Left in jail, theres always the chance of getting out. In the case of Iraq the chance may have even been greater.
So the chance of him getting out is justification for murdering him? That's hilariously pathetic. I ask this - where would Saddam go if he escaped? Even his own Sunni's don't really respect him anymore.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Sorry sister, but the world is short one man who was responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands.
Regardless of how it happened, or who put him in power in the first place... there is one less terrible person on this planet. But please, feel free to continue to blame it on the idiot box, or the media, or everyone with a different view than you being a "mindless sheep".
There is a big difference between feeling relief (or even joy) in the death of a murderer and actually BEING a murderer.
When you murder someone who is a murderer doesnt that make you a murderer as well?
Why not be mediocre and be the best at it that you can be?
I'm asking someone explain to me what the difference is between Saddam and his murderous actions, and the actions of American leaders.
Where are our actions better or more justified? In what way?
Im not talking about the war in iraq. Or any war for that matter.
Im not comparing the actions of the US government to the Iraqi Government. Thats been discussed millions of times, and everyones viewpoints are going to be different on that. Some think the war was the right thing to do, others dont.
Im merely talking about the action of killing this one man, to me, was not wrong, and defending myself against the judgemental viewpoints being spewed that anyone who doesnt have a problem with this execution is just a mindless sheep, or is in some way a bad person.
When you murder someone who is a murderer doesnt that make you a murderer as well?
If someone kills your wife and kids in front of you, and you kill them in self defense, does that make you a murderer? Maybe, maybe not. I believe that sometimes there is justification to take a persons life. would i do it myself? Probably not.
I also eat meat, but could never kill an animal myself unless i absolutely had to, and i sure as hell dont blame hunters for doing it.
If someone kills your wife and kids in front of you, and you kill them in self defense, does that make you a murderer? Maybe, maybe not. I believe that sometimes there is justification to take a persons life. would i do it myself? Probably not.
I also eat meat, but could never kill an animal myself unless i absolutely had to, and i sure as hell dont blame hunters for doing it.
To me, YES it does make you a murderer. I do not believe there is any justification for taking anyone's life.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Im merely talking about the action of killing this one man, to me, was not wrong, and defending myself against the judgemental viewpoints being spewed that anyone who doesnt have a problem with this execution is just a mindless sheep, or is in some way a bad person.
I didn't say you were a mindless sheep or a bad person. Truth is there are just as many "mindless sheep" in the overly-Liberal/PC camp, as there are on any of the other sides.
I'm asking what the difference is between Saddam's regime and his actions, and the actions of American leaders and the CIA ....in general terms. Not just this current Iraq war, but historically and through policies and actions, how are our American leaders better, different.....more justified?
I definitely see a lot of grey areas to many issues, but capital punishment is the one where it is closest to black and white to me. There is NO justification for killing someone that anyone can convince me about. NOTHING good comes from killing someone.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I didn't say you were a mindless sheep or a bad person.
I'm asking what the difference is between Saddam's regime and his actions, and the actions of American leaders and the CIA ....in general terms. Not just this current Iraq war, but historically and through policies and actions, how are our American leaders better, different.....more justified?
Not you, But please notice all the posts, especially early on, that anyone who isnt bothered by capital punishment is either Primitive or just agreeing with it because the Government is telling us to.
I suppose there may not be that much difference. Im sure you could build a pretty convincing case against a number of our former leaders- Andrew Jackson being a good example. I imagine the difference is that in Iraq's regime, there was 1 person to hold accountable. one man who oversaw 25 years of these things, and in our system of supposed checks and balances, there are too many faces to go after for each decision.
To me, YES it does make you a murderer. I do not believe there is any justification for taking anyone's life.
Okay, and thats your viewpoint.
You're entitled to that. I dont agree, but thats what makes people great- no one thinks exactly the same- even if the government or media tells us too.
I definitely see a lot of grey areas to many issues, but capital punishment is the one where it is closest to black and white to me. There is NO justification for killing someone that anyone can convince me about. NOTHING good comes from killing someone.
Well I agree. Probably not as vehemently as you but I agree. There is no "justification" for capital punishment. But I think that I can understand how some people kill others. I'm not saying they are right to do it but I understand it. The biggest problem that I have had with this thread so far is not that they killed Suddam, which was unfortunate, but that so many people seem so ready and happy to dance on his grave.
