This is a funny thread. Certainly, there are differences between the sexes. But, men and women can absolutely be intellectual equals. Men & women compliment each other, Yin & Yang. I say celebrate the differences instead of complaining about them.
In a relationship, I think it is a balance. I'll be honest, I am not the pillar of strength, so if my husband offers to carry my bags at the airport, them I let him. Of course, I'll open the doors for him . He mows the grass, since he's better at that and, in turn, I do other things, like manage our finances. Yin and Yang.....
It doesn't have to be a 'battle of the sexes'. Yes, there are jerky, superficial guys & there are catty, superficial girls, a lot of them unfortunately. I'm thinking most of the posts in this thread were in jest, at least I'm hoping so.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
That's the way I've always felt too. Why expect things from other people when you can do it all yourself? And in that way, you attract another independent person and there would never be those "needy" issues that so many people have.
Yes, I've done my time with the "needy" of this world.
It's all about because I "want" to now.
And if I end up on my own because of it, that's perfectly ok with me.
I'll never give up my independence again to play "gender roles" with someone.
I guess that eventually, as you get older, or as you learn (don't want ahnimus thundering down on me here! ) you discover that there are so many things in life that you have to rely on yourself for. And being self reliant is such a freeing thing.
I guess that eventually, as you get older, or as you learn (don't want ahnimus thundering down on me here! ) you discover that there are so many things in life that you have to rely on yourself for. And being self reliant is such a freeing thing.
This is cool, Jeanie. Too many relationships are co-dependent. You have to be able to love & take care of yourself before you can love & take care of someone else.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
You have to be able to love & take care of yourself before you can love & take care of someone else.
That is so true! Yet, so many people, my sister included, don't feel complete without a man in her life to "take care of her". Needless to say, she takes her eggs however the man in her life takes his eggs...
This is a funny thread. Certainly, there are differences between the sexes. But, men and women can absolutely be intellectual equals. Men & women compliment each other, Yin & Yang. I say celebrate the differences instead of complaining about them.
In a relationship, I think it is a balance. I'll be honest, I am not the pillar of strength, so if my husband offers to carry my bags at the airport, them I let him. Of course, I'll open the doors for him . He mows the grass, since he's better at that and, in turn, I do other things, like manage our finances. Yin and Yang.....
It doesn't have to be a 'battle of the sexes'. Yes, there are jerky, superficial guys & there are catty, superficial girls, a lot of them unfortunately. I'm thinking most of the posts in this thread were in jest, at least I'm hoping so.
I'm all about Yin and Yang baraka. And I agree that there are differences between the sexes. And we just need to understand and compliment each other. When it all gets down to it, if you are with the right person for you, it all gets sorted out pretty quickly as far as I can see. Because you want it to be that way. And so does he.
This is cool, Jeanie. Too many relationships are co-dependent. You have to be able to love & take care of yourself before you can love & take care of someone else.
Exactly!! Because you deserve to be the best you can be and you deserve to be with someone who is striving for the same thing. Regardless of what sex you are.
That is so true! Yet, so many people, my sister included, don't feel complete without a man in her life to "take care of her". Needless to say, she takes her eggs however the man in her life takes his eggs...
Oh I know that I am "complete" right now. That I know myself and that I'll keep learning and growing as I go along. I think maybe learning and growing together could be difficult, but I'm willing to give it a go. BUT be buggered I'm eating my eggs any way other than how I feel like them on the day!!
That is so true! Yet, so many people, my sister included, don't feel complete without a man in her life to "take care of her". Needless to say, she takes her eggs however the man in her life takes his eggs...
This is a very common predicament, unfortunately. Some people feel they need a partner in their life to feel good about themselves. The 'taking care of' should always be mutual and if you are confident with yourself & love yourself, you don't need a partner to feel self worth. That's a backwards way of entering into a relationship and you set yourself up for disappointment.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Exactly!! Because you deserve to be the best you can be and you deserve to be with someone who is striving for the same thing. Regardless of what sex you are.
