all it takes for something to exist is...
catefrances
Posts: 29,003
...for someone to believe it does. agree/disagree?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
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in reality...disagree
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
then i stand by my previous post which addresses a question I'd rather answer
thoughts can become reality
the mind is more powerful than we can suppose
I always thought this smacked of overwhelming human arrogance. Unless it is witnessed by a human, it fif not happen.
I'm inclined to think that just thinking some thing exists, does not really make it exist.
For example, I just thought about a disastrous house fire started by a careless cigarette solving my little legal problem, but sadly, I can't hear fire engines yet !!
The image was quite vivd though, and very real to me, i can even hera the crackling and burning. The occupnats are already dead from smoke inhalation though, so there are no screams.
i agree lucy. my answer to the tree falling in the forest question is always a resounding YES. our absence doesn't negate the existence of sound.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Disagree.
The two worlds are on completely different planes and are governed by completely different sets of rules... which do not apply in the other's.
Example 1: We believed there were WMDs in Iraq. This belief failed to materialize.
If the belief is based on a lie... the only thing that exists is the lie.
But, if the person telling the lie truely believed there WERE WMDs in Iraq... the lie does not exist, yet, the WMDs still fail to materialize.
Example 2: I believe someone loves me. That does not mean love exists.
Example 3: Someone truely believes in God and/or that Jesus was the Messiah... it exists only in the believer. His belief does not apply to anyone else. He may believe it is real and the truth, but in this physical plane of existance, it is only true to him.
Hail, Hail!!!
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
but one plane's set of rules does not negate the other's surely?
who's truth is the correct truth? who's reality are we dealing with here? is it even possible to determine beyond a shadow of a doubt? God only needs to exist within a specific person to be real to that person. it doesn't matter what others believe. afterall isn't it about personal salvation?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Yes.
Truth, in regards to humans, is relative... not absolute. The absolute truths are found in mathematics.
That being the case... the relative truth that follows the rules of the plane of existance that exists on this planet, at this time and in this space. Like, the person that sets off a bomb in a department store may truely believe he is doing what God commands him. His truth does not apply to the rest of the planet. In his heart and mind... the voice he hears is God. Still, we don't let him off the hook for his relative truth.
And for all we know... he MAY be right and God is, in fact, ordering him to place the bomb to do God's will (you know, working in mysterious ways and all that stuff) and the rest of the world has it wrong. But, it STILL doesn't matter because his actions do not apply to the rules of this level of existance.
Hail, Hail!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
just because someone believes in the tooth fairy doesn't necessarily mean that it ACTUALLY exists. it may exist in the mind of the person, but that is it. even if it exists in the mind of the person, it doesn't mean it's the actual truth.
Real to a person is not the smae as "exists".
In ll these metapysical discussions, at some point a definition of "reality" would be useful.
Reality needs to have elements of reproducibility, tangibility and to be detectable or appreciated by more than one person or means.
For the exercise, I tried a dictionary
reality, realness, realism -- the state of being actual or real; "the reality of his situation slowly dawned on him"
reality -- the state of the world as it really is rather than as you might want it to be; "businessmen have to face harsh realities"
reality -- the quality possessed by something that is real
I don't think they are great definitions, as the main descriptor used, is "reality", which is a bit circular.
I think using some kind of external reference point is an important part of the definition.
Saying real to me, makes it real is akin to saying "normla for me". chalres MAnson was normla for Charlie, but reference to an external point quickly suggests that is not normal at all.
The physical aspects of this planet within the Universe. The things that occupy a space at this time and create the environment in which we live.
The facts that go along with this physical environment... life and death, gravity, mass, density... that kind of stuff.
Like, gravity will always win in this environment, regardless if you believe you can fly off the roof of the local Holiday Inn. Belief or not, you're getting damaged. And the absolute fact that we all are going to die... you, me, Eddie, Bush, Paris Hilton, my cat, everyone... there is no denying that. What happens after we die? No one knows... no one has ever come back and said, "Hey, guys... here's how it all goes down...". Yeah, "Near death Experiences"... but, how different are near death experiences from alien abductions? Again, relative truths belonging to individuals.
That is the level of existance I'm talking about.
Hail, Hail!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
i think; therefore i am.
1 + 1 = 2
There is no arguement that negates that. This is a statement of absolute truth.
The Ten Commandments. What about the not working on the Sabbath? How much truth is applied there?
...
