There's a bunch of opinions from Badnarik out there.
Personally, i think he is a nut job, and it depends on what you believe i guess, as to how much credibility you want to give anything he says.
In relation to 9/11 he thinks that it was obvious the buildings were bought down using pyrotechnics. He is also adament there was no bomb outside the building in the oklahoma city boming, and he leaves Ted Douche Nugent for dead with his stance on gun control. Badnarik feels that widespread gun ownership cuts down on crime, and that the right to own guns is absolutely guaranteed, without exceptions, limitations or qualifications, by the Second Amendment. If he was able, he would repeal all gun-control laws, including any that require gun registration. Get that? No registration. Nut job.
There's a bunch of opinions from Badnarik out there.
Personally, i think he is a nut job, and it depends on what you believe i guess, as to how much credibility you want to give anything he says.
In relation to 9/11 he thinks that it was obvious the buildings were bought down using pyrotechnics. He is also adament there was no bomb outside the building in the oklahoma city boming, and he leaves Ted Douche Nugent for dead with his stance on gun control. Badnarik feels that widespread gun ownership cuts down on crime, and that the right to own guns is absolutely guaranteed, without exceptions, limitations or qualifications, by the Second Amendment. If he was able, he would repeal all gun-control laws, including any that require gun registration. Get that? No registration. Nut job.
Right, he's a libertarian and I certainly don't agree with him on every issue. But I do see where he's coming from on the issue addressed in the video.
I believe 9/11 was an inside job, too. Does that automatically make me a nutjob or discredit everything else I have to say? Of course not, only the simple, closed minded types shut out all views based on one issue. And personally, I find it ignorant to call people who may disagree with you on certain things nutjobs. I don't think the man appeared crazy. He ran on the libertarian ticket for president and seems pretty knowledgeable despite our differing ideologies. I try not to write someone off so easily and actually listen to what they have to say, myself.
I didn't post this to further the libertarian agenda. I posted it to discuss the topic addressed in the video. Any thoughts on that?
We all can find common ground somewhere...so let's try to open up our minds to differing views and work together on the things in which we find ourselves in agreement first...then we can tackle the other stuff.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
If people held their govt accountable and stayed informed about what they are doing with their tax money then they wouldn't be able to abuse their power without losing their jobs.
The average citizen, unfortunately, is spending most of their money on things that are absolutely not helping out their communities.
The government has proven over, and over, and over again that it can't be held accountable. It's time to do something different. Cutting off the funds is the only thing I see working as it keeps the power in the hands of the people.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
i guess answering any of the questions posed to you would be asking too much, eh?
i guess it is easier to call ppl names like paranoid and act like children rather than have a discussion
What questions? And saying people "act like children" is about the same as calling people paranoid, no? Besides, that onion clip made me laugh, so I thought that I would share
I said before, I understand the point that he was trying to make, but as soon as you start making references and comparisons to a situation where 6 million people died, you loose credibility in my mind.
I agree that our government is heading us down the wrong direction little by little, but at the same time in this country, we have term limits, we have elections... no one is changing that.
I just see it as a cyclical thing... in the 40's & 50's our government went nuts and locked up 100,000+ japanese americans, and McCarthyism was out of control, but public sentiment changed, the political climate changed, and our country came out of that. I just don't see the situation that we are in/heading to as anything near that.
I do support Obama in this election, but I am smart enough to know that he won't/can't make most of the changes that he is campaigning for, but I do believe that he can slowly reverse the direction that we are heading.
Electing people like Ron Paul, Kucinich, Nader, etc., while as great as their ideas may be, their changes would never happen either. Our country and government are so entrenched in our ways, that you can't just turn a country around 180 degrees with a quick change in one branch of government. I think it would turn in to the biggest cluster-fuck of a government that we've ever seen.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
trying to make your point by gross exaggeration and false comparisons is INHERENTLY DISHONEST AND HURTS YOUR ARGUMENT! This is what you and people like you can't get through your thick skulls. I would think the reponses you got illustrate my point perfectly .
jesus fucking christ.
I believe 9/11 has an inside job, too. Does that automatically make me a nutjob or discredit everything else I have to say? Of course not, only the simple, closed minded types shut out all views based on one issue. And personally, I find it ignorant to call people who may disagree with you on certain things nutjobs. I don't think the man appeared crazy. He ran on the libertarian ticket for president and seems pretty knowledgeable despite our differing ideologies. I try not to write someone off so easily and actually listen to what they have to say, myself.
I didn't post this to further the libertarian agenda. I posted it to discuss the topic addressed in the video. Any thoughts on that?
We all can find common ground somewhere...so let's try to open up our minds to differing views and work together on the things in which we find ourselves in agreement first...then we can tackle the other stuff.
I'm sorry if you find it ignorant that i referred to him as a nutjob. I happen to think his views that anyone can own a gun with absolutely no exceptions, qualifications, registrations or limitations are downright dangerous.
I assume you also find it ignorant to call people who may disagree with you or others on certain things 'obamaniacs', and that in future you might be just as quick to jump down their throat and publically view your thoughts on that too.
My thoughts on the video?
I give the American people a lot more credit than Badnarik does. We will never allow ourself to be in that situation. We do have elections, and we do have specific terms for our elected officials. We're not seeing elections with one party getting 99% of the vote. And by the way: Hitler was never elected into office. He was appointed by the senile German President who was influenced by his son. You really think something like that would happen here?
The President isn't Hitler; America isn't the Third Reich. That doesn't mean the leaders are always good guys. But they're not in the same psychopathic, criminally insane league as were the Nazi elite.
I agree that our government is heading us down the wrong direction little by little, but at the same time in this country, we have term limits, we have elections... no one is changing that.
That sounds like a contradiction to me. Your government is taking away freedoms, little by little, passing new laws... So little by little your laws, your country and your freedoms are changing.
But no one is changing anything, right?
What I'm trying to say is, imo, it's ignorant to think it cannot happen to you.
That's the whole point of propaganda. Influencing you, making you do things you normally wouldn't do. Making you think things you normally wouldn't think. How many people would have agreed with the Patriot Act ten years ago? Or the suspension of Habeas corpus? The majority would probably have said: "we'll never allow that". But it happens, slowly, like you said, little by little.
The US has the basics to form a dictatorship, imo. A controlled media, crashing economy, pride, and enemies or people to blame. It also has an invisible enemy called terrorism, which is a great way to instill fear.
