a ploy to get you to have faith in your govt again based on nothing but words. What I posted at the very least caused people to think.
He has said 'people will make the difference' while he hasn't made any himself. So rich. He record is telling. He says how 'people will make the difference' while voting for things he tells them he's against in order to gain power. Lead by example much? I guess if we all follow his examples, we can ignore what we believe in in order to get that good paying job at Lockheed Martin. I mean, my one vote or say isn't going to matter anyway and this way I'll be making more money so I can give more to charities and non profits who might be helping those who are suffering...suffering in the first place due to the practices of....you guessed it....Lockheed Martin. Problem solved!!! See how linear thinking works out?
On this I agree.
The liberals support the Democratic Party because they still believe in the government but think it's just the Republicans that are corrupt. They continue to ignore the fact that the Democrats are engaging in the same corrupt activities because every new election year, they buy into a heavily marketed campaign paid for by corporations telling them how this new guy is going to be 'different' is going to bring 'change' and 'set things back the way they should be. They believe this everytime because one, they don't think they have any options (why not?....it could be just as easy for the whole lot of them to back someone who isn't funded by special interests and has a long history of being out there working for them) and two, they ignore all the warning signs pointing to the 'new guy' pulling a lot of the 'old tricks'. They don't want to hear about that because in America it's about winning and competition. They are often afraid to back someone who they feel won't win even if they agree with someone else's stances more. I've heard it on this board numerous times. 'My guy's at least gonna win'...'what good is your guy if he doesn't get voted in' and things like that. They fail to realize that this mentality is the precise reason why other guys won't get voted in! What they should say is the other guys won't get voted in because of me. At least that would be more diect and to the point. It's because YOU were afraid to get behind them! And instead you chose to go with a party who has done nothing but pander, make empty promises, get richer off war, sneak stuff into bills to help their special interest buddies and then smile in your face, saying how they are soooooo against all that and are doing all they can to stop this...just bare with them. Frankly, I think we've gave them enough of our time, money and chances. And what have they done with it? Look around...not too damn much...mediocre at best, corrupt and flat out lying at the worst.
And it's not just you guys, conservatives support the Republican party because they know that the government has been ineffectual and believe Republicans when they pretend to be for 'less government'. They fail to realize that these guys are just as much to blame for the bloated govt as their Democratic counterparts. They want to blame all the woes on the Democrats. If cons can't see through this rhetoric of being so critical of big government, while one, being a part of it and two, expanding it even more, then they really need to wake up. The funny thing is, most of the conservatives on this board have. You'll hardly see any of them praising McCain. They have realized that these guys are corrupt and are purposefully expanding the same govt that they claim to dislike so much to line their pockets and the pockets of their special interest buddies. They have started to understand that the rhetoric isn't adding up to what these guys are doing in office. Maybe this awakening isn't wide spread but it is what I'm getting from my conservative friends here on this board and it is hopeful because it's a start.
The thing that bugs me the most is that both groups will tell you how corrupt our govt is and the opposing parties is. But each new election year, the majority goes out and supports a broken system anyway...like this time it's going to be so different. And it NEVER is! The libs pulled away and distanced themselves from Clinton after telling us all how he was going to be so different and bring such needed new fresh air into Washington and they gave him 8 years. It is obvious he wasn't much to brag about and was mostly hot air.
The cons have all pulled away from Bush after telling us how he would be so effective and tough on terrorism and how he was such a uniter and strong leader who won't be afraid to get the job done and they gave him 8 years. It's obvious there is no way to win a war on terrorism while committing terrorist acts of aggression on other people. Duh! That's what creates terrorists in the first place, geniuses! It's now obvious what was really important was securing Iraq's oil resources and lining the pockets of his cronies and special interests. It's obvious the hype over Bush circa first term and 04/05 was bullshit and nothing but hot air.
My question is, we knew even before the last 15 years, that this current system wasn't working for us and that these two parties where a lot alike and not doing their job represnting our needs but we went along anyway and what do we have to show for it? Have we became this great nation like they promised us we would? Have we seen all the things happen that they so proudly sold themselves to us with? Have all the problems they claimed they would resolve been fixed or grown worse? Could we have not choosen more wisely and told these two parties thanks but no thanks...we've given you a chance but you've continued to fail so it only makes sense for us to now look for a solution elsewhere and saved ourselves the trouble and crippling/crumbling of our nation that we have endured the last 15 years?! Could we not learn from our past mistakes? How are these new guys going to be any different when their records show so much that looks very familiar to the problems we've already been experiencing with our past elected officials? When will be the year when we tell them enough is enough and finally move on?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Misinformed or just not informed?