Absolutely! It's about self love, which is not the same thing as conceit. A person who is conceited cares about what others think, a person with self love couldn't care less about another's opinion of them.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Absolutely! It's about self love, which is not the same thing as conceit. A person who is conceited cares about what others think, a person with self love couldn't care less about another's opinion of them.
So how come we've got all this angst going on then?
If I know this and you know this and so many people that I know do too,
why so much with the gender inequality still? It always amazes me when I come across it. Like I've stumbled onto a dinosaur or something!! I would have thought we all, as a race, have a vested interest in the promotion of happy, healthy and harmonious relationships.
So how come we've got all this angst going on then?
If I know this and you know this and so many people that I know do too,
why so much with the gender inequality? It always amazes me when I come across it. Like I've stumbled onto a dinosaur or something!!
Those are some hard questions and I'm not awake yet, Jeanie!
I don't know why so many are like that. I think maybe people 'give up' and revert back to old comfortable habits. And it's hard to overcome years of programming, as well. I think people tend to focus on the bad things, opposed to the good. A lot of women still feel repressed, due to a variety of reasons and men feel uncomfortable with the changing roles. Maybe they get 'mixed' messages on what women really want. I think it boils down to selecting a mate that is right for you, compliments you. Nothing like a bad relationship to diminish your opinion of the opposite sex!
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I agree with you about this RiC. Seems that there has been quite a bit of inequality with regard to the sentencing of females and in how the public views it. There have been several cases of this happening here recently and even the media reporting of it seems to view it more leniently. I think anybody who begins a sexual relationship with a minor needs to take a long hard look at themselves. And that anyone who does should be subject to the same laws and punishments regardless of their sex.
So how come we've got all this angst going on then?
If I know this and you know this and so many people that I know do too,
why so much with the gender inequality still? It always amazes me when I come across it. Like I've stumbled onto a dinosaur or something!! I would have thought we all, as a race, have a vested interest in the promotion of happy, healthy and harmonious relationships.
becos you, your friends, and the 100 people on the pearl jam message pit aren't enough people to even become a majority sentiment in a small ohio town.
Those are some hard questions and I'm not awake yet, Jeanie!
I don't know why so many are like that. I think maybe people 'give up' and revert back to old comfortable habits. And it's hard to overcome years of programming, as well. I think people tend to focus on the bad things, opposed to the good. A lot of women still feel repressed, due to a variety of reasons and men feel uncomfortable with the changing roles. Maybe they get 'mixed' messages on what women really want. I think it boils down to selecting a mate that is right for you, compliments you. Nothing like a bad relationship to diminish your opinion of the opposite sex!
Sorry!! You coulda had your coffee!
Yes I agree with what you are saying. I think it is a lot like that for many people. And I think the day to day does wear people down. It's hard to put on your best face when you're late for work, the boss gives you shit all day, you are stuck in a queue at the supermarket and you finally stagger in the door and your partner has had a shit day too. I guess it requires a lot of patience and understanding on both sides of the fence. And some forthought and planning.
I don't know about bad relationships dimishing my opinion of the opposite sex. I've had a series of really shitty relationships culminating in the last one which was the ultimate in shitty relationships, but I don't hold that against men. I think it was just indicative of those men. The last one in particular, was such a violent, self absorbed individual, that I was determined not to allow his bad behaviour to taint my enjoyment of men. I think I do ok. I'm pretty happy with the way things are going in the man department these days. But I can't speak for everyone. I know that bad relationships can have a devestating and long term affect on people and that it can scar you for the future. I guess I just chose not to allow him to inflict any more bad days on me by letting what he did change how I go about my relationships.
women getting lighter sentences. i mentioned it earlier. there's a link in the original article discussing how this is a myth and just a bunch of media hoopla.
Yes I agree with what you are saying. I think it is a lot like that for many people. And I think the day to day does wear people down. It's hard to put on your best face when you're late for work, the boss gives you shit all day, you are stuck in a queue at the supermarket and you finally stagger in the door and your partner has had a shit day too. I guess it requires a lot of patience and understanding on both sides of the fence. And some forthought and planning.
