Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Interesting how thoughts can be so contagious. I would have loved to witness the very first human become sentient... It probably would have been both incredible and hilarious at the same time. The smile on his face and look in his eyes after a few minutes of thinking what the faa?...would be priceless...
Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness.
It is common belief that consciousness is the Cartesian Theatre, where consciousness converges at some point in the brain. This is factually inaccurate, consciousness is not a localized phenomena, it's dispersed throughout the brain. It's out of necessity that we are conscious, just as dogs, cats, dolphins, birds and fruitflies are conscious at different levels. It's my belief that humans have always been sentient and through evolution gradually developed a self-awareness. I don't believe there was a first human to experience this phenomena.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Knowing that my emotional capacity is degraded from prior events does not damage my ego either.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness.
It is common belief that consciousness is the Cartesian Theatre, where consciousness converges at some point in the brain. This is factually inaccurate, consciousness is not a localized phenomena, it's dispersed throughout the brain. It's out of necessity that we are conscious, just as dogs, cats, dolphins, birds and fruitflies are conscious at different levels. It's my belief that humans have always been sentient and through evolution gradually developed a self-awareness. I don't believe there was a first human to experience this phenomena.
Well I for one am a big fan of the lightbulb going off theory.
I think of it this way; essentially....the sensory organ called the eyeball in a particular individual looked around one day and said....HOLY SWEET #@!$ SHIT!!! just like is still happening all the time in people today.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Well I for one am a big fan of the lightbulb going off theory.
I think of it this way; essentially....the sensory organ called the eyeball in a particular individual looked around one day and said....HOLY SWEET #@!$ SHIT!!! just like is still happening all the time in people today.
True, would it be the same as your cat chasing a laser pointer? Essentially they are saying "Holy shit, what's that? Get it!"
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
True, would it be the same as your cat chasing a laser pointer? Essentially they are saying "Holy shit, what's that? Get it!"
Cat's are magnificent to watch in the wild. I made a lure for my cat. I took a piece of black material and stuffed with catnip, tied on a 5 inch black tail and connected that all up to a fishing rod.
I can get some pretty nice casts in my basement. Sometimes I sit on the back deck and cast out into the back yard (especially around dusk), and the cat goes totally nuts. It's pretty hilarious. I used to train him all the time during TV commercials, and whenever. It's therapeutic...it makes you laugh your ass off.
Long story short, I turned my cat into an athlete. He catches flies in midair and eats them, Last summer he brings me this fucking huge pigeon down into the basement and drops it right at my feet. I still can't even understand how heck he fit it in his mouth. It was alive and ok, just stunned as hell, so I carried it back outsize and it flew off a few mins later.
I think more than a few mammals are sentient. Cats and dogs especially.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
it's patting yourself on the back and making the same kind of sweepingly conclusory statements the religious people you love to hate specialize in.
Now your passing judgement on things you can't possibly know. How rude!
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Now your passing judgement on things you can't possibly know. How rude!
i can possibly know, becos i read your posts. and your consistent claims that you know more than everyone else and that your way of seeing the world is the only way that makes any sense is as ridiculous and arrogant and narrow-minded as the religious people who claim the same thing.
Now your passing judgement on things you can't possibly know. How rude!
when i read your posts ryan i sometimes came face to face with a condescending attitude. the connotation of which is that what you post is of greater import and gravity than what anyone else is posting. like soulsinging, i call that ego. and you know we all got one.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness.
It is common belief that consciousness is the Cartesian Theatre, where consciousness converges at some point in the brain. This is factually inaccurate, consciousness is not a localized phenomena, it's dispersed throughout the brain. It's out of necessity that we are conscious, just as dogs, cats, dolphins, birds and fruitflies are conscious at different levels. It's my belief that humans have always been sentient and through evolution gradually developed a self-awareness. I don't believe there was a first human to experience this phenomena.
It is interesting to contemplate self-awareness in animals. I dispute the common belief that only orangutangs are.
My dogs are definitelt self-aware when they are with us. This is not apparent if they are in a boarding kennel for a few weeks, then they lose it, but they get it back again after a short period back home. Mr Plod had a cold once and did this massive sneeze and got snot all over his face. His expression was priceless, clearly saying, "get this shit off my face".
Mind is contagious !!
You can easily see embarrassment in my stallions/colts if they make a mistake or do something silly like fall over on slippery ground, or get chastised too hard for something.
Jari used to run off and hide in his stable if he got embarrassed. Other complex emotions are less evident, though fear and anger are easy to see.
I suggest that self-awareness is essential before you can feel embarrassment.
Cat's are magnificent to watch in the wild. I made a lure for my cat. I took a piece of black material and stuffed with catnip, tied on a 5 inch black tail and connected that all up to a fishing rod.
