Ok...so you can see the relationship between the actions of individuals and the creation of "gender roles" and "social norms"? That makes me wonder why you said this:
"On an individual bases, but we are discussing social norms and gender roles"
On an individual bases, but we are discussing social norms and gender roles. Not my ex-girlfriend.
Where do you think these gender roles come from? Do you think women in large numbers are adopting the types of behavior that drive men away? That doesn't seem likely, now does it?
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Where do you think these gender roles come from? Do you think women in large numbers are adopting the types of behavior that drive men away? That doesn't seem likely, now does it?
Western gender roles are rooted in thousands of years of individual contribution. That's what I'm referring to, if one person out of a trillion that have come and gone throughout the evolution of society, feels a certain way, it doesn't speak for all of society.
Society as a whole now is merely a collection of individuals, but, since most of these individuals are mere sheep to the norms set out by the previous generations, I don't see how they can be equal things. Social norms are the collection of opinions from a collection of trillions of individuals over a collection of several thousand years.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
lol, I just thought of an analogy to the questions the two of you have asked.
Why are you talking about consciousness as if it's different than the neurons in your brain? Oh wait, cause it's a collection of neurons, that ontologically give rise to a subjective state of awareness, where no single neuron creates the whole picture, but all working collectively create the picture.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Western gender roles are rooted in thousands of years of individual contribution. That's what I'm referring to, if one person out of a trillion that have come and gone throughout the evolution of society, feels a certain way, it doesn't speak for all of society.
Huh? What the hell do you think you're doing here:
"What hasn't changed is their desire for some level of chivalry. As if true equality makes Valentine's day a woman's day. As if a man owes it to his fiance' to buy her an expensive diamond ring."
This speaks for "all of society", in your opinion?
Society as a whole now is merely a collection of individuals, but, since most of these individuals are mere sheep to the norms set out by the previous generations, I don't see how they can be equal things.
Equal to what? It intruiges me that you would say the above.
Social norms are the collection of opinions from a collection of trillions of individuals over a collection of several thousand years.
lol, I just thought of an analogy to the questions the two of you have asked.
Why are you talking about consciousness as if it's different than the neurons in your brain?
Who is doing this?
Oh wait, cause it's a collection of neurons, that ontologically give rise to a subjective state of awareness, where no single neuron creates the whole picture, but all working collectively create the picture.
Huh? What the hell do you think you're doing here:
"What hasn't changed is their desire for some level of chivalry. As if true equality makes Valentine's day a woman's day. As if a man owes it to his fiance' to buy her an expensive diamond ring."
This speaks for "all of society", in your opinion?
No, it's called a social norm.
Equal to what? It intruiges me that you would say the above.
Each other.
This is cool.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
If the expectation of fancy presents and diamond rings have been a big problem in your life, what can I say .... you've been hanging out with the wrong women.
Maybe I know a lot of the wrong women but it doesn't seem like too long ago that they gave themselves a raise in the engagement ring department from two months' salary to three.
Wow, talk about getting bogged down in trivialities! Valentine's Day? This is what you're worked up about, gender inequalities inherent in Valentine's Day celebrations? Miffed that you might be expected to open a door?
If the expectation of fancy presents and diamond rings have been a big problem in your life, what can I say .... you've been hanging out with the wrong women.
But you can't deny what he's talking about isn't indicative of all society.
Because analogously speaking, your view of consciousness is in contradiction to your view of society. Can we not consider consciousness and society as being two things that come from the same basic structure?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Maybe I know a lot of the wrong women but it doesn't seem like too long ago that they gave themselves a raise in the engagement ring department from two months' salary to three.
hahaha!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
So you don't think these "social norms" speak for "all of society"? Yet you do think that a "desire for chivalry", "Valentine's day a woman's day", and "a man owes it to his fiance' to buy her an expensive diamond ring" are social norms that somehow invalidate equality???
Each other.
Yeah, equal kind of implies that. What I'm asking you is to name the "eaches". What are you rejecting an equation on? An individual's actions and a social norm?
So you don't think these "social norms" speak for "all of society"? Yet you do think that a "desire for chivalry", "Valentine's day a woman's day", and "a man owes it to his fiance' to buy her an expensive diamond ring" are social norms that somehow invalidate equality???