I don't know about bad relationships dimishing my opinion of the opposite sex. I've had a series of really shitty relationships culminating in the last one which was the ultimate in shitty relationships, but I don't hold that against men. I think it was just indicative of those men. The last one in particular, was such a violent, self absorbed individual, that I was determined not to allow his bad behaviour to taint my enjoyment of men. I think I do ok. I'm pretty happy with the way things are going in the man department these days. But I can't speak for everyone. I know that bad relationships can have a devestating and long term affect on people and that it can scar you for the future. I guess I just chose not to allow him to inflict any more bad days on me by letting what he did change how I go about my relationships.
Good for you Jeanie! We hurt ourselves when we let others define how we should feel, and it's so easy to fall into that trap. You have a great perspective, that's why you are a self sufficient, self loving person. Props to you!!!
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
becos you, your friends, and the 100 people on the pearl jam message pit aren't enough people to even become a majority sentiment in a small ohio town.
No, that's true, but if you were to take these small statistics and run the demographic against the rest of the country perhaps you might find some more who felt this way. The study was done in another country was it not?
To have true stats would it not make sense to sample from all over the world?
I mean the stats as the appear in your article do not even apply to your country.
Good for you Jeanie! We hurt ourselves when we let others define how we should feel, and it's so easy to fall into that trap. You have a great perspective, that's why you are a self sufficient, self loving person. Props to you!!!
Thanks baraka. I'm no saint, but I do try to establish what is mine to take on board and what is not. Seems that being fair and resonable is what I strive for. Sometimes I fail, but we are all human after all I guess.
No, that's true, but if you were to take these small statistics and run the demographic against the rest of the country perhaps you might find some more who felt this way. The study was done in another country was it not?
To have true stats would it not make sense to sample from all over the world?
I mean the stats as the appear in your article do not even apply to your country.
what study? the original study posted? i was talking more about how you and your friends aren't indicative of the norm of behavior. in general, pearl jam fans are well off the norm of society. you dont get into pearl jam's music if you're a mindless sex and the city acolyte. pearl jam fans are on the whole, far more liberal than average, better educated, wealthier, etc. we are not even close to a middle section of society.
and yes, the survey of the original post was conducted in sweden. i just thought it was interesting. sweden is more liberal than the US... they're kind of the cradle of liberal socialism... they dont marry as much, cohabit more, better health care, etc. so if their women are suffering from equality, id really like to see how it looks over here.
but my reply was to point out that your friends and this tiny little corner of the internet by no means indicates that your xp of how liberal and un-materialistic women are. you're not the norm. just as most guys around here aren't the norm of male behavior.
women getting lighter sentences. i mentioned it earlier. there's a link in the original article discussing how this is a myth and just a bunch of media hoopla.
Well I did read that ss, but I assumed you were talking about America.
I was referring to Australia and it has been the case here that women who have sexual relations with minors have not been subject to the same sentencing as men.
what study? the original study posted? i was talking more about how you and your friends aren't indicative of the norm of behavior. in general, pearl jam fans are well off the norm of society. you dont get into pearl jam's music if you're a mindless sex and the city acolyte. pearl jam fans are on the whole, far more liberal than average, better educated, wealthier, etc. we are not even close to a middle section of society.
and yes, the survey of the original post was conducted in sweden. i just thought it was interesting. sweden is more liberal than the US... they're kind of the cradle of liberal socialism... they dont marry as much, cohabit more, better health care, etc. so if their women are suffering from equality, id really like to see how it looks over here.
but my reply was to point out that your friends and this tiny little corner of the internet by no means indicates that your xp of how liberal and un-materialistic women are. you're not the norm. just as most guys around here aren't the norm of male behavior.
Righto! Got it! And you may have a point. But surely how I view the world, shapes the world I am in? Therefore would it not stand to reason that in my world this study or survey is not the "norm"? And that if I accept gender inequality I am helping to promote it? And by not accepting it I am in the position to help to bring about change in the world?
I'm not saying that gender inequality doesn't exist. Clearly it does. But I don't accept that it is the way things have to stay.
