Abortion is wrong, yet I am pro choice

AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,917
edited December 2008 in A Moving Train
I wonder, do you think there should be a law against Lying? Lying is wrong, and has led to unthinkable evil. It has caused pain suffering and death.

Do you want a law against Lying?

Perhaps there are other solutions to the problem of abortions? Maybe a technological solution - where we can extract the unborn from unwilling mothers... perhaps a more perfect pill... perhaps better education... perhaps a willingness to care for unwanted children

you know like the teenagers left at the hospital in Nebraska. our society loves condemning the parents of these children, but want no part of helping them.

A law against abortion is a poor excuse for a solution to what is a number of very serious problems.
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Comments

  • Brisk.Brisk. Posts: 11,567
    I just dont see what is just about bringing an unwanted child into this world. When the child is terminated it biologically has life but in reality its not really a proper 'life' so its not loosing everything that have built up.

    Just better technology and education can help unwanted children but to have a law against abortion is just absurd.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    It's an unfortunate necessity.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    i can forgive anything but a lie.
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  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    It's a pretty hypocritical stance. If it's wrong, then it's wrong.

    The whole "unwanted child" thing is pathetic, too. What if you decided you don't want the child after its born. Should you kill it?
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  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,917
    know1 wrote:
    It's a pretty hypocritical stance. If it's wrong, then it's wrong.

    The whole "unwanted child" thing is pathetic, too. What if you decided you don't want the child after its born. Should you kill it?

    I don't support abortion of any kind.. which I mentioned. My point is that making a law against it does nothing to address the many problems that lead to abortion. Abortions will continue, and other problems will grow.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    know1 wrote:
    It's a pretty hypocritical stance. If it's wrong, then it's wrong.

    The whole "unwanted child" thing is pathetic, too. What if you decided you don't want the child after its born. Should you kill it?

    if you decide that you dont want the child after its born then you put it up for adoption. a simple concept but not so simple for some in execution.


    but i disagree. you can think abortion is wrong because you think its murder. but also there are woman who know it is something they could never go through with. however that doesnt mean that they think that other people dont have that right to choose.
    honestly you do not know how you will react. you might think you do, but all the hypotheticals in the world wont help until you are in that position. .
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    hold my hand
    lie beside me
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  • Abuskedti wrote:
    I wonder, do you think there should be a law against Lying? Lying is wrong, and has led to unthinkable evil. It has caused pain suffering and death.

    Do you want a law against Lying?
    We already have this...look up "purgery"
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    Abuskedti wrote:
    I don't support abortion of any kind.. which I mentioned. My point is that making a law against it does nothing to address the many problems that lead to abortion. Abortions will continue, and other problems will grow.

    Does making a law against murder do nothing to address the many problems that lead to murder?

    By your logic, yes.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,500
    Abuskedti wrote:
    I don't support abortion of any kind.. which I mentioned. My point is that making a law against it does nothing to address the many problems that lead to abortion. Abortions will continue, and other problems will grow.


    Who dies again when you lie????????















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  • i think your premise is flawed from the beginning, personally. you start off with a definitive statement "abortion is wrong"....you add another definitive statement "lying is wrong"...and yet both statements are NOT FACT, but subjective opinions. i do not think abortions, nor lying, are 'wrong' per se. can they be? absolutely.....but not always.....



    what is considered 'wrong' is a societal construct, that varies within each society, and even within said societies, vary greatly. in a society such as ours, based vry much on personal freedoms...i think it Is a lot more open to interpretation, as it should be...
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  • I don't remember my days of being a symbiote but I would have gladly given my life to save my co-host should SHE have been in harm's way. I wasn't ever a selfish parasite.


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  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    know1 wrote:
    It's a pretty hypocritical stance. If it's wrong, then it's wrong.

    The whole "unwanted child" thing is pathetic, too. What if you decided you don't want the child after its born. Should you kill it?

    Who decides what's right or wrong?
    Talking about what someone may or not do 'after' a child is born is a completely different topic.
    And I understand that your opinion on this issue isn't your own. It's the Church's opinion, and quite frankly, the Church is nothing but a failed and outdated racket.
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,917
    i think your premise is flawed from the beginning, personally. you start off with a definitive statement "abortion is wrong"....you add another definitive statement "lying is wrong"...and yet both statements are NOT FACT, but subjective opinions. i do not think abortions, nor lying, are 'wrong' per se. can they be? absolutely.....but not always.....



    what is considered 'wrong' is a societal construct, that varies within each society, and even within said societies, vary greatly. in a society such as ours, based vry much on personal freedoms...i think it Is a lot more open to interpretation, as it should be...

    I would agree with you. I was sort of arguing even with these premises because they are those held by the so called pro-life side. I am throwing these things out because my girlfriend's daughter-in-law is passionately pro-life and I will meet her soon, and we will have a conversation. I want to be as understanding as possible.. though I understand she considers pro-choce to be pro-abortion and pro-baby-killing
  • know1 wrote:
    It's a pretty hypocritical stance. If it's wrong, then it's wrong.

    The whole "unwanted child" thing is pathetic, too. What if you decided you don't want the child after its born. Should you kill it?
    Once the child is born... it doesn't necessarily need the mother to survive.. yes it needs SOMEBODY to help it so focus on helping unwanted kids! But once it's in the womb it's relying ENTIRELY on the woman... if she feels like she's not up to the task, for WHATEVER reason, than that's entirely different to killing a child.

    If YOU want abortion to be illegal... it's up to you to ensure that unwanted kids are taken care of. You can deny this but once you get involved in the argument and take away one of the choices well you make it your moral responsibility to ensure the other options are easier.
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  • Abuskedti wrote:
    I would agree with you. I was sort of arguing even with these premises because they are those held by the so called pro-life side. I am throwing these things out because my girlfriend's daughter-in-law is passionately pro-life and I will meet her soon, and we will have a conversation. I want to be as understanding as possible.. though I understand she considers pro-choce to be pro-abortion and pro-baby-killing
    oh dear :o normally if I don't agree with somebody on something, we find a way to at least discuss it civilly, if not we get drunk and talk about completely other stuff and agree to disagree. But somebody who has a stance like that :o well I dunno... although there are some pro life people HERE who think like that but I could definitely imagine sitting down for a drink with them and having a good time. I'm not quite sure how we'd deal with this issue though... ignore it or discuss it as adults.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • eyedclaareyedclaar Posts: 6,980
    People always say that nobody is pro-abortion. Not true. I am. Abortions for everyone! Anything that amounts to less humans is A-OK by me...
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  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Who decides what's right or wrong?
    Talking about what someone may or not do 'after' a child is born is a completely different topic.
    And I understand that your opinion on this issue isn't your own. It's the Church's opinion, and quite frankly, the Church is nothing but a failed and outdated racket.

    The individual.

    My comment was directly to those who say - "I believe abortion is wrong, but I believe it should be legal".
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 16,065
    i think your premise is flawed from the beginning, personally. you start off with a definitive statement "abortion is wrong"....you add another definitive statement "lying is wrong"...and yet both statements are NOT FACT, but subjective opinions. i do not think abortions, nor lying, are 'wrong' per se. can they be? absolutely.....but not always.....



    what is considered 'wrong' is a societal construct, that varies within each society, and even within said societies, vary greatly. in a society such as ours, based vry much on personal freedoms...i think it Is a lot more open to interpretation, as it should be...

    This moral relativism is a very dangerous viewpoint. To think that murder is okay if the right people are around to agree with it is absurd. Deceit should always be wrong. If you are talking about little white lies, then I understand your point. But abortion and murder should not be judged right or wrong based on society, but should be judged right or wrong for eternity, and people can choose to observe right behavior or wrong behavior. Just because I say something is okay, and you say it is not, does not make my view right for me and your view right for you.

    If I walk down the street on my way to the grocery store and you shoot me in the head for no reason other than you want to, there should be no way that this a correct moral or ethical act. Just because a society believes it is, does not make it so. A society can be wrong.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Once the child is born... it doesn't necessarily need the mother to survive.. yes it needs SOMEBODY to help it so focus on helping unwanted kids! But once it's in the womb it's relying ENTIRELY on the woman... if she feels like she's not up to the task, for WHATEVER reason, than that's entirely different to killing a child.

    If YOU want abortion to be illegal... it's up to you to ensure that unwanted kids are taken care of. You can deny this but once you get involved in the argument and take away one of the choices well you make it your moral responsibility to ensure the other options are easier.

    If I don't get to have the sex, then it's completely NOT up to me to take care of unwanted kids. It is their CHOICE to have the kid and they should deal with it.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • This moral relativism is a very dangerous viewpoint. To think that murder is okay if the right people are around to agree with it is absurd. Deceit should always be wrong. If you are talking about little white lies, then I understand your point. But abortion and murder should not be judged right or wrong based on society, but should be judged right or wrong for eternity, and people can choose to observe right behavior or wrong behavior. Just because I say something is okay, and you say it is not, does not make my view right for me and your view right for you.

