well i think it comes down to society not actually fulfilling its role as society. we area society of individuals and that is why some sections of this so called society are marginalised and quite often made to feel like pariahs.
in this instance women are made to shoulder all responsibility for procreation because we are the ones, the ONLY ones who are capable of carrying the offspring. and all is great so long as we choose to embrace our given role as human incubators. but once we decide no more that we will decide when and if we procreate and under what circumstances, then there is a breakdown in the patriarchally defined society we all live in.
youre right angelica it is something bigger than the individual. but it shouldnt be at the expense of that same individual.
I absolutely agree it shouldn't be at the expense of that individual. That's why I'm talking about solving the problems. Solving problems are about getting way out in front of it. And solutions are only solutions when the issue actually and truly disappears for all involved.
People are so used to seeing this issue in terms of the black and white abritrariness of our own minds, that we're not looking at the big picture, with the knowing that what we focus on expands. Either/or beliefs do not bring overall solutions.
Those who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the only ones who ever do.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Well, then according to that there is no point for law. There is no need for borders and boundaries.
Can I ask how you are making this leap? Drawing this conclusion? By limiting yourself to one conclusion, is it possible you are leaping past myriad possibilities that can work for everyone?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
first of all, I don't at all say she shouldn't have the right to choose.
I am saying, though, that the "human suffering and loss is less with an abortion" argument is arbitrary opinion, depending on someone's perspective. It's not a given at all.
what the heck is arbitrary opinion? is all opinion arbitrary?
do you suggest that somehow that there is no difference in the suffering from the neglegent death of a father - that has friends, a wife, children and co-workers than when a child is aborted that nobody has ever met?
or do you discount the suffering that this father's children or wife may feel as arbitrary?
what the heck is arbitrary opinion? is all opinion arbitrary?
do you suggest that somehow that there is no difference in the suffering from the neglegent death of a father - that has friends, a wife, children and co-workers than when a child is aborted that nobody has ever met?
or do you discount the suffering that this father's children or wife may feel as arbitrary?
I stand by what I said. It all depends on the context one chooses to frame the situation, what they will see. It depends on the perspective.
There can be equally horrific outcomes of abortion scenarios where numerous people are painfully and dramatically affected. In your above painted scenario, your context does not address such pain or acknowledge its existence.
Pain is pain.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Can I ask how you are making this leap? Drawing this conclusion? By limiting yourself to one conclusion, is it possible you are leaping past myriad possibilities that can work for everyone?
I guess I made the apparently unsubstantiated assumption that by proclaiming "I see there being a huge difference between our actual natural rights, and our man-made ego-based ideas where we think we "should" have this or that (and which, imo, is unrealistic)" you expressed a feeling of inadequacy and non-necessity for those 'man-made' laws you call ego-based ideas. I guess that was my mistake.
I guess I made the apparently unsubstantiated assumption that by proclaiming "I see there being a huge difference between our actual natural rights, and our man-made ego-based ideas where we think we "should" have this or that (and which, imo, is unrealistic)" you expressed a feeling of inadequacy and non-necessity for those 'man-made' laws you call ego-based ideas. I guess that was my mistake.
I did say earlier, I can see why our laws are what they are at this time. And that said, I can still see that such laws reflect our level of perception, awareness, adaptation, etc. So while I accept the way things are, I also accept the amazing potentials for basically everything that occur right this very moment.
The thing is, the degree our manmade laws are out of touch with nature will determine the degree of the pain and maladaptation we bring upon ourselves. We're always reaping the consequences of our choices. And we feel the pain of our maladaptation. And human evolutionary psychology shows we can and do progress to better choices and outcomes.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
the only right i see that people have is the right not to be fucked with.
though for me rights connote privilege and im not sure i believe in privileges for anyone above someone else.
people think they have the right to life, for example...and yet, life often says otherwise, when death speaks another story loudly. We basically have the right to life for as long as we're alive......and that's about it. But kudos to humankind for trying dominate nature! We've made plenty of advances doing so...
The problem comes in when most of us, as is the case, are attached to our stories. Then we suffer when life doesn't live up to our story of what "should" happen. And we then blame life......rather than realize our suffering is caused by us and our story.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I am saying that I see this as a much larger issue. And that I see it's highly valid to look at why we as a species are going wrong to the degree that it eventually comes down on certain individuals to take the blame/shame and the mental and emotional consequences into their bodies, minds and lives (as you and I can attest to apparently, the hardship of), when it's at the cause of something much larger than the individual.
we have practical concerns at this time, and what is happening is what it is in terms of abortion. And yet, we humans are able to theorize and to look at the bigger picture and ascertain where we can make improvements and change these dynamics...and to actually evolutionarily adapt, and weed out the necessity for such problems to arise in the first place.
Interesting post here, angela. Your take on the issue is refreshing.
looking after a sick loved one is not the same. they are not a parasitic being. they are not reliant solely on the mother for their survival. they can exist without their mother specifically.
as for the government they should never be allowed to force medical issues, or morals for that matter, onto anyone, no matter what the scenario. it is clearly up to the individual and should always be.
a one month child does not need its mother specifically for its survival. it does not have parasitic relationship to its mother as an embryo does.
sure early births survive. but none as early as when the majority of abortions take place. and they do so with a whole lot of medical intervention. there is no medial technology existing today that would allow an embryo to survive outside the mothers womb.
what is odd is you equate a live separate being with one that is not separate and thusly would never survive on its own.
make no mistake i am speaking of early pregnancy embryonic abortions. not 2nd trimester and certainly not 3rd trimester.
So, you are against 2nd trimest and 3rd trimester abortions, right?
not feeding a 1 month old causes suffering.. and I might add, that happens alot.
In your father example, I see that as different than an unborn infant, because he or she has yet to build relationships.. or memories for himself or others.. an abortion causes less human suffering than to allow a grown man to die.
in my view, in the end it is about the totality of human suffering, I believe the mother is in a better position to make that judgement than the government.
How would you punish her anyway - throw her in jail? what if she has three other children?
1st you make an "assumption" saying that abortion limits the totality of human suffering. Who are you to say that you know a woman aborting a baby will suffer less than if she did not? Who are you to say that that specific baby would not be happy as he/she grew? WHo are you to say that that baby would not develop great relationships and ADD (YES I SAID ADD) to the totality of human happiness. Who are you to say that that baby's existance in the world would bring more happiness in totality than sadness in totality? I sincerely hope you are reading this with an open-mind because I'm serious when I say, I really don't understand your point of view at all. IMHO you tend to make huge leaps of faith on this issue.... and have absolutely no foundation underneath of you. As I've said all along, I don't agree with but I can understand the argument that the fetus is not a life. I don't understand your argument at all. This "totality of suffering" is silly IMHO because there are obvious arguments to the contrary.
As for your question, I would make the act illegal, personally. But, I'm not in the position to do so. I don't know what the penalty would entail, I assume it would depend on the situation, just like most acts that are illegal.
Unfortunately, some of your posts in here have seemingly signified that the life begins at conception approach is the natural, right approach. Such a position, I feel, is equally arbitrary. Would you be willing to stipulate, then, that all we can know for sure if the United States outlaws abortion is that the mother's rights have been limited, regardless of whether that limitation is just or not?
You know, I've read the discussion and I find it very interesting that you don't take issue with those who are saying they DO believe life starts at conception and they are fine with terminating it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't believe life begins at conception, correct? If you did believe life began at conception, would you still be pro-choice?
My point in raising this issue is that there's a large disconnect between what I consider a reasonable pro-choice stance...
-a fetus is not a life, so it's OK to terminate it
... and the stance that says life begins at conception, but it's acceptable to terminate that life.
I just don't understand how someone can say the latter opinion is not reprehensible. It's officially stating that someone believes a human being is alive and they are OK with killing it. Regardless of the rationale,... it doesn't make sense to me and never will.
So, you are against 2nd trimest and 3rd trimester abortions, right?
wrong.
if im not the one having to make the call then its not my business. i shudder to even think of the circumstances that would necessitate a 3rd trimester abortion.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I wonder, do you think there should be a law against Lying? Lying is wrong, and has led to unthinkable evil. It has caused pain suffering and death.
Do you want a law against Lying?
Perhaps there are other solutions to the problem of abortions? Maybe a technological solution - where we can extract the unborn from unwilling mothers... perhaps a more perfect pill... perhaps better education... perhaps a willingness to care for unwanted children
you know like the teenagers left at the hospital in Nebraska. our society loves condemning the parents of these children, but want no part of helping them.
A law against abortion is a poor excuse for a solution to what is a number of very serious problems.
Maybe a better way to describe ourselves is "pro thinking". Because like I said before there had better be no in a picketing like at an abortion clinic that does not fully exept that responsibilty to take part in the person's life who had the baby, and not just use it to bitch against a belief.
And while I may not say I am "for it" I certainly am not against it in very many situations it is all the options there is.
so I think we agree.........
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
1st you make an "assumption" saying that abortion limits the totality of human suffering. Who are you to say that you know a woman aborting a baby will suffer less than if she did not? Who are you to say that that specific baby would not be happy as he/she grew? WHo are you to say that that baby would not develop great relationships and ADD (YES I SAID ADD) to the totality of human happiness. Who are you to say that that baby's existance in the world would bring more happiness in totality than sadness in totality? I sincerely hope you are reading this with an open-mind because I'm serious when I say, I really don't understand your point of view at all. IMHO you tend to make huge leaps of faith on this issue.... and have absolutely no foundation underneath of you. As I've said all along, I don't agree with but I can understand the argument that the fetus is not a life. I don't understand your argument at all. This "totality of suffering" is silly IMHO because there are obvious arguments to the contrary.
As for your question, I would make the act illegal, personally. But, I'm not in the position to do so. I don't know what the penalty would entail, I assume it would depend on the situation, just like most acts that are illegal.
first, I never said the mother wouldn't suffer.. though, whether you willing to admit or not, a mother's suffering at the loss of a 10 year old child is far greater than the suffering after an abortion.. AND your whole argument is designed to dismiss the pain of the mother.
I agree that any child born will undoubtedly add to human happiness.
don't back down from your view that it should be illegal and duck the issue of punishment. you are passionate that is should be illegal.. what punishment are you after, or do you just support a law just for the sake of arguement?
Plus, all the studies on abortion, done before they became political taboo, showed huge negative effects of abortion on the women who had them. These have now been swept under the rug by the politics of abortion, and the going thing is to further burden those who have emotional negative effects after abortion, by labelling them as having been weak, emotionally, to begin with. Again, more dysfunction, and more burden for the one person in our society taking it for the team of humanity when our relations break down and an unplanned pregnancy presents itself.
And that's not to mention the cancers, etc, over the long term that occurred at higher numbers in women who had abortions.
Wait, wait, wait... I've been trying to stay out of this one this time... and I know you're going to try to disagree with me here... but I have to note that your suggestions that "post-abortion sydrome" exists and that abortion causes breast cancer are completely FALSE, as has been proven repeatedly by scientific medical studies, and as I have pointed out on numerous occassions. (I'm aware that you didn't directly make these accusations, but I think they were implied in your post.)
I just don't understand how someone can say the latter opinion is not reprehensible. It's officially stating that someone believes a human being is alive and they are OK with killing it. Regardless of the rationale,... it doesn't make sense to me and never will.
Believing something is technically alive is not necessarily the same thing as believing it's a full-fledged human being.
I agree that any child born will undoubtedly add to human happiness.
Then your argument doesn't make sense. If any child born will undoubtedly add to human happiness, even if there was some suffering involved (which I don't believe to be the case), who's to say that wouldn't outweight the suffering? You? Once again, you make huge leaps of faith with no foundation.
don't back down from your view that it should be illegal and duck the issue of punishment. you are passionate that is should be illegal.. what punishment are you after, or do you just support a law just for the sake of arguement?
I'm not backing down. I said the punishment would depend upon circumstances, just like most punishments.
Wait, wait, wait... I've been trying to stay out of this one this time... and I know you're going to try to disagree with me here... but I have to note that your suggestions that "post-abortion sydrome" exists and that abortion causes breast cancer are completely FALSE, as has been proven repeatedly by scientific medical studies, and as I have pointed out on numerous occassions. (I'm aware that you didn't directly make these accusations, but I think they were implied in your post.)
This is why they say a little knowledge is dangerous.
While people are saying there are minimal complications after abortion, there are real websites online that non-judgmentally support women who have had abortions, and who in fact are experiencing these symptoms. Denial of their experiences, their views, and their symptoms, as I implied earlier, further 'victimizes' them due to our current "socially acceptable" views on abortion.
People pick and choose what they believe--scientists, too, who are highly influenced by the politics of who hires, supports and funds them. The consequences after abortion go far beyond breast cancer...they are linked to all kinds of issues...as has been written up in all kinds of medical publications.
When you are open to seek the truth rather than to support your own agenda, you will be open to what these girls who are having abortions are saying about the torment they are experiencing.
"I'm still in agony. Every day is just a struggle. I cried every single day for eight months. I've been crying for the past two hours. I went into an internet sight that shows pictures of aborted fetuses. My baby was 6 weeks old... He had a heart and eyes and a spine. Sometimes I'll be going about my day and I'll have a flashback. I did not go to sleep during the abortion. I remember everything in vivid detail. I have no one to blame but myself. No one understands. I'm told most women go on with their lives. Maybe I'm crazy. I made the biggest mistake in my life and I can't take it back. Everyday I ache to hold my baby. I listened to the baby's father... he said it was a simply procedure... he also said he would be there for me. The counselors at the clinic told me it was just tissue. I am 30 years old. I should have had my baby. I listened to all the reasons why I shouldn't have. And the world looks so different. I walk around in a daze.
"Not a single day goes by that I don't think about my child, that I killed. I am constantly reminded that I should have two children with me, not one. These are things that the pro-abortionist don't tell you. They don't tell you that you will live the rest of your life with extreme guilt, knowing that you aborted your own child. They don't tell you that you will miss this child every day of your life. They want you to believe that it is an easy fix to a very complicated problem."
"After the process I was so depressed and failed every one of my classes and suffered from PASS. ...I still suffer sometimes more than others, I cant shake the guilt and the feeling that I'm a terrible person and that it was all my fault.
"
"...Im so ashamed of what I did. Now all I want to do is get pregnant again, even though I know Im not really ready for a baby. I often feel very scared that Im going to be punished for what I did, everytime my boyfriend is late home, I start freaking out thinking he's been killed in a car crash or something, I feel like a mad woman but I can't help it, I feel like Im just waiting for the day for my punishment to come and it scares me to death. Im so selfish and i hate myself so much.
"i never forgave myself for not giving my child a chance. I know at 14 i wouldn't have made a fit mother, but i could have adopted chosen something that wouldn't leave me with the guilt and shame that i have carried for the last 8 yrs. I miss my child, and i miss the child i was before i had to make such an adult choice.. I love you dream, please forgive that 14yr old girl who decided your fate. she was weak and at your expense. I'm so sorry little girls..
"They don't deserve to die that way. That is just my opinion, I don't judge other women for there views, we're all human anyway. We all make mistakes. This is how I see it from my own experiences. I know God has forgiven me for what I did. I have just begun to forgive myself. I pray every chance I get. I pray that when I die I will see the baby I let go. I want the opportunity to say I sorry to my child. Oneday I will tell my 3 children about the brother or sister they have in heaven. I still wonder what the baby would have looked like. I have made peace with everything. Sometimes I doubt that however. It is all apart of me, apart I don't like but a part none the less.
these are mere excerpts from 3 pages of women's stories, out of 12 pages!!
'What we have discovered is that if a woman is having persistent trouble with guilt, or sadness after her abortion, or if she is suffering from PASS, part of the problem may be that she feels as if the pregnancy was a 'potential baby', and now that the pregnancy has ended, she is suffering from pregnancy loss feelings, just as if she had lost a baby through a miscarriage.
She may also be going through guilt, because she feels 'responsible' for ending the pregnancy, and ending what might have become an infant, if she had not interrupted the pregnancy. But because of the social stigma of abortion, she has no way to express these feelings of grief and loss. Plus, if she mentioned to anyone in real life that she'd had an abortion, and now was suffering from guilt and sadness over the loss of the potential baby, she'd most likely be given unhelpful responses such as:
"Well why did you have an abortion, if you wanted it?" '
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The truth of the matter is that a large number of women have abortions. And the truth is that many of these women do see the fetus as a child. They see this "procedure" as killing a baby. These women have been conditioned to dream of someday having babies.
To minimize the context of who these women are, and what they go through, for the sake of pushing an agenda here, rather than acknowledging the truth, is the true shame....
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
-Approximately 14% of women who have an abortion will miscarry a future pregnancy, and that risk increases to 200% with multiple abortions.
.....Journal of the American Medical Association, Vol. 243, (1980) pp 2495-2499.
-A teenage girl is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an abortion in the last six months.
.....Garfinkel, et.al., Stress Depression, and Suicide: A Study of Adolescents in Minnesota, Minneapolis University of Minnesota Extension Services 1986.
-A survey of post-abortive women found that:
28% attempted suicide
31% experienced suicidal feelings
60% commented that the decision to abort made their lives worse
94% regretted the decision to abort
....."Survey of Reaction to Abortion," The Post Abortion Review, Fall 1994, pp. 6-8.
-After abortion, 24% of women experience complications with later pregnancies. These include excessive bleeding, premature delivery, cervical incompetence or rupture of the placenta.
.....Acta/Obstetrics and Gynecology Scandinavia, Vol. 58 (1979), pp. 491-494, American Journal of Obs/Gyn Vol. 141 (1981), pp.769-772 and Vol. 146 (1983), pp.136-140.
-Women who abort are nearly four times more likely to start abusing alcohol or drugs.
....."New Study Confirms Link Between Abortion and Substance Abuse," The Post Abortion Review, Vol. 1 No. 3, Fall 1993.
-Tubal (ectopic) pregnancies increase by 30% after one abortion, and by 160% after 2 or more abortions.
.....American Journal of Obs.& Gyn, Vol. 160 (1988), pp. 642-6.
-The risk of placenta previa, which produces extremely severe, life-threatening bleeding during future pregnancies, is increased by 600% after an abortion.
.....American Journal of Obs. & Gyn., Vol. 141 (1981), pp. 769-772.
-Approximately 10% of women undergoing elective abortion will suffer immediate complications. The most common complications that can occur at the time of an abortion are:
perforation of the uterus
excessive bleeding
infection
embolism
retained tissue
hemorrhage
cervical injury
endotoxic shock
"boggy" uterus
failure to recognize an ectopic pregnancy
.....Warren Hern, Abortion Practice (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Company, 1990).
and so on.....
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Some sources of studies on the complications of abortion are:
- Thomas Strahan's Major Articles and Books Concerning the Detrimental Effects of Abortion
. Ashton,"They Psychosocial Outcome of Induced Abortion", British Journal of Ob&Gyn.
- "Risk of Admission to Psychiatric Institutions Among Danish Women who Experienced Induced Abortion: An Analysis on National Record Linkage,"
- "Bereavement in Post-Abortive Women: A Clinical Report", World Journal of Psychosynthesis
- The Long-Term Psychological Effects of Abortion, Portsmouth, N.H.:
- Herman, Trauma and Recovery
- Adler, "Sample Attrition in Studies of Psycho-social Sequelae of Abortion: How great a problem."
- Speckhard, "Postabortion Syndrome: An Emerging Public Health Concern," Journal of Social Issues,
- Psycho-social Stress Following Abortion
- "Predictive Factors in Emotional Response to Abortion: King's Termination Study - IV," Soc. Sci. & Med
- Psycho-social Stress Following Abortion
- "Abortion in Adolescence," Adolescence,
- "Characteristics of Pregnant Women Reporting Previous Induced Abortions," Bulletin World Health Organization,
- "Outcome of First Delivery After 2nd Trimester Two Stage Induced Abortion: A Controlled Cohort Study," Acta Obsetricia et Gynecologica
- "Association of Induced Abortion with Subsequent Pregnancy Loss," JAMA, 243:2495-2499, June 27, 1980.
- "Pregnancy Complications Following Legally Induced Abortion: An Analysis of the Population with Special Reference to Prematurity,"
- Speckhard, Psycho-social Stress Following Abortion,
- "Psychoses Following Therapeutic Abortion, Am. J. of Psychiatry
- Ritual Mourning in Anorexia Nervosa,"
- "Maternal Perinatal Risk Factors and Child Abuse,"
- "Relationship between Abortion and Child Abuse," Canadian Journal of Psychiatry,
- Aborted Women - Silent No More (Chicago: Loyola University Press, 1987), 129-30, describes a case of woman who beat her three year old son to death shortly after an abortion which triggered a "psychotic episode" of grief, guilt, and misplaced anger.
- "Contraceptive Practice and Repeat Induced Abortion: An Epidemiological Investigation," J. Biosocial Science,
- "First and Repeated Abortions: A Study of Decision-Making and Delay," J. Biosocial Science,
- "The Characteristics and Prior Contraceptive Use of U.S. Abortion Patients," Family Planning Perspectives,
- "The Abortion Experience in Private Practice," Women and Loss: Psychobiological Perspectives,
- "Predictive Factors in Emotional Response to Abortion: King's Termination Study - IV," Social Science and Medicine,
- "Emotional Distress Patterns Among Women Having First or Repeat Abortions," Obstetrics and Gynecology,
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
This is why they say a little knowledge is dangerous.
......
When you are open to seek the truth rather than to support your own agenda, you will be open to what these girls who are having abortions are saying about the torment they are experiencing.
That's exactly my point. Your comments are dangerous.
You are using only sources that are outdated and/or say what your agenda seeks to hear. You are not open to truth or reality.
I'm sure I've provided evidence refuting your erroneous claims in the past, but I don't have time to dig them all up right now.
Here are just a few citations from the American Cancer Society, the National Cancer Institute, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists - all stating that ABORTION DOES NOT CAUSE BREAST CANCER. Please note that these sources are actually timely.
early studies of the relationship between prior induced abortion and breast cancer risk have been inconsistent and are difficult to interpret because of methodologic considerations. More rigorous recent studies argue against a causal relationship between induced abortion and a subsequent increase in breast cancer risk.
source: ACOG Committee on Gynecologic Practice. ACOG Committee Opinion. Number 285, August 2003: Induced abortion and breast cancer risk. Obstet Gynecol. 2003;102:433-435.
That's exactly my point. Your comments are dangerous.
You are using only sources that are outdated and/or say what your agenda seeks to hear. You are not open to truth or reality.
I'm sure I've provided evidence refuting your erroneous claims in the past, but I don't have time to dig them all up right now.
Here are just a few citations from the American Cancer Society, the National Cancer Institute, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists - all stating that ABORTION DOES NOT CAUSE BREAST CANCER. Please note that these sources are actually timely.
source: ACOG Committee on Gynecologic Practice. ACOG Committee Opinion. Number 285, August 2003: Induced abortion and breast cancer risk. Obstet Gynecol. 2003;102:433-435.
now there are only about 20 other issues that stand regarding complications of abortion.
And all the negative personal experiences of the women who....have had negative personal experiences, post abortion.
The things is, the personal experience/truth of an individual cannot be effectively minimized.
It sounds like breast cancer is the only issue you are disputing in terms of science...
Anyone who has read the links I shared about the political nature of any post-abortion syndrome pertaining to why the voices of these women are being squelched can understand to why the experiences of these women are being ignored, or why new studies are not being done, that would go against the social accepted view within certain professions in the current socio-polical climate.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
That's exactly my point. Your comments are dangerous.
To me comments that embrace the experiences of all women, as opposed to ones that embrace only those views that support a particular political/power agenda, are much more realistic, and to the benefit of our society.
on the other hand, views that endeavor to minimize the experiences of some, for the gain of others, show they are not realistic appraisals.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
To me comments that embrace the experiences of all women, as opposed to ones that embrace only those views that support a particular political/power agenda, are much more realistic, and to the benefit of our society.
on the other hand, views that endeavor to minimize the experiences of some, for the gain of others, show they are not realistic appraisals.
How is it realistic to embrace the experiences of all women? No 2 women have had the same experiences. That is a really broad canvas and becomes completely unworkable.
A big part of the problem is that there is little to no after care for these women. When as a society we begin to take care of our people, with compassion and caring, rather than ostracize them and push them through as product rather than acknowledge their humanity, might a lot of the negative statistics be changed.
How is it realistic to embrace the experiences of all women? No 2 women have had the same experiences. That is a really broad canvas and becomes completely unworkable.
A big part of the problem is that there is little to no after care for these women. When as a society we begin to take care of our people, with compassion and caring, rather than ostracize them and push them through as product rather than acknowledge their humanity, might a lot of the negative statistics be changed.
It's only realistic to embrace the experiences of all the women involved. To somehow minimize any is to ignore or deny them and practise ignorance/denial.
To hold theories that make some of these women the problem doesn't work. It's about agenda, rather than about understanding and problem-solving.
I'm all for understanding and caring for people in pain. I think aftercare is a great idea.
What I'm not for is any argument that is put on the table, that in order to stand, must undermine or minimize these women and their experience. Those arguments show that they are built on a faulty foundation of ignorance (ignoring...denial).
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
How is it realistic to embrace the experiences of all women? No 2 women have had the same experiences. That is a really broad canvas and becomes completely unworkable.
If you find it unworkable to have acceptance and compassion for the diverse and varying experiences of women who have had abortion, then maybe understanding the diversity of women who have had abortion isn't your cup of tea....
There are many who have a natural aptitude for accepting the diversity of human experience and who have no problem embracing it. And who bring practical help to these issues.
if it's a little challenging to embrace the views of all the women who have been touched, and come up with a black/white catchall theory that allows you to feel like you've got a handle on the issue, well, welcome to reality........and welcome to the world of "we've yet to work this out in any actual problem-solving capacity as of yet"......I'm talking about real solutions, here, not the ease of mind of those who want to "help".
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
People are so used to seeing this issue in terms of the black and white abritrariness of our own minds, that we're not looking at the big picture, with the knowing that what we focus on expands. Either/or beliefs do not bring overall solutions.
Those who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the only ones who ever do.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
what the heck is arbitrary opinion? is all opinion arbitrary?
do you suggest that somehow that there is no difference in the suffering from the neglegent death of a father - that has friends, a wife, children and co-workers than when a child is aborted that nobody has ever met?
or do you discount the suffering that this father's children or wife may feel as arbitrary?
There can be equally horrific outcomes of abortion scenarios where numerous people are painfully and dramatically affected. In your above painted scenario, your context does not address such pain or acknowledge its existence.
Pain is pain.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I guess I made the apparently unsubstantiated assumption that by proclaiming "I see there being a huge difference between our actual natural rights, and our man-made ego-based ideas where we think we "should" have this or that (and which, imo, is unrealistic)" you expressed a feeling of inadequacy and non-necessity for those 'man-made' laws you call ego-based ideas. I guess that was my mistake.
The thing is, the degree our manmade laws are out of touch with nature will determine the degree of the pain and maladaptation we bring upon ourselves. We're always reaping the consequences of our choices. And we feel the pain of our maladaptation. And human evolutionary psychology shows we can and do progress to better choices and outcomes.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
the only right i see that people have is the right not to be fucked with.
though for me rights connote privilege and im not sure i believe in privileges for anyone above someone else.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
The problem comes in when most of us, as is the case, are attached to our stories. Then we suffer when life doesn't live up to our story of what "should" happen. And we then blame life......rather than realize our suffering is caused by us and our story.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Interesting post here, angela. Your take on the issue is refreshing.
So, you are against 2nd trimest and 3rd trimester abortions, right?
1st you make an "assumption" saying that abortion limits the totality of human suffering. Who are you to say that you know a woman aborting a baby will suffer less than if she did not? Who are you to say that that specific baby would not be happy as he/she grew? WHo are you to say that that baby would not develop great relationships and ADD (YES I SAID ADD) to the totality of human happiness. Who are you to say that that baby's existance in the world would bring more happiness in totality than sadness in totality? I sincerely hope you are reading this with an open-mind because I'm serious when I say, I really don't understand your point of view at all. IMHO you tend to make huge leaps of faith on this issue.... and have absolutely no foundation underneath of you. As I've said all along, I don't agree with but I can understand the argument that the fetus is not a life. I don't understand your argument at all. This "totality of suffering" is silly IMHO because there are obvious arguments to the contrary.
As for your question, I would make the act illegal, personally. But, I'm not in the position to do so. I don't know what the penalty would entail, I assume it would depend on the situation, just like most acts that are illegal.
You know, I've read the discussion and I find it very interesting that you don't take issue with those who are saying they DO believe life starts at conception and they are fine with terminating it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't believe life begins at conception, correct? If you did believe life began at conception, would you still be pro-choice?
My point in raising this issue is that there's a large disconnect between what I consider a reasonable pro-choice stance...
-a fetus is not a life, so it's OK to terminate it
... and the stance that says life begins at conception, but it's acceptable to terminate that life.
I just don't understand how someone can say the latter opinion is not reprehensible. It's officially stating that someone believes a human being is alive and they are OK with killing it. Regardless of the rationale,... it doesn't make sense to me and never will.
wrong.
if im not the one having to make the call then its not my business. i shudder to even think of the circumstances that would necessitate a 3rd trimester abortion.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Maybe a better way to describe ourselves is "pro thinking". Because like I said before there had better be no in a picketing like at an abortion clinic that does not fully exept that responsibilty to take part in the person's life who had the baby, and not just use it to bitch against a belief.
And while I may not say I am "for it" I certainly am not against it in very many situations it is all the options there is.
so I think we agree.........
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
first, I never said the mother wouldn't suffer.. though, whether you willing to admit or not, a mother's suffering at the loss of a 10 year old child is far greater than the suffering after an abortion.. AND your whole argument is designed to dismiss the pain of the mother.
I agree that any child born will undoubtedly add to human happiness.
don't back down from your view that it should be illegal and duck the issue of punishment. you are passionate that is should be illegal.. what punishment are you after, or do you just support a law just for the sake of arguement?
Wait, wait, wait... I've been trying to stay out of this one this time... and I know you're going to try to disagree with me here... but I have to note that your suggestions that "post-abortion sydrome" exists and that abortion causes breast cancer are completely FALSE, as has been proven repeatedly by scientific medical studies, and as I have pointed out on numerous occassions. (I'm aware that you didn't directly make these accusations, but I think they were implied in your post.)
Believing something is technically alive is not necessarily the same thing as believing it's a full-fledged human being.
Talk to Cate...
...she said she believes it's human and alive, and she's still OK with termination.
I'm not sure what Abu's take is, but I think he sees it the same way.
Then your argument doesn't make sense. If any child born will undoubtedly add to human happiness, even if there was some suffering involved (which I don't believe to be the case), who's to say that wouldn't outweight the suffering? You? Once again, you make huge leaps of faith with no foundation.
I'm not backing down. I said the punishment would depend upon circumstances, just like most punishments.
While people are saying there are minimal complications after abortion, there are real websites online that non-judgmentally support women who have had abortions, and who in fact are experiencing these symptoms. Denial of their experiences, their views, and their symptoms, as I implied earlier, further 'victimizes' them due to our current "socially acceptable" views on abortion.
People pick and choose what they believe--scientists, too, who are highly influenced by the politics of who hires, supports and funds them. The consequences after abortion go far beyond breast cancer...they are linked to all kinds of issues...as has been written up in all kinds of medical publications.
When you are open to seek the truth rather than to support your own agenda, you will be open to what these girls who are having abortions are saying about the torment they are experiencing.
"I'm still in agony. Every day is just a struggle. I cried every single day for eight months. I've been crying for the past two hours. I went into an internet sight that shows pictures of aborted fetuses. My baby was 6 weeks old... He had a heart and eyes and a spine. Sometimes I'll be going about my day and I'll have a flashback. I did not go to sleep during the abortion. I remember everything in vivid detail. I have no one to blame but myself. No one understands. I'm told most women go on with their lives. Maybe I'm crazy. I made the biggest mistake in my life and I can't take it back. Everyday I ache to hold my baby. I listened to the baby's father... he said it was a simply procedure... he also said he would be there for me. The counselors at the clinic told me it was just tissue. I am 30 years old. I should have had my baby. I listened to all the reasons why I shouldn't have. And the world looks so different. I walk around in a daze.
"Not a single day goes by that I don't think about my child, that I killed. I am constantly reminded that I should have two children with me, not one. These are things that the pro-abortionist don't tell you. They don't tell you that you will live the rest of your life with extreme guilt, knowing that you aborted your own child. They don't tell you that you will miss this child every day of your life. They want you to believe that it is an easy fix to a very complicated problem."
"After the process I was so depressed and failed every one of my classes and suffered from PASS. ...I still suffer sometimes more than others, I cant shake the guilt and the feeling that I'm a terrible person and that it was all my fault.
"
"...Im so ashamed of what I did. Now all I want to do is get pregnant again, even though I know Im not really ready for a baby. I often feel very scared that Im going to be punished for what I did, everytime my boyfriend is late home, I start freaking out thinking he's been killed in a car crash or something, I feel like a mad woman but I can't help it, I feel like Im just waiting for the day for my punishment to come and it scares me to death. Im so selfish and i hate myself so much.
"i never forgave myself for not giving my child a chance. I know at 14 i wouldn't have made a fit mother, but i could have adopted chosen something that wouldn't leave me with the guilt and shame that i have carried for the last 8 yrs. I miss my child, and i miss the child i was before i had to make such an adult choice.. I love you dream, please forgive that 14yr old girl who decided your fate. she was weak and at your expense. I'm so sorry little girls..
"They don't deserve to die that way. That is just my opinion, I don't judge other women for there views, we're all human anyway. We all make mistakes. This is how I see it from my own experiences. I know God has forgiven me for what I did. I have just begun to forgive myself. I pray every chance I get. I pray that when I die I will see the baby I let go. I want the opportunity to say I sorry to my child. Oneday I will tell my 3 children about the brother or sister they have in heaven. I still wonder what the baby would have looked like. I have made peace with everything. Sometimes I doubt that however. It is all apart of me, apart I don't like but a part none the less.
these are mere excerpts from 3 pages of women's stories, out of 12 pages!!
http://www.afterabortion.com/pmdd.html
http://www.afterabortion.com/faq.html
http://www.afterabortion.com/sharing.html#1
'What we have discovered is that if a woman is having persistent trouble with guilt, or sadness after her abortion, or if she is suffering from PASS, part of the problem may be that she feels as if the pregnancy was a 'potential baby', and now that the pregnancy has ended, she is suffering from pregnancy loss feelings, just as if she had lost a baby through a miscarriage.
She may also be going through guilt, because she feels 'responsible' for ending the pregnancy, and ending what might have become an infant, if she had not interrupted the pregnancy. But because of the social stigma of abortion, she has no way to express these feelings of grief and loss. Plus, if she mentioned to anyone in real life that she'd had an abortion, and now was suffering from guilt and sadness over the loss of the potential baby, she'd most likely be given unhelpful responses such as:
"Well why did you have an abortion, if you wanted it?" '
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
To minimize the context of who these women are, and what they go through, for the sake of pushing an agenda here, rather than acknowledging the truth, is the true shame....
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
.....Journal of the American Medical Association, Vol. 243, (1980) pp 2495-2499.
-A teenage girl is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an abortion in the last six months.
.....Garfinkel, et.al., Stress Depression, and Suicide: A Study of Adolescents in Minnesota, Minneapolis University of Minnesota Extension Services 1986.
-A survey of post-abortive women found that:
28% attempted suicide
31% experienced suicidal feelings
60% commented that the decision to abort made their lives worse
94% regretted the decision to abort
....."Survey of Reaction to Abortion," The Post Abortion Review, Fall 1994, pp. 6-8.
-After abortion, 24% of women experience complications with later pregnancies. These include excessive bleeding, premature delivery, cervical incompetence or rupture of the placenta.
.....Acta/Obstetrics and Gynecology Scandinavia, Vol. 58 (1979), pp. 491-494, American Journal of Obs/Gyn Vol. 141 (1981), pp.769-772 and Vol. 146 (1983), pp.136-140.
-Women who abort are nearly four times more likely to start abusing alcohol or drugs.
....."New Study Confirms Link Between Abortion and Substance Abuse," The Post Abortion Review, Vol. 1 No. 3, Fall 1993.
-Tubal (ectopic) pregnancies increase by 30% after one abortion, and by 160% after 2 or more abortions.
.....American Journal of Obs.& Gyn, Vol. 160 (1988), pp. 642-6.
-The risk of placenta previa, which produces extremely severe, life-threatening bleeding during future pregnancies, is increased by 600% after an abortion.
.....American Journal of Obs. & Gyn., Vol. 141 (1981), pp. 769-772.
-Approximately 10% of women undergoing elective abortion will suffer immediate complications. The most common complications that can occur at the time of an abortion are:
perforation of the uterus
excessive bleeding
infection
embolism
retained tissue
hemorrhage
cervical injury
endotoxic shock
"boggy" uterus
failure to recognize an ectopic pregnancy
.....Warren Hern, Abortion Practice (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Company, 1990).
and so on.....
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
- Thomas Strahan's Major Articles and Books Concerning the Detrimental Effects of Abortion
. Ashton,"They Psychosocial Outcome of Induced Abortion", British Journal of Ob&Gyn.
- "Risk of Admission to Psychiatric Institutions Among Danish Women who Experienced Induced Abortion: An Analysis on National Record Linkage,"
- "Bereavement in Post-Abortive Women: A Clinical Report", World Journal of Psychosynthesis
- The Long-Term Psychological Effects of Abortion, Portsmouth, N.H.:
- Herman, Trauma and Recovery
- Adler, "Sample Attrition in Studies of Psycho-social Sequelae of Abortion: How great a problem."
- Speckhard, "Postabortion Syndrome: An Emerging Public Health Concern," Journal of Social Issues,
- Psycho-social Stress Following Abortion
- "Predictive Factors in Emotional Response to Abortion: King's Termination Study - IV," Soc. Sci. & Med
- Psycho-social Stress Following Abortion
- "Abortion in Adolescence," Adolescence,
- "Characteristics of Pregnant Women Reporting Previous Induced Abortions," Bulletin World Health Organization,
- "Outcome of First Delivery After 2nd Trimester Two Stage Induced Abortion: A Controlled Cohort Study," Acta Obsetricia et Gynecologica
- "Association of Induced Abortion with Subsequent Pregnancy Loss," JAMA, 243:2495-2499, June 27, 1980.
- "Pregnancy Complications Following Legally Induced Abortion: An Analysis of the Population with Special Reference to Prematurity,"
- Speckhard, Psycho-social Stress Following Abortion,
- "Psychoses Following Therapeutic Abortion, Am. J. of Psychiatry
- Ritual Mourning in Anorexia Nervosa,"
- "Maternal Perinatal Risk Factors and Child Abuse,"
- "Relationship between Abortion and Child Abuse," Canadian Journal of Psychiatry,
- Aborted Women - Silent No More (Chicago: Loyola University Press, 1987), 129-30, describes a case of woman who beat her three year old son to death shortly after an abortion which triggered a "psychotic episode" of grief, guilt, and misplaced anger.
- "Contraceptive Practice and Repeat Induced Abortion: An Epidemiological Investigation," J. Biosocial Science,
- "First and Repeated Abortions: A Study of Decision-Making and Delay," J. Biosocial Science,
- "The Characteristics and Prior Contraceptive Use of U.S. Abortion Patients," Family Planning Perspectives,
- "The Abortion Experience in Private Practice," Women and Loss: Psychobiological Perspectives,
- "Predictive Factors in Emotional Response to Abortion: King's Termination Study - IV," Social Science and Medicine,
- "Emotional Distress Patterns Among Women Having First or Repeat Abortions," Obstetrics and Gynecology,
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
That's exactly my point. Your comments are dangerous.
You are using only sources that are outdated and/or say what your agenda seeks to hear. You are not open to truth or reality.
I'm sure I've provided evidence refuting your erroneous claims in the past, but I don't have time to dig them all up right now.
Here are just a few citations from the American Cancer Society, the National Cancer Institute, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists - all stating that ABORTION DOES NOT CAUSE BREAST CANCER. Please note that these sources are actually timely.
source: http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_6x_Can_Having_an_Abortion_Cause_or_Contribute_to_Breast_Cancer.asp
source: http://www.cancer.gov/cancerinfo/ere-workshop-report
source: ACOG Committee on Gynecologic Practice. ACOG Committee Opinion. Number 285, August 2003: Induced abortion and breast cancer risk. Obstet Gynecol. 2003;102:433-435.
And all the negative personal experiences of the women who....have had negative personal experiences, post abortion.
The things is, the personal experience/truth of an individual cannot be effectively minimized.
It sounds like breast cancer is the only issue you are disputing in terms of science...
Anyone who has read the links I shared about the political nature of any post-abortion syndrome pertaining to why the voices of these women are being squelched can understand to why the experiences of these women are being ignored, or why new studies are not being done, that would go against the social accepted view within certain professions in the current socio-polical climate.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
on the other hand, views that endeavor to minimize the experiences of some, for the gain of others, show they are not realistic appraisals.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
How is it realistic to embrace the experiences of all women? No 2 women have had the same experiences. That is a really broad canvas and becomes completely unworkable.
A big part of the problem is that there is little to no after care for these women. When as a society we begin to take care of our people, with compassion and caring, rather than ostracize them and push them through as product rather than acknowledge their humanity, might a lot of the negative statistics be changed.
To hold theories that make some of these women the problem doesn't work. It's about agenda, rather than about understanding and problem-solving.
I'm all for understanding and caring for people in pain. I think aftercare is a great idea.
What I'm not for is any argument that is put on the table, that in order to stand, must undermine or minimize these women and their experience. Those arguments show that they are built on a faulty foundation of ignorance (ignoring...denial).
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
There are many who have a natural aptitude for accepting the diversity of human experience and who have no problem embracing it. And who bring practical help to these issues.
if it's a little challenging to embrace the views of all the women who have been touched, and come up with a black/white catchall theory that allows you to feel like you've got a handle on the issue, well, welcome to reality........and welcome to the world of "we've yet to work this out in any actual problem-solving capacity as of yet"......I'm talking about real solutions, here, not the ease of mind of those who want to "help".
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!