Abortion is wrong, yet I am pro choice

urbanhippie

saveuplife wrote:

Personally, I don't see the connection at all.

I don't think they would feel guilty/shameful or regretful for bringing their child into the world and giving him/her to loving parents (or keeping it). Especially, when the alternative was to terminate that child. IMHO society is on my side here, or moving in that direction.... look at movies like Juno and Knocked Up.

As for the family insinuation,.... there's another option.... keep the child, if you really feel the need to tell your children, you can say that the pregancy was not planned but in life you just can't wash mistakes away.... talk about a lesson in personal responsibility and love in an age of immediate gratification and me, me, me.

I respectfully believe you are over-simplifying a very complex issue.

IMO not many people choose abortion believing to be an easy way out of responsibilties. Some people choose it because other responsibilities overwhelm them already.

saveuplife

urbanhippie wrote:

I respectfully believe you are over-simplifying a very complex issue.

IMO not many people choose abortion believing to be an easy way out of responsibilties. Some people choose it because other responsibilities overwhelm them already.

I don't think it's over-simplifying to say... unprotected sex "may" equate to pregnancy.... if it does, I may be unhappy at first but I'll accept it because I knew what may occur at the outset. IMHO that's personal responsibility.

The alternative is to say, who gives a f if I get preganant, I can always abort it. IMHO that's oversimplification and just plain wrong. But, once again, my opinion.

decides2dream

saveuplife wrote:

I don't think it's over-simplifying to say... unprotected sex "may" equate to pregnancy.... if it does, I may be unhappy at first but I'll accept it because I knew what may occur at the outset. IMHO that's personal responsibility.

The alternative is to say, who gives a f if I get preganant, I can always abort it. IMHO that's oversimplification and just plain wrong. But, once again, my opinion.

seriously.........



you think the vast majority of people who may choose abortion think like that!?



btw - the 'argument' against, that one deals 'responsibly' with their actions and choices......errrrr, abortion IS dealing responsibly with their actions. perhaps not in a way you personally approve, but they ARE, none the less. btw - you are also assuming that many abortions are the results of unprotected sex.....perhaps BC failure comes into play as well. i know a few people who have gotten preganant while utilizing BC. just sayin'. nothing about pregnancy, nor the choices after the fact, is *simple.*

saveuplife

decides2dream wrote:

seriously.........



you think the vast majority of people who may choose abortion think like that!?



btw - the 'argument' against, that one deals 'responsibly' with their actions and choices......errrrr, abortion IS dealing responsibly with their actions. perhaps not in a way you personally approve, but they ARE, none the less. btw - you are also assuming that many abortions are the results of unprotected sex.....perhaps BC failure comes into play as well. i know a few people who have gotten preganant while utilizing BC. just sayin'. nothing about pregnancy, nor the choices after the fact, is *simple.*

Maybe not in those abrasive terms, but essentially... yes.

Abortion is terminating responsibility. The "problem" is the preganancy, and if that's not the problem,... it's the "child" and how much he/she will cost ect. It's terminating responsibility. Not accepting it.

You're point about there being cases of protected sex and pregancies doesn't disrupt my point whatsoever. We all know that protection is protection.... it's not 100% reliable. Therefore, once you engage in sex (protected or unprotected), IMHO you should take responsibility for any possible result of your actions.

Abuskedti

decides2dream wrote:

i *heart* sundaysilence's posts on this topic, always. always a voice of calm and reason, and full of information.


how anyone can possible disagree with lack of central nervous system = no pain perception is beyond me.




abuskedti - just an fyi - your friend may've been crying as a 'release'.....and no matter what, it all can be traumatic. we can all 'guess' or have an opinion on what we think women may feel/think about having an abortion, experiencing an abortion and it WILL be different for every woman. however, imo, most women who choose abortion, even if some sadness, i would think mostly relief. no one would choose abortion if they did not truly NOT want to have the child. and please, while sure i think most certainly all would feel like there is 'something' living inside of them....if a pregnancy is only 6-8 weeks along, depending on the timing of your cycle you may only know of your pregnancy 2-4 weeks....hardly time to form a true 'bond' with an unwanted entity. obviously, women who DO want to be preganant, they are so ecstatic from the moment they 'know'...it's almost an instant connection. i know of a few women ho have had abortions, and the overwhelming consensus was absolute relief....and sure, from then on the bulk did a far better job with BC, and all have since had families.