I can get some pretty nice casts in my basement. Sometimes I sit on the back deck and cast out into the back yard (especially around dusk), and the cat goes totally nuts. It's pretty hilarious. I used to train him all the time during TV commercials, and whenever. It's therapeutic...it makes you laugh your ass off.
Long story short, I turned my cat into an athlete. He catches flies in midair and eats them, Last summer he brings me this fucking huge pigeon down into the basement and drops it right at my feet. I still can't even understand how heck he fit it in his mouth. It was alive and ok, just stunned as hell, so I carried it back outsize and it flew off a few mins later.
I think more than a few mammals are sentient. Cats and dogs especially.
Can you post some pics of this ??? I would love to see your cat flying !!
when i read your posts ryan i sometimes came face to face with a condescending attitude. the connotation of which is that what you post is of greater import and gravity than what anyone else is posting. like soulsinging, i call that ego. and you know we all got one.
Spend some time on your posts and maybe they will feel more powerful to you. Then you won't feel like I'm condescending. Don't mistake your timidity for my courage. I spend a lot of time behind my posts reading and researching the topics. I post facts. I bring them together in a theory. Most of the responses are absolute speculation from personal experience and invalid. What kind of a debate has people pulling rabbits out of their hats, this isn't a magic show, bring something real to the table.
I try to provide detailed explanations linked to credible sources. I'm not about to back down from everything because someone has a difference of opinion. Especially when they don't really know what they are talking about. Whatever your profession is, if it's pharmacology, or automotive, you know when someone is full of shit. Well I know when someone is full of it too.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
It is interesting to contemplate self-awareness in animals. I dispute the common belief that only orangutangs are.
My dogs are definitelt self-aware when they are with us. This is not apparent if they are in a boarding kennel for a few weeks, then they lose it, but they get it back again after a short period back home. Mr Plod had a cold once and did this massive sneeze and got snot all over his face. His expression was priceless, clearly saying, "get this shit off my face".
Mind is contagious !!
You can easily see embarrassment in my stallions/colts if they make a mistake or do something silly like fall over on slippery ground, or get chastised too hard for something.
Jari used to run off and hide in his stable if he got embarrassed. Other complex emotions are less evident, though fear and anger are easy to see.
I suggest that self-awareness is essential before you can feel embarrassment.
Awareness of the self is an interesting thing. We could probably talk for hours about two completely different things. First of all, what is self? If it's our entire being from head to toe, body and mind, then of course animals are self-aware, so are computers. A computer software is written to detect input from it's organs, that makes it a sentient being, and self-aware. We just have a more complex software, far superior than modern computers or any other specie for that matter. I have no doubt that some animals have consciousness' more closely resembling ours, but on the other hand, I don't think chickens are all there. Being that consciousness/self-awareness is dispersed throughout the brain, I believe consciousness is just a function of brain processing. Our brains are aware of what our brains are doing, so it only makes sense that that would be consciousness. It just happens that not everything gets heard as loudly, or due to time constraints things are filtered. I don't know, but there is no doubt in my mind that all living organisms down to bacteria are self-aware.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
it's patting yourself on the back and making the same kind of sweepingly conclusory statements the religious people you love to hate specialize in.
Maybe it's just the way you are reading it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Spend some time on your posts and maybe they will feel more powerful to you. Then you won't feel like I'm condescending. Don't mistake your timidity for my courage. I spend a lot of time behind my posts reading and researching the topics. I post facts. I bring them together in a theory. Most of the responses are absolute speculation from personal experience and invalid. What kind of a debate has people pulling rabbits out of their hats, this isn't a magic show, bring something real to the table.
I try to provide detailed explanations linked to credible sources. I'm not about to back down from everything because someone has a difference of opinion. Especially when they don't really know what they are talking about. Whatever your profession is, if it's pharmacology, or automotive, you know when someone is full of shit. Well I know when someone is full of it too.
i've been called a lot of things in my life ryan, but timid is not one of them.
and i will always find you condescending. youve proven that time and time again regardless of the topic. you hide behind cold hard facts even when a little compassion is called for.
half the time i dont even know what your thinking is on a particular subject, you're so wrapped up in your links and wikipedia and so called sources. i want to know what ryan thinks, not what he thinks he should think.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
The only reason that no one has disputed cold hard facts is because most of us can't be bothered. The behaviour is offensive and bullying.
And as there isn't a thread safe from being bullied and hijacked, I reckon I'll be doing like practically everybody else around here and finding other more important things to do than reward bad behaviour.