Oh and just for the record, I don't hate you at all.
Righto! Got it! And you may have a point. But surely how I view the world, shapes the world I am in? Therefore would it not stand to reason that in my world this study or survey is not the "norm"? And that if I accept gender inequality I am helping to promote it? And by not accepting it I am in the position to help to bring about change in the world?
I'm not saying that gender inequality doesn't exist. Clearly it does. But I don't accept that it is the way things have to stay.
Oh and just for the record, I don't hate you at all.
becos your question asked why we have all this angst going on. how you view the world does not shape the world you are in, only your perception of it. you ask why the angst... becos most of the men here meet their women in the real world. and they are by and large everyday women, not rabidly political pearl jam fans or chicks they picked up at the 2nd annual women who hate jewelry convention. so they deal with this shit and get frustrated. women deal with the same thing. thus why the angst... the world out there is vastly different from the ideal we talk about here. yeah, we dont have to accept stereotypes and can work to change them, but on the whole, we cannot change the way other people think and see the world very easily. which means that most women still demand a diamond ring and most men still expect her to do the housework.
and for the record, im glad to hear that but you're in the minority on that one i think
becos your question asked why we have all this angst going on. how you view the world does not shape the world you are in, only your perception of it. you ask why the angst... becos most of the men here meet their women in the real world. and they are by and large everyday women, not rabidly political pearl jam fans or chicks they picked up at the 2nd annual women who hate jewelry convention. so they deal with this shit and get frustrated. women deal with the same thing. thus why the angst... the world out there is vastly different from the ideal we talk about here. yeah, we dont have to accept stereotypes and can work to change them, but on the whole, we cannot change the way other people think and see the world very easily. which means that most women still demand a diamond ring and most men still expect her to do the housework.
and for the record, im glad to hear that but you're in the minority on that one i think
Ha ha, and women never feel the same frustrations towards men :rolleyes:
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
becos your question asked why we have all this angst going on. how you view the world does not shape the world you are in, only your perception of it. you ask why the angst... becos most of the men here meet their women in the real world. and they are by and large everyday women, not rabidly political pearl jam fans or chicks they picked up at the 2nd annual women who hate jewelry convention. so they deal with this shit and get frustrated. women deal with the same thing. thus why the angst... the world out there is vastly different from the ideal we talk about here. yeah, we dont have to accept stereotypes and can work to change them, but on the whole, we cannot change the way other people think and see the world very easily. which means that most women still demand a diamond ring and most men still expect her to do the housework.
and for the record, im glad to hear that but you're in the minority on that one i think
Well I'm a firm believer in "don't dream it be it"! So if you want it to change you have to "make it so No 1"! And if I can change my desire for a diamond ring, a husband, 2.4 kids and a perfect house then anybody can. I simply have to take what I've learned out into the world and make the information available to others. Now besides posting the article here who else did you speak to about it? And really ss, I think you are masquerading a little bit.
I mean do you honestly expect me to believe that you come here, rant and rave, promote the stance that you do but when you are in the world you behave like a neanderthal? I think not. This situation can be changed. It has been already. As long as we move forward with both genders being heard.
I think there a plenty of guys out there that do housework, and take care of the child rearing, that stay at home with the kids, and I only have to try to get into Bunnings on a Saturday to know that at least half of their customers are now women. Women who want to learn to DIY. Women who can buy their own damn jewellery. What I didn't see on your survey was what the marriage/cohabitation rates are. Because I think that possibly they have dropped, just like in other parts of the world. Which kinda null and voids the issue anyway. Look as far as I can see, the 1900's were a time for women to secure the vote, followed by a war where men fought and women kept countries going, the 1920's were a time of promiscuity and hedonism, the 1930's and 40' saw women again working to keep whole countries going while men fought. Then the swing back to conservatism in the 1950s designed to keep everyone under control, breeding and working to get countries going again after the war, followed by the backlash of the 60's and 70's where its all about free love, sexual freedom, and protest at the establishment. What next? The 80's where it's all about high flyers, making money and spending up large, the 90's see a semi return to 70's type thinking and here we are in the naughties. At war, and consuming way more than we can sustain. If women now have the vote, have crashed through the glass ceiling and are also rearing children and running households it's only because of the myth left over from the feminist movement that we could have it all. Someone forgot to mention, not all at once. And if men are slow to catch up on that or some of them are utilizing it to their advantage, that's ok, it's what we've come to expect. But sooner or later, things will change again. And sooner or later true equality must be realized. Because too many of us want it. Men and women. It's just that many of us don't know it yet. We are due for a period of free love, and personal growth just as soon as all this warmongering settles down. And hopefully the insidious conservatism that is beginning to pervade everything. I can't imagine that people won't be sick of being so strait laced soon enough. And perhaps it will be revisited then. That's my predicition anyways. But I don't doubt that we will continue to move forward.
