why do you believe in God or...

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

that makes no sense. i don't want a cookie right NOW. does that mean i'll never want a cookie again or that i'm afraid to eat cookies?

is dying as meaningless as a cookie? cause if you're going to compare it to a cookie then yeah dying wouldn't be such a big deal.

semantics. it amounts to the same thing. i don't care what you call it... instinct for survival, desire to live. neither one is indicative of a fear of death, only a thirst for life.

since we're talking about semantics here, there are different ways to read into fear. like the fear in God, it's much different to your fear in bugs. our fear of death has it's own meaning.

i guess you're looking at fear in a different way as opposed to what i'm reading into it. i'm looking at it in a natural way. why's that hard to accept, or how does that make my argument a logical fallacy?

my scenario about a person on the job. does wanting a promotion or the further satisfaction in your job mean you are afraid of not having a job? ambition can exist separate from fear. but don't worry about it.

it's kinda like the cookie argument... job does not equate to death. but it's hard to explain that to someone who considers a playground equal to dying. not that i'd get the creeps when i die... but i revere death much more than you do.

now i have no question, you DO lack the intellectual power to show me how that scenario is different. you demonstrated that lack here:

you silly ..... maybe i should provide references everytime i say something. why we have natural functions in our brains that make us to react in ways towards dying the way we do are beyond me. that's like asking me what our purpose on earth is. thus, it just is. just like nature/god decided the grass to be the color green and the sky blue. it just is.

yup, about what i suspected. that's got to be the most stunning display of rational argument i've ever read here. i'm humbled, truly, by your incedible powers of reasoning. who can argue with that kind of logic? your points are irrefutable. it was so simple the whole time! it just is!

so then we don't have a survival instinct?

wait... i can do this... everyone is NOT afraid of dying. how do i know? it just is!

not unless we had some kind of instinct of where our objective was to die then i'd believe you.... otherwise it's not.

believe me now?

no sorry i'm not

maybe that they would like to keep living more than than they would like to die. i like pearl jam better than nirvana... does that mean i hate or fear nirvana? of course not, a preference for one option over another does not indicate a distaste for the other option.

well, some people are suicidal. i know that. but get a normal person... ok... here's this example. if you had to choose between..... i don't know...... getting a finger chopped off... or getting your head chopped off which one would you choose?

pearl jam and nirvana is a very mediocre way of looking at it.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

nope. just more final. dying is just another event in life. similar to marriage, having kids, a crippling accident, or whatever else. it's just less reversible. it is just a stroll in the park to me. just another possible event in the course of my life. the only difference is it is inevitably the last one. i don't want to get married right now either. does that mean i'm afraid of marriage? i'd rather not have kids right now. does that mean i'm afraid of kids and never want to have them?

see... i understand this. it's the way i look at dying. although, it's not a stroll in the park... i revere it... and i fear it... not in a creepy, spooky or eerie way. fear in a different sense. but while i'm alive i'd like to live as long as i can and i'd avoid every opportunity that brings me closer to dying.... because it's part of being human. you can't agree with that?

absolutist in what sense?

nevermind... i meant to use something else.

callen

deadnothingbetter wrote:

yep.... it's what i've been saying. instinctively, we fear death.

.

not true.....maybe not too thrilled at the pain that goes along with dying...but actually being dead....your dead....done...finished...cease to exist...why fear nothing???

deadnothingbetter

callen wrote:

not true.....maybe not too thrilled at the pain that goes along with dying...but actually being dead....your dead....done...finished...cease to exist...why fear nothing???

i'm speaking about while you're still alive.

and actually at the moment when we die our brains release chemicals that give a very pleasant feeling. so there's really no pain in dying.

callen

deadnothingbetter wrote:

see... i understand this. it's the way i look at dying. although, it's not a stroll in the park... i revere it... and i fear it... not in a creepy, spooky or eerie way. fear in a different sense. but while i'm alive i'd like to live as long as i can and i'd avoid every opportunity that brings me closer to dying.... because it's part of being human. you can't agree with that?

nevermind... i meant to use something else.

you only fear death cause you've bought into the fable...

deadnothingbetter

callen wrote:

you only fear death cause you've bought into the fable...

what fable?

r u going to start this argument with me too?? do you also lack survival instincts?

callen

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i'm speaking about while you're still alive.

and actually at the moment when we die our brains release chemicals that give a very pleasant feeling. so there's really no pain in dying.

hear what your saying.........I have no fear of death..none. Many of my friends feel the same way..you said it was instinctive..and I disagree

hippiemom

deadnothingbetter wrote:

ok.... convince me then

convince me that dying isn't something to fear.

why do we take care of our health? why do we have government? why do we have a survival instinct? why do we get scared when we get attacked by a dog, a criminal, or a hurricane? why do we get an adrenaline rush when we're in a car accident or in some form of catastrophe?

explain that, cause i just don't get it.

and frankly, this sounds like a lot of bullshit to me.