Awareness of the self is an interesting thing. We could probably talk for hours about two completely different things. First of all, what is self? If it's our entire being from head to toe, body and mind, then of course animals are self-aware, so are computers. A computer software is written to detect input from it's organs, that makes it a sentient being, and self-aware. We just have a more complex software, far superior than modern computers or any other specie for that matter. I have no doubt that some animals have consciousness' more closely resembling ours, but on the other hand, I don't think chickens are all there. Being that consciousness/self-awareness is dispersed throughout the brain, I believe consciousness is just a function of brain processing. Our brains are aware of what our brains are doing, so it only makes sense that that would be consciousness. It just happens that not everything gets heard as loudly, or due to time constraints things are filtered. I don't know, but there is no doubt in my mind that all living organisms down to bacteria are self-aware.
You are being too reductionist. Taking the discussion back to these silly philosophical questions of what is self, do we really exist etc does not contribute, it just stifles and sidettracks. It's OK to make assumptions like "self" means me, Lucy the Lesbian Lover sitting in front of this computer, which fails a different test of self-awareness, which is this.
I can make a different decision each time in response to any given input stimulus. A computer cannot. If it's algorhithms tell it to do something, that's what it does.
I on the other hand, made a choice to respond to this thread when I saw new posts a few minutes ago. If there are new posts there when I finally submit this, I will make the decision to go for a shower and eat dinner instead, cos I can smell it, and it smells better than you do right now !!
So, if consciousness is dispersed throughout the brain, that implies that it is a multicellular function, so just how does a singel cell organism manage that ?? Further, does that include plants. A tree is certainly more complex than a bacteria, so is it self-aware too ?? I very much doubt it.
You are falling into the trap of thinking that all you know is all there is to know. It's one reason why a formal education would be good for you. At present you stick to finding out what you want to know, and you are not being forced to look at the rest of the picture.
There you go, a bit of condescencion coming right back at you, babe !!
i've been called a lot of things in my life ryan, but timid is not one of them.
and i will always find you condescending. youve proven that time and time again regardless of the topic. you hide behind cold hard facts even when a little compassion is called for.
half the time i dont even know what your thinking is on a particular subject, you're so wrapped up in your links and wikipedia and so called sources. i want to know what ryan thinks, not what he thinks he should think.
I'm not hiding behind anything. Don't you think that statement is also condescending? You are some how unveiled and I am hiding?
I have nothing to hide, I've posted my most embarassing and degrading moments, as well as my most amazing experiences. I've shared everything down to my full name and address. I am not hiding anything Cate. That's the difference, I'm not shying away from the threat of offending someone with my viewpoint. I won't be afraid of so-called "Common-sense" and other social prejudices.
There are 3 things you don't talk about at work, sex, politics and religion. That's why I'm here. Although, I still do talk about it at work :*( But anyway, I don't see why I can't post links, quote information and express a viewpoint. If someone says "God exists man, I just know it" and I say "Well that seems like kind of a myopic perspective." I'm not being condescending, just saying it's awfully near-sighted. Then I say "It seems to me that your feeling of God is the result of an engram of neurons associated with the feelings expected under the concept of God." That's not condescending, it's just a theory. It's probably true.
Bottom line, I'm not the only person that says things that can be interpreted as condescending.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
The only reason that no one has disputed cold hard facts is because most of us can't be bothered. The behaviour is offensive and bullying.
And as there isn't a thread safe from being bullied and hijacked, I reckon I'll be doing like practically everybody else around here and finding other more important things to do than reward bad behaviour.
Well isn't it a little ironic, mom. Who's bullying. You state social stereotypes and when I refute them as invalid with empirical data you get offended. Well, I get offended when your prejudice permeates the majority and causes unwarranted suffering.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Well isn't it a little ironic, mom. Who's bullying. You state social stereotypes and when I refute them as invalid with empirical data you get offended. Well, I get offended when your prejudice permeates the majority and causes unwarranted suffering.
Quite frankly I'm so over you this week I don't care if you are offended.
I'm not offended by your data. It's your behaviour and you're attitude I don't like. And I'm not alone.
You just keep bringing up your "facts" and other crap at unsuitable times and ramming them down everyone elses throats.
And you just keep on assuming that you've got me all worked out!
When will you spend some time on your highly inadequate people skills?
You have a Happy Easter there ahnimus. Alone, all on your own, talking to yourself.
You are being too reductionist. Taking the discussion back to these silly philosophical questions of what is self, do we really exist etc does not contribute, it just stifles and sidettracks. It's OK to make assumptions like "self" means me, Lucy the Lesbian Lover sitting in front of this computer, which fails a different test of self-awareness, which is this.
I can make a different decision each time in response to any given input stimulus. A computer cannot. If it's algorhithms tell it to do something, that's what it does.