To me, YES it does make you a murderer. I do not believe there is any justification for taking anyone's life.
Oh I disagree, here.
If someone is attacking me, my children, my family.....my friends with a deadly weapon; I will defend myself and my family. If it's necassary to kill for my survival or the survival of my loved ones; I would certainly get it done. I wouldn't automaically go for the killshot or death-blow (unless I was left with no choice and no time or space to do otherwise), but I certainly would kill to save my loved ones and myself.
If that makes me a murderer, in yours or anyone else's eyes; so be it.
Certainly I would be a killer, but not a murderer.
But we do have some confusion here, regarding the definition of "murderer".
Murderer- a criminal who commits homicide (who performs the unlawful premeditated killing of another human being)
Killer-someone who causes the death of a person or animal
Just as an aside, no one I believe has been jailed for the genocoide in Cambodia which killed 2 million people. If America was really interested in justice one wonders why they never pursued Pol Pot and his conspirators or atleast assisted the UN?
This is a good analogy to the current situation. we executed Saddam for crimes committed 22 years ago. By the end of the Viet-Nam war, we were helping the enemy...after 60,000 of our boys were killed! Where's the justice for the 1.5 million Vietnamese that were killed?
The same place the justice for the Armenians and Kurds apparently has gone.
I'm not pro-Saddam, or anti-America...I am pro-conscience, pro-accountability, and anti-revisionist history. In America and as a people, we seem to have the short term memory of a goldfish, and the long term memory of an amoeba. Our own atrocities are not ever discussed. 1.5 million vietnamese, and at least 650,000 Iraqi civilians based on the research conducted by JHU, which was funded by MIT. These are two of the preeminent research institutions in America...if not the world.
The best the Bush Administration can do is say that the research "is not credible". Well, that's rich...coming from an administration that gave us a list of terrorist names without checking to make sure that a number of them weren't still ALIVE after 9/11. This from an administration that gave us WMD's in Iraq as justification for a unilateral invasion. Then, suggested that Hussein and Bin Ladin were in league...when it is widely known that Bin Ladin and Hussein were mortal enemies who would never work together under any circumstances. Interesting that this administration would flaunt credibility, while at the same time attempting to discredit two of its most revered research institutions...which are among the most prestigious and accmplished in the world.
Last night, we were shown pictures of Iraqi's dancing in the streets. Today, there is widespread violence across the entire country in Iraq, and there have been a few bombings in foreign countries. Most interesting.
I'm not pro-Saddam, or anti-America...I am pro-conscience, pro-accountability, and anti-revisionist history. In America and as a people, we seem to have the short term memory of a goldfish, and the long term memory of an amoeba. Our own atrocities are not ever discussed. 1.5 million vietnamese, and at least 650,000 Iraqi civilians based on the research conducted by JHU, which was funded by MIT. These are two of the preeminent research institutions in America...if not the world.
Well said. I agree, completely.
Not that your other points weren't as good. I just felt this summed it up very well.
I should elaborate, the MIT/JHU study was only for Iraqi casualties. People are still getting blown up in Vietnam from left over landmines, but the 1.5 million casualties is a widely reported and accepted number from that engagement.
I see no reason to celebrate, and I feel no desire to spew bile. Anyone doing so now is 20 years too late, and billions of dollars short. Was this IRAQ'S way to deal with Saddam, or was it America's ?
Im not surprised the same five people would come out against this monster's death. In our country the government kills people for murdering just one person. This guy killed hundreds of thousands of innocents. His swift justice may have actually saved lives. There are Baathistm, probably with remnants of Sadaam's wepons stocks surely participang is the mass bombings and would have been happy to have Sadaam alive. In the long run if his death means the extinguishment of the Baathist legacy of killing, then lives were probably saved by his death.
Im not surprised the same five people would come out against this monster's death. In our country the government kills people for murdering just one person. This guy killed hundreds of thousands of innocents. His swift justice may have actually saved lives. There are Baathistm, probably with remnants of Sadaam's wepons stocks surely participang is the mass bombings and would have been happy to have Sadaam alive. In the long run if his death means the extinguishment of the Baathist legacy of killing, then lives were probably saved by his death.
The Baathtists now have a martyr that everyone recognises. There's already been a spate of angry protests and bombings across Iraq today. My opinion is that the violence will only increase with him dead as the Iraqis have now been handed another justification for they're hatred against the occupiers.