    If I walk down the street on my way to the grocery store and you shoot me in the head for no reason other than you want to, there should be no way that this a correct moral or ethical act. Just because a society believes it is, does not make it so. A society can be wrong.


    i stand by my statement. :)

    morals ARE relative, to the person and to the society, culture, country, the times they live in, etc. i believe abortion is fine, and i also believe lying is not always wrong. you may disagree......but it doesn';t change my opinion....and right now, 'society' agrees with me, the law. i cannot be jailed necessarily for lying - depends on the lie of course - nor will i be jailed for legal abortion. obviously, there are parameters for both.

    know1 wrote:
    If I don't get to have the sex, then it's completely NOT up to me to take care of unwanted kids. It is their CHOICE to have the kid and they should deal with it.

    i think we both come up with these statements every times this debate comes up. you make the statement above, to which i say......abortion IS 'dealing with it.' perhaps not in a way you personally approve of, but it is still a method of dealing with it.
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  • know1 wrote:
    If I don't get to have the sex, then it's completely NOT up to me to take care of unwanted kids. It is their CHOICE to have the kid and they should deal with it.
    yeh but they choose NOT to have the kid. If you're not having sex, you're unlikely to get anyone pregnant and have to deal with this... so do you really think you should get to decide for people who ARE having to deal with this?
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
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  • I think the issue of abortion tends to cloud the much more important issue... which is all the unwanted kids that are out there and have very little chance in life cos people are too busy debating abortion to give a fuck about them :mad:
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    there are parameters for both.

    Basically, your parameters are ridiculously confusing.... that's the problem.

    It's OK to lie under these situations.

    It's OK to have an abortion under these situations.

    It's OK to murder under these situations.


    All of the above: The grey area is vast and engulfing. With certain moral criterion you actually need to step out of the vast grey hole of "it depends" and enter into some form of black and white... or else you'll have people murdering people with absolutely no repercussions.
  • saveuplife wrote:
    Basically, your parameters are ridiculously confusing.... that's the problem.

    It's OK to lie under these situations.

    It's OK to have an abortion under these situations.

    It's OK to murder under these situations.


    All of the above: The grey area is vast and engulfing. With certain moral criterion you actually need to step out of the vast grey hole of "it depends" and enter into some form of black and white... or else you'll have people murdering people with absolutely no repercussions.


    how do you know?
    :confused:


    you have NO idea what 'my parameters' are, at all...i haven't stated them.
    all i DID state is the LAW does *agree*....in that abortion IS legal within certain circumstances, that lying in and of itself is not illegal either. the grey area IS vast...and it should be. for every time someone has an idea of a subject being entirely 'black and white'.......there always seems to be exceptions. this is mostly due to the fact that life is not black and white, but many shades of grey. 'morals' are our own ways of dealing with the greys, putting order and standards. life is what it is....and morals and standards have changed vastly and will continue to morph with the times. that IS living.
    Stay with me...
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  • saveuplife wrote:
    Basically, your parameters are ridiculously confusing.... that's the problem.

    It's OK to lie under these situations.

    It's OK to have an abortion under these situations.

    It's OK to murder under these situations.


    All of the above: The grey area is vast and engulfing. With certain moral criterion you actually need to step out of the vast grey hole of "it depends" and enter into some form of black and white... or else you'll have people murdering people with absolutely no repercussions.
    sometimes lying is necessary... sometimes murder is necessary (it's called self defence)
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    sometimes lying is necessary... sometimes murder is necessary (it's called self defence)

    Your use of the word necessary is subjective IMHO.
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    how do you know?
    :confused:


    you have NO idea what 'my parameters' are, at all...i haven't stated them.
    all i DID state is the LAW does *agree*....in that abortion IS legal within certain circumstances, that lying in and of itself is not illegal either. the grey area IS vast...and it should be. for every time someone has an idea of a subject being entirely 'black and white'.......there always seems to be exceptions. this is mostly due to the fact that life is not black and white, but many shades of grey. 'morals' are our own ways of dealing with the greys, putting order and standards. life is what it is....and morals and standards have changed vastly and will continue to morph with the times. that IS living.


    Can you say lying is wrong? How about murder? How about the holocaust?
  • saveuplife wrote:
    Your use of the word necessary is subjective IMHO.
    How? There are certain situations that call for lying. There are some situations that call for killing somebody. This is fact but it's also subjective I guess. If you don't kill somebody who's trying to kill you, you die! It's self preservation and natural. Lying can be used for the same reason.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • saveuplife wrote:
    Can you say lying is wrong? How about murder? How about the holocaust?



    why?
    what does it have to do with the topic?


    i think it's all well and good for people to believe abortion is wrong, tis certainly their right and perogative. i take zero issue with it. i actually applaud people like the OP in stating that for him abortion is wrong, but he is still pro-choice. i agree with that line of thinking. i don't agree when others try to push their own personal morality on others though. and sure, i disagreed with the statement that 'abortion is wrong' b/c it may be in his mind, but it doesn't make it so. i personally do not see it as 'wrong' at all. i do not seeing lying as necessarily always being 'wrong'. i personally think murder is wrong, but then someone may argue with me that abortion is murder,and i don't think it is - and other circumstances as well....so it all goes by your definition there. i think the holocaust was wrong....but i fail to see what any of this 'proves'...but i am sure it is all meant to be loaded questions to prove some point of yours.




    i really wish outofbreath/dan would post this survey/quiz he once did.....it just about encompasses all the ideas of 'moral relativism' and the social constrcuts, etc...it was utterly fascinating.
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