Oh and just because I'm a minority doesn't mean I'm wrong!
Well I'm a firm believer in "don't dream it be it"! So if you want it to change you have to "make it so No 1"! And if I can change my desire for a diamond ring, a husband, 2.4 kids and a perfect house then anybody can. I simply have to take what I've learned out into the world and make the information available to others. Now besides posting the article here who else did you speak to about it? And really ss, I think you are masquerading a little bit.
I mean do you honestly expect me to believe that you come here, rant and rave, promote the stance that you do but when you are in the world you behave like a neanderthal? I think not. This situation can be changed. It has been already. As long as we move forward with both genders being heard.
I think there a plenty of guys out there that do housework, and take care of the child rearing, that stay at home with the kids, and I only have to try to get into Bunnings on a Saturday to know that at least half of their customers are now women. Women who want to learn to DIY. Women who can buy their own damn jewellery. What I didn't see on your survey was what the marriage/cohabitation rates are. Because I think that possibly they have dropped, just like in other parts of the world. Which kinda null and voids the issue anyway. Look as far as I can see, the 1900's were a time for women to secure the vote, followed by a war where men fought and women kept countries going, the 1920's were a time of promiscuity and hedonism, the 1930's and 40' saw women again working to keep whole countries going while men fought. Then the swing back to conservatism in the 1950s designed to keep everyone under control, breeding and working to get countries going again after the war, followed by the backlash of the 60's and 70's where its all about free love, sexual freedom, and protest at the establishment. What next? The 80's where it's all about high flyers, making money and spending up large, the 90's see a semi return to 70's type thinking and here we are in the naughties. At war, and consuming way more than we can sustain. If women now have the vote, have crashed through the glass ceiling and are also rearing children and running households it's only because of the myth left over from the feminist movement that we could have it all. Someone forgot to mention, not all at once. And if men are slow to catch up on that or some of them are utilizing it to their advantage, that's ok, it's what we've come to expect. But sooner or later, things will change again. And sooner or later true equality must be realized. Because too many of us want it. Men and women. It's just that many of us don't know it yet. We are due for a period of free love, and personal growth just as soon as all this warmongering settles down. And hopefully the insidious conservatism that is beginning to pervade everything. I can't imagine that people won't be sick of being so strait laced soon enough. And perhaps it will be revisited then. That's my predicition anyways. But I don't doubt that we will continue to move forward.
Oh and just because I'm a minority doesn't mean I'm wrong!
im curious what stance you think i promote here. im not even sure i have one. nor do i see what relevance marriage rates would have on this survery. free love was a failed experiment and the conservatism we both dislike is simply a reaction to the excess of the free love movement. i dont doubt things are more equal now than they have been, nor that they will continue to be equal. but equal does not mean "the same." and all i posted this for was discussion about at what point does the pursuit of being the same hurt our happiness? equal opportunity and access is important to have as an option, but does it mean we should continue to choose options that make us unhappy just becos they are there? im not saying women should stay home and men should go to work, but i am saying women should not feel they have to work a job they dont want to prove they are independent, and men should not be prohibitied from staying home and raising kids becos they feel it is unmasculine. it should be about breaking down barriers to happiness and fulfillment, not replacing one form of expectations with another.