I on the other hand, made a choice to respond to this thread when I saw new posts a few minutes ago. If there are new posts there when I finally submit this, I will make the decision to go for a shower and eat dinner instead, cos I can smell it, and it smells better than you do right now !!
So, if consciousness is dispersed throughout the brain, that implies that it is a multicellular function, so just how does a singel cell organism manage that ?? Further, does that include plants. A tree is certainly more complex than a bacteria, so is it self-aware too ?? I very much doubt it.
You are falling into the trap of thinking that all you know is all there is to know. It's one reason why a formal education would be good for you. At present you stick to finding out what you want to know, and you are not being forced to look at the rest of the picture.
There you go, a bit of condescencion coming right back at you, babe !!
I'll take your condescension and rebuttal as maturely as I can. The concept of a dispersed consciousness does not mean that all aspects of consciousness are dependent on each other, quite the opposite. It's also a matter of fact by the way, if you look into the work of Francis Crick after he identified the double-helix of DNA, he worked with Christof Koch to identify some of the neural correlates of consciousness and much of Koch's work is ongoing. What has been discovered is that inhibiting particular neurons dispersed across the brain causes specific conscious experiences to turn off. It's an empirically observable fact that consciousness is not localized. The idea of my concept was that these NCC evolve with particular functions and senses. So a bacteria who only requires basic pleasure and pain awareness, only has NCCs for basic pleasure and pain and only consciously experiences basic pleasure and pain. If you intended to refute my theory, you should have argued that there are no neurons in bacteria, it has no central nervous system. That would limit my theory to beings with a central nervous system.
Do your algorithms not tell you to do something? Computers make choices, the choices are determined by algorithms. How are your choices determined? By random? If you are impaled in the pre-frontal cortex like Phineas Gage, do you still retain your personality, or like Gage do you become a different person? Why don't you jab a sharp spike in your brain and see how well you make decisions. Might as well take your brain out completely, it only causes strokes, addictions, all that bad stuff. Apparently you can still make choices without it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Quite frankly I'm so over you this week I don't care if you are offended.
I'm not offended by your data. It's your behaviour and you're attitude I don't like. And I'm not alone.
You just keep bringing up your "facts" and other crap at unsuitable times and ramming them down everyone elses throats.
And you just keep on assuming that you've got me all worked out!
When will you spend some time on your highly inadequate people skills?
You have a Happy Easter there ahnimus. Alone, all on your own, talking to yourself.
Actually you have the problem with my facts. Whenever I post factual data someone attacks me personally. Seems more like jealousy from inadequacy to me. But I never intended to say so, you got my back against the wall here Jeanie.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'll take your condescension and rebuttal as maturely as I can. The concept of a dispersed consciousness does not mean that all aspects of consciousness are dependent on each other, quite the opposite. It's also a matter of fact by the way, if you look into the work of Francis Crick after he identified the double-helix of DNA, he worked with Christof Koch to identify some of the neural correlates of consciousness and much of Koch's work is ongoing. What has been discovered is that inhibiting particular neurons dispersed across the brain causes specific conscious experiences to turn off. It's an empirically observable fact that consciousness is not localized. The idea of my concept was that these NCC evolve with particular functions and senses. So a bacteria who only requires basic pleasure and pain awareness, only has NCCs for basic pleasure and pain and only consciously experiences basic pleasure and pain. If you intended to refute my theory, you should have argued that there are no neurons in bacteria, it has no central nervous system. That would limit my theory to beings with a central nervous system.
Do your algorithms not tell you to do something? Computers make choices, the choices are determined by algorithms. How are your choices determined? By random? If you are impaled in the pre-frontal cortex like Phineas Gage, do you still retain your personality, or like Gage do you become a different person? Why don't you jab a sharp spike in your brain and see how well you make decisions. Might as well take your brain out completely, it only causes strokes, addictions, all that bad stuff. Apparently you can still make choices without it.
I think you are taking me too seriously. I was not disputing that consciousness is dispersed. I could have noted that a CNS is required for the above things, but I chose a different tack. I "should" not have done anything specific, or indeed predictable. I guess that is my point, computers only do predictable things, I can do both predictable and unpredictable things. This interaction is an emergent system, you have to wait and see what happens before you can predict the outcome. My choices are determined by my whim, rather than being determined by exrinsic influences.
I am not interested in being wrong or right, more interested in teh process of discussion rather than the outcome. I think that is the basis of the flak you are copping at present. You are very focussed on the end point of the argument, whereas I am not arguing at all, just throwing iodeas around for FUN !!!!!
Personally, I really don't like to argue at all, it is quite pointless, and even through discussion, I never, ever expect to change anyone's point of view about anything.
Actually you have the problem with my facts. Whenever I post factual data someone attacks me personally. Seems more like jealousy from inadequacy to me. But I never intended to say so, you got my back against the wall here Jeanie.
