What's it going to take before YOU decide to resist?

my2hands

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLHrm-cplcU

he should have "resisted" the urge to wear that purple shirt and tie combo

my2hands

Im still here wrote:

Martial Law will be the Shot heard around the World

i dont see that happening...

my2hands

for the record... i understand the point of the speaker... his point is that things can happen gardually and there may not be an exact event that triggers events...

the most interesting part of the holocaust i have studied was the actual german people and how this was all allowed to happen, as they mostly cheered it on.


i do not think we are any where close to something that tragic, and i do not like when people use such extremes to make a poinjt because it immediately turns most away since it is obviously over the top. but i do understand the message.

i think a better point to make is that we (USA) currently have the global military dominance, presence, and arsenal Hitler only dreamed of... and that we clearly represent the greatest threat to world stablility, peace, and the human species survival long term... one can only imagine the military and weaponry advances of the next 300 years... unfortunately the wepaons are advancing much quicker then the species controlling them... and that is a major problem for the planet as a whole moving into the future

Abookamongstthemany

my2hands wrote:

for the record... i understand the point of the speaker... his point is that things can happen gardually and there may not be an exact event that triggers events...

the most interesting part of the holocaust i have studied was the actual german people and how this was all allowed to happen, as they mostly cheered it on.


i do not think we are any where close to something that tragic, and i do not like when people use such extremes to make a poinjt because it immediately turns most away since it is obviously over the top. but i do understand the message.

i think a better point to make is that we (USA) currently have the global military dominance, presence, and arsenal Hitler only dreamed of... and that we clearly represent the greatest threat to world stablility, peace, and the human species survival long term... one can only imagine the military and weaponry advances of the next 300 years... unfortunately the wepaons are advancing much quicker then the species controlling them... and that is a major problem for the planet as a whole moving into the future

But that doesn't make the point that he was going for.

He thinks we are allowing too much abuse of power in our govt without resisting it and drawing a line...so do I. As citizens in a democracy, we are not doing our job. He showed how the Nazis were able to continue abusing power to the extreme of genocide without any uprising from the people. It's a perfect example to reflect on because I'm sure the jews didn't see this coming either...they keep going along, not standing up to these abuses and eventually over a gradual period of worsening, they could no longer do anything to stop the Nazi's because by then they'd lost all their rights and power as citizens living in a democracy. That point is vital to this discussion. People always feel this can't happen to them, not in our country...he gives a perfect example of how it CAN happen and how people will go along with it. So many in this thread don't like the Nazi angle because the Nazi's committed so many horrid acts on the jews and that's not what is happening here. This is true...it's not happening here the way it did there. But that is not the point. The point is if we are allowing the level of abuses in power already...ones that we, ourselves, thought americans would never stand for, what's stopping them from expanding their power even further? Why should they stop at the abuses we've already listed if no one is even worried about resisting those? If we are fine with what our govt is doing now and haven't stood up to stop them then where is this imaginary line in which we will have finally had enough? The jews didn't have one it seems, will we?

beachdweller

using Nazi Germany to make this point is ridiculous. It turns people off. Talk to the problems of today, point them out, what should we do, etc...? Resist, terrible word for this point...take action, what can we do, what should we do?

If you can't communicate with people that don't share your view, then your view is pointless. I'm so tired of everyone using extreme, fearfull, and/or other examples that don't do what we need: gather more support for change.

There are plenty of points that Ron Paul, Nadar, Kicinich supportors can come together on, though they've have many they don't. They should be able to gain other liberals and moderates on issues also, but if you are turning them off before they have a chance to listen, what's the point?

I understand the point in the clip, but it's use of Nazi Germany as a parallel was ridiculous and unnecessary. It's like Michael Moore, his films cater to the converted, and should target the middle in my opinion. Yes, keep his premise, but sell it to those that didn't agree before they watched. Doesn't this make sense?

Collin

my2hands wrote:

the most interesting part of the holocaust i have studied was the actual german people and how this was all allowed to happen, as they mostly cheered it on.

I think you're wrong about this. A lot of Germans didn't know what truly went on in those camps, though they probably knew it wasn't pretty. But please do show me I'm wrong and present a piece of evidence which shows "they mostly cheered it on."