they were not tears of joy. it was genuine grief. I was stupid enough to ask. after looking at me like I was an idiot... she shared. yet she also added that had she been pregnant, she would have definately gone through with the abortion.

urbanhippie

saveuplife wrote:

I don't think it's over-simplifying to say... unprotected sex "may" equate to pregnancy.... if it does, I may be unhappy at first but I'll accept it because I knew what may occur at the outset. IMHO that's personal responsibility.

The alternative is to say, who gives a f if I get preganant, I can always abort it. IMHO that's oversimplification and just plain wrong. But, once again, my opinion.

You are over-simplifying if you believe that the only people who get abortions are those who are having unprotected sex, or using it as their choice of birth control.

Look at the facts. This is simply not true.

saveuplife

urbanhippie wrote:

You are over-simplifying if you believe that the only people who get abortions are those who are having unprotected sex, or using it as their choice of birth control.

Look at the facts. This is simply not true.

I know that you can get pregnant if you have protected sex too (although chances are smaller). That doesn't disrupt one aspect of my point on responsibility.

Abuskedti

saveuplife wrote:

Maybe not in those abrasive terms, but essentially... yes.

Abortion is terminating responsibility. The "problem" is the preganancy, and if that's not the problem,... it's the "child" and how much he/she will cost ect. It's terminating responsibility. Not accepting it.

You're point about there being cases of protected sex and pregancies doesn't disrupt my point whatsoever. We all know that protection is protection.... it's not 100% reliable. Therefore, once you engage in sex (protected or unprotected), IMHO you should take responsibility for any possible result of your actions.

I don't know if this is a fair questions, but I will ask anyway.. you have said that the baby can not speak for itself.... but perhaps the baby would opt not to be born - all things considered

I wonder who we should assign the responsibility of making that decision for the voiceless.... The supreme court? Or its mother?

saveuplife

Abuskedti wrote:

I don't know if this is a fair questions, but I will ask anyway.. you have said that the baby can not speak for itself.... but perhaps the baby would opt not to be born - all things considered

I wonder who we should assign the responsibility of making that decision for the voiceless.... The supreme court? Or its mother?

The chances that the baby would opt to be terminated (I would think) would be roughly the suicide rate. So, our law is killing a hell of a lot of babies that would like to be born with legalized abortion.


Who has the incentive to keep that voice silent: the mother who's asking to terminiate it (probably due to not wanting to deal with the pregancy or not wanting to deal with paying for the child) or an unbias court?

Abuskedti

saveuplife wrote:

The chances that the baby would opt to be terminated (I would think) would be roughly the suicide rate. So, our law is killing a hell of a lot of babies that would like to be born with legalized abortion.


Who has the incentive to keep that voice silent: the mother who's asking to terminiate it (probably due to not wanting to deal with the pregancy or not wanting to deal with paying for the child) or an unbias court?

too broad to compare a clean comfortabe person to an adult that has spent his entire life being conditioned to adapt and cope and survive..

you go way to far in trying to guess what that unborn would choose

saveuplife

Abuskedti wrote:

you go way to far in trying to guess what that unborn would choose

I actually think the exact same about you. Atleast I'm erring on the side where they can actually choose for themself.

decides2dream

Abuskedti wrote:

they were not tears of joy. it was genuine grief. I was stupid enough to ask. after looking at me like I was an idiot... she shared. yet she also added that had she been pregnant, she would have definately gone through with the abortion.

did i say 'joy'.....? i said tears of 'release'....which certainly may encompass grief, and a whole host of other emotions. even if she didn't miscarry and went through and had an abortion, i bet she'd still have cried....of gried...release....relief...and who knows what else. i believe being faced with an unwanted pregnancy floods a woman with a plethora of 'emotion'....and they all manifest differently.