But then, perhaps this is now the point. Perhaps Bush et al wish to see the complete disintegration of the country.
The Baathtists now have a martyr that everyone recognises. There's already been a spate of angry protests and bombings across Iraq today. My opinion is that the violence will only increase with him dead as the Iraqis have now been handed another justification for they're hatred against the occupiers.
But then, perhaps this is now the point. Perhaps Bush et al wish to see the complete disintegration of the country.
I do not believe there is any justification for taking anyone's life.
I understand people who are against capital punishment, and I can understand their views. But there is no way I can understand this view. I think it is morally bankrupt to not defend yourself or your family. That defense may have to include the taking of a life. In the face of kill or be killed would you chose to allow your family to die? In the face of kill or be killed would you chose your own death over the death of the scumbag attacking you?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I understand people who are against capital punishment, and I can understand their views. But there is no way I can understand this view. I think it is morally bankrupt to not defend yourself or your family. That defense may have to include the taking of a life. In the face of kill or be killed would you chose to allow your family to die? In the face of kill or be killed would you chose your own death over the death of the scumbag attacking you?
Your confusing someone defending themselves or their family with capital punishment. There is no comparison.
i cant believe you actually edited to remove "the sheep nonsense".
Telling someone they cant think for themselves is equally as childish as "saddam apologist"
Your confusing someone defending themselves or their family with capital punishment. There is no comparison.
He's not- the previous poster did. Someone had asked me if you murder a murderer, arent you a murderer as well.
I said, maybe, maybe not- but if someone kills your family in front of you, would you be a murderer to kill them in self defense...
know1 then responded with that it WOULD make you a murderer. It really had nothing to do with the point of the thread, but i think JeffBr was responding to that comment... not the specific point of the thread itself.
Comments
So the chance of him getting out is justification for murdering him? That's hilariously pathetic. I ask this - where would Saddam go if he escaped? Even his own Sunni's don't really respect him anymore.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
When you murder someone who is a murderer doesnt that make you a murderer as well?
Im not talking about the war in iraq. Or any war for that matter.
Im not comparing the actions of the US government to the Iraqi Government. Thats been discussed millions of times, and everyones viewpoints are going to be different on that. Some think the war was the right thing to do, others dont.
Im merely talking about the action of killing this one man, to me, was not wrong, and defending myself against the judgemental viewpoints being spewed that anyone who doesnt have a problem with this execution is just a mindless sheep, or is in some way a bad person.
...and who murders the murderer that murdered the murderer?
ps. I am not joking here and take these questions very seriously!
If someone kills your wife and kids in front of you, and you kill them in self defense, does that make you a murderer? Maybe, maybe not. I believe that sometimes there is justification to take a persons life. would i do it myself? Probably not.
I also eat meat, but could never kill an animal myself unless i absolutely had to, and i sure as hell dont blame hunters for doing it.
So what did I forget?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
To me, YES it does make you a murderer. I do not believe there is any justification for taking anyone's life.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I didn't say you were a mindless sheep or a bad person. Truth is there are just as many "mindless sheep" in the overly-Liberal/PC camp, as there are on any of the other sides.
I'm asking what the difference is between Saddam's regime and his actions, and the actions of American leaders and the CIA ....in general terms. Not just this current Iraq war, but historically and through policies and actions, how are our American leaders better, different.....more justified?
There are no courts for yhe bombings of the koerdish people? No court for others things he did? The killing of his son in laws? No court for that?
It's damn fucking easy way isn't? He deserved to get in court for everything else he did followed by rotten away in a sad prison cel....
Where is justice? Fucking bastards!
Probably nothing!
I definitely see a lot of grey areas to many issues, but capital punishment is the one where it is closest to black and white to me. There is NO justification for killing someone that anyone can convince me about. NOTHING good comes from killing someone.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Not you, But please notice all the posts, especially early on, that anyone who isnt bothered by capital punishment is either Primitive or just agreeing with it because the Government is telling us to.
I suppose there may not be that much difference. Im sure you could build a pretty convincing case against a number of our former leaders- Andrew Jackson being a good example. I imagine the difference is that in Iraq's regime, there was 1 person to hold accountable. one man who oversaw 25 years of these things, and in our system of supposed checks and balances, there are too many faces to go after for each decision.