For me, it's more of a fear of pain than a fear of death. No, of course I don't want to be gnawed to death by a dog, that would hurt like hell.

I have been in several situations where I wished for death, because the pain was so intense I didn't want to tolerate it anymore.

It's almost certain that I'm going to die relatively soon, and I'm not afraid, although I'm very much afraid of what I'm going to have to go through before I get there.

deadnothingbetter

hippiemom wrote:

For me, it's more of a fear of pain than a fear of death. No, of course I don't want to be gnawed to death by a dog, that would hurt like hell.

I have been in several situations where I wished for death, because the pain was so intense I didn't want to tolerate it anymore.

It's almost certain that I'm going to die relatively soon, and I'm not afraid, although I'm very much afraid of what I'm going to have to go through before I get there.

see... i can understand this. this is very different.

i guess there's a thin line between an emotional fear and an instinctive fear. i don't have an emotional fear.... yea, i'll get sad if i'm about to die but only cause i wouldn't like to see my relatives suffer. i wouldn't get creeped out at dying. but my instinctive fear of dying is what keeps me safe and away from harm.

deadnothingbetter

callen wrote:

hear what your saying.........I have no fear of death..none. Many of my friends feel the same way..you said it was instinctive..and I disagree

like i mentioned to hippiemom... in terms of the emotional fear i have none. just like you. but our instinctive fear is what makes us look both ways before crossing the street, having good eating habits and taking a trip to the doctor once a year.

callen

deadnothingbetter wrote:

what fable?

r u going to start this argument with me too?? do you also lack survival instincts?

what do you fear exactly???

I very much believe in survival instict....that's different than fearing death....fear is instilled...learned.....

fable...the whole judgement, heaven hell fable...or guess maybe mythology is better term...you choose.

callen

deadnothingbetter wrote:

like i mentioned to hippiemom... in terms of the emotional fear i have none. just like you. but our instinctive fear is what makes us look both ways before crossing the street, having good eating habits and taking a trip to the doctor once a year.

exactly....I agree 100% and since I haven't experienced being dead...I have no reason to fear it.......I've learned going to the dr can be painful...I've seen a person that was run over by a bus and lay dead on the street...so I know to fear.....now death.....I've not experienced it..and what "some" folks tell me about death is absulutely rubbish...as they don't know...so I don't fear it...now I want to go on living as long as possible...cause I'll get to the other state eventually...but no fear.

deadnothingbetter

callen wrote:

what do you fear exactly???

i dont know... dying???

I very much believe in survival instict....that's different than fearing death....fear is instilled...learned.....

well, again... like i said. not fear as in getting the creeps but fear as in a form of natural instincts in order to survive. it's inside us all... no matter how anyone puts it. like the victims of 9/11 you think they were happy to be there? or like the many 9-1-1 calls that have been made many of which people cried to on the phone saying, "i don't wanna die."

or even where i used to work... poor people were so suicidal but in some weird way they didn't wanna die. their logic was "i don't wanna die but the best way is get rid of my life." or others were, "i wanna die but i don't wanna kill myself." either way... death is something that we naturally avoid.

fable...the whole judgement, heaven hell fable...or guess maybe mythology is better term...you choose.

my personal beliefs are out of the question.... even though this is a thread about believing in God or not, it's got nothing to do with it.

cause personally my faith is would actually rid me of my fear in death... in fact, the only reason why i don't fear death is because of my faith.

deadnothingbetter

callen wrote:

exactly....I agree 100% and since I haven't experienced being dead...I have no reason to fear it.......I've learned going to the dr can be painful...I've seen a person that was run over by a bus and lay dead on the street...so I know to fear.....now death.....I've not experienced it..and what "some" folks tell me about death is absulutely rubbish...as they don't know...so I don't fear it...now I want to go on living as long as possible...cause I'll get to the other state eventually...but no fear.

yeah, totally... i don't fear it either. and i know, i know, i'm kinda not making any sense by saying, "i fear death but i don't fear it". but i have a point. i'm saying that instinctively we have a survival mode that i'd attribute it to a natural fear... but emotionally death is something that just comes about every single day and someday it will be my turn. in that sense, i don't fear it.

i'm glad i'm finally agreeing with someone here. it feels good in some weird way.

hippiemom

baraka wrote:

The two times I came close to death (at least in my eyes), I have to admit, I was quite scared. Scared about the possible traumatic injuries, feared I would never see my loved ones again, etc. So many things ran through my mind in a short time period, probably seconds. That saying, 'your life flashing before your eyes' was quite accurate for me. I don't sit around fearing death at all, I don't think about it actually, although I think I probably take the appropriate subliminal precautions to prevent it. But when I was faced with it unexpected, I was pretty frightened. I think it is an instinctual fear, perhaps.

Nice post, baraka, very honest.

I guess I should clear up what I mean by "fear of death." When I was violently attacked, I was very much afraid at first, but I was more afraid of what he might do to me and how much it would hurt than I was of dying. As it went on I got more and more scared, including being afraid of never seeing my friends and family again. Eventually I reached a point where I was thinking "Oh please just let me die now, I can't take this anymore." When I went unconscious, I thought I was dying and I was glad. So there was a fear of dying there for a little while, but that was overcome by a fear of living when life got bad enough.

When I got cancer I wasn't really afraid of dying, and some of my treatments have made me wish I'd die real soon. My main motivator to stay alive at this point is my kids ... my wish to see them, and knowing how upset they will be when I'm gone. If I didn't have kids, I probably would have done myself in by now. I can't really do anything other than lie in bed and feel like shit, there's not much of a point to this life.

callen

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i dont know... dying???

well, again... like i said. not fear as in getting the creeps but fear as in a form of natural instincts in order to survive. it's inside us all... no matter how anyone puts it. like the victims of 9/11 you think they were happy to be there? or like the many 9-1-1 calls that have been made many of which people cried to on the phone saying, "i don't wanna die."

or even where i used to work... poor people were so suicidal but in some weird way they didn't wanna die. their logic was "i don't wanna die but the best way is get rid of my life." or others were, "i wanna die but i don't wanna kill myself." either way... death is something that we naturally avoid.

my personal beliefs are out of the question.... even though this is a thread about believing in God or not, it's got nothing to do with it.

cause personally my faith is would actually rid me of my fear in death... in fact, the only reason why i don't fear death is because of my faith.

what exactly is it that makes you afraid of death......as Hippiemom pointed out....the pain...that leads up to it..yes..but actually dying...don't get it...its not instinctive...and yes I feel that one's believing in christianity contributes to one's fear in death...that's what christianity holds over your head to keep you in line.
I do applaud you coming on this board and discussing your thoughts and feelings...your expanding your input..stepping out of your comfort zone....not many can do that.

callen

hippiemom wrote:

Nice post, baraka, very honest.

I guess I should clear up what I mean by "fear of death." When I was violently attacked, I was very much afraid at first, but I was more afraid of what he might do to me and how much it would hurt than I was of dying. As it went on I got more and more scared, including being afraid of never seeing my friends and family again. Eventually I reached a point where I was thinking "Oh please just let me die now, I can't take this anymore." When I went unconscious, I thought I was dying and I was glad. So there was a fear of dying there for a little while, but that was overcome by a fear of living when life got bad enough.

When I got cancer I wasn't really afraid of dying, and some of my treatments have made me wish I'd die real soon. My main motivator to stay alive at this point is my kids ... my wish to see them, and knowing how upset they will be when I'm gone. If I didn't have kids, I probably would have done myself in by now. I can't really do anything other than lie in bed and feel like shit, there's not much of a point to this life.

I'm sending lots of love your way......do you feel it???

Thecure

i for one fear death not in the sense of i am going to hell or heaven but that it means that i can't do what i did or want to do. not fearing death either means you have done everything that you wanted to do and won't miss it (inwhich case congrats) or you can;'t think of anything that you want to do (inwhich case i am sorry)

i understand that fearing death may seem irrrational but so what, people are irrational. sure death is "nothing" but it does end something.

deadnothingbetter

callen wrote:

what exactly is it that makes you afraid of death......as Hippiemom pointed out....the pain...that leads up to it..yes..but actually dying...don't get it...its not instinctive...

not fear is in getting the creeps but fear as an instinct to survive. bullets are being fired, you're going to duck down. that's an instinct.

and yes I feel that one's believing in christianity contributes to one's fear in death...that's what christianity holds over your head to keep you in line.

well, that's just an opinion really. but you could have a christian who is about to die cry, "i don't wanna die" and you could also have an atheist who is about to die cry, "i don't wanna die". it's really irrelevant.

hippiemom

callen wrote:

I'm sending lots of love your way......do you feel it???

I do