im curious what stance you think i promote here. im not even sure i have one. nor do i see what relevance marriage rates would have on this survery. free love was a failed experiment and the conservatism we both dislike is simply a reaction to the excess of the free love movement. i dont doubt things are more equal now than they have been, nor that they will continue to be equal. but equal does not mean "the same." and all i posted this for was discussion about at what point does the pursuit of being the same hurt our happiness? equal opportunity and access is important to have as an option, but does it mean we should continue to choose options that make us unhappy just becos they are there? im not saying women should stay home and men should go to work, but i am saying women should not feel they have to work a job they dont want to prove they are independent, and men should not be prohibitied from staying home and raising kids becos they feel it is unmasculine. it should be about breaking down barriers to happiness and fulfillment, not replacing one form of expectations with another.
Well your survey mentioned women taking on greater domestic roles on top of working and men allowing this to happen. I just figure if you're not married then this wouldn't really be the case right? I mean I don't know any single women who are going to work a full day, then race around to some blokes house and do the housework on top of that just for the hell of it. So this could really only be happening in marriage/cohabitation situations. I was thinking if the marriage rate had actually dropped, which it has in many parts of the world, then perhaps all the doom and gloom is not quite as the survey presents it. I mean, it's only an article and one survey. Otherwise, I think all that you have said I am in agreement about. Well I didn't really like your obsession with engagement rings, but then Ahnimus has that too so perhaps it's a bit of a phobia sweeping the country!!
As to men and women being the same, I would hate that. And I would never advocate that we try to blur the gender roles so much that we lose our intrinsic differences. But I'm fairly certain that's not going to happen. The physical differences alone should be enough to ensure that doesn't happen.
Comments
In a relationship, I think it is a balance. I'll be honest, I am not the pillar of strength, so if my husband offers to carry my bags at the airport, them I let him. Of course, I'll open the doors for him
It doesn't have to be a 'battle of the sexes'. Yes, there are jerky, superficial guys & there are catty, superficial girls, a lot of them unfortunately. I'm thinking most of the posts in this thread were in jest, at least I'm hoping so.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Yes, I've done my time with the "needy" of this world.
It's all about because I "want" to now.
And if I end up on my own because of it, that's perfectly ok with me.
I'll never give up my independence again to play "gender roles" with someone.
I guess that eventually, as you get older, or as you learn (don't want ahnimus thundering down on me here!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
This is cool, Jeanie. Too many relationships are co-dependent. You have to be able to love & take care of yourself before you can love & take care of someone else.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I'm all about Yin and Yang baraka. And I agree that there are differences between the sexes. And we just need to understand and compliment each other. When it all gets down to it, if you are with the right person for you, it all gets sorted out pretty quickly as far as I can see. Because you want it to be that way. And so does he.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Exactly!! Because you deserve to be the best you can be and you deserve to be with someone who is striving for the same thing. Regardless of what sex you are.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Oh I know that I am "complete" right now. That I know myself and that I'll keep learning and growing as I go along. I think maybe learning and growing together could be difficult, but I'm willing to give it a go. BUT be buggered I'm eating my eggs any way other than how I feel like them on the day!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
This is a very common predicament, unfortunately. Some people feel they need a partner in their life to feel good about themselves. The 'taking care of' should always be mutual and if you are confident with yourself & love yourself, you don't need a partner to feel self worth. That's a backwards way of entering into a relationship and you set yourself up for disappointment.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Absolutely! It's about self love, which is not the same thing as conceit. A person who is conceited cares about what others think, a person with self love couldn't care less about another's opinion of them.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
So how come we've got all this angst going on then?
If I know this and you know this and so many people that I know do too,
why so much with the gender inequality still? It always amazes me when I come across it. Like I've stumbled onto a dinosaur or something!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Those are some hard questions and I'm not awake yet, Jeanie!
I don't know why so many are like that. I think maybe people 'give up' and revert back to old comfortable habits. And it's hard to overcome years of programming, as well. I think people tend to focus on the bad things, opposed to the good. A lot of women still feel repressed, due to a variety of reasons and men feel uncomfortable with the changing roles. Maybe they get 'mixed' messages on what women really want. I think it boils down to selecting a mate that is right for you, compliments you. Nothing like a bad relationship to diminish your opinion of the opposite sex!