So now you are claiming psychic abilities to go with that mighty intellect of yours? You know I have a problem with your facts? And you know I'm feeling jealous because I feel inadequate? Hmmmm......interesting.
Well I'll tell you the sad thing about all this ahnimus. I don't have a problem with your facts, you seem to have a problem when I dispute them. And it seems that you assume my position on things based on my clearly ineffectual communication. And you've been very wrong.
My problem will always be and has always been with your delivery and your timing and your seeming lack of respect for other people's ideas, beliefs and opinions. It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to belittle others.
So my question to you is, what is the point of delivering facts if you can't share the information with others and benefit from the exchange of ideas?
It's the absoluteness I have a problem with. And the idea that because you supposedly understand something that you are intellectually superior to the rest of us. In plain English, I object to your inability to "play nice" sometimes. And the reason I object so strongly is because I expect better of you. All the smarts in the world is useless to you if you don't have emotional smarts. And in order to communicate with people you have to give and take. As far as I can see, and again it's just my pathetically inadequate opinion, you are going to find it awfully lonely talking to no one.
And if I'm not interested in listening to you when you are pushing so hard to get your point across, believe me there will be people that got there long before me.
So you have to ask yourself, of the people you have upset this week, and I would be one of those, do you care or not? Because if you don't care I'd say go on the way you are. But if you give a little shit about the people you talk to here then I suggest, actually I implore you, to be kinder, more aware of others around you and perhaps then you might find that people are more willing to listen to what you have to say and attempt to understand it.
You might even find that you have things to learn about communicating.
For your sake I would hope that you do. You are smart and I believe you are doing yourself a huge diservice in your current efforts. Anyway, that's my two bob. I hope that you understand what I am saying to you here and don't take it as a personal attack on you. It's my very strong objection to your behaviour.
You are being too reductionist. Taking the discussion back to these silly philosophical questions of what is self, do we really exist etc does not contribute, it just stifles and sidettracks. It's OK to make assumptions like "self" means me, Lucy the Lesbian Lover sitting in front of this computer, which fails a different test of self-awareness, which is this.
I can make a different decision each time in response to any given input stimulus. A computer cannot. If it's algorhithms tell it to do something, that's what it does.
I on the other hand, made a choice to respond to this thread when I saw new posts a few minutes ago. If there are new posts there when I finally submit this, I will make the decision to go for a shower and eat dinner instead, cos I can smell it, and it smells better than you do right now !!
So, if consciousness is dispersed throughout the brain, that implies that it is a multicellular function, so just how does a singel cell organism manage that ?? Further, does that include plants. A tree is certainly more complex than a bacteria, so is it self-aware too ?? I very much doubt it.
You are falling into the trap of thinking that all you know is all there is to know. It's one reason why a formal education would be good for you. At present you stick to finding out what you want to know, and you are not being forced to look at the rest of the picture.
There you go, a bit of condescencion coming right back at you, babe !!
Very nice, Lucy! Reductionism is a big issue. I like that even though you see things differently than I do, you can navigate the differences by understanding what you've said here re: recognizing the bigger picture. You show you can see many sides and angles, even though you may have your own natural bent.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
This interaction is an emergent system, you have to wait and see what happens before you can predict the outcome.
I completely agree with you. I see that it happens complementary to determinents, and that it is emergent. Also, I thank you for pointing to the concept to begin with.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Actually you have the problem with my facts. Whenever I post factual data someone attacks me personally. Seems more like jealousy from inadequacy to me. But I never intended to say so, you got my back against the wall here Jeanie.
Your natural style here is to focus predominantly on the facts. That's your strong natural preference and that's great and you need not change for anyone. Jeanie's natural style and preference is to prioritize the human aspect of the interaction. You genuinely are uninterested in the human aspects of this stuff--you don't prioritize it. Jeanie is the opposite. Her natural preference is who she is and she need not change who she is for anyone. You are both fully entitled to your acceptable natural preferences. This isn't about jealousy and inadequacy at all. It's about two people who are unable to connect and navigate those basic differences successfully, in order to resolve communication differences and get back to the points at hand. There are two people who are equally responsible at this level of the debate: both Jeanie and yourself.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Very nice, Lucy! Reductionism is a big issue. I like that even though you see things differently than I do, you can navigate the differences by understanding what you've said here re: recognizing the bigger picture. You show you can see many sides and angles, even though you may have your own natural bent.
Reductionism isn't a big issue. If you think reductionism is a threat to your perception, then maybe something is wrong with your perception. Both the whole and the sum of it's parts should be equivelant. I don't see a problem with that. Perhaps you can elaborate on your distaste for reductionism.