Yeah, equal kind of implies that. What I'm asking you is to name the "eaches". What are you rejecting an equation on? An individual's actions and a social norm?
I'm just looking for clarification here.
Sure
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Hehe...where have I ever said that consciousness is greater than the sum of its parts?
Because analogously speaking, your view of consciousness is in contradiction to your view of society. Can we not consider consciousness and society as being two things that come from the same basic structure?
Depends on what you mean here. A "brain" cannot be a "brain" if you separate that which comprises it. A "brain" is an absolute.
A society, on the other hand, is not an absolute. If you separate that which comprises it, you've lost absolutely nothing.
So, you're saying that individuals can differ from social norms. This means that individuals can differ from each other, regardless of dominant social norms. And since individuals differ from each other, are you saying that, "equality" would only be found in a situation wherein some individuals rejected their individuality and embraced social norms or wherein the majority rejected their social norms and embraced the individuality of others?????
Hehe...where have I ever said that consciousness is greater than the sum of its parts?
Depends on what you mean here. A "brain" cannot be a "brain" if you separate that which comprises it. A "brain" is an absolute.
A society, on the other hand, is not an absolute. If you separate that which comprises it, you've lost absolutely nothing.
I disagree
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
So, you're saying that individuals can differ from social norms. This means that individuals can differ from each other, regardless of dominant social norms. And since individuals differ from each other, are you saying that, "equality" would only be found in a situation wherein some individuals rejected their individuality and embraced social norms or wherein the majority rejected their social norms and embraced the individuality of others?????
I'm saying social norms regulate equality. We are never going to be rid of them or gender roles. The best we can do is try to convert enough people to change what is socially normal.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
What about the matters of young women teachers getting off with nothing for having sex with a 15 year old student but reverse it for a man and he will be demonized (not that I agree with this sort of thing but using a current example of gender inequality).
Read an article from a woman stating women should not be punsished the same for these types of sexual assaults because there is different underlying phsycological reasons for her doing it than a man.
Bullshit I say.
I agree gender equality seems to be only situationally based.
there's a link within this article that says that this is actually not true. women are punished almost identically to men for the same such crimes.
Do "social norms" regulate 1+1 = 2? If society decides that 5 apples will feed 5,000,000 people, does that make it true?
No, that's reality. Something most people aren't in touch with.
That's the best you can do? Conversion?
Got a better idea?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
wait wait wait, now that I think about it, the girls bags won't be so heavy if they just packed less clothing. I mean my bags are always much lighter then whenever I travel with the females. it's like they carry bricks.
this isn't funny. it's annoyingly true. i can pack one backpack of stuff for a week long trip. my gf cant visit me for a weekend and fit all her shit in the same bag.
No, that's reality. Something most people aren't in touch with.
Quite, yes. Now, don't you think reality dictates equality, as opposed to just "social norms"?
Got a better idea?
Yes -- recognizing the difference between a "social norm" and that which defines you. At that point, "conversion" becomes about the most unnecessary thing you could possibly think of. What purpose would be served by "converting" someone else?
Quite, yes. Now, don't you think reality dictates equality, as opposed to just "social norms"?
I don't think reality really cares about equality. Reality is not just. If reality cared about equality, we'd all be androgynous or hemaphrodites.
Yes -- recognizing the difference between a "social norm" and that which defines you. At that point, "conversion" becomes about the most unnecessary thing you could possibly think of. What purpose would be served by "converting" someone else?
The greatest influence on an individual is society, and therefor social norms are inherently as popular as the phrase implies.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I didn't ask you if reality cares about anything. I asked you if reality dictates equality or not?
Ultimately, through deconstructing causation, the big bang dictated every state of equality since the dawn of the universe. What's your point?
Hehe...the greatest influence on an individual is gravity, not society. And that list is pretty long before you get to "society".
Looks like we got another Piaget wanna be.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Hehe...if "you" actually believed that "you" really wouldn't be too worried about "trying" to "convert" people.
Hey, at least your insults are getting a bit more interesting.
You've totally lost me FFG, what is your point?
When your talking about conversion of individual beliefs as if reality won't allow it, I just don't understand what you are saying. It's almost like you are trying to communicate within my perspective, but you don't really understand my perspective.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
Ok...so you can see the relationship between the actions of individuals and the creation of "gender roles" and "social norms"? That makes me wonder why you said this:
"On an individual bases, but we are discussing social norms and gender roles"
From the footage I've seen....yes
Western gender roles are rooted in thousands of years of individual contribution. That's what I'm referring to, if one person out of a trillion that have come and gone throughout the evolution of society, feels a certain way, it doesn't speak for all of society.