Also, we might "recognize" what happened in Germany, but you don't actually think things would go the exact same way.
I'm sorry if you find it ignorant that i referred to him as a nutjob. I happen to think his views that anyone can own a gun with absolutely no exceptions, qualifications, registrations or limitations are downright dangerous.
I assume you also find it ignorant to call people who may disagree with you or others on certain things 'obamaniacs', and that in future you might be just as quick to jump down their throat and publically view your thoughts on that too.
My thoughts on the video?
I give the American people a lot more credit than Badnarik does. We will never allow ourself to be in that situation. We do have elections, and we do have specific terms for our elected officials. We're not seeing elections with one party getting 99% of the vote. And by the way: Hitler was never elected into office. He was appointed by the senile German President who was influenced by his son. You really think something like that would happen here?
The President isn't Hitler; America isn't the Third Reich. That doesn't mean the leaders are always good guys. But they're not in the same psychopathic, criminally insane league as were the Nazi elite.
no one is arguing about gun control, we are discussing the points he made in the video, which i guess i missed the part where he spoke about guns...? could you please tell me what time in the video clip he says this??
then maybe you could show me the spot where he said america were like nzais? i mean i see comparisons he makes all throughout it but i never recall hearing him say that's what we are
all i saw was him talking about our GRADUAL loss of rights and COMPARING it to the gradual loss of rights (like suspending habeas corpus) of the germans and how no one really seems to do anything about it
'a minor administrative post and also gave him citizenship on 25 February
1932'
then if you read further: n a mid-August plebiscite, these acts found the approval of 84.6%[40] of the electorate. Combining the highest offices in state, military and party in his hand, Hitler had attained supreme rule that could no longer be legally challenged.
btw, plebiscite is:
a vote by which the people of an entire country or district express an opinion for or against a proposal especially on a choice of government or ruler
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I'm pretty sure the Germans felt the same way before Hitler.
That sounds like a contradiction to me. Your government is taking away freedoms, little by little, passing new laws... So little by little your laws, your country and your freedoms are changing.
But no one is changing anything, right?
What I'm trying to say is, imo, it's ignorant to think it cannot happen to you.
That's the whole point of propaganda. Influencing you, making you do things you normally wouldn't do. Making you think things you normally wouldn't think. How many people would have agreed with the Patriot Act ten years ago? Or the suspension of Habeas corpus? The majority would probably have said: "we'll never allow that". But it happens, slowly, like you said, little by little.
The US has the basics to form a dictatorship, imo. A controlled media, crashing economy, pride, and enemies or people to blame. It also has an invisible enemy called terrorism, which is a great way to instill fear.
Also, we might "recognize" what happened in Germany, but you don't actually think things would go the exact same way.
exactly!!!! i'm glad someone could get it! i found this interesting when searching for if hitler was elected or not:
....the fire was blamed on a Communist plot to which the government reacted with the Reichstag Fire Decree of 28 February which suspended basic rights, including habeas corpus.
at what point do we say no more? it surely doesn't seem to be w/ the patriot act (which obama always voted to renew), it's certainly not the illegal FISA wiretapping issues (which obama didn't bother to vote on), it's certainly not the real ID act (again, which obama failed to vote on), it's not the terrorist information awareness act, it's not extraordinary rendition...
so when is it???
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I disagree that the U S is ripe to become Hitler's Germany. Our constitution is one protection, being in the middle of the information age, takes out the government propaganda angle, and today's military is better educated, and far less indoctrinated that the German military was, so is the citizens of this country.
As much as I disagree with bailing out investment banks and home building corporations, letting them fail would be the better choice if you were trying to purposely cave in the economy. Though china owns our dollars right now, they would fall in to an even deeper depression than the U S if our economy fails.
it's so easy to equate what's wrong with these far fetched conspiracies, but we ain't there yet, have a long way to go, so maybe trying to get more on board instead of taking the approach of talking rhetoric to the converted might get us moving forward, instead of standing still.
I think it would far better to talk about how to get more people on board with changing what is wrong. Using fear here is counter-productive IMO.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
I disagree that the U S is ripe to become Hitler's Germany. Our constitution is one protection, being in the middle of the information age, takes out the government propaganda angle, and today's military is better educated, and far less indoctrinated that the German military was, so is the citizens of this country.
As much as I disagree with bailing out investment banks and home building corporations, letting them fail would be the better choice if you were trying to purposely cave in the economy. Though china owns our dollars right now, they would fall in to an even deeper depression than the U S if our economy fails.
it's so easy to equate what's wrong with these far fetched conspiracies, but we ain't there yet, have a long way to go, so maybe trying to get more on board instead of taking the approach of talking rhetoric to the converted might get us moving forward, instead of standing still.
I think it would far better to talk about how to get more people on board with changing what is wrong. Using fear here is counter-productive IMO.
Nobody made the points that you seem to be arguing against. I don't feel like typing it again and again so just scroll back through the thread and read my replies if you're interested in knowing what angle I think the video was coming from.
And it's certainly no conspiracy that we have been losing our rights at a steady pace since 9/11 and some even before then.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
the comparisons to nazi's and the holocaust is down right idiotic. yea, thanks for posting. well done.
How exactly is it idiotic? It is not a direct comparison but we as people are so disinterested, the general public are just bumbling along unaware or simply not caring enough about what is taking place.
Why exactly do you think they have bought in the patriot act and the civil Civil Contingency bill as it's known in the UK, if not for future use?
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
A few dozen more youtube links or links to obscure blog posts.
know1, i never thought i'd say this to you, but... THAT was funny.
no offense, abook, but this stuff does get a little tired. and while i know there are MANY things to complain about here, i don't think we're on the brink of a fascist takeover. the bush administration is about as close as we'll ever come, yet i'm still allowed to attend whatever church i want to (or not) and- gasp- i don't have a serial number tattooed on my arm.
i appreciate the passion with which folks like abook approach these issues, but sometimes it's a bit overblown. just my opinion.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
no offense, abook, but this stuff does get a little tired. and while i know there are MANY things to complain about here, i don't think we're on the brink of a fascist takeover. the bush administration is about as close as we'll ever come, yet i'm still allowed to attend whatever church i want to (or not) and- gasp- i don't have a serial number tattooed on my arm.
i appreciate the passion with which folks like abook approach these issues, but sometimes it's a bit overblown. just my opinion.