Perhaps we should define reductionism. Is reductionism saying that 2 is the equivelant of 1 plus 1. Or is reductionism saying that 2 is the result of a singularity, reducing the explanation of a whole to none other than the whole, that to me is reductionism. Like suggesting that all the complexity of the universe is reducable to one all-powerful entity. Or maybe that's exterme over-simplification.
Anyway with out the former definition of reductionism, we'd all be dead from an infectious disease. Because all of science is based on reductionism, and science saves lives.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Spend some time on your posts and maybe they will feel more powerful to you. Then you won't feel like I'm condescending. Don't mistake your timidity for my courage. I spend a lot of time behind my posts reading and researching the topics. I post facts. I bring them together in a theory. Most of the responses are absolute speculation from personal experience and invalid. What kind of a debate has people pulling rabbits out of their hats, this isn't a magic show, bring something real to the table.
I try to provide detailed explanations linked to credible sources. I'm not about to back down from everything because someone has a difference of opinion. Especially when they don't really know what they are talking about. Whatever your profession is, if it's pharmacology, or automotive, you know when someone is full of shit. Well I know when someone is full of it too.
you provide numbers and theories, people here provide what really happens in people's lives. to say that is not "real" is simply ridiculous.
Comments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMqR7-ja_iI
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness.
It is common belief that consciousness is the Cartesian Theatre, where consciousness converges at some point in the brain. This is factually inaccurate, consciousness is not a localized phenomena, it's dispersed throughout the brain. It's out of necessity that we are conscious, just as dogs, cats, dolphins, birds and fruitflies are conscious at different levels. It's my belief that humans have always been sentient and through evolution gradually developed a self-awareness. I don't believe there was a first human to experience this phenomena.
It's not ego, it's an acknowledgement of what is.
Knowing that my emotional capacity is degraded from prior events does not damage my ego either.
Well I for one am a big fan of the lightbulb going off theory.
I think of it this way; essentially....the sensory organ called the eyeball in a particular individual looked around one day and said....HOLY SWEET #@!$ SHIT!!! just like is still happening all the time in people today.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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True, would it be the same as your cat chasing a laser pointer? Essentially they are saying "Holy shit, what's that? Get it!"
Cat's are magnificent to watch in the wild. I made a lure for my cat. I took a piece of black material and stuffed with catnip, tied on a 5 inch black tail and connected that all up to a fishing rod.
I can get some pretty nice casts in my basement. Sometimes I sit on the back deck and cast out into the back yard (especially around dusk), and the cat goes totally nuts. It's pretty hilarious. I used to train him all the time during TV commercials, and whenever. It's therapeutic...it makes you laugh your ass off.
Long story short, I turned my cat into an athlete. He catches flies in midair and eats them, Last summer he brings me this fucking huge pigeon down into the basement and drops it right at my feet. I still can't even understand how heck he fit it in his mouth. It was alive and ok, just stunned as hell, so I carried it back outsize and it flew off a few mins later.
I think more than a few mammals are sentient. Cats and dogs especially.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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( o.O)
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it's patting yourself on the back and making the same kind of sweepingly conclusory statements the religious people you love to hate specialize in.
Now your passing judgement on things you can't possibly know. How rude!
i can possibly know, becos i read your posts. and your consistent claims that you know more than everyone else and that your way of seeing the world is the only way that makes any sense is as ridiculous and arrogant and narrow-minded as the religious people who claim the same thing.
when i read your posts ryan i sometimes came face to face with a condescending attitude. the connotation of which is that what you post is of greater import and gravity than what anyone else is posting. like soulsinging, i call that ego. and you know we all got one.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
It is interesting to contemplate self-awareness in animals. I dispute the common belief that only orangutangs are.
My dogs are definitelt self-aware when they are with us. This is not apparent if they are in a boarding kennel for a few weeks, then they lose it, but they get it back again after a short period back home. Mr Plod had a cold once and did this massive sneeze and got snot all over his face. His expression was priceless, clearly saying, "get this shit off my face".
Mind is contagious !!
You can easily see embarrassment in my stallions/colts if they make a mistake or do something silly like fall over on slippery ground, or get chastised too hard for something.
Jari used to run off and hide in his stable if he got embarrassed. Other complex emotions are less evident, though fear and anger are easy to see.
I suggest that self-awareness is essential before you can feel embarrassment.
Can you post some pics of this ??? I would love to see your cat flying !!
Spend some time on your posts and maybe they will feel more powerful to you. Then you won't feel like I'm condescending. Don't mistake your timidity for my courage. I spend a lot of time behind my posts reading and researching the topics. I post facts. I bring them together in a theory. Most of the responses are absolute speculation from personal experience and invalid. What kind of a debate has people pulling rabbits out of their hats, this isn't a magic show, bring something real to the table.