Again, I am not knocking the Ten Commandments. I believe the world would be a better place if we didn't kill or steal (including the killing and stealing that is being done in our name, as our nation). Maybe if we all followed the Golden Rule and followed the Ten Commandments, we all be better off. Still, even if we did... that would not prove there is a God... just as our disregard of the Ten Commandments does not negate His existance.
Hail, Hail!!!
Math has reproducibility and it's reality can be tested against external refernece points
The Ten Commandments certainly exist too, as real words on real paper. Whether that means they were divine instructions from a god is an entirely different argument.
So, in terms of Cosmo's definition of what is real, it also includes symbols that represent concepts.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
So, this definition of reality is a slippery littel sucker, but that thing about symbols helps, because that is an externalization of something which one person experiences. If an idea can't be externalised, then it is less likely to be real. Staying with the example, both math and the Ten Commandments are externalised representations of thought, which have tangible meaning to other people, so can both be considered real and to exist.
By contrast, a visual hallucination or a fantasy like my house burning one, can not be externalised, and are thereofre not real, nor do they "exist".
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
ex·ist audio (g-zst) KEY
intr.v.
ex·ist·ed , ex·ist·ing , ex·ists
1. To have actual being; be real.
2. To have life; live: one of the worst actors that ever existed.
3. To live at a minimal level; subsist: barely enough income on which to exist.
4. To continue to be; persist: old customs that still exist in rural areas.
5. To be present under certain circumstances or in a specified place; occur: "Wealth and poverty exist in every demographic category" (Thomas G. Exter).
I was just going to agree, but after reading the definition of reality and thinking about it some more I wasn't so sure. Looking at these definitions, I would say yes under #5 and maybe #4.
Oh Jesus, here we go again............the existential question, do I really exist, or am I just a figment of imagination ???
I'm gonna apologise for being a prick for the next few days, but I have had a bad day and I have a putrid headache, but here we go !!
NO, you don't exist, you are just an organised mess of prorons, neutrons, elctrons, quarks, squarks and squibs. There is no real substance to your substance. I could fire a spray of neutrinos through your so called substance and not hit a single damn sub-atomic thing, thus proving you are just moving walking talking hot nothing, not even air.
Hell, I can't even decide if you are a particle or a wave.
Or, you could put your hand in your pants, and fiddle around for a while, and decide for yourself if you exist or not.
Either you and I exist, or the appearance of this rant on the scrennin front of you is just a random occurrence.
Maybe I am Moloch the Computer Demon !!
Woah girl, I am still trying to work on the definition of real. It's far from decided.
I seem to have misplaced a post where I fully recognized the reality of ideas and abstract thought, using teh examoples of wealth, poverty and customs. I am still thinking that teh abilitiy to exteranlize an idea and share it with other people through speeech, written symbol or other means gives it a reality as part of our collective extelligence.
An inability to do this, where a perception or thought is entirely within one person, and unable to be shared or externalized would seem much less real to me, and therefore be said not to exist, other than as a perception of that person.
Actually... Math translates into and represents the real and physical environment in which we exist. Whereas, One Apple plus One Apple equals Two Apples. There is not denial, no arguement that can dispute that statement. We can discuss whether the apples exist or don't exist... or whether you and everyone else in this entire Universe exists only in the conscienous of my mind... the fact remains... one plus one equals two. This is a Universal truth.
God, being this intangible entity that only exists as a concept, cannot be proven... nor can He be dis-proven. God is an relative, or subjective, truth. We choose whether or not to believe. My beliefs do not apply Universally... just as everyone else's beliefs. People may hold their belief in God and 'The Truth'... and to them, it IS the truth. But, it is not the truth to everyone. Their idea of God, does not apply to me.
...
Me? I believe in God... but, not the petty human-like being as described in the Bible and other religious texts. My God accepts me... even if I question His very existance. My God does not sit in judgement of my faith or lack thereof... rather, the character of my being. This is why I am God-Loving, rather than God-fearing.
I don't know what happens when we die. All I know as a fact is that I am going to die. I cannot change that fact, no matter what I believe. So, all I know is that death is a passage... either to another level of conscienousness or existance... or into an eternal void. Other than that.. I basically know that I don't know.
Yeah... I can 'Hope' for things... but, the bottom line... I don't know. and I know that no one else knows. Leastwise, no one I hve met or read about or heard about. It's all conjecture based upon belief.
Hail, Hail!!!