I understand what you're saying. But I disagree, not entirely with your opinion but I disagree with the way you present abook's opinion or point of view.
Abook asked a very good question. When will people finally resist this corruption? When will we (not just Americans) stand up to our governments? When will we hold our officials accountable for their actions?
I think most people here disagree with a lot of things happening, with certain policies etc. But they don't act. Most people don't act. These little things, these small changes don't really affect the average Joe but they can. So already the government has more power over you, within the law.
I'm not saying the US is turning into a fascist state or will automatically become one in the future, but when people trust their government completely, let their government wiretap... when they don't even care about Habeas corpus being suspended, I think the citizens are well on their way to become oppressed people.
But these thing happen slowly. Step by step, and if you look at it objectively, you'll see there have already been taken a few steps in the wrong direction.
No one is saying America will turn into a fascist state over night. But they're pointing out how the land of the free is becoming less and less free. All, of course, to protect your freedoms...
And no, you don't have a serial number tattooed on your arm and you can still go to your church. So, what's your point. The majority of Germans didn't have a number tattooed on their arms and they could go to church too.
I guess I can only conclude from your answers (not yours specifically) that you'll only act when it's too late. The point is, I think, that oppression is something that can come slowly and unexpectedly.
They pass these laws because they want to fight America's enemies. But what if your state starts to see you as an enemy (and people influenced by media, for example, agree with the gov't)?
I know I'm sort of rambling here, just writing down my thoughts... so sorry if it's a bit incoherent.
Also, Hitler had a lot of support. He didn't say I'm going to kill millions of people, and you'll live in a dictatorship. He promised wealth when people were struggling, he gave people jobs, things were getting better... but there was of course something rotten in Germany; the Jews (look at the status of illegal immigrants, and before you all go crazy, I'm not saying illegal immigrant have the same status as jews had in nazi Germany).
It could very well be that the oppressor is someone you agree with, or someone a very large group of people agrees with. If the US economy keeps getting worse, so bad it would affect not only the poor but almost everyone and a person promises wealth and jobs, and he actually delivers... he'd get support.
What I'm trying to say is, and I've said it before, it's foolish, ignorant and arrogant to think you cannot be oppressed. What exactly would prevent it from happening? Because this is the question Abook is asking.
What will make you stand up? What will make you fight? I think she just wants to know if you're not fighting it now, when will you do it and for what reasons?
Believing you are *special* and your superior nation cannot turn into a fascist state is the first mistake, I'd say. I'm not saying you should actually think it's happening or that it will happen. But it can happen. And that's why people need to hold their government accountable for their actions, imo. That's why I think it's important to speak up when our freedoms are being taken away slowly. And not just our freedoms, but everyone's. I think we should stand up against our government when it disrespects human rights (no matter who the subject is).
We all have a different idea of what a free, democratic state should be like... but I believe we agree on a few things, like the human rights. Allowing the patriot act, suspension of habeas corpus, torture, Guantánamo is the same as allowing your right and freedoms to be restricted, or even taken away.
I personally don't think we'll see a reign like Hitler's soon, but we are losing our freedom, and we're letting it happen. Governments are too much involved in our every day lives...
know1, i never thought i'd say this to you, but... THAT was funny.
no offense, abook, but this stuff does get a little tired. and while i know there are MANY things to complain about here, i don't think we're on the brink of a fascist takeover. the bush administration is about as close as we'll ever come, yet i'm still allowed to attend whatever church i want to (or not) and- gasp- i don't have a serial number tattooed on my arm.
i appreciate the passion with which folks like abook approach these issues, but sometimes it's a bit overblown. just my opinion.
If it's so tiring for you to read other people's opinions that don't mesh with yours, then don't...I don't see what your problem is. You seem to have some kind of issue with people posting things you might not want to hear. Get over it. Lots of people do like these issues being brought up and discussed. If you're not one of them then don't reply. And if you feel the urge to reply in disagreement, be my guest. But don't try to direct what I should or should not be posting or concerned about based on your own perceptions, which have jack to do with mine. People have different takes on our current situation *imagine that* and will continue to post accordingly based on their own personal views. Your 'Obama is golden' posts tire me, as well...but I don't feel the need to post complaints about them. I'll just stick to saying how I disagree with that assessment and focus on the topic of the thread and NOT about how 'tired' your posts are because I know my view isn't the only one that exists or is worth talking about.
Fascism is when there's corporate control of gov't. FDR said that. And if you don't think corporations control most of our govt then you're not paying attention. And it is fact that we are losing more rights every year. No one said it is Nazi Germany in the US. The point was made that people put up with the a lot of shit before getting fed up. We, as a people, should have already been fed up with this crap...but we haven't stood up to it. That was the point!!! At what point would you consider it time to say enough is enough and do something about it? Would it have to actually go as far as having a 'tattooed serial number on your arm' or should we be resisting the abuse of power and restrictions on our rights that already exist now?? Why let it get worse and keep accepting things the way they are RIGHT NOW?
Stop taking this as a literal comparison and look at it as a posed question. Nothing was 'overblown' here because he never said the Nazi abuses were what is happening here just that abuses of power are happening here, so where is our line going to be drawn? The jews in Germany didn't seem to ever get around to drawing one before it was too late. So it begs the question, how bad will it have to continue to get before we hold our gov't accountable? How is this an overblown point to make?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
If it's so tiring for you to read other people's opinions that don't mesh with yours, then don't...I don't see what your problem is. You seem to have some kind of issue with people posting things you might not want to hear. Get over it. Lots of people do like these issues being brought up and discussed. If you're not one of them then don't reply. And if you feel the urge to reply in disagreement, be my guest. But don't try to direct what I should or should not be posting or concerned about based on your own perceptions, which have jack to do with mine. People have different takes on our current situation *imagine that* and will continue to post accordingly based on their own personal views. Your 'Obama is golden' posts tire me, as well...but I don't feel the need to post complaints about them. I'll just stick to saying how I disagree with that assessment and focus on the topic of the thread and NOT about how 'tired' your posts are because I know my view isn't the only one that exists or is worth talking about.
Fascism is when there's corporate control of gov't. FDR said that. And if you don't think corporations control most of our govt then you're not paying attention. And it is fact that we are losing more rights every year. No one said it is Nazi Germany in the US. The point was made that people put up with the a lot of shit before getting fed up. We, as a people, should have already been fed up with this crap...but we haven't stood up to it. That was the point!!! At what point would you consider it time to say enough is enough and do something about it? Would it have to actually go as far as having a 'tattooed serial number on your arm' or should we be resisting the abuse of power and restrictions on our rights that already exist now?? Why let it get worse and keep accepting things the way they are RIGHT NOW?
Stop taking this as a literal comparison and look at it as a posed question. Nothing was 'overblown' here because he never said the Nazi abuses were what is happening here just that abuses of power are happening here, so where is our line going to be drawn? The jews in Germany didn't seem to ever get around to drawing one before it was too late. So it begs the question, how bad will it have to continue to get before we hold our gov't accountable? How is this an overblown point to make?
i wonder if the ppl complaining about him saying the word nazi actually watched the entire clip?? he made it pretty clear what the point was; if you keep looking the other way and keep saying 'ok, cross this line'...'ok, now this one'....'ok now this one'....you end up in a corner and you lost all opportunity you had of stopping it yourselves.
the point is how far will you let your government go before you act like you really care?? patriot act? extraordinary renditions? illegal wiretaps? violating hundreds of laws and treaties like the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and icbm treaty? illegally monitoring all voice and date traffic of major telecom companies? illegal wars for proft started based on lies? the terrorist information awareness act? real id act? the military commissions act? when???
but instead ppl cry b/c he said the word 'nazi' in the same clip as the us...??
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
for the record... i understand the point of the speaker... his point is that things can happen gardually and there may not be an exact event that triggers events...
the most interesting part of the holocaust i have studied was the actual german people and how this was all allowed to happen, as they mostly cheered it on.
i do not think we are any where close to something that tragic, and i do not like when people use such extremes to make a poinjt because it immediately turns most away since it is obviously over the top. but i do understand the message.
i think a better point to make is that we (USA) currently have the global military dominance, presence, and arsenal Hitler only dreamed of... and that we clearly represent the greatest threat to world stablility, peace, and the human species survival long term... one can only imagine the military and weaponry advances of the next 300 years... unfortunately the wepaons are advancing much quicker then the species controlling them... and that is a major problem for the planet as a whole moving into the future
for the record... i understand the point of the speaker... his point is that things can happen gardually and there may not be an exact event that triggers events...
the most interesting part of the holocaust i have studied was the actual german people and how this was all allowed to happen, as they mostly cheered it on.
i do not think we are any where close to something that tragic, and i do not like when people use such extremes to make a poinjt because it immediately turns most away since it is obviously over the top. but i do understand the message.
i think a better point to make is that we (USA) currently have the global military dominance, presence, and arsenal Hitler only dreamed of... and that we clearly represent the greatest threat to world stablility, peace, and the human species survival long term... one can only imagine the military and weaponry advances of the next 300 years... unfortunately the wepaons are advancing much quicker then the species controlling them... and that is a major problem for the planet as a whole moving into the future
But that doesn't make the point that he was going for.
He thinks we are allowing too much abuse of power in our govt without resisting it and drawing a line...so do I. As citizens in a democracy, we are not doing our job. He showed how the Nazis were able to continue abusing power to the extreme of genocide without any uprising from the people. It's a perfect example to reflect on because I'm sure the jews didn't see this coming either...they keep going along, not standing up to these abuses and eventually over a gradual period of worsening, they could no longer do anything to stop the Nazi's because by then they'd lost all their rights and power as citizens living in a democracy. That point is vital to this discussion. People always feel this can't happen to them, not in our country...he gives a perfect example of how it CAN happen and how people will go along with it. So many in this thread don't like the Nazi angle because the Nazi's committed so many horrid acts on the jews and that's not what is happening here. This is true...it's not happening here the way it did there. But that is not the point. The point is if we are allowing the level of abuses in power already...ones that we, ourselves, thought americans would never stand for, what's stopping them from expanding their power even further? Why should they stop at the abuses we've already listed if no one is even worried about resisting those? If we are fine with what our govt is doing now and haven't stood up to stop them then where is this imaginary line in which we will have finally had enough? The jews didn't have one it seems, will we?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
using Nazi Germany to make this point is ridiculous. It turns people off. Talk to the problems of today, point them out, what should we do, etc...? Resist, terrible word for this point...take action, what can we do, what should we do?
If you can't communicate with people that don't share your view, then your view is pointless. I'm so tired of everyone using extreme, fearfull, and/or other examples that don't do what we need: gather more support for change.
There are plenty of points that Ron Paul, Nadar, Kicinich supportors can come together on, though they've have many they don't. They should be able to gain other liberals and moderates on issues also, but if you are turning them off before they have a chance to listen, what's the point?
I understand the point in the clip, but it's use of Nazi Germany as a parallel was ridiculous and unnecessary. It's like Michael Moore, his films cater to the converted, and should target the middle in my opinion. Yes, keep his premise, but sell it to those that didn't agree before they watched. Doesn't this make sense?
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
the most interesting part of the holocaust i have studied was the actual german people and how this was all allowed to happen, as they mostly cheered it on.
I think you're wrong about this. A lot of Germans didn't know what truly went on in those camps, though they probably knew it wasn't pretty. But please do show me I'm wrong and present a piece of evidence which shows "they mostly cheered it on."
Also, bear in mind that those who did know about the atrocities or anyone for that matter could immediately be labelled as an enemy of the state and be shipped to camps themselves or be killed.
That's why it's important we act now. We should resist now before any act of resistance is labelled "terrorism" and people become too scared to act.
We need to show our governments (because this isn't just an American thing, or a temporary thing either) that we won't stand oppression, corruption and abuse. We, as a people, need to let the people we elect know that they work for us. We should stand up together and put aside our differences to let the leaders of the world know we won't tolerate violation of rights, more and more restrictions on fundamental freedoms, abuse and oppression... This isn't a left/right issue, this is something we should all agree on because it can and will affect us all.
Also, I've noticed that a lot of people comment on the video and say it won't happen, and the nazi comparison is stupid... but who's actually answered the question:
What's it going to take before you decide to resist?
Seriously, think about it and answer that question, where would you draw the line? When will you say, this is wrong and we need to act?
I understand what you're saying. But I disagree, not entirely with your opinion but I disagree with the way you present abook's opinion or point of view.
Abook asked a very good question. When will people finally resist this corruption? When will we (not just Americans) stand up to our governments? When will we hold our officials accountable for their actions?
I think most people here disagree with a lot of things happening, with certain policies etc. But they don't act. Most people don't act. These little things, these small changes don't really affect the average Joe but they can. So already the government has more power over you, within the law.
I'm not saying the US is turning into a fascist state or will automatically become one in the future, but when people trust their government completely, let their government wiretap... when they don't even care about Habeas corpus being suspended, I think the citizens are well on their way to become oppressed people.
But these thing happen slowly. Step by step, and if you look at it objectively, you'll see there have already been taken a few steps in the wrong direction.
No one is saying America will turn into a fascist state over night. But they're pointing out how the land of the free is becoming less and less free. All, of course, to protect your freedoms...
And no, you don't have a serial number tattooed on your arm and you can still go to your church. So, what's your point. The majority of Germans didn't have a number tattooed on their arms and they could go to church too.
I guess I can only conclude from your answers (not yours specifically) that you'll only act when it's too late. The point is, I think, that oppression is something that can come slowly and unexpectedly.
They pass these laws because they want to fight America's enemies. But what if your state starts to see you as an enemy (and people influenced by media, for example, agree with the gov't)?
I know I'm sort of rambling here, just writing down my thoughts... so sorry if it's a bit incoherent.
Also, Hitler had a lot of support. He didn't say I'm going to kill millions of people, and you'll live in a dictatorship. He promised wealth when people were struggling, he gave people jobs, things were getting better... but there was of course something rotten in Germany; the Jews (look at the status of illegal immigrants, and before you all go crazy, I'm not saying illegal immigrant have the same status as jews had in nazi Germany).
It could very well be that the oppressor is someone you agree with, or someone a very large group of people agrees with. If the US economy keeps getting worse, so bad it would affect not only the poor but almost everyone and a person promises wealth and jobs, and he actually delivers... he'd get support.
What I'm trying to say is, and I've said it before, it's foolish, ignorant and arrogant to think you cannot be oppressed. What exactly would prevent it from happening? Because this is the question Abook is asking.
What will make you stand up? What will make you fight? I think she just wants to know if you're not fighting it now, when will you do it and for what reasons?
Believing you are *special* and your superior nation cannot turn into a fascist state is the first mistake, I'd say. I'm not saying you should actually think it's happening or that it will happen. But it can happen. And that's why people need to hold their government accountable for their actions, imo. That's why I think it's important to speak up when our freedoms are being taken away slowly. And not just our freedoms, but everyone's. I think we should stand up against our government when it disrespects human rights (no matter who the subject is).
We all have a different idea of what a free, democratic state should be like... but I believe we agree on a few things, like the human rights. Allowing the patriot act, suspension of habeas corpus, torture, Guantánamo is the same as allowing your right and freedoms to be restricted, or even taken away.
I personally don't think we'll see a reign like Hitler's soon, but we are losing our freedom, and we're letting it happen. Governments are too much involved in our every day lives...
using Nazi Germany to make this point is ridiculous. It turns people off. Talk to the problems of today, point them out, what should we do, etc...? Resist, terrible word for this point...take action, what can we do, what should we do?
If you can't communicate with people that don't share your view, then your view is pointless. I'm so tired of everyone using extreme, fearfull, and/or other examples that don't do what we need: gather more support for change.
There are plenty of points that Ron Paul, Nadar, Kicinich supportors can come together on, though they've have many they don't. They should be able to gain other liberals and moderates on issues also, but if you are turning them off before they have a chance to listen, what's the point?
I understand the point in the clip, but it's use of Nazi Germany as a parallel was ridiculous and unnecessary. It's like Michael Moore, his films cater to the converted, and should target the middle in my opinion. Yes, keep his premise, but sell it to those that didn't agree before they watched. Doesn't this make sense?
'It turns people off'??? No shit, so does most things that involve placing blame on themselves, taking responsibility and hearing things they don't want to. How is it ridiculous? Just because you have deemed it so? How is using an example of a people not resisting to the point of their own genocide taking place not a perfect example to use when pointing out society's refusal to stand up for itself? That would be the best case to show this happening...so it only makes sense to use that example. What would be a better example to make this point? There is none.
Are we not supposed to teach about the Holocaust because it's too extreme? Of course not. And there's nothing wrong with using it here. Just like when people make the case for Global Warming, they point out the worst cases of it afftecting our planet. And they should because it's very important and can't contiue to be ignored, neither can this. That's how you get your point across to show how bad it can get. The only parallel drawn was the inaction not the circumstances. The inaction is what we have to address here. If he claimed we were like Nazi Germany then you'd have a point but he didn't. He posed a questioned based on our history of inaction as a country and sited a great example of how bad this kind of uninvolved citizenry who doesn't hold their govt accountable CAN get. And if that happens to frighten you, it's only because you know we are doing nothing here and stand to lose a lot more freedom if this trend keeps up. I mean, what or who is stopping them?? People SHOULD be worried about it...it's not going to just go away with happy thoughts and avoidance of the problem.
and please address my points instead of another vague post on how the comparison is ridiculous(not just you) without mentioning a single point I posted saying otherwise.
If we're going to debate this, you're supposed to address my points with a counter point...not just keep typing the same argument over and over again without answering what has been in my posts refuting that.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Collin's post was excellent. I hope more people address what he said in it. He got the point of the video and this thread perfectly, looked at it objectively without the reactionary response of 'How dare evil nazis be mentioned in the same breath with the US!?' Kudos to him!
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
How is it ridiculous? Just because you have deemed it so? How is using an example of a people not resisting to the point of their own genocide taking place not a perfect example to use when pointing out society's refusal to stand up for itself? That would be the best case to show this happening...so it only makes sense to use that example. What would be a better example to make this point? There is none.
it doesn't speak to those that don't already agree? making points directly about what constitutional rights we've lost and/or abuses that need to be addressed and how it effects us now is a better argument.
Germany was still a mess and in massive turmoil from WWI. Jews were blamed for Germanies loss in WWI. There was a base hatred there, and it was manipulated. Germanies government, was not ours, their constitution wasn't ours.
saying if we don't do this, we'll be nazi germany doesn't resonate with even a large majority. I agree with what's wrong, and we need to take action, but his argument was a turn-off. Made me think of a Karl Rove type argument style that Bush or Cheney might use. It reminds me of the last 7 years.
It's not a good communication of an important issue IMO.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
Comments
Personally, i think he is a nut job, and it depends on what you believe i guess, as to how much credibility you want to give anything he says.
In relation to 9/11 he thinks that it was obvious the buildings were bought down using pyrotechnics. He is also adament there was no bomb outside the building in the oklahoma city boming, and he leaves Ted Douche Nugent for dead with his stance on gun control. Badnarik feels that widespread gun ownership cuts down on crime, and that the right to own guns is absolutely guaranteed, without exceptions, limitations or qualifications, by the Second Amendment. If he was able, he would repeal all gun-control laws, including any that require gun registration. Get that? No registration. Nut job.
Right, he's a libertarian and I certainly don't agree with him on every issue. But I do see where he's coming from on the issue addressed in the video.
I believe 9/11 was an inside job, too. Does that automatically make me a nutjob or discredit everything else I have to say? Of course not, only the simple, closed minded types shut out all views based on one issue. And personally, I find it ignorant to call people who may disagree with you on certain things nutjobs. I don't think the man appeared crazy. He ran on the libertarian ticket for president and seems pretty knowledgeable despite our differing ideologies. I try not to write someone off so easily and actually listen to what they have to say, myself.
I didn't post this to further the libertarian agenda. I posted it to discuss the topic addressed in the video. Any thoughts on that?
We all can find common ground somewhere...so let's try to open up our minds to differing views and work together on the things in which we find ourselves in agreement first...then we can tackle the other stuff.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The government has proven over, and over, and over again that it can't be held accountable. It's time to do something different. Cutting off the funds is the only thing I see working as it keeps the power in the hands of the people.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
ummm... no... I meant that he made things out to be much worse than they are to frighten people.
What questions? And saying people "act like children" is about the same as calling people paranoid, no? Besides, that onion clip made me laugh, so I thought that I would share
I said before, I understand the point that he was trying to make, but as soon as you start making references and comparisons to a situation where 6 million people died, you loose credibility in my mind.
I agree that our government is heading us down the wrong direction little by little, but at the same time in this country, we have term limits, we have elections... no one is changing that.
I just see it as a cyclical thing... in the 40's & 50's our government went nuts and locked up 100,000+ japanese americans, and McCarthyism was out of control, but public sentiment changed, the political climate changed, and our country came out of that. I just don't see the situation that we are in/heading to as anything near that.
I do support Obama in this election, but I am smart enough to know that he won't/can't make most of the changes that he is campaigning for, but I do believe that he can slowly reverse the direction that we are heading.
Electing people like Ron Paul, Kucinich, Nader, etc., while as great as their ideas may be, their changes would never happen either. Our country and government are so entrenched in our ways, that you can't just turn a country around 180 degrees with a quick change in one branch of government. I think it would turn in to the biggest cluster-fuck of a government that we've ever seen.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
thank you MrSmith.
I assume you also find it ignorant to call people who may disagree with you or others on certain things 'obamaniacs', and that in future you might be just as quick to jump down their throat and publically view your thoughts on that too.
My thoughts on the video?
I give the American people a lot more credit than Badnarik does. We will never allow ourself to be in that situation. We do have elections, and we do have specific terms for our elected officials. We're not seeing elections with one party getting 99% of the vote. And by the way: Hitler was never elected into office. He was appointed by the senile German President who was influenced by his son. You really think something like that would happen here?
The President isn't Hitler; America isn't the Third Reich. That doesn't mean the leaders are always good guys. But they're not in the same psychopathic, criminally insane league as were the Nazi elite.
I'm pretty sure the Germans felt the same way before Hitler.
That sounds like a contradiction to me. Your government is taking away freedoms, little by little, passing new laws... So little by little your laws, your country and your freedoms are changing.
But no one is changing anything, right?
What I'm trying to say is, imo, it's ignorant to think it cannot happen to you.
That's the whole point of propaganda. Influencing you, making you do things you normally wouldn't do. Making you think things you normally wouldn't think. How many people would have agreed with the Patriot Act ten years ago? Or the suspension of Habeas corpus? The majority would probably have said: "we'll never allow that". But it happens, slowly, like you said, little by little.
The US has the basics to form a dictatorship, imo. A controlled media, crashing economy, pride, and enemies or people to blame. It also has an invisible enemy called terrorism, which is a great way to instill fear.
Also, we might "recognize" what happened in Germany, but you don't actually think things would go the exact same way.
naděje umírá poslední
no one is arguing about gun control, we are discussing the points he made in the video, which i guess i missed the part where he spoke about guns...? could you please tell me what time in the video clip he says this??
then maybe you could show me the spot where he said america were like nzais? i mean i see comparisons he makes all throughout it but i never recall hearing him say that's what we are
all i saw was him talking about our GRADUAL loss of rights and COMPARING it to the gradual loss of rights (like suspending habeas corpus) of the germans and how no one really seems to do anything about it
that i don't see how you or anyone can deny.
as for hitler, you are wrong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#Entry_into_politics
he was appoiinted as a police spy
then here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#Rise_to_power
'a minor administrative post and also gave him citizenship on 25 February
1932'
then if you read further:
n a mid-August plebiscite, these acts found the approval of 84.6%[40] of the electorate. Combining the highest offices in state, military and party in his hand, Hitler had attained supreme rule that could no longer be legally challenged.
btw, plebiscite is:
a vote by which the people of an entire country or district express an opinion for or against a proposal especially on a choice of government or ruler
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
exactly!!!! i'm glad someone could get it! i found this interesting when searching for if hitler was elected or not:
....the fire was blamed on a Communist plot to which the government reacted with the Reichstag Fire Decree of 28 February which suspended basic rights, including habeas corpus.
at what point do we say no more? it surely doesn't seem to be w/ the patriot act (which obama always voted to renew), it's certainly not the illegal FISA wiretapping issues (which obama didn't bother to vote on), it's certainly not the real ID act (again, which obama failed to vote on), it's not the terrorist information awareness act, it's not extraordinary rendition...
so when is it???
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
As much as I disagree with bailing out investment banks and home building corporations, letting them fail would be the better choice if you were trying to purposely cave in the economy. Though china owns our dollars right now, they would fall in to an even deeper depression than the U S if our economy fails.
it's so easy to equate what's wrong with these far fetched conspiracies, but we ain't there yet, have a long way to go, so maybe trying to get more on board instead of taking the approach of talking rhetoric to the converted might get us moving forward, instead of standing still.