i personally believe that abortion is rarely seen with a cavalier eye, and is a thought-out, deliberated decision. just as ANY decision about life, your future, your body...should be.


also mention a good point....the female body spontaneously aborts....aka miscarriage, often. it is theorized that most women who are sexually active spontaneously abort at least 1x in their life completely without their knowledge, and oftentimes more with their knowledge.....depending on the regularity of their menstrual cycle, how aware they are in monitoring it, etc. it is normal and natural. there are numerous 'things' that quite naturally hamper or interfere entirely with fertilized eggs, embryos, fetuses.....it happens. so for one to choose to do the same, i personally do not have a problem with it.

urbanhippie

decides2dream wrote:

did i say 'joy'.....? i said tears of 'release'....which certainly may encompass grief, and a whole host of other emotions. even if she didn't miscarry and went through and had an abortion, i bet she'd still have cried....of gried...release....relief...and who knows what else. i believe being faced with an unwanted pregnancy floods a woman with a plethora of 'emotion'....and they all manifest differently.


i personally believe that abortion is rarely seen with a cavalier eye, and is a thought-out, deliberated decision. just as ANY decision about life, your future, your body...should be.


also mention a good point....the female body spontaneously aborts....aka miscarriage, often. it is theorized that most women who are sexually active spontaneously abort at least 1x in their life completely without their knowledge, and oftentimes more with their knowledge.....depending on the regularity of their menstrual cycle, how aware they are in monitoring it, etc. it is normal and natural. there are numerous 'things' that quite naturally hamper or interfere entirely with fertilized eggs, embryos, fetuses.....it happens. so for one to choose to do the same, i personally do not have a problem with it.

Just being pregnant floods you with emotion, doesn't matter if it's planned, unplanned, wanted or not. It's overwhelming and often uncontrollable. Also she could have been crying with the physical pain of miscarrying.

Abuskedti

saveuplife wrote:

I actually think the exact same about you. Atleast I'm erring on the side where they can actually choose for themself.

I have made no assumptions about the wishes of the unborn. I only believe that the one in a better position to make decisions for the child is it's mother not the government.

saveuplife

Abuskedti wrote:

I have made no assumptions about the wishes of the unborn. I only believe that the one in a better position to make decisions for the child is it's mother not the government.

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure you are assuming that a child would prefer to have a mother (who could potentially kill them via abortion) make the decision on their life rather than having a ban on that killing by the government. Or at the very least you are assuming that it's best that way for all parties.... which brings us back to protecting the rights of the unborn child, which brings us back to the government. We can go in circles all day.

But alas, I would seriously like to ask you, all of this argument aside, do you really think that it's worthwhile to discuss this issue with your gf's daughter? As someone who is very pro-life (or anti-abortion rights, whatever you want to call it) I think through this thread, we've provided a good example of why this discussion isn't going to get you or her anywhere. Rather than discussing the issue of abortion, why not discuss something else,... maybe something where your discussion could meet some sort of common ground?

Snake

I have mixed feelings about it myself. On one side I dont agree with abortion, you had sex your gonna have a kid get the fuck over it... But Im not sure I think that its the governments place to decide if someone can or cant have one, I think its up to the parents... the stupid parents...

So hypocritical or not, I think its up to the people not the government to decide if they should have an abortion.

Sweet Emotion

Snake wrote:

I have mixed feelings about it myself. On one side I dont agree with abortion, you had sex your gonna have a kid get the fuck over it... But Im not sure I think that its the governments place to decide if someone can or cant have one, I think its up to the parents... the stupid parents...

So hypocritical or not, I think its up to the people not the government to decide if they should have an abortion.

My friend, to have or not have an abortion is a very serious decision that people, and too often, the woman alone, have to sometimes make. It is not an easy one. It is a heartbreaker and not done in any sort of cavalier, flip fashion. A lot of tears fall, before, during and after. One of the tragedies is that there is no after care for those women.
There are a number of reasons that a woman or couple may consider that influence their decision to terminate a pregnancy. It is not from stupidity.
Again, if there was a cohesive, objective and unbiased sex ed program in the states there might be less heartache. Less divisiveness.
The government should not be involved. And as those who do opt for this procedure are not criminal for doing so, you may try to find it inside yourself to manifest some understanding and compassion for what they may be trying to deal with.

Snake

Sweet Emotion wrote:

My friend, to have or not have an abortion is a very serious decision that people, and too often, the woman alone, have to sometimes make. It is not an easy one. It is a heartbreaker and not done in any sort of cavalier, flip fashion. A lot of tears fall, before, during and after. One of the tragedies is that there is no after care for those women.
There are a number of reasons that a woman or couple may consider that influence their decision to terminate a pregnancy. It is not from stupidity.
Again, if there was a cohesive, objective and unbiased sex ed program in the states there might be less heartache. Less divisiveness.
The government should not be involved. And as those who do opt for this procedure are not criminal for doing so, you may try to find it inside yourself to manifest some understanding and compassion for what they may be trying to deal with.

Oh I apologize for coming across that way... I guess Im generalizing about the stereotypical people who just instantly decide to have one because they dont want a baby no matter what. Again a crude generalization. My apologies . Im not lacking in compassion, but I can get that way sometimes.

unifiedscene

Abuskedti wrote:

I don't know if this is a fair questions, but I will ask anyway.. you have said that the baby can not speak for itself.... but perhaps the baby would opt not to be born - all things considered

I wonder who we should assign the responsibility of making that decision for the voiceless.... The supreme court? Or its mother?

I'm pro-choice, but that's the single dumbest argument for legal abortion I've ever heard of. Nothing personal.

SundaySilence

saveuplife wrote:

Hmmmm.... "may be". I hate to break it to you, but even if this was true... it's certainly not fact. The truth is there are arguments (and studies supporting these) on both sides for when pain is felt. But, neither side can factually know unless you they could feel what it feels like to an unborn child in a womb at said time and get sucked out by a vaccum.

"may be traced"

This use of "may be" refers to the knowledge we have allows us to trace the neural pathways. Not "maybe".

Someone with no EEG activity is dead. It is one criteria medical professionals use to declare someone dead. They can breath through a mechanical ventilator and their heart can be kept beating with medicine, but no brain activity means they can factually feel the same pain as an acorn.

saveuplife wrote:

As I said before, let's say the law states that no abortions after three-months are permitted,... who's to say that "unborn child in womb A" develops quicker than "unborn child in womb B"? Who's to say that it's possible that "unborn child in womb A" develops a hell of a lot quicker than the average? Who's to say he/she doesn't feel pain in under 3 months, where as (given this theoretical example) a number don't?

I agree we should err on the side of not killing any persons. But we know enough about prenatal development to know there aren't cases of 12 week pregnacies with the characteristics of a 20 week pregnancy. There is a bell curve, but it doesn't extend as far as you seem to fear. A first trimester abortion leaves plenty of margin for error.

saveuplife wrote:

Even if it was true, that "on average" limited to no pain is felt up to 3 months, that's not saying you aren't causing pain for "a number" of these unborn children. Bottom line: legislating a "date" when it's OK and when it's not, is granting the "pro-life" side a moral victory because it shows the inconsistency of the opposition's stand point. If abortion really wasn't killing a life, the timing of it wouldn't be an issue.... you should be able to do it whenever... until the unborn child is born.

We are all prolife. It is reasonable to me to protect when it begins developing that which confers an individual unique personality -brain activity. Everything else we could theoretically transplant into another person and many we do, beating heart, lungs, liver, gut, skin, eyes etc. But a brain transplant would more accurately be termed a body transplant. The superstitious timing you are using, fertilization a shuffling of proteins, is an arbitrary point along the continuous process of life. Sperm and egg cells are no more dead then a blastocyst.