There are plenty of people who are trying to make a difference, who are offering important information. This is just one guy who is giving an example.
An example of how it happened in Germany, he's showing people what can happen when you don't resist. It's an example, not a comparison. He's not saying America is nazi Germany.
And when you read some of the comments here, I'd say it's a very good communication. Americans seem to think it cannot happen. Why not? No one has anwered why it cannot happen.
And it think using the holocaust as an example is a good way of showing people what can happen if they don't stand up and remain inactive.
But no one wants to hear that, in fact they're rather focus on how America isn't nazi Germany (great observation people!). They completely miss the point of the example, though the point is extremely easy to get.
The thing is with the attitude most people show here, the US would be a perfect target for oppression. Indifference, egotistical and not informed.
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the evil of nazi germany was more then the holocaust... the militarization of their society and destruction of europe in pursuit of power and military dominance laid an entore continent to waste... and yes, most germans, or germany as a whole gleefuly cheered this on
they sure as hell didnt stop it
one of the things that gets lost whenever people talk about the nazis and hitler is the actual war and destruction. most focus on the holocaust, for good reason. but please dont forget the nazi war machine and the massive destruction it caused, with the german populations blessing
And what were they really supposed to do? By this point the Nazi party had all the power, strength, guns, and more importantly the will to do anything to protect that.
You really think that people would be just allowed to speak out and protest the Nazi regime over the camps? They would be rounded up and shot or sent their themselves.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I know what you mean, and I agree for a big part but to me it just sounds a little too black and white.
Their war machine also meant the death of millions of Germans, I doubt many Germans were in a state of glee when their family members were being killed everywhere.
Hitler also did many good things for Germany. People cheered this on. Hitler gave the Germans their identity back, which they lost after WWI. People cheered this on. He created jobs, which the people also thought was a good thing. All of these things made Hitler popular, he even gave them a group of people to blame for their problems (we all know how people look for someone to blame in difficult times), again think about what Germany was like in the 30s, they had lost WWI and had to pay lots of reparations, they lost land to neighbouring countries, the economic depression, the threat of communism. The nazi party gave them a promise. They gave the Germans their identity back.
Look at what happened after 9/11, I don't know whether this is true because I don't live in the States but quite a few people have told me that after 9/11 you saw a lot more flags, a lot of bumper stickers that said "one nation under god", "god bless America"... People suffered a huge loss and they looked for something to hold on to. It must be comforting to know that when you're under attack people show their support, these people all said "we love our country and we're going to stick together and fight together." People need support.
The nazi party used Germany's identity crisis to gain power and support. Then there was of course the Reichstagsbrand, which again was used to gain support and power. It was an attack on Germany, on the German people, it was an attack on the "hope for a better future". Germans were afraid and angry and thus easily manipulated. This was done deliberately (of course no one would have believed this at the time.)
So yes, these people did indeed agree with protecting Germany and reclaiming what was theirs. Does that mean they cheered for the systematical liquidation of millions of people. I don't know.
Also, during this gradual process of propaganda people did see what was happening, people did speak up... but some of them were shot dead in the streets (and were later described as enemies of the state, as criminals, as terrorists in the media), others were transported to camps.
I imagine this has a great impact on people. You see people you agree with speaking the truth, standing up against tyranny and injustice but they are shot dead in cold blood, then it is either covered up or distorted. A father might think twice about going into the streets with a message that got others killed. Lots of Germans hid Jews later on, helped Jews escape etc. They did their part and risked their lives. A lot of things happened underground, most things anyway because of fear. Could they have done more? Again, I don't know.
How do you stop a machine that has a monopoly on truth? That controls everything you read and see?
And that's the whole point of this thread, I guess. We have to resist now before we find ourselves in a position where protesting means prison or worse death and where protest under any form is considered "terrorism" and where all dissidents are "enemy combatants." And people actually believe it.
So anyway, when you say they cheered it on or they didn't do anything to stop it, I disagree because to me it has a lot of grey areas. It sounds like all Germans were nazis and they all wanted to see millions of jews killed, which is not the case.
But I do agree to some extent. They didn't do anything (the point of the whole thread) and it led to a series of horrible events. They didn't do anything because they couldn't but they didn't do anything when they could. If that makes any sense.
Also, when I talk or think about Hitler and the nazis, I mostly think about the war and not the holocaust for the simple reason that we (where I live) were occupied and the fact that my grandfather died because of that war. The war affected the people here, and there are still traces of it everywhere.
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I think the way he communicated isn't nearly as effective as it should be. There is nothing going on now, that is effecting the majority of Americans, that would lead them to take his example seriously. They aren't jumping on board cause they don't feel that this is a possibility right now.