I think it would far better to talk about how to get more people on board with changing what is wrong. Using fear here is counter-productive IMO.
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf
Nobody made the points that you seem to be arguing against. I don't feel like typing it again and again so just scroll back through the thread and read my replies if you're interested in knowing what angle I think the video was coming from.
And it's certainly no conspiracy that we have been losing our rights at a steady pace since 9/11 and some even before then.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIlTgaImVsI
there's a few good links in the informations side
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
How exactly is it idiotic? It is not a direct comparison but we as people are so disinterested, the general public are just bumbling along unaware or simply not caring enough about what is taking place.
Why exactly do you think they have bought in the patriot act and the civil Civil Contingency bill as it's known in the UK, if not for future use?
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
know1, i never thought i'd say this to you, but... THAT was funny.
no offense, abook, but this stuff does get a little tired. and while i know there are MANY things to complain about here, i don't think we're on the brink of a fascist takeover. the bush administration is about as close as we'll ever come, yet i'm still allowed to attend whatever church i want to (or not) and- gasp- i don't have a serial number tattooed on my arm.
i appreciate the passion with which folks like abook approach these issues, but sometimes it's a bit overblown. just my opinion.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
I understand what you're saying. But I disagree, not entirely with your opinion but I disagree with the way you present abook's opinion or point of view.
Abook asked a very good question. When will people finally resist this corruption? When will we (not just Americans) stand up to our governments? When will we hold our officials accountable for their actions?
I think most people here disagree with a lot of things happening, with certain policies etc. But they don't act. Most people don't act. These little things, these small changes don't really affect the average Joe but they can. So already the government has more power over you, within the law.
I'm not saying the US is turning into a fascist state or will automatically become one in the future, but when people trust their government completely, let their government wiretap... when they don't even care about Habeas corpus being suspended, I think the citizens are well on their way to become oppressed people.
But these thing happen slowly. Step by step, and if you look at it objectively, you'll see there have already been taken a few steps in the wrong direction.
No one is saying America will turn into a fascist state over night. But they're pointing out how the land of the free is becoming less and less free. All, of course, to protect your freedoms...
And no, you don't have a serial number tattooed on your arm and you can still go to your church. So, what's your point. The majority of Germans didn't have a number tattooed on their arms and they could go to church too.
I guess I can only conclude from your answers (not yours specifically) that you'll only act when it's too late. The point is, I think, that oppression is something that can come slowly and unexpectedly.
They pass these laws because they want to fight America's enemies. But what if your state starts to see you as an enemy (and people influenced by media, for example, agree with the gov't)?
I know I'm sort of rambling here, just writing down my thoughts... so sorry if it's a bit incoherent.
Also, Hitler had a lot of support. He didn't say I'm going to kill millions of people, and you'll live in a dictatorship. He promised wealth when people were struggling, he gave people jobs, things were getting better... but there was of course something rotten in Germany; the Jews (look at the status of illegal immigrants, and before you all go crazy, I'm not saying illegal immigrant have the same status as jews had in nazi Germany).
It could very well be that the oppressor is someone you agree with, or someone a very large group of people agrees with. If the US economy keeps getting worse, so bad it would affect not only the poor but almost everyone and a person promises wealth and jobs, and he actually delivers... he'd get support.
What I'm trying to say is, and I've said it before, it's foolish, ignorant and arrogant to think you cannot be oppressed. What exactly would prevent it from happening? Because this is the question Abook is asking.
What will make you stand up? What will make you fight? I think she just wants to know if you're not fighting it now, when will you do it and for what reasons?
Believing you are *special* and your superior nation cannot turn into a fascist state is the first mistake, I'd say. I'm not saying you should actually think it's happening or that it will happen. But it can happen. And that's why people need to hold their government accountable for their actions, imo. That's why I think it's important to speak up when our freedoms are being taken away slowly. And not just our freedoms, but everyone's. I think we should stand up against our government when it disrespects human rights (no matter who the subject is).
We all have a different idea of what a free, democratic state should be like... but I believe we agree on a few things, like the human rights. Allowing the patriot act, suspension of habeas corpus, torture, Guantánamo is the same as allowing your right and freedoms to be restricted, or even taken away.
I personally don't think we'll see a reign like Hitler's soon, but we are losing our freedom, and we're letting it happen. Governments are too much involved in our every day lives...
...
Damn, long post
naděje umírá poslední
If it's so tiring for you to read other people's opinions that don't mesh with yours, then don't...I don't see what your problem is. You seem to have some kind of issue with people posting things you might not want to hear. Get over it. Lots of people do like these issues being brought up and discussed. If you're not one of them then don't reply. And if you feel the urge to reply in disagreement, be my guest. But don't try to direct what I should or should not be posting or concerned about based on your own perceptions, which have jack to do with mine. People have different takes on our current situation *imagine that* and will continue to post accordingly based on their own personal views. Your 'Obama is golden' posts tire me, as well...but I don't feel the need to post complaints about them. I'll just stick to saying how I disagree with that assessment and focus on the topic of the thread and NOT about how 'tired' your posts are because I know my view isn't the only one that exists or is worth talking about.
Fascism is when there's corporate control of gov't. FDR said that. And if you don't think corporations control most of our govt then you're not paying attention. And it is fact that we are losing more rights every year. No one said it is Nazi Germany in the US. The point was made that people put up with the a lot of shit before getting fed up. We, as a people, should have already been fed up with this crap...but we haven't stood up to it. That was the point!!! At what point would you consider it time to say enough is enough and do something about it? Would it have to actually go as far as having a 'tattooed serial number on your arm' or should we be resisting the abuse of power and restrictions on our rights that already exist now?? Why let it get worse and keep accepting things the way they are RIGHT NOW?
Stop taking this as a literal comparison and look at it as a posed question. Nothing was 'overblown' here because he never said the Nazi abuses were what is happening here just that abuses of power are happening here, so where is our line going to be drawn? The jews in Germany didn't seem to ever get around to drawing one before it was too late. So it begs the question, how bad will it have to continue to get before we hold our gov't accountable? How is this an overblown point to make?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
"Forgive every being,
the bad feelings
it's just me"
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
i wonder if the ppl complaining about him saying the word nazi actually watched the entire clip?? he made it pretty clear what the point was; if you keep looking the other way and keep saying 'ok, cross this line'...'ok, now this one'....'ok now this one'....you end up in a corner and you lost all opportunity you had of stopping it yourselves.
the point is how far will you let your government go before you act like you really care?? patriot act? extraordinary renditions? illegal wiretaps? violating hundreds of laws and treaties like the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and icbm treaty? illegally monitoring all voice and date traffic of major telecom companies? illegal wars for proft started based on lies? the terrorist information awareness act? real id act? the military commissions act? when???
but instead ppl cry b/c he said the word 'nazi' in the same clip as the us...??