Also, bear in mind that those who did know about the atrocities or anyone for that matter could immediately be labelled as an enemy of the state and be shipped to camps themselves or be killed.

That's why it's important we act now. We should resist now before any act of resistance is labelled "terrorism" and people become too scared to act.

We need to show our governments (because this isn't just an American thing, or a temporary thing either) that we won't stand oppression, corruption and abuse. We, as a people, need to let the people we elect know that they work for us. We should stand up together and put aside our differences to let the leaders of the world know we won't tolerate violation of rights, more and more restrictions on fundamental freedoms, abuse and oppression... This isn't a left/right issue, this is something we should all agree on because it can and will affect us all.

Also, I've noticed that a lot of people comment on the video and say it won't happen, and the nazi comparison is stupid... but who's actually answered the question:

What's it going to take before you decide to resist?

Seriously, think about it and answer that question, where would you draw the line? When will you say, this is wrong and we need to act?

callen

Collin wrote:

I understand what you're saying. But I disagree, not entirely with your opinion but I disagree with the way you present abook's opinion or point of view.

Abook asked a very good question. When will people finally resist this corruption? When will we (not just Americans) stand up to our governments? When will we hold our officials accountable for their actions?

I think most people here disagree with a lot of things happening, with certain policies etc. But they don't act. Most people don't act. These little things, these small changes don't really affect the average Joe but they can. So already the government has more power over you, within the law.

I'm not saying the US is turning into a fascist state or will automatically become one in the future, but when people trust their government completely, let their government wiretap... when they don't even care about Habeas corpus being suspended, I think the citizens are well on their way to become oppressed people.

But these thing happen slowly. Step by step, and if you look at it objectively, you'll see there have already been taken a few steps in the wrong direction.

No one is saying America will turn into a fascist state over night. But they're pointing out how the land of the free is becoming less and less free. All, of course, to protect your freedoms...

And no, you don't have a serial number tattooed on your arm and you can still go to your church. So, what's your point. The majority of Germans didn't have a number tattooed on their arms and they could go to church too.

I guess I can only conclude from your answers (not yours specifically) that you'll only act when it's too late. The point is, I think, that oppression is something that can come slowly and unexpectedly.

They pass these laws because they want to fight America's enemies. But what if your state starts to see you as an enemy (and people influenced by media, for example, agree with the gov't)?

I know I'm sort of rambling here, just writing down my thoughts... so sorry if it's a bit incoherent.

Also, Hitler had a lot of support. He didn't say I'm going to kill millions of people, and you'll live in a dictatorship. He promised wealth when people were struggling, he gave people jobs, things were getting better... but there was of course something rotten in Germany; the Jews (look at the status of illegal immigrants, and before you all go crazy, I'm not saying illegal immigrant have the same status as jews had in nazi Germany).
It could very well be that the oppressor is someone you agree with, or someone a very large group of people agrees with. If the US economy keeps getting worse, so bad it would affect not only the poor but almost everyone and a person promises wealth and jobs, and he actually delivers... he'd get support.

What I'm trying to say is, and I've said it before, it's foolish, ignorant and arrogant to think you cannot be oppressed. What exactly would prevent it from happening? Because this is the question Abook is asking.

What will make you stand up? What will make you fight? I think she just wants to know if you're not fighting it now, when will you do it and for what reasons?

Believing you are *special* and your superior nation cannot turn into a fascist state is the first mistake, I'd say. I'm not saying you should actually think it's happening or that it will happen. But it can happen. And that's why people need to hold their government accountable for their actions, imo. That's why I think it's important to speak up when our freedoms are being taken away slowly. And not just our freedoms, but everyone's. I think we should stand up against our government when it disrespects human rights (no matter who the subject is).

We all have a different idea of what a free, democratic state should be like... but I believe we agree on a few things, like the human rights. Allowing the patriot act, suspension of habeas corpus, torture, Guantánamo is the same as allowing your right and freedoms to be restricted, or even taken away.

I personally don't think we'll see a reign like Hitler's soon, but we are losing our freedom, and we're letting it happen. Governments are too much involved in our every day lives...

...

Damn, long post

Really cool post

Think everyone should read 1984 every decade...

Abookamongstthemany

beachdweller wrote:

using Nazi Germany to make this point is ridiculous. It turns people off. Talk to the problems of today, point them out, what should we do, etc...? Resist, terrible word for this point...take action, what can we do, what should we do?