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
that's not true.
becos you, your friends, and the 100 people on the pearl jam message pit aren't enough people to even become a majority sentiment in a small ohio town.
Sorry!!
Yes I agree with what you are saying. I think it is a lot like that for many people. And I think the day to day does wear people down. It's hard to put on your best face when you're late for work, the boss gives you shit all day, you are stuck in a queue at the supermarket and you finally stagger in the door and your partner has had a shit day too. I guess it requires a lot of patience and understanding on both sides of the fence. And some forthought and planning.
I don't know about bad relationships dimishing my opinion of the opposite sex. I've had a series of really shitty relationships culminating in the last one which was the ultimate in shitty relationships, but I don't hold that against men. I think it was just indicative of those men. The last one in particular, was such a violent, self absorbed individual, that I was determined not to allow his bad behaviour to taint my enjoyment of men. I think I do ok. I'm pretty happy with the way things are going in the man department these days.
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What's not ss?
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women getting lighter sentences. i mentioned it earlier. there's a link in the original article discussing how this is a myth and just a bunch of media hoopla.
Good for you Jeanie! We hurt ourselves when we let others define how we should feel, and it's so easy to fall into that trap. You have a great perspective, that's why you are a self sufficient, self loving person. Props to you!!!
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
No, that's true, but if you were to take these small statistics and run the demographic against the rest of the country perhaps you might find some more who felt this way. The study was done in another country was it not?
To have true stats would it not make sense to sample from all over the world?
I mean the stats as the appear in your article do not even apply to your country.
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Thanks baraka.
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what study? the original study posted? i was talking more about how you and your friends aren't indicative of the norm of behavior. in general, pearl jam fans are well off the norm of society. you dont get into pearl jam's music if you're a mindless sex and the city acolyte. pearl jam fans are on the whole, far more liberal than average, better educated, wealthier, etc. we are not even close to a middle section of society.
and yes, the survey of the original post was conducted in sweden. i just thought it was interesting. sweden is more liberal than the US... they're kind of the cradle of liberal socialism... they dont marry as much, cohabit more, better health care, etc. so if their women are suffering from equality, id really like to see how it looks over here.
but my reply was to point out that your friends and this tiny little corner of the internet by no means indicates that your xp of how liberal and un-materialistic women are. you're not the norm. just as most guys around here aren't the norm of male behavior.
Well I did read that ss, but I assumed you were talking about America.
I was referring to Australia and it has been the case here that women who have sexual relations with minors have not been subject to the same sentencing as men.
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Righto! Got it! And you may have a point. But surely how I view the world, shapes the world I am in? Therefore would it not stand to reason that in my world this study or survey is not the "norm"? And that if I accept gender inequality I am helping to promote it? And by not accepting it I am in the position to help to bring about change in the world?
I'm not saying that gender inequality doesn't exist. Clearly it does. But I don't accept that it is the way things have to stay.
Oh and just for the record, I don't hate you at all.
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and the precious.
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
becos your question asked why we have all this angst going on. how you view the world does not shape the world you are in, only your perception of it. you ask why the angst... becos most of the men here meet their women in the real world. and they are by and large everyday women, not rabidly political pearl jam fans or chicks they picked up at the 2nd annual women who hate jewelry convention. so they deal with this shit and get frustrated. women deal with the same thing. thus why the angst... the world out there is vastly different from the ideal we talk about here. yeah, we dont have to accept stereotypes and can work to change them, but on the whole, we cannot change the way other people think and see the world very easily. which means that most women still demand a diamond ring and most men still expect her to do the housework.
and for the record, im glad to hear that but you're in the minority on that one i think
Ha ha, and women never feel the same frustrations towards men :rolleyes:
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
"women deal with the same thing."
"and most men still expect her to do the housework."
it's fun to only look for what you want in posts isnt it?
