Furthermore, it is based on the assumption that the laws of physics are infinitely static.
well, no, they vary with the scale, this is known. Of course to even smaller scales and to even higher energies they might vary in a different way than predicted, but this is what we have and the tools that we can use to make science. Without those (or without searching for new good ones) we would be priests, not scientists
So the basic premise is that, because there are bad things that happen on earth, God must not exist?
That's extremely small minded, in my opinion. What if we introduce the thought that only a very tiny fraction of our existence is about our life on earth?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
What if we introduce the thought that only a very tiny fraction of our existence is about our life on earth?
That's fine. And proceeding with that particular vein of logic we can say that life on earth is merely a prelude to something else, and that therefore we can undervalue it, and disregard the importance of the environment which sustains it, in the name of some higher, albeit abstract, ideal.
So the basic premise is that, because there are bad things that happen on earth, God must not exist?
well... explain why the earth is poorly constructed?
and as a result of this amateur global jigsaw being so crappily made it has been spewing forth hot magma over the years killing thousands of people and 250,000 deaths caused via an underground earthquake forming a giant tsunami... and you know that some of the victims of these events didnt havr time to truly accept god so now they reside in hell... and god caused them to be in hell, because he didnt give them 'time' to accept him...
thats pretty fucked up
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Regardless, to prove the non-logical through logic is a fool's errand.
I like that, and I think that explains it all, for everyone... I don't think you can logically explain God's existence. You can't prove or disprove really. It's a matter of faith, whether you believe or not.
I like that, and I think that explains it all, for everyone... I don't think you can logically explain God's existence. You can't prove or disprove really. It's a matter of faith, whether you believe or not.
Precisely. The original poster actually refers to this:
"However if you consider a supernatural being, not bound by the laws of the universe, it becomes possible."
He/she then proceeds to try to "prove" something beyond the bounds of logic within the confines of 0/1 logic.
There is no logical proof for God. Similarly, there is no logical disproof for God. Proofs require the confines of rules which in turn invalidates omnipotence.
Believers of all stripes need to stick to their bread and butter: faith. For better or for worse.
Whatever side you come down on, the origin of the universe eventually becomes a matter of faith and not science. Science needs to be observed and studied and hopefully reproduced. Until someone events a time machine we aren't going to be able to scientifically deduce anything.
What I always wonder about the big bang is how did all that matter that exploded and made everything get there? What caused caused it to "explode" in the first place? If there's one thing that the laws of thermodynamics teach us it's that there are definite cause/effect relationships in the natural world so why should that be any different during the formation of the universe?
At some point, whether you believe in intelligent design or not, you have to come to terms with the fact that the world had no true beginning and that time is infinite—and that's not a scientific thing that's a belief thing.
So this life is sacrifice...
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
...something I read on another board. I am an atheist, but who cares.
0 can never equal 1
This is a simplest form of the case for God. 1 represents something, 0 of course represents nothing. Nothing can not spawn something. But apparently this has happened. One day energy just existed. this equation shows that this is impossible. However if you consider a supernatural being, not bound by the laws of the universe, it becomes possible. Our existence today proves this to be true. 0 can not multiply, it can not become one, it can only be 0. 1 however is a representation of the existence of energy. it can mean both one proton, or 1 can mean all of the matter within the universe.. both are equally impossible.
have you ever heard about the sophist movement in ancient greece...you should check them out...the thing you posted is what a philospher calls a "sophism"...it's not a proof that god exists, it's just a proof that, by using common logic you can demonstrate any crap possible
"It was a kind of a sick, disturbed rock opera - if Nietzsche were to write a rock opera,"-Jeff Ament about Eddie's first three songs
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough, I'm fine now.
Push me pull me. See ya later
<present tense inhabiter #0003 & Even Flow psycho #0036>
I love how you equate death with the earth being "poorly constructed".
If a creator God does exist, I doubt it shares your standards.
thanks... high standards are a thing of mine, now if you'll excuse me i have to go back through all of my 8,000+ posts to check for comma mistakes...
laters
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
...something I read on another board. I am an atheist, but who cares.
