proof that god exists..

Boom The Cat

Religion is just Spiritual Politics. Spirituality cannot be labelled because it is like love; the word itself is not important, it is the meaning of the word, and the connection of the meaning that is important to you.

I hope some of the open minded people can read this and find something from it.

dunkman

catefrances wrote:

because we live in a built environment and in doing so, put ourselves outside Nature. we do everything we can to 'tame' Nature instead of living within it. and yes i know we do so because we can. but that does not change my opinion.

tribes in Africa and in the Amazon dont live in a built environment anymore than say ants or bees do... but you class them as Nature but not mankind? man is here purely as a result of nature, what we do to nature we do because the nature used to create us has made us quite smart. its natures fault we are destroying nature because if nature made us as intelligent as say a worm, then we'd all just be sitting in our feaces and licking trees for food.. nature.. i just added that last one in as i hadnt felt i had used the word 'nature' often enough there :rolleyes:

cornnifer

Kann wrote:

Well the argument is flawed :
even using the big bang theory (and it may be far-fetched like said Ahnimus) you can't be sure there was nothing at the begining. When you consider the singularity wich caused the big bang, laws of physics break down so :
- 0 might equal 1, there are no laws at that moment of time
- we have no idea (yet) if there was no matter at all or something really small, really heavy

Stephen Hawking, whose cosmological brilliance is unquestioned, and perhaps unsurpassed, has proposed a quantum gravity model of the universe which seems to erase singularity. The problen is, in order to do so he employs imaginary numbers to produce the results he wants. A point he concedes to. When the imaginary numbers are converted back to real ones, singularity reappears!! You see, not even Stephen Hawking can avoid singularity without cheating.

catefrances

dunkman1974 wrote:

tribes in Africa and in the Amazon dont live in a built environment anymore than say ants or bees do... but you class them as Nature but not mankind? man is here purely as a result of nature, what we do to nature we do because the nature used to create us has made us quite smart. its natures fault we are destroying nature because if nature made us as intelligent as say a worm, then we'd all just be sitting in our feaces and licking trees for food.. nature.. i just added that last one in as i hadnt felt i had used the word 'nature' often enough there :rolleyes:

it is nature's fault we are destroying her?
no. it is our fault we do not put our intelligence to better use.
and no i do not class tribes in africa and the amazon as Nature. they are Mankind as well. but they live less a less advanced existence than we in the industrialised world do.
but don't you see dunkman. we are more intelligent than the other organisms, so we don't lick the trees and sit in our own shit or fling it at each other. but i think we have a responsibility to the Earth to use that intelligence constructively for the benefit of the entire planet, not just ourselves. because as we are becoming all too aware those supposed benefits we reap are destroying our home. our so called intelligence is killing us...slowly. and that doesn't sound too smart to me.

cornnifer

catefrances wrote:

we are more intelligent than the other organisms, so we don't lick the trees and sit in our own shit or fling it at each other. but i think we have a responsibility to the Earth to use that intelligence constructively for the benefit of the entire planet, not just ourselves. because as we are becoming all too aware those supposed benefits we reap are destroying our home. our so called intelligence is killing us...slowly. and that doesn't sound too smart to me.

Your exactly right. Whats more is when WE do it, some say it is because there is no God.

dunkman

catefrances wrote:

it is nature's fault we are destroying her? .
no. it is our fault we do not put our intelligence to better use.
and no i do not class tribes in africa and the amazon as Nature. they are Mankind as well. but they live less a less advanced existence than we in the industrialised world do.
but don't you see dunkman. we are more intelligent than the other organisms, so we don't lick the trees and sit in our own shit or fling it at each other. but i think we have a responsibility to the Earth to use that intelligence constructively for the benefit of the entire planet, not just ourselves. because as we are becoming all too aware those supposed benefits we reap are destroying our home. our so called intelligence is killing us...slowly. and that doesn't sound too smart to me.

but dont you see that we are only this intelligent because of nature! if nature had made us as clever as a worm then we'd be doing the tree-licking and stuff, but nature has produced us in such a way that we are the most intelligent species on the planet... ergo, nature is responsible for us and we are responsible for destroying nature!

man wasnt this clever 40,000 years ago!!! and in 40,000 years in the future who knows!!!

but all this is futile when you consider that ALL natural lief will cease to exist when the earth is swallowed up by the sun in 4billion years time!!! then all life will cease to exist!!!

catefrances

dunkman1974 wrote:

but dont you see that we are only this intelligent because of nature! if nature had made us as clever as a worm then we'd be doing the tree-licking and stuff, but nature has produced us in such a way that we are the most intelligent species on the planet... ergo, nature is responsible for us and we are responsible for destroying nature!

man wasnt this clever 40,000 years ago!!! and in 40,000 years in the future who knows!!!

but all this is futile when you consider that ALL natural lief will cease to exist when the earth is swallowed up by the sun in 4billion years time!!! then all life will cease to exist!!!

indeed i do see it is because of Nature that we are as intelligent as we are. but what use is that intelligence if we use it to destroy our planet. and we don't need to go down that course. we can apply ourselves as a species to more self sufficient, more earth friendly ways to live. but we don't. we are such a self gratifying, live in the now creature that the future doesn't particularly interest us when it clearly should. maybe that's the mistake Nature made.

soulsinging

catefrances wrote:

indeed i do see it is because of Nature that we are as intelligent as we are. but what use is that intelligence if we use it to destroy our planet. and we don't need to go down that course. we can apply ourselves as a species to more self sufficient, more earth friendly ways to live. but we don't. we are such a self gratifying, live in the now creature that the future doesn't particularly interest us when it clearly should. maybe that's the mistake Nature made.

we're not going to destroy the planet. we can't come close. we might wipe ourselves off it and take a lot of our fellow species' with us... but life will go on without us. we're not THAT special. now, if we hope to stick around awhile or if we deem it desirable to maximize the variety of our cohabitants, we DO need to make some changes. environmentalism is just as self-serving as industrialism, it's just got a longer-term focus.

what this has to do with god i cant recall

Collin

cornnifer wrote:

Your exactly right. Whats more is when WE do it, some say it is because there is no God.

What exactly do you mean, I'm afraid I'm a bit lost in the ambiguity of your post.

rrivers

soulsinging wrote:

we're not going to destroy the planet. we can't come close. we might wipe ourselves off it and take a lot of our fellow species' with us... but life will go on without us. we're not THAT special. now, if we hope to stick around awhile or if we deem it desirable to maximize the variety of our cohabitants, we DO need to make some changes. environmentalism is just as self-serving as industrialism, it's just got a longer-term focus.

what this has to do with god i cant recall

Well said.

Byrnzie

catefrances wrote:

in my opinion, Nature is everything around us that is living or once was living that retains a natural state. The order of things that Mankind has not touched. By this i mean that which Mankind did not have hand in creating. Nature is what creates and regulates the world within its own order. Also those forces which shape the natural world such as earthquakes, volcanic explosions, erosion. The known universe is also part of Nature, though to us an extra terrestrial one.

So please explain human biology and behaviour in a way which constitutes being 'outside nature'.

OutOfBreath

Ahnimus wrote:

Some quantum physicists believe that atomic matter is really an array of tendancies until it's observed. Some people that observer is God. These are the best scientific arguements for God I've heard, though they are still highly theoretical and open for other explanations.

The alternative to this theory of Bohr (famous atomic scientist), is the multiverse theories. Whereas Bohr invokes the need for an observer to "collapse the wave of possibilities", leading to thoughts about an ultimate observer, the multiverse theories posit that everything happens, but in different universes. So the wave doesn't need to be collapsed by an observer, it collapses differently in every universe. In our universe it collapses in one way, in others, another. These theories are mindboggling in scope, but are finding more and more support among cosmologists and those who deal with this stuff. It is also closely related to the superstring-theory and other in that vein.

As for dark matter, have you read the series "His Dark Materials"? If not, I highly recommend it. It applies dark matter and parallell universes into a grand epic narrative, culminating with a new rebellion on "the authority".

Peace
Dan

catefrances

soulsinging wrote:

we're not going to destroy the planet. we can't come close. we might wipe ourselves off it and take a lot of our fellow species' with us... but life will go on without us. we're not THAT special. now, if we hope to stick around awhile or if we deem it desirable to maximize the variety of our cohabitants, we DO need to make some changes. environmentalism is just as self-serving as industrialism, it's just got a longer-term focus.

what this has to do with god i cant recall

you are right of course. i don't think even Mankind could destroy the Earth. what i meant was that Mankind would make it uninhabitable for not only us but other organisms. thus destroying theirenvironment though not the Earth because she would regenerate.

catefrances

Byrnzie wrote:

So please explain human biology and behaviour in a way which constitutes being 'outside nature'.

are you asking what Mankind does that puts him outside a symbiotic relationship with Nature?

well let's see for starters. dams rivers. strip mines. releases way too much carbon into the atmosphere. there is a reason coal is coal. deforests millions of square kilometres.

dunkman

catefrances wrote:

are you asking what Mankind does that puts him outside a symbiotic relationship with Nature?

well let's see for starters. dams rivers. strip mines. releases way too much carbon into the atmosphere. there is a reason coal is coal. deforests millions of square kilometres.

there are animals that destroy nature as well... cows farting huge amounts of methane for one

also nature also destroys itself... ice ages, natural disasters, etc

mankind is part of nature regardless of your thoughts about why it isnt... it just is... because some people are fucking up the world we live in doesnt mean mankind isnt a part of nature! its just that some people are stupid and out for the quick buck!! but the mere fact we exist in the first place means we are a product of nature... we just became industrialised for better or worse due to the fact we are the most intelligent species... something nature attributed to us

no hippy logic will tell me otherwise

UKDave

catefrances wrote:

are you asking what Mankind does that puts him outside a symbiotic relationship with Nature?

well let's see for starters. dams rivers. strip mines. releases way too much carbon into the atmosphere. there is a reason coal is coal. deforests millions of square kilometres.

:rolleyes: are beavers outside of nature then...?

It is a nonsense argument...

sponger

cows farts are destroying the ozone because there is an unnaturally oversized population of them as a result of man's love for hamburger and steaks.

According to a recent issue of time magazine, something happened during the evolutionary chain that gave us smaller jaws. These smaller jaws allowed for a larger cranium, which allowed for a larger brain.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1541283,00.html

dunkman

sponger wrote:

cows farts are destroying the ozone because there is an unnaturally oversized population of them as a result of man's love for hamburger and steaks.

According to a recent issue of time magazine, something happened during the evolutionary chain that gave us smaller jaws. These smaller jaws allowed for a larger cranium, which allowed for a larger brain.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1541283,00.html

smaller jaws means less hamburger and steak in mouth.... damn you evolutionary chain... damn you!!!!!!

dunkman

sponger wrote:

cows farts are destroying the ozone because there is an unnaturally oversized population of them as a result of man's love for hamburger and steaks.[/url]

and milk

Jackhammer

God exists? Damn it, I did bet on the wrong horse then...

Wha?! Oh, Still no proof, you meant?

pfiou, that's a relief