If you can't communicate with people that don't share your view, then your view is pointless. I'm so tired of everyone using extreme, fearfull, and/or other examples that don't do what we need: gather more support for change.

There are plenty of points that Ron Paul, Nadar, Kicinich supportors can come together on, though they've have many they don't. They should be able to gain other liberals and moderates on issues also, but if you are turning them off before they have a chance to listen, what's the point?

I understand the point in the clip, but it's use of Nazi Germany as a parallel was ridiculous and unnecessary. It's like Michael Moore, his films cater to the converted, and should target the middle in my opinion. Yes, keep his premise, but sell it to those that didn't agree before they watched. Doesn't this make sense?

'It turns people off'??? No shit, so does most things that involve placing blame on themselves, taking responsibility and hearing things they don't want to. How is it ridiculous? Just because you have deemed it so? How is using an example of a people not resisting to the point of their own genocide taking place not a perfect example to use when pointing out society's refusal to stand up for itself? That would be the best case to show this happening...so it only makes sense to use that example. What would be a better example to make this point? There is none.

Are we not supposed to teach about the Holocaust because it's too extreme? Of course not. And there's nothing wrong with using it here. Just like when people make the case for Global Warming, they point out the worst cases of it afftecting our planet. And they should because it's very important and can't contiue to be ignored, neither can this. That's how you get your point across to show how bad it can get. The only parallel drawn was the inaction not the circumstances. The inaction is what we have to address here. If he claimed we were like Nazi Germany then you'd have a point but he didn't. He posed a questioned based on our history of inaction as a country and sited a great example of how bad this kind of uninvolved citizenry who doesn't hold their govt accountable CAN get. And if that happens to frighten you, it's only because you know we are doing nothing here and stand to lose a lot more freedom if this trend keeps up. I mean, what or who is stopping them?? People SHOULD be worried about it...it's not going to just go away with happy thoughts and avoidance of the problem.


and please address my points instead of another vague post on how the comparison is ridiculous(not just you) without mentioning a single point I posted saying otherwise.

If we're going to debate this, you're supposed to address my points with a counter point...not just keep typing the same argument over and over again without answering what has been in my posts refuting that.

Abookamongstthemany

callen wrote:

Really cool post

Think everyone should read 1984 every decade...

Collin's post was excellent. I hope more people address what he said in it. He got the point of the video and this thread perfectly, looked at it objectively without the reactionary response of 'How dare evil nazis be mentioned in the same breath with the US!?' Kudos to him!

beachdweller

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

How is it ridiculous? Just because you have deemed it so? How is using an example of a people not resisting to the point of their own genocide taking place not a perfect example to use when pointing out society's refusal to stand up for itself? That would be the best case to show this happening...so it only makes sense to use that example. What would be a better example to make this point? There is none.

it doesn't speak to those that don't already agree? making points directly about what constitutional rights we've lost and/or abuses that need to be addressed and how it effects us now is a better argument.

Germany was still a mess and in massive turmoil from WWI. Jews were blamed for Germanies loss in WWI. There was a base hatred there, and it was manipulated. Germanies government, was not ours, their constitution wasn't ours.

saying if we don't do this, we'll be nazi germany doesn't resonate with even a large majority. I agree with what's wrong, and we need to take action, but his argument was a turn-off. Made me think of a Karl Rove type argument style that Bush or Cheney might use. It reminds me of the last 7 years.

It's not a good communication of an important issue IMO.

Collin

beachdweller wrote:

saying if we don't do this, we'll be nazi germany

Ah, I see, that's the problem. He's not saying that at all. He's saying: this is what can happen. Make damn sure it doesn't happen again.

The holocaust is the extreme result of inaction, but I personally won't sit around and wait to speak up and stand up until they start killing people systematically by the millions. Wiretapping is enough for me, and that's just one example.

So you can either keep debating how the US isn't 1930s Germany or you can address the actual point and anwer the question.

Do you agree with wiretapping, torture, Guantánamo and so on? If not, what are you doing about it?

Abookamongstthemany

beachdweller wrote:

it doesn't speak to those that don't already agree? making points directly about what constitutional rights we've lost and/or abuses that need to be addressed and how it effects us now is a better argument.

Germany was still a mess and in massive turmoil from WWI. Jews were blamed for Germanies loss in WWI. There was a base hatred there, and it was manipulated. Germanies government, was not ours, their constitution wasn't ours.

saying if we don't do this, we'll be nazi germany doesn't resonate with even a large majority. I agree with what's wrong, and we need to take action, but his argument was a turn-off. Made me think of a Karl Rove type argument style that Bush or Cheney might use. It reminds me of the last 7 years.

It's not a good communication of an important issue IMO.

It was good communcation because people always say and think this can't happen here and he shows how it can and did happen to people who thought the exact same thing!!

For the millionth time, he didn't say if we don't do this, we''ll end up like Nazi Germany! He showed Nazi Germany as an example of not rising up. Did they not rise up when the govt abused it's power?? Yes. Did they end up with a very bad situation because of that?? Yes. See how that makes his point yet?

His point: Stand up against the govt's abuse of power. It will get worse if you don't. Nothing is stopping them from taking more from you. You don't believe me or think it can happen to you??...Here's proof it can happen and just how easy it was for them to do it.


When you're making a case, you're supposed to show evidence. And what better evidence is there of the fallback of abuse of power and a submissive population than Nazi Germany? There is none. Most people refer to this as 'a great example of this would be....'

beachdweller

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

'It turns people off'??? No shit, so does most things that involve placing blame on themselves, taking responsibility and hearing things they don't want to. this has nothing to do with why it turns people off. I don't think anyone is thinking "oh, it's my fault". It's about talking to people that are not on board in a way that they can take serious. Talk about how it effects them now, and how that ties to and effects them. If his argument is soooo effective in it's current state, why is it such an obscure one? It's an important point, but I don't think it's made effectively.

Are we not supposed to teach about the Holocaust because it's too extreme? really, because Bush administration abused it's constitutional authority, which most Americans aren't even aware of what authority he should or should not have, bring the Holocause into the mix, and we'll all jump on the bandwagon, sorry, not being it, but maybe I'll try it out on a few friends and see what happens Of course not. And there's nothing wrong with using it here. Just like when people make the case for Global Warming, they point out the worst cases of it afftecting our planet.yeah, but Global Warming has major quantifiable symptoms effecting people everyday, whether that's the true cause (I think it is, but not every extreme weather event is), it's a not a stretch, and I think the thought of being to late to effect change on global warming is far more effective than in regards to the loss of rights. And they should because it's very important and can't contiue to be ignored, neither can this. That's how you get your point across to show how bad it can get. The only parallel drawn was the inaction not the circumstances. The inaction is what we have to address here. If he claimed we were like Nazi Germany then you'd have a point but he didn't. He posed a questioned based on our history of inaction as a country and sited a great example of how bad this kind of uninvolved citizenry who doesn't hold their govt accountable CAN getRight, what can, but this isn't an overnight problem, and we aren't at a point of no return, so the sense of urgency isn't there. Hense the approach he took isn't effective IMO. A big problem is the weak government and civics education in public schools. Sure would make it easier to get people on board if they understood it better, but I still think his approach turns people off, and it's not because they blame themselves And if that happens to frighten you, it's only because you know we are doing nothing here and stand to lose a lot more freedom if this trend keeps up. I mean, what or who is stopping them?? People SHOULD be worried about it...it's not going to just go away with happy thoughts and avoidance of the problem.yeah, I'm not scared, the Euro is strong and I had a great time living there, that being said, though it didn't need to be, yes I understand the importance, I've never said anything about happy thoughts or avoidance, my point is communicating more effectively. There are no symptoms or problems from this issue that are effecting most Americans on a day to day basis. So the example with Germany doesn't work. What is this issue doing now to effect us? How will it effect us tomorrow? This is a more effective approach. They can relate. As bad as the Holocause and Nazi Germany has been taught in History, other than bad things happened, how it came to be has been taught better by the History channel than history class. Does this make more sense?

quote]

this kind of communication has been one of the major reasons change has eluded us. What does the example to Germany mean to a 20 or 30 something? How do you get the majority to listen? Don't you want your argument to draw them in with something that effects them now, that they can relate to in their lives? In this time of massive attention deficit you need to effect the now don't you?

beachdweller

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

It was good communcation because people always say and think this can't happen here and he shows how it can and did happen to people who thought the exact same thing!!I don't think so, that's over simplifying it. We are so different, the situation isn't even close, it's a far fetched notion that most people won't even think twice about. So if you are turning people off, before they get your point, how is that a good communication? Is there a chance, yes, but the evidence doesn't warrant the exaggeration at this time if your point is to get as many people as possible to listen. Which if you want change should be the goal.