I'm saying by more effective and show talk to us about the problem, how it's effecting us now, and tomorrow in a way that will get people to be motivated to join the fight.
Also, I don't think the U S is a perfect target for opression, etc...to the extent of that of what happened in Germany. We'll stand up and fight, even if it's not until the last possible second. We'll pay dearly for waiting so long, but we'll take our country back.
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one thing I think about in regards to nazis and Germany is the time from the end of WWI to the start of WWII. That wasn't black and white either, and that's the time that somewhat fits into the point he was making, which was over symplified. A lot happened, was already in place, etc... and the U S isn't no were near having those symptoms.
How the Nazis came to power is a part of history that needs more attention.
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and perpetuate retribution
we still pretend our actions have not caused the deaths of a million Iraqi, and injured and displaced many times more..
we look so much like Nazi's, but more shameful because we had their example to guard against..
we are so far past enough it is dizzying.
Abu, I'm starting to understand your method of resistance more than you know.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
the same way the people who are elected in to our gov't come into power...lying to the people, promising them this and that and doing the opposite and getting the people to believe their bullshit.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
maybe we've already came to that?
from Knight Ridder Washington Bureau
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-15606053_ITM
ACLU tries to force Pentagon to turn over records on peace groups.
Byline: Drew Brown
WASHINGTON _ A civil rights group sued the Defense Department on Wednesday in an effort to force the Pentagon to turn over information it's collected on peace groups and antiwar activists under a controversial program designed to track terrorists.
The lawsuit, filed in Philadelphia by the American Civil Liberties Union, asks the Defense Department to produce records it's collected under its Threat and Local Observation Notice program. Former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz started TALON in 2003 to track groups and individuals with possible links to terrorists and others who might pose a threat to Defense Department installations and personnel.
ACLU officials say the program has been wrongfully extended to monitor peace groups who were doing nothing more than expressing their views.
"The U.S. military should not be in the business of maintaining secret databases about lawful First Amendment activities," ACLU attorney Ben Wizner said. "It's an abuse of power and an abuse of trust for the military to play any role in monitoring critics of administration policies."
Lt. Col. Brian Maka, a Pentagon spokesman, said it would be inappropriate to comment on ongoing litigation.
TALON was based on an earlier Air Force project launched in 2002 known as "Eagle Eyes," under which military personnel were encouraged to report suspicious activity.
The ACLU said it sued after the Pentagon refused to comply with a Freedom of Information Act request seeking information it had collected on the ACLU, the American Friends Service Committee, Greenpeace, Veterans for Peace, United for Peace and Justice, and 26 other groups and activists
ACLU affiliates in Florida, Georgia, Rhode Island, Maine, Pennsylvania and Washington state have joined in the lawsuit.
The groups argue that organizations and people monitored by the Pentagon have a right to know what information has been collected about them. The lawsuit seeks to determine whether that information has been shared or will be shared with other federal agencies.
Steven Aftergood, the director of the Federation of American Scientists' Project on Government Secrecy, said the ACLU lawsuit probably would be an uphill battle.
"The courts tend to be deferential to government agencies on issues of national security," he said.
But there are exceptions, and sometimes there's a middle ground under which government agencies will release sensitive information, Aftergood said.
"Sometimes a lawsuit is necessary to get a serious response from the government," he said. "But only rarely is a judge going to force an agency to disclose records it doesn't want to disclose."
(EDITORS: STORY CAN END HERE)
News stories about the secret program prompted the Defense Department last December to order a review of TALON to see whether it complied with Pentagon regulations and U.S. law. The review also was supposed to determine whether some records and information had been stored improperly in the program's database.
Maka said he couldn't comment on whether the review had been completed because of the lawsuit.
Aftergood said the biggest problems with TALON were a lack of oversight and improper collection of information on U.S. citizens.
"Certainly, the Pentagon needs to be alert against threats against its facilities," he said. "But they also need to comply with the law and respect the constitutional rights of U.S. citizens."
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=14702
From 2003 to 2007, an unknown number of them made it into the Pentagon's "Threat and Local Observation Notice" system (TALON), a secretive domestic spying program ostensibly designed to track direct "potential terrorist threats" to the Department of Defense itself. Last year, via Freedom of Information Act requests, the ACLU uncovered at least 186 specific TALON reports on "anti-military protests" in the U.S. -- some listed as "credible threats" --- from student groups at the University of California-Santa Cruz, State University of New York, Georgia State University, and New Mexico State University, among other campuses.
At more than a dozen universities and colleges, police officers now double as full-time FBI agents and, according to the Campus Law Enforcement Journal, serve on many of the nation's 100 Joint Terrorism Task Forces. These dual-purpose officer-agents have knocked on student activists' doors from North Carolina State to the University of Colorado and, in one case, interrogated an Iraqi-born professor at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst about his antiwar views.
4. Mine student records: Student records have, in recent years, been opened up to all manner of data mining for purposes of investigation, recruitment, or just all-purpose tracking. From 2001 to 2006, in an operation code-named "Project Strike Back," the Department of Education teamed up with the FBI to scour the records of the 14 million students who applied for federal financial aid each year. The objective? "To identify potential people of interest," explained an FBI spokesperson cryptically, especially those linked to "potential terrorist activity."
Strike Back was quietly discontinued in June 2006, days after students at Northwestern University blew its cover. But just one month later, the Education Department's Commission on the Future of Higher Education, in a much-criticized preliminary report, recommended the creation of a federal "unit record" database that would track the activities and studies of college students nationwide. The Department's Institute of Education Sciences has developed a prototype for such a national database.
It's not a secret that the Pentagon, for its part, hopes to turn campuses into recruitment centers for its overstretched, overstressed forces. In fact, the Department of Defense (DoD) has built its own database for just this purpose. Known as Joint Advertising Market Research and Studies, this program now tracks 30 million young people, ages 16 to 25. According to a Pentagon spokesperson, the DoD has partnered with private marketing and data mining firms, which, in turn, sell the government reams of information on students and other potential recruits.
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
a defeatist cynic?
that leads to zero progress, no thanks
You're right, people don't feel like it is a possibility right now. Key words being; right now. Although plenty of people disagree with a lot of actions by the government, or policies, or laws etc.
So what is it that keeps them from speaking up? Comfort maybe? They're not directly affected. Or maybe that saying "ignorance is bliss" does hold some truth?
I think plenty of people know what can happen, a simple reminder should be enough to stir something within them. My grandfather used to say people didn't appreciate their lives enough. He was right.
If people don't know what can happen, then I think his example isn't a bad one. If people don't know, you can only explain it to them. That's what he did, using a real example. His message is valuable. It illustrates the problem perfectly; it's a worst case scenario.
Anyway, I do agree with you to some extent. But there are plenty of intelligible and intelligent people pointing out the problems we're facing today. People who are able to look at the problems objectively.
This video is not the voice of an entire group of people.
Also, I think it's great you're willing to resist. I just don't understand why you'd wait (this is a generic you, because I do believe most people don't want oppression).
And I don't see a nazi-like Germany happening either. But I do believe we, the world, are slowly heading towards a less free world. It seems that things are getting progressively more fucked up.
We live in a paradox. We're in the middle of this huge desert we call freedom, and every day the horizon is a little less far, but the movement is barely noticeable.
These little changes, these law, acts, policies seems to affect no one, but they do. And their existance has opened a door. edit: Just read Kabong's post.
naděje umírá poslední
no progress is exactly what a vote for any of the 3 corporate candidates will bring, no thanks
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Progress? We haven't had progress in years... pretending only lets it continue.
We are still absolutely ignorant in dealing with other countries... our solution to problems is still drop bombs... Progress??
We can't play along! The television shapes the thoughts of the masses... and the televison's greatest draw is how it can be used as a decepting way and getting ahead - financially and politically..
progress???
please... we have given up long ago.. and any effort to pretend differently is another straw on our back...
.like he said. a true defeatist cynic..
oh I am quite sure you can get millions to agree with that... those that don't want to make things right, just want to keep things so they can take.. We have a horrific record of working well together and are led my a man that created Iraq - he can stay in power just say - oh that was a mistake..
I am not a cynic at all.. I only ask that we look at things as they are - not be afraid to recognize areas requiring improvement..
it has become common to say it is unpatriotic to critize the United States... how sick is that. do I not point out areas of improvement my children need.
are you afraid someone is listening.. are you happy to be better than Saddam... and proud to have already achieved that?
$5.00 a gallon gas?
lack of food in the stores?
lack of clean water/air?
high food prices? (the rioting has begun in certain areas of the world)
a massive power outage?
your rights and/or liberties being taken away?
marshall law?
will it take a disruption in YOUR daily life, before YOU will do SOMETHING, ANYTHING?
disclaimer, i am NOT directing these questions to any ONE person posting here, i'm just asking in general.......what would it take?
perhaps if more people were not cynical defeatists that are too cool to vote actually voted we would not have had this war monger in office the past 8 years...
I voted for the one guy with a chance to beat him. But America wanted George W Bush as their president. The reason for that is not being addressed.
Television may be the number one reason.