Okay, and thats your viewpoint.
You're entitled to that. I dont agree, but thats what makes people great- no one thinks exactly the same- even if the government or media tells us too.
Well I agree. Probably not as vehemently as you but I agree. There is no "justification" for capital punishment. But I think that I can understand how some people kill others. I'm not saying they are right to do it but I understand it. The biggest problem that I have had with this thread so far is not that they killed Suddam, which was unfortunate, but that so many people seem so ready and happy to dance on his grave.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Oh I disagree, here.
If someone is attacking me, my children, my family.....my friends with a deadly weapon; I will defend myself and my family. If it's necassary to kill for my survival or the survival of my loved ones; I would certainly get it done. I wouldn't automaically go for the killshot or death-blow (unless I was left with no choice and no time or space to do otherwise), but I certainly would kill to save my loved ones and myself.
If that makes me a murderer, in yours or anyone else's eyes; so be it.
Certainly I would be a killer, but not a murderer.
But we do have some confusion here, regarding the definition of "murderer".
Murderer- a criminal who commits homicide (who performs the unlawful premeditated killing of another human being)
Killer-someone who causes the death of a person or animal
This is a good analogy to the current situation. we executed Saddam for crimes committed 22 years ago. By the end of the Viet-Nam war, we were helping the enemy...after 60,000 of our boys were killed! Where's the justice for the 1.5 million Vietnamese that were killed?
The same place the justice for the Armenians and Kurds apparently has gone.
I'm not pro-Saddam, or anti-America...I am pro-conscience, pro-accountability, and anti-revisionist history. In America and as a people, we seem to have the short term memory of a goldfish, and the long term memory of an amoeba. Our own atrocities are not ever discussed. 1.5 million vietnamese, and at least 650,000 Iraqi civilians based on the research conducted by JHU, which was funded by MIT. These are two of the preeminent research institutions in America...if not the world.
The best the Bush Administration can do is say that the research "is not credible". Well, that's rich...coming from an administration that gave us a list of terrorist names without checking to make sure that a number of them weren't still ALIVE after 9/11. This from an administration that gave us WMD's in Iraq as justification for a unilateral invasion. Then, suggested that Hussein and Bin Ladin were in league...when it is widely known that Bin Ladin and Hussein were mortal enemies who would never work together under any circumstances. Interesting that this administration would flaunt credibility, while at the same time attempting to discredit two of its most revered research institutions...which are among the most prestigious and accmplished in the world.
Last night, we were shown pictures of Iraqi's dancing in the streets. Today, there is widespread violence across the entire country in Iraq, and there have been a few bombings in foreign countries. Most interesting.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
Well said. I agree, completely.
Not that your other points weren't as good. I just felt this summed it up very well.
I should elaborate, the MIT/JHU study was only for Iraqi casualties. People are still getting blown up in Vietnam from left over landmines, but the 1.5 million casualties is a widely reported and accepted number from that engagement.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
The Baathtists now have a martyr that everyone recognises. There's already been a spate of angry protests and bombings across Iraq today. My opinion is that the violence will only increase with him dead as the Iraqis have now been handed another justification for they're hatred against the occupiers.
But then, perhaps this is now the point. Perhaps Bush et al wish to see the complete disintegration of the country.
I really hope you're kidding.
There is a reasonable debate to be had here- see NMYTrees posts in this thread.
This type of nonsense, and all the sheep nonsense, is what really makes this place infuriating.
Please elaborate.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I understand people who are against capital punishment, and I can understand their views. But there is no way I can understand this view. I think it is morally bankrupt to not defend yourself or your family. That defense may have to include the taking of a life. In the face of kill or be killed would you chose to allow your family to die? In the face of kill or be killed would you chose your own death over the death of the scumbag attacking you?
Your confusing someone defending themselves or their family with capital punishment. There is no comparison.
i cant believe you actually edited to remove "the sheep nonsense".
Telling someone they cant think for themselves is equally as childish as "saddam apologist"
He's not- the previous poster did. Someone had asked me if you murder a murderer, arent you a murderer as well.
I said, maybe, maybe not- but if someone kills your family in front of you, would you be a murderer to kill them in self defense...
know1 then responded with that it WOULD make you a murderer. It really had nothing to do with the point of the thread, but i think JeffBr was responding to that comment... not the specific point of the thread itself.