His point: Stand up against the govt's abuse of power. It will get worse if you don't. Nothing is stopping them from taking more from you. You don't believe me or think it can happen to you??...Here's proof it can happen and just how easy it was for them to do it.my point, his point will not reach enough people for any change to happen, cause the way he made it will keep them from listening


When you're making a case, you're supposed to show evidence. And what better evidence is there of the fallback of abuse of power and a submissive population than Nazi Germany? There is none. Most people refer to this as 'a great example of this would be....'no argument here, but there is evidence that can be used that will resonate with us now, and tomorrow that people will listen to, and would work in gaining far more support, than with what he used IMO

I don't care about the sensitivity around the Holocause or Nazis. It's about communcating a point of view to as many peopls as possible to expand the support on the issue. If you lose them before they've got your point, what's the purpose?

Abookamongstthemany

beachdweller wrote:

I don't care about the sensitivity around the Holocause or Nazis. It's about communcating a point of view to as many peopls as possible to expand the support on the issue. If you lose them before they've got your point, what's the purpose?

The majority aren't listening to this message with or without this example so your point is moot. Everyone wants to hear the stuff that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside not so much about the stuff where they are to blame and have responsibilty in. 'Ewww...turned off. Give me some more of that empty hope and change rhetoric and the latest about how much weight Britany Spears has gained!' That makes me feel better about me.'

And the ones of you here that shut out the point of the video and thread to dismiss it wholly over him using Nazi's as an example (even though they fit perfectly into what he was saying) know that I have accused you of following along and playing a rigged game instead of stand up against our corrupted govt. It's easy to see how supporters of the Democratic party wouldn't want to address the point and find anyway to dismiss it (even though it's clear you know what the guy is saying and admit it's a problem) because you are allowing this abuses to continue through supporting the types that make it happen

beachdweller

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

The majority aren't listening to this message with or without this example so your point is moot. Everyone wants to hear the stuff that makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside not so much about the stuff where they are to blame and have responsibilty in. 'Ewww...turned off. Give me some more of that empty hope and change rhetoric and the latest about how much weight Britany Spears has gained!' That makes me feel better about me.'

And the ones of you here that shut out the point of the video and thread to dismiss it wholly over him using Nazi's as an example (even though they fit perfectly into what he was saying) know that I have accused you of following along and playing a rigged game instead of stand up against our corrupted govt. It's easy to see how supporters of the Democratic party wouldn't want to address the point and find anyway to dismiss it (even though it's clear you know what the guy is saying and admit it's a problem) because you are allowing this abuses to continue through supporting the types that make it happen

good luck with that, sure is easy to throw blame at people, and put generalizations on why they do what they do or don't do. Even make excuses for those that can't communicate with more people about important points without falling into the same game as those that use abusive rhetoric in the media.

as for your rhetoric about hope and change, it's more effective than anything you've stated in this thread.

Obama has said that people will make the difference, not Washinton alone, that we will have to sacrifice. That's an important part of making a difference, actually he has several strong things going for him: people listen to him, are challenged and motivated by him, are getting involved, and their involvement means more people are speaking about issues, whether they agree with him or not. I doubt most people are blindly for anything and everything Obama.

disagree that's fine, but this whole warm and fuzzy thing you think people believe in, this idea that they purposely ignore that which is "their" fault (which I'm sure is really helpful to tell people), I doubt that's an accurate account of why people aren't involved more. It's not helpful that people that follow Nadar are sometimes written off as left wing nuts. Everyone has different reasons for everything they do, this country is diverse in it's make up. If anything, it's far closer to the truth that we are ignorant to what doesn't effect us directly in our daily lives, or we are tragically misinformed as a nation.

callen

/

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Collin's post was excellent. I hope more people address what he said in it. He got the point of the video and this thread perfectly, looked at it objectively without the reactionary response of 'How dare evil nazis be mentioned in the same breath with the US!?' Kudos to him!