I try to provide detailed explanations linked to credible sources. I'm not about to back down from everything because someone has a difference of opinion. Especially when they don't really know what they are talking about. Whatever your profession is, if it's pharmacology, or automotive, you know when someone is full of shit. Well I know when someone is full of it too.
Awareness of the self is an interesting thing. We could probably talk for hours about two completely different things. First of all, what is self? If it's our entire being from head to toe, body and mind, then of course animals are self-aware, so are computers. A computer software is written to detect input from it's organs, that makes it a sentient being, and self-aware. We just have a more complex software, far superior than modern computers or any other specie for that matter. I have no doubt that some animals have consciousness' more closely resembling ours, but on the other hand, I don't think chickens are all there. Being that consciousness/self-awareness is dispersed throughout the brain, I believe consciousness is just a function of brain processing. Our brains are aware of what our brains are doing, so it only makes sense that that would be consciousness. It just happens that not everything gets heard as loudly, or due to time constraints things are filtered. I don't know, but there is no doubt in my mind that all living organisms down to bacteria are self-aware.
Maybe it's just the way you are reading it.
i've been called a lot of things in my life ryan, but timid is not one of them.
and i will always find you condescending. youve proven that time and time again regardless of the topic. you hide behind cold hard facts even when a little compassion is called for.
half the time i dont even know what your thinking is on a particular subject, you're so wrapped up in your links and wikipedia and so called sources. i want to know what ryan thinks, not what he thinks he should think.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
The only reason that no one has disputed cold hard facts is because most of us can't be bothered. The behaviour is offensive and bullying.
And as there isn't a thread safe from being bullied and hijacked, I reckon I'll be doing like practically everybody else around here and finding other more important things to do than reward bad behaviour.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
You are being too reductionist. Taking the discussion back to these silly philosophical questions of what is self, do we really exist etc does not contribute, it just stifles and sidettracks. It's OK to make assumptions like "self" means me, Lucy the Lesbian Lover sitting in front of this computer, which fails a different test of self-awareness, which is this.
I can make a different decision each time in response to any given input stimulus. A computer cannot. If it's algorhithms tell it to do something, that's what it does.
I on the other hand, made a choice to respond to this thread when I saw new posts a few minutes ago. If there are new posts there when I finally submit this, I will make the decision to go for a shower and eat dinner instead, cos I can smell it, and it smells better than you do right now !!
So, if consciousness is dispersed throughout the brain, that implies that it is a multicellular function, so just how does a singel cell organism manage that ?? Further, does that include plants. A tree is certainly more complex than a bacteria, so is it self-aware too ?? I very much doubt it.
You are falling into the trap of thinking that all you know is all there is to know. It's one reason why a formal education would be good for you. At present you stick to finding out what you want to know, and you are not being forced to look at the rest of the picture.
There you go, a bit of condescencion coming right back at you, babe !!
I'm not hiding behind anything. Don't you think that statement is also condescending? You are some how unveiled and I am hiding?
I have nothing to hide, I've posted my most embarassing and degrading moments, as well as my most amazing experiences. I've shared everything down to my full name and address. I am not hiding anything Cate. That's the difference, I'm not shying away from the threat of offending someone with my viewpoint. I won't be afraid of so-called "Common-sense" and other social prejudices.
There are 3 things you don't talk about at work, sex, politics and religion. That's why I'm here. Although, I still do talk about it at work :*( But anyway, I don't see why I can't post links, quote information and express a viewpoint. If someone says "God exists man, I just know it" and I say "Well that seems like kind of a myopic perspective." I'm not being condescending, just saying it's awfully near-sighted. Then I say "It seems to me that your feeling of God is the result of an engram of neurons associated with the feelings expected under the concept of God." That's not condescending, it's just a theory. It's probably true.
Bottom line, I'm not the only person that says things that can be interpreted as condescending.
Well isn't it a little ironic, mom. Who's bullying. You state social stereotypes and when I refute them as invalid with empirical data you get offended. Well, I get offended when your prejudice permeates the majority and causes unwarranted suffering.
Quite frankly I'm so over you this week I don't care if you are offended.
I'm not offended by your data. It's your behaviour and you're attitude I don't like. And I'm not alone.
You just keep bringing up your "facts" and other crap at unsuitable times and ramming them down everyone elses throats.
And you just keep on assuming that you've got me all worked out!
When will you spend some time on your highly inadequate people skills?