:rolleyes:
Well I'm a firm believer in "don't dream it be it"! So if you want it to change you have to "make it so No 1"! And if I can change my desire for a diamond ring, a husband, 2.4 kids and a perfect house then anybody can. I simply have to take what I've learned out into the world and make the information available to others. Now besides posting the article here who else did you speak to about it? And really ss, I think you are masquerading a little bit.
I mean do you honestly expect me to believe that you come here, rant and rave, promote the stance that you do but when you are in the world you behave like a neanderthal? I think not. This situation can be changed. It has been already. As long as we move forward with both genders being heard.
I think there a plenty of guys out there that do housework, and take care of the child rearing, that stay at home with the kids, and I only have to try to get into Bunnings on a Saturday to know that at least half of their customers are now women. Women who want to learn to DIY. Women who can buy their own damn jewellery. What I didn't see on your survey was what the marriage/cohabitation rates are. Because I think that possibly they have dropped, just like in other parts of the world. Which kinda null and voids the issue anyway. Look as far as I can see, the 1900's were a time for women to secure the vote, followed by a war where men fought and women kept countries going, the 1920's were a time of promiscuity and hedonism, the 1930's and 40' saw women again working to keep whole countries going while men fought. Then the swing back to conservatism in the 1950s designed to keep everyone under control, breeding and working to get countries going again after the war, followed by the backlash of the 60's and 70's where its all about free love, sexual freedom, and protest at the establishment. What next? The 80's where it's all about high flyers, making money and spending up large, the 90's see a semi return to 70's type thinking and here we are in the naughties. At war, and consuming way more than we can sustain. If women now have the vote, have crashed through the glass ceiling and are also rearing children and running households it's only because of the myth left over from the feminist movement that we could have it all. Someone forgot to mention, not all at once. And if men are slow to catch up on that or some of them are utilizing it to their advantage, that's ok, it's what we've come to expect. But sooner or later, things will change again. And sooner or later true equality must be realized. Because too many of us want it. Men and women. It's just that many of us don't know it yet. We are due for a period of free love, and personal growth just as soon as all this warmongering settles down. And hopefully the insidious conservatism that is beginning to pervade everything. I can't imagine that people won't be sick of being so strait laced soon enough. And perhaps it will be revisited then. That's my predicition anyways. But I don't doubt that we will continue to move forward.
Oh and just because I'm a minority doesn't mean I'm wrong!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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"aaah the precious!! we wants it we do!!!"
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im curious what stance you think i promote here. im not even sure i have one. nor do i see what relevance marriage rates would have on this survery. free love was a failed experiment and the conservatism we both dislike is simply a reaction to the excess of the free love movement. i dont doubt things are more equal now than they have been, nor that they will continue to be equal. but equal does not mean "the same." and all i posted this for was discussion about at what point does the pursuit of being the same hurt our happiness? equal opportunity and access is important to have as an option, but does it mean we should continue to choose options that make us unhappy just becos they are there? im not saying women should stay home and men should go to work, but i am saying women should not feel they have to work a job they dont want to prove they are independent, and men should not be prohibitied from staying home and raising kids becos they feel it is unmasculine. it should be about breaking down barriers to happiness and fulfillment, not replacing one form of expectations with another.
Well your survey mentioned women taking on greater domestic roles on top of working and men allowing this to happen. I just figure if you're not married then this wouldn't really be the case right? I mean I don't know any single women who are going to work a full day, then race around to some blokes house and do the housework on top of that just for the hell of it. So this could really only be happening in marriage/cohabitation situations. I was thinking if the marriage rate had actually dropped, which it has in many parts of the world, then perhaps all the doom and gloom is not quite as the survey presents it. I mean, it's only an article and one survey. Otherwise, I think all that you have said I am in agreement about. Well I didn't really like your obsession with engagement rings, but then Ahnimus has that too so perhaps it's a bit of a phobia sweeping the country!!
As to men and women being the same, I would hate that. And I would never advocate that we try to blur the gender roles so much that we lose our intrinsic differences. But I'm fairly certain that's not going to happen. The physical differences alone should be enough to ensure that doesn't happen.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift