Well, for one thing, it's debatable whether preventing someone from being born is the same as killing them. But, for the sake of argument, let's say it is. Here are some of my thoughts on the subject:
1. The whole "does the baby want to be born or not?" question assumes that a fetus or embryo has free will to even have a desire one way or the other. Given especially that nearly 90% of abortions occur in the first trimester, I think it's really a BIG stretch to say that they do. And yet people frequently imply that abortion kills babies against their will. Mustn't they first prove that a fetus has a free will before they can say it's even possible for us to go againt it?
2. Even if a fetus had a free will, now it must be shown that the will of the fetus is to be born before abortions can be said to violate that will. This hasn't and can't be shown. I understand your point that we also can't show that a fetus wants to not be born, and I agree. But I'm not trying to say a fetus necessarily wants to not be born like others are saying it necessarily wants to be born. My whole point is that you (or whoever) don't know any more than I do, so that argument can't fly.
3. Then you might say, "you can't undo killing someone so you better let them be born just in case that's what they wanted, and then they can decide to kill themselves if you were wrong." But what about the injustice that would be done if you were wrong? Wouldn't it be just as wrong to make someone be born who didn't want to be born as to prevent someone from being born who did want to be born? Why is one more wrong than the other? After all, dying in the womb results in unfathomably less suffering (physical and emotional) than dying in the world.
4. We just don't know if a baby wants to be born or if it doesn't. Until someone shows me otherwise, let's say there's a 50/50 chance either way. If a fetus were able to let us know that it wanted to be born, I would say it should be up to it and we shouldn't defy its wishes. But since it can't make that decision, it falls to someone else to make the decision for it. There is no better person to make this decision on behalf of the fetus than the mother (ideally in counsel with the father, the doctor, and God). Even if the baby were born and a life support decision needed to be made, the mother & father would have to make it. It's a difficult and complicated decision, and it's certainly not the place of you or me or any politicians or churches to judge it as black and white and make it for anyone else's child.
5. See #1.
(It's okay if you missed it; I know I've posted a lot on this thread. )
I am Christian and I am pro-choice. It's not your place to tell me I'm not a Christian. You do not have the monopoply on Christianity.
Furthermore, I'll go so far as to say that I believe Jesus was pro-choice.
Additionally, nearly 2/3 of women who have abortions in the U.S. are Christians. Their faith and prayer guided them to abortion.
Yeah, Jesus would have definitely been pro-choice... The long hair and the beard are a dead give away!
Seriously though, that's way off. I think the beatitudes would best explain that no matter how raw of a deal you are dealt, faith and love of God will always make things alright. People will always suffer, whether you are in elite America dreamland, or the poorest parts of Africa, obviously some worse than others-- but, if you believe, there is something greater in store for all of us. Speaking to you, Christian to Christian, what is the greatest gift God has given us? Life? You betcha. Why not try and PROTECT (yeah, I said protect) it, especially here, in America Candyland-- where most of these procedures are, in all likelihood, the worst form of birth control.
Yes, you make good points about the rest of the world, and the women not having a choice to even procreate / have sex or not. Again, why does the child get deprived of life?
And Christian to Christian, did Mary have a choice?
Seriously though, that's way off. I think the beatitudes would best explain that no matter how raw of a deal you are dealt, faith and love of God will always make things alright. People will always suffer, whether you are in elite America dreamland, or the poorest parts of Africa, obviously some worse than others-- but, if you believe, there is something greater in store for all of us.
Yes, but that doesn't mean we should allow those here to suffer.
Why not try and PROTECT (yeah, I said protect) it, especially here, in America Candyland-- where most of these procedures are, in all likelihood, the worst form of birth control.
Abortion as birth control - another catch phrase everyone spouts off but can't support.
Although there have been countries that use abortion as birth control, thankfully America is not one of them. If a sexually active woman were to use abortion as her method of birth control and wanted two children, she would have about 30 abortions by the age of 45. I don't know even one single woman who has had that many abortions, do you?
Yes, you make good points about the rest of the world, and the women not having a choice to even procreate / have sex or not. Again, why does the child get deprived of life?
Again, why do you use the word deprived as if to imply that life is right for everyone? I was just pointing out that you were wrong when you said all women have a choice regarding sex.
Yes, but that doesn't mean we should allow those here to suffer.
No, not life. Love. Love and compassion for one another, which is what prevents me from judging.
Abortion as birth control - another catch phrase everyone spouts off but can't support.
Although there have been countries that use abortion as birth control, thankfully America is not one of them. If a sexually active woman were to use abortion as her method of birth control and wanted two children, she would have about 30 abortions by the age of 45. I don't know even one single woman who has had that many abortions, do you?
Again, why do you use the word deprived as if to imply that life is right for everyone? I was just pointing out that you were wrong when you said all women have a choice regarding sex.
Well that depends on how you define choice.
LOVE. That is a great answer. However, I will see that, and raise you God's Love as being the greatest gift. Within that, is all that he has given us, including this whole world for us to share with each other. That's why I use the word "deprived." Again, I believe it goes back to faith. Through faith, you can and will be delivered from any harm, and will get to enjoy this gift of a world, if not the next one. Some would argue that you have to "endure" this world to partake in the next. Which, here comes a potential great divide among Christians: Catholics - The Catechism claims that aborted babies end up in Limbo, aka a lesser level of Hell. I don't know what protestants believe. Honestly, I don't know what I believe on that subject. If that is true, then it is pretty explicit that aborted babies are "saved" from terrible earth, but then endure a much worse existence. OUCH. What happens to the people who put them there? Not sure I want to know...
When people spout off the phrase "abortion as birth control," they specifically refer to the people whose other forms of birth control have failed them and have looked at the child as a matter of inconvenience. The woman was pregnant, and did something about it. BOOM. Birth Control. Hopefully, no one goes through abortions like they go through condoms. Was that the wrong use of the term? For people who think that abortion is terribly wrong, and actually murder, I don't think they care how it's used.
How is life "right" for anyone at all?-- now there's a question. Who understands it? Who really knows their purpose here? Who is truly happy? If you were to be born into the "right" life, who's to say tragedy doesn't hit seconds later! Not fair, God! You tricked me! It's a mystery we won't understand till we leave this world for the next, which to people like myself, and yourself, that's what it's all about, right?
Limbo or not, I do believe everyone with the opportunity to experience this world, should. Arguing on a message board probably isn't the most fruitful approach to trying to ensure this for people.
I find it ironic that the pro-choice movement doesn't want anyone to tell anyone else what to do with their bodies-- yet, people who have abortions completely rob someone of their body and life, with no choice for that person in the matter... Especially in America, where there ALWAYS are other options.
With that, I just felt like I had to say my piece (peace?). It's been a lively debate. Take care, and responsibility.
I am Christian and I am pro-choice. It's not your place to tell me I'm not a Christian. You do not have the monopoply on Christianity.
Furthermore, I'll go so far as to say that I believe Jesus was pro-choice.
Additionally, nearly 2/3 of women who have abortions in the U.S. are Christians. Their faith and prayer guided them to abortion.
I second that. I do not clearly know what Jesus would do (WWJD?) as my fellow pompous christians would claim (I purposely did not capitalize the "C" in Christian to point to their lack of credibility in my terms), but I DO know that many of the thoughts and opinions about both people and things have been made up by people who share the same thoughts and ideas so that they SEEM very Jesus-like.
The main thing people forget is that He was humble and said He came for the sick as well as He was there to protect the weak. And some may say that the "weak" could be the fetus'......ok, maybe. But who is to say that the "weak" is not the mother of that fetus who perhaps is ill, poor, abused, on drugs, too young, too crazed, etc............the list goes on.
We tread dangerous ground when we pretend to know what Jesus would do or how He would judge.
sorry,.........
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
Well, there you go, that is where it shoudl start, because whether you are pro-choice or pro-life, we all benefit from eliminating the need for abortions...the argument/disagreement/conversation goes away to a large extent.
If we could convince the people bombing planned parenthood centers of this, we'd be in good shape. I think most reasonable people agree that the need for abortions is to be avoided.
San Diego 10/25/00, Mountain View 6/1/03, Santa Barbara 10/28/03, Northwest School 3/18/05, San Diego 7/7/06, Los Angeles 7/9/06, 7/10/06, Honolulu (U2) 12/9/06, Santa Barbara (EV) 4/10/08, Los Angeles (EV) 4/12/08, Hartford 6/27/08, Mansfield 6/28/08, VH1 Rock Honors The Who 7/12/08, Seattle 9/21/09, Universal City 9/30/09, 10/1/09, 10/6/09, 10/7/09, San Diego 10/9/09, Los Angeles (EV) 7/8/11, Santa Barbara (EV) 7/9/11, Chicago 7/19/13, San Diego 11/21/13, Los Angeles 11/23/13, 11/24/13, Oakland 11/26/13, Chicago 8/22/16, Missoula 8/13/18, Boston 9/2/18, Los Angeles 2/25/22 (EV), San Diego 5/3/22, Los Angeles 5/6/22, 5/7/22, Imola 6/25/22, Los Angeles 5/21/24, [London 6/29/24], [Boston 9/15/24]
If we could convince the people bombing planned parenthood centers of this, we'd be in good shape. I think most reasonable people agree that the need for abortions is to be avoided.
And yet, sadly, these same "reasonable people" don't agree that we should have sytems in place to help people avoid it (e.g. access to birth control, comprehensive sex education).
If we could convince the people bombing planned parenthood centers of this, we'd be in good shape. I think most reasonable people agree that the need for abortions is to be avoided.
And what percentage of the anti-abortion crowd has ever bombed an abortion clinic?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
And what percentage of the anti-abortion crowd has ever bombed an abortion clinic?
Well, "thou shalt not kill" has a few different meanings I have been told. It also implies that one should not do anything to kill the spirit of another human being. So, when the protesters stand in front of an abortion clinic, and scream at young girls, "don't KILL YOUR BABY!!", then, to me, that is a form of violence in their "peaceful" protesting.
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
I second that. I do not clearly know what Jesus would do (WWJD?) as my fellow pompous christians would claim (I purposely did not capitalize the "C" in Christian to point to their lack of credibility in my terms), but I DO know that many of the thoughts and opinions about both people and things have been made up by people who share the same thoughts and ideas so that they SEEM very Jesus-like.
The main thing people forget is that He was humble and said He came for the sick as well as He was there to protect the weak. And some may say that the "weak" could be the fetus'......ok, maybe. But who is to say that the "weak" is not the mother of that fetus who perhaps is ill, poor, abused, on drugs, too young, too crazed, etc............the list goes on.
We tread dangerous ground when we pretend to know what Jesus would do or how He would judge.
sorry,.........
Just because the mother is "weak" does not mean Jesus would support aborting the child. There are responsibilities for actions....Jesus wasn't a get out of jail free card.
What abortion is weakminded, self-centric, undisciplined women (probably 80% of the time) not taking responsibility. It is crazy that women don't realize you can get pregnant from having sex.
Just because the mother is "weak" does not mean Jesus would support aborting the child. There are responsibilities for actions....Jesus wasn't a get out of jail free card.
What abortion is weakminded, self-centric, undisciplined women (probably 80% of the time) not taking responsibility. It is crazy that women don't realize you can get pregnant from having sex.
I wouldn't put this all on the women...they have a partner in this you know.
Just because the mother is "weak" does not mean Jesus would support aborting the child. There are responsibilities for actions....Jesus wasn't a get out of jail free card.
What abortion is weakminded, self-centric, undisciplined women (probably 80% of the time) not taking responsibility. It is crazy that women don't realize you can get pregnant from having sex.
I think that most abortions are done on young women. I could be wrong but I do wonder.........
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
Just because the mother is "weak" does not mean Jesus would support aborting the child. There are responsibilities for actions....Jesus wasn't a get out of jail free card.
I don't believe anyone said Jesus would necessarily support aborting a child. What we said is that he was pro-choice, which means he would be compassionate & non-judgemental toward women no matter what their decision, and realize it is God - not man - to whom they will be held accountable.
What abortion is weakminded, self-centric, undisciplined women (probably 80% of the time) not taking responsibility. It is crazy that women don't realize you can get pregnant from having sex.
Most women realize you can get pregnant from having sex (in the developed world, anyway). That's why most women ARE responsible and disciplined and on birth control. And if you think making the decision to have an abortion is weak-minded and selfish, you obviously have very little (if any) experience with what it's like to make that decision.
Regardless, are you in support of abortion rights for the other 20% of women then?
Speaking to you, Christian to Christian, what is the greatest gift God has given us? Life? You betcha.
It's been said before, but nope.
Actually I think scb is right on this one. Our reason for being on earth is to love others. Life in itself, as a short time on earth, actually means next to nothing apart from that.
Jesus actually said 'Whoever wants to gain their life will lose it', which essentially means no one can claim a 'right' to life and whoever clings onto it as if it's all there is will learn that all good things come to an end.
Love and compassion, acceptance and understanding - all reasons we're put here. Not simply to enjoy 'life' for its own sake (whatever 'life' is). The problem with people being militantly 'pro-life' is that it immediately tars everyone who isn't as a guilty murderer - which is hardly a Christian stance. 'Pro-life' is a horrible word because by comparison, anyone who isn't must be 'Pro-death'.
Nobody likes abortion. Not even pro-choicers.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
And yet, sadly, these same "reasonable people" don't agree that we should have sytems in place to help people avoid it (e.g. access to birth control, comprehensive sex education).
i for one would LOVE to see increased access to reproductive health care and comprehensive sex ed on the 2008 democratic national platform!
The number of abortions that happen due to rape or incest is probably less than one percent. The rest is due to peoples lack of judgement and not fully understanding the consequences of their actions.... That is one big Mulligan if you ask me.
Actually I think scb is right on this one. Our reason for being on earth is to love others. Life in itself, as a short time on earth, actually means next to nothing apart from that.
Jesus actually said 'Whoever wants to gain their life will lose it', which essentially means no one can claim a 'right' to life and whoever clings onto it as if it's all there is will learn that all good things come to an end.
Love and compassion, acceptance and understanding - all reasons we're put here. Not simply to enjoy 'life' for its own sake (whatever 'life' is). The problem with people being militantly 'pro-life' is that it immediately tars everyone who isn't as a guilty murderer - which is hardly a Christian stance. 'Pro-life' is a horrible word because by comparison, anyone who isn't must be 'Pro-death'.
The number of abortions that happen due to rape or incest is probably less than one percent. The rest is due to peoples lack of judgement and not fully understanding the consequences of their actions.... That is one big Mulligan if you ask me.
i can't believe it took so long for someone to finally end the mystery of the unintended pregnancy crisis!
americans really must be dumber than all other developed nations because we have the highest teen pregnancy rate of them all!
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
The number of abortions that happen due to rape or incest is probably less than one percent. The rest is due to peoples lack of judgement and not fully understanding the consequences of their actions.... That is one big Mulligan if you ask me.
It's true that in the U.S. about 1% of abortions are due to reported rape/incest. About 3% are because the mother has a health problem. About 3% are because the fetus has a health problem. Also, 74% of American women who have abortions do so because of concern for and/or responsibility to other individuals and 73% can't afford to have (another) baby at that point. Additionally, 58% of pregnancies that end in abortion were due to concraceptive failure.
It's true that in the U.S. about 1% of abortions are due to reported rape/incest. About 3% are because the mother has a health problem. About 3% are because the fetus has a health problem. Also, 74% of American women who have abortions do so because of concern for and/or responsibility to other individuals and 73% can't afford to have (another) baby at that point. Additionally, 58% of pregnancies that end in abortion were due to concraceptive failure.
How do they get this information? I'm guessing an interview/paperwork filled out by the individual getting the abortion.
Honestly, I think that 58% of abortions from "contraception failure" is probably misrepresented significantly. But I have no data to proove that. Just that if I were having an abortion and someone asked why, I wouldn;t say that I didn't use a contraceptive, I'd blame it on the contraceptive failing...if you catch my drift.
Anyhow, for the 1% from rape, etc...as a society we need to create an environment where woman feel comfortable and free to report all cases...and prosecute harshly any rapist...that should help reduce that number.
For the 3% due to a mother's health...if the mother's life is in danger, an abortion seems like a reasonable option, and a tough one ot make for the family, but certainly reasonable.
For the 3% due to the baby's health, I'd like to know more about this...it scares me that we may end up with a society where we get rid of everyone that isn't "normal"...not saying that's what this is all about, but it worries me. Liek a baby that has Down's...do they stay or do they go?
For the remaining 93%, we need a comprehensive sex education program. We need to let people know where affordable contraception is available. That shoudl drive those numbers down.
In the end, we will hopefully have a society that values life...is educated...and takes responsibilty.
yeah and most of them are pro-guns too....but will always argue of course that "guns don't kill people, people kill people." true...but it's very hard to kill someone without a gun.
He's at a Catholic Diocese conference and Catholic teaching values life...therefore, we are against abortion and capital punishment. Most Catholics are not "pro-war" nor "pro-gun".
I'm Catholic and Pro-LIFE in every way you can apply it.
"Life is an opportunity, benefit from it.
Life is beauty, admire it.
Life is bliss, taste it.
Life is a dream, realize it.
Life is a challenge, meet it.
Life is a duty, complete it.
Life is a game, play it.
Life is a promise, fulfill it.
Life is sorrow, overcome it.
Life is a song, sing it.
Life is a struggle, accept it.
Life is a tragedy, confront it.
Life is an adventure, dare it.
Life is luck, make it.
Life is too precious, do not destroy it.
Life is life, fight for it."
-Mother Teresa
He's at a Catholic Diocese conference and Catholic teaching values life...therefore, we are against abortion and capital punishment. Most Catholics are not "pro-war" nor "pro-gun".
I'm Catholic and Pro-LIFE in every way you can apply it.
"Life is an opportunity, benefit from it.
Life is beauty, admire it.
Life is bliss, taste it.
Life is a dream, realize it.
Life is a challenge, meet it.
Life is a duty, complete it.
Life is a game, play it.
Life is a promise, fulfill it.
Life is sorrow, overcome it.
Life is a song, sing it.
Life is a struggle, accept it.
Life is a tragedy, confront it.
Life is an adventure, dare it.
Life is luck, make it.
Life is too precious, do not destroy it.
Life is life, fight for it."
-Mother Teresa
I don't mean to be a Cynical Simon but did she actually write that or did it just say it in an emotionally manipulative chain e-mail?
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
How do they get this information? I'm guessing an interview/paperwork filled out by the individual getting the abortion.
Honestly, I think that 58% of abortions from "contraception failure" is probably misrepresented significantly. But I have no data to proove that. Just that if I were having an abortion and someone asked why, I wouldn;t say that I didn't use a contraceptive, I'd blame it on the contraceptive failing...if you catch my drift.
Anyhow, for the 1% from rape, etc...as a society we need to create an environment where woman feel comfortable and free to report all cases...and prosecute harshly any rapist...that should help reduce that number.
For the 3% due to a mother's health...if the mother's life is in danger, an abortion seems like a reasonable option, and a tough one ot make for the family, but certainly reasonable.
For the 3% due to the baby's health, I'd like to know more about this...it scares me that we may end up with a society where we get rid of everyone that isn't "normal"...not saying that's what this is all about, but it worries me. Liek a baby that has Down's...do they stay or do they go?
For the remaining 93%, we need a comprehensive sex education program. We need to let people know where affordable contraception is available. That shoudl drive those numbers down.
In the end, we will hopefully have a society that values life...is educated...and takes responsibilty.
My mother is a retired special education teacher. She had a family who had five children with Down Syndrome. Strict Catholics -- no birth control, no abortions.
Obviously, this is a personal choice (as of right now). But I mention it because you brought up Down's. I think for me it would be a no-brainer.
San Diego 10/25/00, Mountain View 6/1/03, Santa Barbara 10/28/03, Northwest School 3/18/05, San Diego 7/7/06, Los Angeles 7/9/06, 7/10/06, Honolulu (U2) 12/9/06, Santa Barbara (EV) 4/10/08, Los Angeles (EV) 4/12/08, Hartford 6/27/08, Mansfield 6/28/08, VH1 Rock Honors The Who 7/12/08, Seattle 9/21/09, Universal City 9/30/09, 10/1/09, 10/6/09, 10/7/09, San Diego 10/9/09, Los Angeles (EV) 7/8/11, Santa Barbara (EV) 7/9/11, Chicago 7/19/13, San Diego 11/21/13, Los Angeles 11/23/13, 11/24/13, Oakland 11/26/13, Chicago 8/22/16, Missoula 8/13/18, Boston 9/2/18, Los Angeles 2/25/22 (EV), San Diego 5/3/22, Los Angeles 5/6/22, 5/7/22, Imola 6/25/22, Los Angeles 5/21/24, [London 6/29/24], [Boston 9/15/24]
I don't mean to be a Cynical Simon but did she actually write that or did it just say it in an emotionally manipulative chain e-mail?
The vast majority of these things are not actually written by the purported author. Most of it is internet b.s. that is passed on blindly by people who want to believe it came from where it did.
Also, in case anyone isn't sure, fear does not mean "False Emotions Appearing Real."
San Diego 10/25/00, Mountain View 6/1/03, Santa Barbara 10/28/03, Northwest School 3/18/05, San Diego 7/7/06, Los Angeles 7/9/06, 7/10/06, Honolulu (U2) 12/9/06, Santa Barbara (EV) 4/10/08, Los Angeles (EV) 4/12/08, Hartford 6/27/08, Mansfield 6/28/08, VH1 Rock Honors The Who 7/12/08, Seattle 9/21/09, Universal City 9/30/09, 10/1/09, 10/6/09, 10/7/09, San Diego 10/9/09, Los Angeles (EV) 7/8/11, Santa Barbara (EV) 7/9/11, Chicago 7/19/13, San Diego 11/21/13, Los Angeles 11/23/13, 11/24/13, Oakland 11/26/13, Chicago 8/22/16, Missoula 8/13/18, Boston 9/2/18, Los Angeles 2/25/22 (EV), San Diego 5/3/22, Los Angeles 5/6/22, 5/7/22, Imola 6/25/22, Los Angeles 5/21/24, [London 6/29/24], [Boston 9/15/24]
Comments
Your asking us to speak to unbron children and see if they want to be born basically.
Also, to swing it around, what proof do you have that an unborn child would rather be aborted then born?
If you're going to assert that they want to be born then, yes, I want you to give me some reason to believe that.
Nope. Which is why I never said they do.
Already answered this question anyway:
(It's okay if you missed it; I know I've posted a lot on this thread.
Yeah, Jesus would have definitely been pro-choice... The long hair and the beard are a dead give away!
Seriously though, that's way off. I think the beatitudes would best explain that no matter how raw of a deal you are dealt, faith and love of God will always make things alright. People will always suffer, whether you are in elite America dreamland, or the poorest parts of Africa, obviously some worse than others-- but, if you believe, there is something greater in store for all of us. Speaking to you, Christian to Christian, what is the greatest gift God has given us? Life? You betcha. Why not try and PROTECT (yeah, I said protect) it, especially here, in America Candyland-- where most of these procedures are, in all likelihood, the worst form of birth control.
Yes, you make good points about the rest of the world, and the women not having a choice to even procreate / have sex or not. Again, why does the child get deprived of life?
And Christian to Christian, did Mary have a choice?
Yes, but that doesn't mean we should allow those here to suffer.
No, not life. Love. Love and compassion for one another, which is what prevents me from judging.
Abortion as birth control - another catch phrase everyone spouts off but can't support.
Although there have been countries that use abortion as birth control, thankfully America is not one of them. If a sexually active woman were to use abortion as her method of birth control and wanted two children, she would have about 30 abortions by the age of 45. I don't know even one single woman who has had that many abortions, do you?
Again, why do you use the word deprived as if to imply that life is right for everyone? I was just pointing out that you were wrong when you said all women have a choice regarding sex.
Well that depends on how you define choice.
LOVE. That is a great answer. However, I will see that, and raise you God's Love as being the greatest gift. Within that, is all that he has given us, including this whole world for us to share with each other. That's why I use the word "deprived." Again, I believe it goes back to faith. Through faith, you can and will be delivered from any harm, and will get to enjoy this gift of a world, if not the next one. Some would argue that you have to "endure" this world to partake in the next. Which, here comes a potential great divide among Christians: Catholics - The Catechism claims that aborted babies end up in Limbo, aka a lesser level of Hell. I don't know what protestants believe. Honestly, I don't know what I believe on that subject. If that is true, then it is pretty explicit that aborted babies are "saved" from terrible earth, but then endure a much worse existence. OUCH. What happens to the people who put them there? Not sure I want to know...
When people spout off the phrase "abortion as birth control," they specifically refer to the people whose other forms of birth control have failed them and have looked at the child as a matter of inconvenience. The woman was pregnant, and did something about it. BOOM. Birth Control. Hopefully, no one goes through abortions like they go through condoms. Was that the wrong use of the term? For people who think that abortion is terribly wrong, and actually murder, I don't think they care how it's used.
How is life "right" for anyone at all?-- now there's a question. Who understands it? Who really knows their purpose here? Who is truly happy? If you were to be born into the "right" life, who's to say tragedy doesn't hit seconds later! Not fair, God! You tricked me! It's a mystery we won't understand till we leave this world for the next, which to people like myself, and yourself, that's what it's all about, right?
Limbo or not, I do believe everyone with the opportunity to experience this world, should. Arguing on a message board probably isn't the most fruitful approach to trying to ensure this for people.
I find it ironic that the pro-choice movement doesn't want anyone to tell anyone else what to do with their bodies-- yet, people who have abortions completely rob someone of their body and life, with no choice for that person in the matter... Especially in America, where there ALWAYS are other options.
With that, I just felt like I had to say my piece (peace?). It's been a lively debate. Take care, and responsibility.
I second that. I do not clearly know what Jesus would do (WWJD?) as my fellow pompous christians would claim (I purposely did not capitalize the "C" in Christian to point to their lack of credibility in my terms), but I DO know that many of the thoughts and opinions about both people and things have been made up by people who share the same thoughts and ideas so that they SEEM very Jesus-like.
The main thing people forget is that He was humble and said He came for the sick as well as He was there to protect the weak. And some may say that the "weak" could be the fetus'......ok, maybe. But who is to say that the "weak" is not the mother of that fetus who perhaps is ill, poor, abused, on drugs, too young, too crazed, etc............the list goes on.
We tread dangerous ground when we pretend to know what Jesus would do or how He would judge.
sorry,.........
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
If we could convince the people bombing planned parenthood centers of this, we'd be in good shape. I think most reasonable people agree that the need for abortions is to be avoided.
And yet, sadly, these same "reasonable people" don't agree that we should have sytems in place to help people avoid it (e.g. access to birth control, comprehensive sex education).
And what percentage of the anti-abortion crowd has ever bombed an abortion clinic?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Well, "thou shalt not kill" has a few different meanings I have been told. It also implies that one should not do anything to kill the spirit of another human being. So, when the protesters stand in front of an abortion clinic, and scream at young girls, "don't KILL YOUR BABY!!", then, to me, that is a form of violence in their "peaceful" protesting.
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
Just because the mother is "weak" does not mean Jesus would support aborting the child. There are responsibilities for actions....Jesus wasn't a get out of jail free card.
What abortion is weakminded, self-centric, undisciplined women (probably 80% of the time) not taking responsibility. It is crazy that women don't realize you can get pregnant from having sex.
I wouldn't put this all on the women...they have a partner in this you know.
I think that most abortions are done on young women. I could be wrong but I do wonder.........
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
I don't believe anyone said Jesus would necessarily support aborting a child. What we said is that he was pro-choice, which means he would be compassionate & non-judgemental toward women no matter what their decision, and realize it is God - not man - to whom they will be held accountable.
Most women realize you can get pregnant from having sex (in the developed world, anyway). That's why most women ARE responsible and disciplined and on birth control. And if you think making the decision to have an abortion is weak-minded and selfish, you obviously have very little (if any) experience with what it's like to make that decision.
Regardless, are you in support of abortion rights for the other 20% of women then?
In the U.S., 53% of abortions are by women <25 & 76% of abortions are by women <30.
It's been said before, but nope.
Actually I think scb is right on this one. Our reason for being on earth is to love others. Life in itself, as a short time on earth, actually means next to nothing apart from that.
Jesus actually said 'Whoever wants to gain their life will lose it', which essentially means no one can claim a 'right' to life and whoever clings onto it as if it's all there is will learn that all good things come to an end.
Love and compassion, acceptance and understanding - all reasons we're put here. Not simply to enjoy 'life' for its own sake (whatever 'life' is). The problem with people being militantly 'pro-life' is that it immediately tars everyone who isn't as a guilty murderer - which is hardly a Christian stance. 'Pro-life' is a horrible word because by comparison, anyone who isn't must be 'Pro-death'.
Nobody likes abortion. Not even pro-choicers.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
i for one would LOVE to see increased access to reproductive health care and comprehensive sex ed on the 2008 democratic national platform!
sticking up for the ladies, how feminist of you cincy!
cross the river to the eastside
Extremely well-said!
i can't believe it took so long for someone to finally end the mystery of the unintended pregnancy crisis!
americans really must be dumber than all other developed nations because we have the highest teen pregnancy rate of them all!
cross the river to the eastside
That's a whole different thread.
It's true that in the U.S. about 1% of abortions are due to reported rape/incest. About 3% are because the mother has a health problem. About 3% are because the fetus has a health problem. Also, 74% of American women who have abortions do so because of concern for and/or responsibility to other individuals and 73% can't afford to have (another) baby at that point. Additionally, 58% of pregnancies that end in abortion were due to concraceptive failure.
It's not Americans per se who are dumb... just our so-called leaders! :rolleyes:
How do they get this information? I'm guessing an interview/paperwork filled out by the individual getting the abortion.
Honestly, I think that 58% of abortions from "contraception failure" is probably misrepresented significantly. But I have no data to proove that. Just that if I were having an abortion and someone asked why, I wouldn;t say that I didn't use a contraceptive, I'd blame it on the contraceptive failing...if you catch my drift.
Anyhow, for the 1% from rape, etc...as a society we need to create an environment where woman feel comfortable and free to report all cases...and prosecute harshly any rapist...that should help reduce that number.
For the 3% due to a mother's health...if the mother's life is in danger, an abortion seems like a reasonable option, and a tough one ot make for the family, but certainly reasonable.
For the 3% due to the baby's health, I'd like to know more about this...it scares me that we may end up with a society where we get rid of everyone that isn't "normal"...not saying that's what this is all about, but it worries me. Liek a baby that has Down's...do they stay or do they go?
For the remaining 93%, we need a comprehensive sex education program. We need to let people know where affordable contraception is available. That shoudl drive those numbers down.
In the end, we will hopefully have a society that values life...is educated...and takes responsibilty.
He's at a Catholic Diocese conference and Catholic teaching values life...therefore, we are against abortion and capital punishment. Most Catholics are not "pro-war" nor "pro-gun".
I'm Catholic and Pro-LIFE in every way you can apply it.
"Life is an opportunity, benefit from it.
Life is beauty, admire it.
Life is bliss, taste it.
Life is a dream, realize it.
Life is a challenge, meet it.
Life is a duty, complete it.
Life is a game, play it.
Life is a promise, fulfill it.
Life is sorrow, overcome it.
Life is a song, sing it.
Life is a struggle, accept it.
Life is a tragedy, confront it.
Life is an adventure, dare it.
Life is luck, make it.
Life is too precious, do not destroy it.
Life is life, fight for it."
-Mother Teresa
I don't mean to be a Cynical Simon but did she actually write that or did it just say it in an emotionally manipulative chain e-mail?
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
My mother is a retired special education teacher. She had a family who had five children with Down Syndrome. Strict Catholics -- no birth control, no abortions.
Obviously, this is a personal choice (as of right now). But I mention it because you brought up Down's. I think for me it would be a no-brainer.
The vast majority of these things are not actually written by the purported author. Most of it is internet b.s. that is passed on blindly by people who want to believe it came from where it did.
Also, in case anyone isn't sure, fear does not mean "False Emotions Appearing Real."
That's a valid question...I've never fact checked it. I think so, but regardless of the source, I love the message. I have it on a bookmark! ha.