0 can never equal 1
This is a simplest form of the case for God. 1 represents something, 0 of course represents nothing. Nothing can not spawn something. But apparently this has happened. One day energy just existed. this equation shows that this is impossible. However if you consider a supernatural being, not bound by the laws of the universe, it becomes possible. Our existence today proves this to be true. 0 can not multiply, it can not become one, it can only be 0. 1 however is a representation of the existence of energy. it can mean both one proton, or 1 can mean all of the matter within the universe.. both are equally impossible.
Ok, it's like the intelligent design theory. The rule is only applied to ourselves. If we are here we must have came from something. That is supposed to mean god exists, but applying that same logic to God's existance means something existed before god. Most people argue that human logic does not apply to God.
With intelligent design the theory is that since we are so complex that we must have been created, like a watch. But God is the most complext entity of everything. Does that mean God must have been created?
If something can't be zero so it must be one. That does not prove God. It is logical to believe that matter never stops existing but only changes forms. This is the current perception of the universe. There is not begining or end, everything just is. Personally I think the big bang theory is kind of far-fetched for the evidence it's based on.
At any rate, the current scientific theory is that there always has been something. Energy always has been and always will be. It's the fabric of space and time. God may or may not fit in there somewhere. I just don't think dividing boolean numbers is the answer. Especially when that level of logic can only be applied to us and not God.
well... explain why the earth is poorly constructed?
and as a result of this amateur global jigsaw being so crappily made it has been spewing forth hot magma over the years killing thousands of people and 250,000 deaths caused via an underground earthquake forming a giant tsunami... and you know that some of the victims of these events didnt havr time to truly accept god so now they reside in hell... and god caused them to be in hell, because he didnt give them 'time' to accept him...
thats pretty fucked up
I think the earth is amazingly constructed. I'm sorry you feel otherwise.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Whatever side you come down on, the origin of the universe eventually becomes a matter of faith and not science. Science needs to be observed and studied and hopefully reproduced. Until someone events a time machine we aren't going to be able to scientifically deduce anything.
the nobel prize for physics of this year is for the observation of the cosmic microwave background, that is a big bang residual. So: we have observations for that. We have also observations of creation of particles in accelerators.
What I always wonder about the big bang is how did all that matter that exploded and made everything get there? What caused caused it to "explode" in the first place? If there's one thing that the laws of thermodynamics teach us it's that there are definite cause/effect relationships in the natural world so why should that be any different during the formation of the universe?
At some point, whether you believe in intelligent design or not, you have to come to terms with the fact that the world had no true beginning and that time is infinite—and that's not a scientific thing that's a belief thing.
Why would it be more difficult to prove he doesn't exist?
in order to prove that God (or something beyond our reasoning) doesn't exist you must be able to know beyond your reasoning, which is impossible. You can say that you don't accept that God may exist (b/c of life experience, etc...) but you can't prove he doesn't exist.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
i kicked a 98 yard punt once when i played high school football. god is real, and he made the wind blow for me that day.
and i don't care that it was in practice,...
my long in a game was 63 and my average senior year was 41.5. (for the sports fans and critics)
I am glad you believe in God, but it seems strange to me that your belief is based on a football punt. I am not trying to burst your bubble, really I am not. But I don't feel like God cares about my dancing, my cheerleading skills, or even if I eat. I think he has far more important issues than a high school football game. I just don't feel that important to God, for him to be interested in my mundane days.
If God does exist, it's probably something like dark matter.
Dark matter is believed to be like the glue that holds the universe together. Because our current understanding of the Universe fails when mathematically calculated. Building a computer simulated universe we see the universe fall apart. But by adding this "dark matter" into the simulation events happen almost identically to reality. Unfortunately the whole concept of dark matter is that it is not like normal matter, it does not consist of atoms, it consists of other things which we can not detect because we exist in the realm of atomic matter. A team of researches have spent 16 years in a mine trying to discover dark matter.
Some quantum physicists believe that atomic matter is really an array of tendancies until it's observed. Some people that observer is God. These are the best scientific arguements for God I've heard, though they are still highly theoretical and open for other explanations.
People seem to think if we can't explain something, it must be God.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
and if your presupposition allows no room for God..it can't be God, ever and has to be something else.
That is true as well. Maybe it's best if we all just stop trying to prove/disprove God and consider the possibilities with a scientific method.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
That is true as well. Maybe it's best if we all just stop trying to prove/disprove God and consider the possibilities with a scientific method.
the scientific method is very good for inferring or measuring etc.. things that are objective and repeatable. But b/c there are things that we can't repeat and things that aren't objective, God will inevitably be thrown in as a possibility and in my view should be.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
the scientific method is very good for inferring or measuring etc.. things that are objective and repeatable. But b/c there are things that we can't repeat and things that aren't objective, God will inevitably be thrown in as a possibility and in my view should be.
Well the reality is, if God is creator of all things and is all things. I don't think we will ever be able to prove/disprove God's existance using any methods scientific or otherwise. But I agree, the possibility shouldn't be totally thrown out.
However, following some previous logic. If all things must come from something, then God must be nothing. Because as the alpha and omega, he could not have been created from something, so he/it must be nothing.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
However, following some previous logic. If all things must come from something, then God must be nothing. Because as the alpha and omega, he could not have been created from something, so he/it must be nothing.
or everything. Of course that's assuming he's bound to principles of physics etc...Which I don't see why he would have to be.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I have always said this: God exists, I just dont believe in him, beleif stretches from beyond our world, and beyond most of our thoughts, people want material 'proof' of god, which I would suppose is the last place to find him. (Am I right christians?)
Belief in something doesnt always have to be material, belief may not be real to you, but to someone else, it could be an amazingly important thing, with the power of beleif, alot can be done.
or everything. Of course that's assuming he's bound to principles of physics etc...Which I don't see why he would have to be.
That's the ultimate stumbling block to our proof/disproof of God. I'm a non-theist though, so soon I'll start trying to disprove God. I do however, fully admit that it's highly improbable that anyone will ever prove/disprove God.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I have always said this: God exists, I just dont believe in him, beleif stretches from beyond our world, and beyond most of our thoughts, people want material 'proof' of god, which I would suppose is the last place to find him. (Am I right christians?)
Belief in something doesnt always have to be material, belief may not be real to you, but to someone else, it could be an amazingly important thing, with the power of beleif, alot can be done.
Conceptually speaking, yes. God does exist.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
www.amnesty.org.uk
That's extremely small minded, in my opinion. What if we introduce the thought that only a very tiny fraction of our existence is about our life on earth?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
That's fine. And proceeding with that particular vein of logic we can say that life on earth is merely a prelude to something else, and that therefore we can undervalue it, and disregard the importance of the environment which sustains it, in the name of some higher, albeit abstract, ideal.
well... explain why the earth is poorly constructed?
and as a result of this amateur global jigsaw being so crappily made it has been spewing forth hot magma over the years killing thousands of people and 250,000 deaths caused via an underground earthquake forming a giant tsunami... and you know that some of the victims of these events didnt havr time to truly accept god so now they reside in hell... and god caused them to be in hell, because he didnt give them 'time' to accept him...
thats pretty fucked up
I like that, and I think that explains it all, for everyone... I don't think you can logically explain God's existence. You can't prove or disprove really. It's a matter of faith, whether you believe or not.
Precisely. The original poster actually refers to this:
"However if you consider a supernatural being, not bound by the laws of the universe, it becomes possible."
He/she then proceeds to try to "prove" something beyond the bounds of logic within the confines of 0/1 logic.
There is no logical proof for God. Similarly, there is no logical disproof for God. Proofs require the confines of rules which in turn invalidates omnipotence.
Believers of all stripes need to stick to their bread and butter: faith. For better or for worse.
I love how you equate death with the earth being "poorly constructed".
If a creator God does exist, I doubt it shares your standards.
What I always wonder about the big bang is how did all that matter that exploded and made everything get there? What caused caused it to "explode" in the first place? If there's one thing that the laws of thermodynamics teach us it's that there are definite cause/effect relationships in the natural world so why should that be any different during the formation of the universe?
At some point, whether you believe in intelligent design or not, you have to come to terms with the fact that the world had no true beginning and that time is infinite—and that's not a scientific thing that's a belief thing.
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
have you ever heard about the sophist movement in ancient greece...you should check them out...the thing you posted is what a philospher calls a "sophism"...it's not a proof that god exists, it's just a proof that, by using common logic you can demonstrate any crap possible
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough, I'm fine now.
Push me pull me. See ya later
<present tense inhabiter #0003 & Even Flow psycho #0036>
thanks... high standards are a thing of mine, now if you'll excuse me i have to go back through all of my 8,000+ posts to check for comma mistakes...
laters
Fear not...grammar is a human construct. Again I doubt God cares
pass the bong chief
I agree with Ahnimus.
I think the earth is amazingly constructed. I'm sorry you feel otherwise.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
www.amnesty.org.uk
in order to prove that God (or something beyond our reasoning) doesn't exist you must be able to know beyond your reasoning, which is impossible. You can say that you don't accept that God may exist (b/c of life experience, etc...) but you can't prove he doesn't exist.
and i don't care that it was in practice,...
my long in a game was 63 and my average senior year was 41.5. (for the sports fans and critics)
~Ron Burgundy
why?? because he didn't exist and there is no god
move along
who cares how it got started..let your guard down...and it will end.
So God's plan takes away human responsibility?
I am glad you believe in God, but it seems strange to me that your belief is based on a football punt. I am not trying to burst your bubble, really I am not. But I don't feel like God cares about my dancing, my cheerleading skills, or even if I eat. I think he has far more important issues than a high school football game. I just don't feel that important to God, for him to be interested in my mundane days.
Dark matter is believed to be like the glue that holds the universe together. Because our current understanding of the Universe fails when mathematically calculated. Building a computer simulated universe we see the universe fall apart. But by adding this "dark matter" into the simulation events happen almost identically to reality. Unfortunately the whole concept of dark matter is that it is not like normal matter, it does not consist of atoms, it consists of other things which we can not detect because we exist in the realm of atomic matter. A team of researches have spent 16 years in a mine trying to discover dark matter.
Some quantum physicists believe that atomic matter is really an array of tendancies until it's observed. Some people that observer is God. These are the best scientific arguements for God I've heard, though they are still highly theoretical and open for other explanations.
People seem to think if we can't explain something, it must be God.
and if your presupposition allows no room for God..it can't be God, ever and has to be something else.
That is true as well. Maybe it's best if we all just stop trying to prove/disprove God and consider the possibilities with a scientific method.
the scientific method is very good for inferring or measuring etc.. things that are objective and repeatable. But b/c there are things that we can't repeat and things that aren't objective, God will inevitably be thrown in as a possibility and in my view should be.
Well the reality is, if God is creator of all things and is all things. I don't think we will ever be able to prove/disprove God's existance using any methods scientific or otherwise. But I agree, the possibility shouldn't be totally thrown out.
However, following some previous logic. If all things must come from something, then God must be nothing. Because as the alpha and omega, he could not have been created from something, so he/it must be nothing.
or everything. Of course that's assuming he's bound to principles of physics etc...Which I don't see why he would have to be.
Belief in something doesnt always have to be material, belief may not be real to you, but to someone else, it could be an amazingly important thing, with the power of beleif, alot can be done.
there you are.
- brain of c
That's the ultimate stumbling block to our proof/disproof of God. I'm a non-theist though, so soon I'll start trying to disprove God. I do however, fully admit that it's highly improbable that anyone will ever prove/disprove God.
Conceptually speaking, yes. God does exist.