Society as a whole now is merely a collection of individuals, but, since most of these individuals are mere sheep to the norms set out by the previous generations, I don't see how they can be equal things. Social norms are the collection of opinions from a collection of trillions of individuals over a collection of several thousand years.
Why are you talking about consciousness as if it's different than the neurons in your brain? Oh wait, cause it's a collection of neurons, that ontologically give rise to a subjective state of awareness, where no single neuron creates the whole picture, but all working collectively create the picture.
Huh? What the hell do you think you're doing here:
"What hasn't changed is their desire for some level of chivalry. As if true equality makes Valentine's day a woman's day. As if a man owes it to his fiance' to buy her an expensive diamond ring."
This speaks for "all of society", in your opinion?
Equal to what? It intruiges me that you would say the above.
This is cool.
Who is doing this?
Yes. Why is this so shocking or insightful?
No, it's called a social norm.
Each other.
Maybe I know a lot of the wrong women but it doesn't seem like too long ago that they gave themselves a raise in the engagement ring department from two months' salary to three.
But you can't deny what he's talking about isn't indicative of all society.
You in conversations on consciousness.
Because analogously speaking, your view of consciousness is in contradiction to your view of society. Can we not consider consciousness and society as being two things that come from the same basic structure?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
So you don't think these "social norms" speak for "all of society"? Yet you do think that a "desire for chivalry", "Valentine's day a woman's day", and "a man owes it to his fiance' to buy her an expensive diamond ring" are social norms that somehow invalidate equality???
Yeah, equal kind of implies that. What I'm asking you is to name the "eaches". What are you rejecting an equation on? An individual's actions and a social norm?
I'm just looking for clarification here.
Sure
Hehe...where have I ever said that consciousness is greater than the sum of its parts?
Depends on what you mean here. A "brain" cannot be a "brain" if you separate that which comprises it. A "brain" is an absolute.
A society, on the other hand, is not an absolute. If you separate that which comprises it, you've lost absolutely nothing.
Ok, thanks for clarifying.
So, you're saying that individuals can differ from social norms. This means that individuals can differ from each other, regardless of dominant social norms. And since individuals differ from each other, are you saying that, "equality" would only be found in a situation wherein some individuals rejected their individuality and embraced social norms or wherein the majority rejected their social norms and embraced the individuality of others?????
I disagree
I'm saying social norms regulate equality. We are never going to be rid of them or gender roles. The best we can do is try to convert enough people to change what is socially normal.
there's a link within this article that says that this is actually not true. women are punished almost identically to men for the same such crimes.
Do "social norms" regulate 1+1 = 2? If society decides that 5 apples will feed 5,000,000 people, does that make it true?
That's the best you can do? Conversion?
No, that's reality. Something most people aren't in touch with.
Got a better idea?
this isn't funny. it's annoyingly true. i can pack one backpack of stuff for a week long trip. my gf cant visit me for a weekend and fit all her shit in the same bag.
Quite, yes. Now, don't you think reality dictates equality, as opposed to just "social norms"?
Yes -- recognizing the difference between a "social norm" and that which defines you. At that point, "conversion" becomes about the most unnecessary thing you could possibly think of. What purpose would be served by "converting" someone else?
The greatest influence on an individual is society, and therefor social norms are inherently as popular as the phrase implies.
I didn't ask you if reality cares about anything. I asked you if reality dictates equality or not?
Hehe...the greatest influence on an individual is gravity, not society. And that list is pretty long before you get to "society".
Ultimately, through deconstructing causation, the big bang dictated every state of equality since the dawn of the universe. What's your point?
Looks like we got another Piaget wanna be.
Hehe...if "you" actually believed that "you" really wouldn't be too worried about "trying" to "convert" people.
Hey, at least your insults are getting a bit more interesting.
You've totally lost me FFG, what is your point?
When your talking about conversion of individual beliefs as if reality won't allow it, I just don't understand what you are saying. It's almost like you are trying to communicate within my perspective, but you don't really understand my perspective.
angels share laughter
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