You must though understand and be sympathetic to the offense taken
.......from childhood we've been subjected to national anthems, pledging allegiance, god blessing America, Fk...go to a Nascar race.....wondering how long it will be before the attendees will come up with they're own hiel hitler solute prior to the race...
I do though give credit for all those that visit this board....because they tolerate and want to discuss these topics...and thats a really great thing.

Not sure if this has been covered...but the Germans were well educated ....great intellect..yet were still punked.....and this soooo much reminds me of what the cheney clan did in the US after 9/11.

callen

beachdweller wrote:

Obama has said that people will make the difference, not Washinton alone, that we will have to sacrifice. That's an important part of making a difference, actually he has several strong things going for him: people listen to him, are challenged and motivated by him, are getting involved, and their involvement means more people are speaking about issues, whether they agree with him or not. I doubt most people are blindly for anything and everything Obama.

.

Obama turned me off big time last couple weeks.....supporting corporate windfall tax along with interfering in CEO pay......BUT he is yet the closest thing to someone attempting to shoot straight.....I'm though afraid most people can't or don't want to handle the truth and we'll get freakin McCain...

Abookamongstthemany

beachdweller wrote:

good luck with that, sure is easy to throw blame at people, and put generalizations on why they do what they do or don't do. Even make excuses for those that can't communicate with more people about important points without falling into the same game as those that use abusive rhetoric in the media.

There were quite a few here that did get what the video was saying. You act
as if because you didn't like what he had to say, that that will be indicative of what everyone else who views the video will take from it. He did not employ media tactics in his presentation. That's like saying anytime we discuss sensitive topics that may contain graphic images or subject matter..we are sensationalizing. When it was a FACT that Nazi Germany happened and it was due to a submissive population who let their 'elected' govt run away with all the power. There's no getting around that fact or the fact that our rights are also being stripped without any resistance on a large scale. This is not over dramatizing anything...it's just stating facts.

beachdweller wrote:

as for your rhetoric about hope and change, it's more effective than anything you've stated in this thread.

No it's not...it's just a ploy to get you to have faith in your govt again based on nothing but words. What I posted at the very least caused people to think.

beachdweller wrote:

Obama has said that people will make the difference, not Washinton alone, that we will have to sacrifice. That's an important part of making a difference, actually he has several strong things going for him: people listen to him, are challenged and motivated by him, are getting involved, and their involvement means more people are speaking about issues, whether they agree with him or not. I doubt most people are blindly for anything and everything Obama.

He has said 'people will make the difference' while he hasn't made any himself. So rich. He record is telling. He says how 'people will make the difference' while voting for things he tells them he's against in order to gain power. Lead by example much? I guess if we all follow his examples, we can ignore what we believe in in order to get that good paying job at Lockheed Martin. I mean, my one vote or say isn't going to matter anyway and this way I'll be making more money so I can give more to charities and non profits who might be helping those who are suffering...suffering in the first place due to the practices of....you guessed it....Lockheed Martin. Problem solved!!! See how linear thinking works out?

beachdweller wrote:

disagree that's fine, but this whole warm and fuzzy thing you think people believe in, this idea that they purposely ignore that which is "their" fault (which I'm sure is really helpful to tell people), I doubt that's an accurate account of why people aren't involved more. It's not helpful that people that follow Nadar are sometimes written off as left wing nuts. Everyone has different reasons for everything they do, this country is diverse in it's make up. If anything, it's far closer to the truth that we are ignorant to what doesn't effect us directly in our daily lives, or we are tragically misinformed as a nation.

On this I agree.

The liberals support the Democratic Party because they still believe in the government but think it's just the Republicans that are corrupt. They continue to ignore the fact that the Democrats are engaging in the same corrupt activities because every new election year, they buy into a heavily marketed campaign paid for by corporations telling them how this new guy is going to be 'different' is going to bring 'change' and 'set things back the way they should be. They believe this everytime because one, they don't think they have any options (why not?....it could be just as easy for the whole lot of them to back someone who isn't funded by special interests and has a long history of being out there working for them) and two, they ignore all the warning signs pointing to the 'new guy' pulling a lot of the 'old tricks'. They don't want to hear about that because in America it's about winning and competition. They are often afraid to back someone who they feel won't win even if they agree with someone else's stances more. I've heard it on this board numerous times. 'My guy's at least gonna win'...'what good is your guy if he doesn't get voted in' and things like that. They fail to realize that this mentality is the precise reason why other guys won't get voted in! What they should say is the other guys won't get voted in because of me. At least that would be more diect and to the point. It's because YOU were afraid to get behind them! And instead you chose to go with a party who has done nothing but pander, make empty promises, get richer off war, sneak stuff into bills to help their special interest buddies and then smile in your face, saying how they are soooooo against all that and are doing all they can to stop this...just bare with them. Frankly, I think we've gave them enough of our time, money and chances. And what have they done with it? Look around...not too damn much...mediocre at best, corrupt and flat out lying at the worst.


And it's not just you guys, conservatives support the Republican party because they know that the government has been ineffectual and believe Republicans when they pretend to be for 'less government'. They fail to realize that these guys are just as much to blame for the bloated govt as their Democratic counterparts. They want to blame all the woes on the Democrats. If cons can't see through this rhetoric of being so critical of big government, while one, being a part of it and two, expanding it even more, then they really need to wake up. The funny thing is, most of the conservatives on this board have. You'll hardly see any of them praising McCain. They have realized that these guys are corrupt and are purposefully expanding the same govt that they claim to dislike so much to line their pockets and the pockets of their special interest buddies. They have started to understand that the rhetoric isn't adding up to what these guys are doing in office. Maybe this awakening isn't wide spread but it is what I'm getting from my conservative friends here on this board and it is hopeful because it's a start.

The thing that bugs me the most is that both groups will tell you how corrupt our govt is and the opposing parties is. But each new election year, the majority goes out and supports a broken system anyway...like this time it's going to be so different. And it NEVER is! The libs pulled away and distanced themselves from Clinton after telling us all how he was going to be so different and bring such needed new fresh air into Washington and they gave him 8 years. It is obvious he wasn't much to brag about and was mostly hot air.

The cons have all pulled away from Bush after telling us how he would be so effective and tough on terrorism and how he was such a uniter and strong leader who won't be afraid to get the job done and they gave him 8 years. It's obvious there is no way to win a war on terrorism while committing terrorist acts of aggression on other people. Duh! That's what creates terrorists in the first place, geniuses! It's now obvious what was really important was securing Iraq's oil resources and lining the pockets of his cronies and special interests. It's obvious the hype over Bush circa first term and 04/05 was bullshit and nothing but hot air.

My question is, we knew even before the last 15 years, that this current system wasn't working for us and that these two parties where a lot alike and not doing their job represnting our needs but we went along anyway and what do we have to show for it? Have we became this great nation like they promised us we would? Have we seen all the things happen that they so proudly sold themselves to us with? Have all the problems they claimed they would resolve been fixed or grown worse? Could we have not choosen more wisely and told these two parties thanks but no thanks...we've given you a chance but you've continued to fail so it only makes sense for us to now look for a solution elsewhere and saved ourselves the trouble and crippling/crumbling of our nation that we have endured the last 15 years?! Could we not learn from our past mistakes? How are these new guys going to be any different when their records show so much that looks very familiar to the problems we've already been experiencing with our past elected officials? When will be the year when we tell them enough is enough and finally move on?

Collin

beachdweller wrote:

If anything, it's far closer to the truth that we are ignorant to what doesn't effect us directly in our daily lives, or we are tragically misinformed as a nation.

Misinformed or just not informed?

There are plenty of people who are trying to make a difference, who are offering important information. This is just one guy who is giving an example.

An example of how it happened in Germany, he's showing people what can happen when you don't resist. It's an example, not a comparison. He's not saying America is nazi Germany.

And when you read some of the comments here, I'd say it's a very good communication. Americans seem to think it cannot happen. Why not? No one has anwered why it cannot happen.

And it think using the holocaust as an example is a good way of showing people what can happen if they don't stand up and remain inactive.

But no one wants to hear that, in fact they're rather focus on how America isn't nazi Germany (great observation people!). They completely miss the point of the example, though the point is extremely easy to get.

The thing is with the attitude most people show here, the US would be a perfect target for oppression. Indifference, egotistical and not informed.