You have a Happy Easter there ahnimus. Alone, all on your own, talking to yourself.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I'll take your condescension and rebuttal as maturely as I can. The concept of a dispersed consciousness does not mean that all aspects of consciousness are dependent on each other, quite the opposite. It's also a matter of fact by the way, if you look into the work of Francis Crick after he identified the double-helix of DNA, he worked with Christof Koch to identify some of the neural correlates of consciousness and much of Koch's work is ongoing. What has been discovered is that inhibiting particular neurons dispersed across the brain causes specific conscious experiences to turn off. It's an empirically observable fact that consciousness is not localized. The idea of my concept was that these NCC evolve with particular functions and senses. So a bacteria who only requires basic pleasure and pain awareness, only has NCCs for basic pleasure and pain and only consciously experiences basic pleasure and pain. If you intended to refute my theory, you should have argued that there are no neurons in bacteria, it has no central nervous system. That would limit my theory to beings with a central nervous system.
Do your algorithms not tell you to do something? Computers make choices, the choices are determined by algorithms. How are your choices determined? By random? If you are impaled in the pre-frontal cortex like Phineas Gage, do you still retain your personality, or like Gage do you become a different person? Why don't you jab a sharp spike in your brain and see how well you make decisions. Might as well take your brain out completely, it only causes strokes, addictions, all that bad stuff. Apparently you can still make choices without it.
Actually you have the problem with my facts. Whenever I post factual data someone attacks me personally. Seems more like jealousy from inadequacy to me. But I never intended to say so, you got my back against the wall here Jeanie.
I think you are taking me too seriously. I was not disputing that consciousness is dispersed. I could have noted that a CNS is required for the above things, but I chose a different tack. I "should" not have done anything specific, or indeed predictable. I guess that is my point, computers only do predictable things, I can do both predictable and unpredictable things. This interaction is an emergent system, you have to wait and see what happens before you can predict the outcome. My choices are determined by my whim, rather than being determined by exrinsic influences.
I am not interested in being wrong or right, more interested in teh process of discussion rather than the outcome. I think that is the basis of the flak you are copping at present. You are very focussed on the end point of the argument, whereas I am not arguing at all, just throwing iodeas around for FUN !!!!!
Personally, I really don't like to argue at all, it is quite pointless, and even through discussion, I never, ever expect to change anyone's point of view about anything.
So now you are claiming psychic abilities to go with that mighty intellect of yours? You know I have a problem with your facts? And you know I'm feeling jealous because I feel inadequate? Hmmmm......interesting.
Well I'll tell you the sad thing about all this ahnimus. I don't have a problem with your facts, you seem to have a problem when I dispute them. And it seems that you assume my position on things based on my clearly ineffectual communication. And you've been very wrong.
My problem will always be and has always been with your delivery and your timing and your seeming lack of respect for other people's ideas, beliefs and opinions. It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to belittle others.
So my question to you is, what is the point of delivering facts if you can't share the information with others and benefit from the exchange of ideas?
It's the absoluteness I have a problem with. And the idea that because you supposedly understand something that you are intellectually superior to the rest of us. In plain English, I object to your inability to "play nice" sometimes. And the reason I object so strongly is because I expect better of you. All the smarts in the world is useless to you if you don't have emotional smarts. And in order to communicate with people you have to give and take. As far as I can see, and again it's just my pathetically inadequate opinion, you are going to find it awfully lonely talking to no one.
And if I'm not interested in listening to you when you are pushing so hard to get your point across, believe me there will be people that got there long before me.
So you have to ask yourself, of the people you have upset this week, and I would be one of those, do you care or not? Because if you don't care I'd say go on the way you are. But if you give a little shit about the people you talk to here then I suggest, actually I implore you, to be kinder, more aware of others around you and perhaps then you might find that people are more willing to listen to what you have to say and attempt to understand it.
You might even find that you have things to learn about communicating.
For your sake I would hope that you do. You are smart and I believe you are doing yourself a huge diservice in your current efforts. Anyway, that's my two bob. I hope that you understand what I am saying to you here and don't take it as a personal attack on you. It's my very strong objection to your behaviour.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Reductionism isn't a big issue. If you think reductionism is a threat to your perception, then maybe something is wrong with your perception. Both the whole and the sum of it's parts should be equivelant. I don't see a problem with that. Perhaps you can elaborate on your distaste for reductionism.
Perhaps we should define reductionism. Is reductionism saying that 2 is the equivelant of 1 plus 1. Or is reductionism saying that 2 is the result of a singularity, reducing the explanation of a whole to none other than the whole, that to me is reductionism. Like suggesting that all the complexity of the universe is reducable to one all-powerful entity. Or maybe that's exterme over-simplification.
Anyway with out the former definition of reductionism, we'd all be dead from an infectious disease. Because all of science is based on reductionism, and science saves lives.
you provide numbers and theories, people here provide what really happens in people's lives. to say that is not "real" is simply ridiculous.