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
he should have "resisted" the urge to wear that purple shirt and tie combo
i dont see that happening...
the most interesting part of the holocaust i have studied was the actual german people and how this was all allowed to happen, as they mostly cheered it on.
i do not think we are any where close to something that tragic, and i do not like when people use such extremes to make a poinjt because it immediately turns most away since it is obviously over the top. but i do understand the message.
i think a better point to make is that we (USA) currently have the global military dominance, presence, and arsenal Hitler only dreamed of... and that we clearly represent the greatest threat to world stablility, peace, and the human species survival long term... one can only imagine the military and weaponry advances of the next 300 years... unfortunately the wepaons are advancing much quicker then the species controlling them... and that is a major problem for the planet as a whole moving into the future
But that doesn't make the point that he was going for.
He thinks we are allowing too much abuse of power in our govt without resisting it and drawing a line...so do I. As citizens in a democracy, we are not doing our job. He showed how the Nazis were able to continue abusing power to the extreme of genocide without any uprising from the people. It's a perfect example to reflect on because I'm sure the jews didn't see this coming either...they keep going along, not standing up to these abuses and eventually over a gradual period of worsening, they could no longer do anything to stop the Nazi's because by then they'd lost all their rights and power as citizens living in a democracy. That point is vital to this discussion. People always feel this can't happen to them, not in our country...he gives a perfect example of how it CAN happen and how people will go along with it. So many in this thread don't like the Nazi angle because the Nazi's committed so many horrid acts on the jews and that's not what is happening here. This is true...it's not happening here the way it did there. But that is not the point. The point is if we are allowing the level of abuses in power already...ones that we, ourselves, thought americans would never stand for, what's stopping them from expanding their power even further? Why should they stop at the abuses we've already listed if no one is even worried about resisting those? If we are fine with what our govt is doing now and haven't stood up to stop them then where is this imaginary line in which we will have finally had enough? The jews didn't have one it seems, will we?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
If you can't communicate with people that don't share your view, then your view is pointless. I'm so tired of everyone using extreme, fearfull, and/or other examples that don't do what we need: gather more support for change.
There are plenty of points that Ron Paul, Nadar, Kicinich supportors can come together on, though they've have many they don't. They should be able to gain other liberals and moderates on issues also, but if you are turning them off before they have a chance to listen, what's the point?
I understand the point in the clip, but it's use of Nazi Germany as a parallel was ridiculous and unnecessary. It's like Michael Moore, his films cater to the converted, and should target the middle in my opinion. Yes, keep his premise, but sell it to those that didn't agree before they watched. Doesn't this make sense?
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf
I think you're wrong about this. A lot of Germans didn't know what truly went on in those camps, though they probably knew it wasn't pretty. But please do show me I'm wrong and present a piece of evidence which shows "they mostly cheered it on."
Also, bear in mind that those who did know about the atrocities or anyone for that matter could immediately be labelled as an enemy of the state and be shipped to camps themselves or be killed.
That's why it's important we act now. We should resist now before any act of resistance is labelled "terrorism" and people become too scared to act.
We need to show our governments (because this isn't just an American thing, or a temporary thing either) that we won't stand oppression, corruption and abuse. We, as a people, need to let the people we elect know that they work for us. We should stand up together and put aside our differences to let the leaders of the world know we won't tolerate violation of rights, more and more restrictions on fundamental freedoms, abuse and oppression... This isn't a left/right issue, this is something we should all agree on because it can and will affect us all.
Also, I've noticed that a lot of people comment on the video and say it won't happen, and the nazi comparison is stupid... but who's actually answered the question:
What's it going to take before you decide to resist?
Seriously, think about it and answer that question, where would you draw the line? When will you say, this is wrong and we need to act?
naděje umírá poslední
Really cool post
Think everyone should read 1984 every decade...
'It turns people off'??? No shit, so does most things that involve placing blame on themselves, taking responsibility and hearing things they don't want to. How is it ridiculous? Just because you have deemed it so? How is using an example of a people not resisting to the point of their own genocide taking place not a perfect example to use when pointing out society's refusal to stand up for itself? That would be the best case to show this happening...so it only makes sense to use that example. What would be a better example to make this point? There is none.
Are we not supposed to teach about the Holocaust because it's too extreme? Of course not. And there's nothing wrong with using it here. Just like when people make the case for Global Warming, they point out the worst cases of it afftecting our planet. And they should because it's very important and can't contiue to be ignored, neither can this. That's how you get your point across to show how bad it can get. The only parallel drawn was the inaction not the circumstances. The inaction is what we have to address here. If he claimed we were like Nazi Germany then you'd have a point but he didn't. He posed a questioned based on our history of inaction as a country and sited a great example of how bad this kind of uninvolved citizenry who doesn't hold their govt accountable CAN get. And if that happens to frighten you, it's only because you know we are doing nothing here and stand to lose a lot more freedom if this trend keeps up. I mean, what or who is stopping them?? People SHOULD be worried about it...it's not going to just go away with happy thoughts and avoidance of the problem.
and please address my points instead of another vague post on how the comparison is ridiculous(not just you) without mentioning a single point I posted saying otherwise.
If we're going to debate this, you're supposed to address my points with a counter point...not just keep typing the same argument over and over again without answering what has been in my posts refuting that.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Collin's post was excellent.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
it doesn't speak to those that don't already agree? making points directly about what constitutional rights we've lost and/or abuses that need to be addressed and how it effects us now is a better argument.
Germany was still a mess and in massive turmoil from WWI. Jews were blamed for Germanies loss in WWI. There was a base hatred there, and it was manipulated. Germanies government, was not ours, their constitution wasn't ours.
saying if we don't do this, we'll be nazi germany doesn't resonate with even a large majority. I agree with what's wrong, and we need to take action, but his argument was a turn-off. Made me think of a Karl Rove type argument style that Bush or Cheney might use. It reminds me of the last 7 years.
It's not a good communication of an important issue IMO.
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf