again you are making my position up from thin air so you can respond. I never said anything close to "nothing else works besides abortion"... does background music play in your mind as you conjure thises things up.
I have said over and over that abortions are bad in my opinion. our efforts should be toward preventing unwanted pregnancy and toward education and help so that when they do occur, the parent will be ready and able to raise a child.
forcing women to raise children that do not want to is torture of both the woman and the child.
this is not a federal government issue.. this is a humanity issue. lets improve humanity - not sentence them. I raised a few children.. and made very few laws. Instead I informed and assisted and loved. they did the rest. My job was much more managable than 400 million americans.. and yet, my children were always the ones that know best how to handle their situations. Not me. And some how you know what is best for millions of americans... ???
Why doesn't adoption work as an alternative to abortion then? I gave substantial reasons for why this is a viable option. Do you think that they are reasonable?
I believe that most do. That's my opinion. These women had (in my opinion) a living being inside of them. They most likely felt some sort of connection to him or her (in my opinion) or what he/she could be.
OK. But what if you don't believe that a 6 week old fetus is a living being?
I believe that it has the potential to become one, but then so does every egg and every sperm. But this is by no means assured and pregancies end for a multitude of reasons.
I am not picking on you, just trying to contrast opinions.
You don't know that. No one does. Maybe it's your opinion that they should feel that. What about those that may feel relief, or nothing because they feel justified in their decision.
There was a lady that once worked for me. We had become pretty close friends. We didn't do things outside of work, but good friends at work. She once confided that she thought she was pregnant. She was desperate.. was having difficulty with her husband.. she had a 7 year old daughter.. and was absolutely sure she did not want a baby. She told me that if she was pregnant she would surely have an abortion. She spoke very much as though the pregnancy was nothing but a inconvenience and she would take care of it directly. I did not give my opinion as I felt this was no place for advice or judgement.. I just listened and encouraged her to talk and think about it. Only two days later, she was sitting alone in the corner crying. When she finally pulled herself together, she told me she had gone to the doctor and learned she just had a miscarriage. She had been pregnant only a few weeks.
OK. But what if you don't believe that a 6 week old fetus is a living being?
I believe that it has the potential to become one, but then so does every egg and every sperm. But this is by no means assured and pregancies end for a multitude of reasons.
I am not picking on you, just trying to contrast opinions.
My point is that (in my opinion) even if one doesn't believe that a 6 week old fetus is a living being beforehand, they will feel the connection during the pregnancy and will feel like it may have been alive after the abortion, but will forced to deny that feeling. Hence, the regret/guilt that I was speaking about. I think an example of this is Row (from Row v Wade).
My point is that (in my opinion) even if one doesn't believe that a 6 week old fetus is a living being beforehand, they will feel the connection during the pregnancy and will feel like it may have been alive after the abortion, but will forced to deny that feeling. Hence, the regret/guilt that I was speaking about. I think an example of this is Row (from Row v Wade).
Once again, this is my opinion.
I have spoken to a few women who have had abortions (as a healthcare professional, but also as a friend). I'm not saying that none of them regret it, but for the most part, the over-riding negative emotion felt was shame and a reluctance to let anyone else know what they had done. That's why guilt is felt. That's wrong imo.
From The New England Journal of Medicine and Harvard Medical School:
"The neural pathways for pain may be traced from sensory receptors in the skin to sensory areas in the cerebral cortex... The timing of the thalamocortical connection is of crucial importance for cortical perception... neurons in the thalamus produce axons...These fibers then "wait" just below the neocortex... and finally establish synaptic connections between 20 and 24 weeks of gestation... intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks"
i *heart* sundaysilence's posts on this topic, always. always a voice of calm and reason, and full of information.
how anyone can possible disagree with lack of central nervous system = no pain perception is beyond me.
abuskedti - just an fyi - your friend may've been crying as a 'release'.....and no matter what, it all can be traumatic. we can all 'guess' or have an opinion on what we think women may feel/think about having an abortion, experiencing an abortion and it WILL be different for every woman. however, imo, most women who choose abortion, even if some sadness, i would think mostly relief. no one would choose abortion if they did not truly NOT want to have the child. and please, while sure i think most certainly all would feel like there is 'something' living inside of them....if a pregnancy is only 6-8 weeks along, depending on the timing of your cycle you may only know of your pregnancy 2-4 weeks....hardly time to form a true 'bond' with an unwanted entity. obviously, women who DO want to be preganant, they are so ecstatic from the moment they 'know'...it's almost an instant connection. i know of a few women ho have had abortions, and the overwhelming consensus was absolute relief....and sure, from then on the bulk did a far better job with BC, and all have since had families.
I have spoken to a few women who have had abortions (as a healthcare professional, but also as a friend). I'm not saying that none of them regret it, but for the most part, the over-riding negative emotion felt was shame and a reluctance to let anyone else know what they had done. That's why guilt is felt. That's wrong imo.
Well, we disagree. As I said, I think that they feel guilt for a reason. It's not the other people that make someone feel guilty.... it's themself. If they don't believe this was wrong or have regrets about the situation, then there's no need to feel guilty.
That said, I feel bad for women in that situation. IMHO it's got to be an absolutely awful feeling, the regret, the guilt. To live with that must be horrible. That's why I'd like to see a law prevent that from ever occuring. IMHO it's not only damaging to the unborn, it's damaging to the mom. Meanwhile, so much good could come out of alternatives like adoption. But, once again, that's my opinion.
Well, we disagree. As I said, I think that they feel guilt for a reason. It's not the other people that make someone feel guilty.... it's themself. If they don't believe this was wrong or have regrets about the situation, then there's no need to feel guilty.
That said, I feel bad for women in that situation. IMHO it's got to be an absolutely awful feeling, the regret, the guilt. To live with that must be horrible. That's why I'd like to see a law prevent that from ever occuring. IMHO it's not only damaging to the unborn, it's damaging to the mom. Meanwhile, so much good could come out of alternatives like adoption. But, once again, that's my opinion.
Do you think that those who choose adoption feel no guilt, shame or regret?
Could you imagine telling your family, friends, co-workers or even a childs siblings that you were putting your child up for adoption rather than keeping it?
I am not saying adoption is not a viable alternative, it is for some. But it's not cut and dried.
Do you think that those who choose adoption feel no guilt, shame or regret?
Could you imagine telling your family, friends, co-workers or even a childs siblings that you were putting your child up for adoption rather than keeping it?
I am not saying adoption is not a viable alternative, it is for some. But it's not cut and dried.
absolutely.
also, i certainly believe in adoption, keeping a child and abortion...i think all 3 are viable options. however, i often see people mention adoption as 'the' choice over abortion if one does not want to keep a child. while i understand that thought process, and i know there are many people who want to adopt...and yet we have soooo many childen in the foster care system, so why is that? perhaps b/c most people want to adopt babies...and they want to adopt healthy babies....and quite often healthy babies that look like them. it just is what it is, no 'right' or 'wrong' there......just pointing out the fact that it IS rather simplistic to say that all unwanted pregnancies, if given up for adoption rather than aborted, all babies would end up in a happy, loving, wanted home. obviously, it simply is not the case.
Do you think that those who choose adoption feel no guilt, shame or regret?
Could you imagine telling your family, friends, co-workers or even a childs siblings that you were putting your child up for adoption rather than keeping it?
I am not saying adoption is not a viable alternative, it is for some. But it's not cut and dried.
Personally, I don't see the connection at all.
I don't think they would feel guilty/shameful or regretful for bringing their child into the world and giving him/her to loving parents (or keeping it). Especially, when the alternative was to terminate that child. IMHO society is on my side here, or moving in that direction.... look at movies like Juno and Knocked Up.
As for the family insinuation,.... there's another option.... keep the child, if you really feel the need to tell your children, you can say that the pregancy was not planned but in life you just can't wash mistakes away.... talk about a lesson in personal responsibility and love in an age of immediate gratification and me, me, me.
I don't think they would feel guilty/shameful or regretful for bringing their child into the world and giving him/her to loving parents (or keeping it). Especially, when the alternative was to terminate that child. IMHO society is on my side here, or moving in that direction.... look at movies like Juno and Knocked Up.
As for the family insinuation,.... there's another option.... keep the child, if you really feel the need to tell your children, you can say that the pregancy was not planned but in life you just can't wash mistakes away.... talk about a lesson in personal responsibility and love in an age of immediate gratification and me, me, me.
I respectfully believe you are over-simplifying a very complex issue.
IMO not many people choose abortion believing to be an easy way out of responsibilties. Some people choose it because other responsibilities overwhelm them already.
I respectfully believe you are over-simplifying a very complex issue.
IMO not many people choose abortion believing to be an easy way out of responsibilties. Some people choose it because other responsibilities overwhelm them already.
I don't think it's over-simplifying to say... unprotected sex "may" equate to pregnancy.... if it does, I may be unhappy at first but I'll accept it because I knew what may occur at the outset. IMHO that's personal responsibility.
The alternative is to say, who gives a f if I get preganant, I can always abort it. IMHO that's oversimplification and just plain wrong. But, once again, my opinion.
I don't think it's over-simplifying to say... unprotected sex "may" equate to pregnancy.... if it does, I may be unhappy at first but I'll accept it because I knew what may occur at the outset. IMHO that's personal responsibility.
The alternative is to say, who gives a f if I get preganant, I can always abort it. IMHO that's oversimplification and just plain wrong. But, once again, my opinion.
seriously.........
you think the vast majority of people who may choose abortion think like that!?
btw - the 'argument' against, that one deals 'responsibly' with their actions and choices......errrrr, abortion IS dealing responsibly with their actions. perhaps not in a way you personally approve, but they ARE, none the less. btw - you are also assuming that many abortions are the results of unprotected sex.....perhaps BC failure comes into play as well. i know a few people who have gotten preganant while utilizing BC. just sayin'. nothing about pregnancy, nor the choices after the fact, is *simple.*
you think the vast majority of people who may choose abortion think like that!?
btw - the 'argument' against, that one deals 'responsibly' with their actions and choices......errrrr, abortion IS dealing responsibly with their actions. perhaps not in a way you personally approve, but they ARE, none the less. btw - you are also assuming that many abortions are the results of unprotected sex.....perhaps BC failure comes into play as well. i know a few people who have gotten preganant while utilizing BC. just sayin'. nothing about pregnancy, nor the choices after the fact, is *simple.*
Maybe not in those abrasive terms, but essentially... yes.
Abortion is terminating responsibility. The "problem" is the preganancy, and if that's not the problem,... it's the "child" and how much he/she will cost ect. It's terminating responsibility. Not accepting it.
You're point about there being cases of protected sex and pregancies doesn't disrupt my point whatsoever. We all know that protection is protection.... it's not 100% reliable. Therefore, once you engage in sex (protected or unprotected), IMHO you should take responsibility for any possible result of your actions.
i *heart* sundaysilence's posts on this topic, always. always a voice of calm and reason, and full of information.
how anyone can possible disagree with lack of central nervous system = no pain perception is beyond me.
abuskedti - just an fyi - your friend may've been crying as a 'release'.....and no matter what, it all can be traumatic. we can all 'guess' or have an opinion on what we think women may feel/think about having an abortion, experiencing an abortion and it WILL be different for every woman. however, imo, most women who choose abortion, even if some sadness, i would think mostly relief. no one would choose abortion if they did not truly NOT want to have the child. and please, while sure i think most certainly all would feel like there is 'something' living inside of them....if a pregnancy is only 6-8 weeks along, depending on the timing of your cycle you may only know of your pregnancy 2-4 weeks....hardly time to form a true 'bond' with an unwanted entity. obviously, women who DO want to be preganant, they are so ecstatic from the moment they 'know'...it's almost an instant connection. i know of a few women ho have had abortions, and the overwhelming consensus was absolute relief....and sure, from then on the bulk did a far better job with BC, and all have since had families.
they were not tears of joy. it was genuine grief. I was stupid enough to ask. after looking at me like I was an idiot... she shared. yet she also added that had she been pregnant, she would have definately gone through with the abortion.
I don't think it's over-simplifying to say... unprotected sex "may" equate to pregnancy.... if it does, I may be unhappy at first but I'll accept it because I knew what may occur at the outset. IMHO that's personal responsibility.
The alternative is to say, who gives a f if I get preganant, I can always abort it. IMHO that's oversimplification and just plain wrong. But, once again, my opinion.
You are over-simplifying if you believe that the only people who get abortions are those who are having unprotected sex, or using it as their choice of birth control.
You are over-simplifying if you believe that the only people who get abortions are those who are having unprotected sex, or using it as their choice of birth control.
Look at the facts. This is simply not true.
I know that you can get pregnant if you have protected sex too (although chances are smaller). That doesn't disrupt one aspect of my point on responsibility.
Maybe not in those abrasive terms, but essentially... yes.
Abortion is terminating responsibility. The "problem" is the preganancy, and if that's not the problem,... it's the "child" and how much he/she will cost ect. It's terminating responsibility. Not accepting it.
You're point about there being cases of protected sex and pregancies doesn't disrupt my point whatsoever. We all know that protection is protection.... it's not 100% reliable. Therefore, once you engage in sex (protected or unprotected), IMHO you should take responsibility for any possible result of your actions.
I don't know if this is a fair questions, but I will ask anyway.. you have said that the baby can not speak for itself.... but perhaps the baby would opt not to be born - all things considered
I wonder who we should assign the responsibility of making that decision for the voiceless.... The supreme court? Or its mother?
I don't know if this is a fair questions, but I will ask anyway.. you have said that the baby can not speak for itself.... but perhaps the baby would opt not to be born - all things considered
I wonder who we should assign the responsibility of making that decision for the voiceless.... The supreme court? Or its mother?
The chances that the baby would opt to be terminated (I would think) would be roughly the suicide rate. So, our law is killing a hell of a lot of babies that would like to be born with legalized abortion.
Who has the incentive to keep that voice silent: the mother who's asking to terminiate it (probably due to not wanting to deal with the pregancy or not wanting to deal with paying for the child) or an unbias court?
The chances that the baby would opt to be terminated (I would think) would be roughly the suicide rate. So, our law is killing a hell of a lot of babies that would like to be born with legalized abortion.
Who has the incentive to keep that voice silent: the mother who's asking to terminiate it (probably due to not wanting to deal with the pregancy or not wanting to deal with paying for the child) or an unbias court?
too broad to compare a clean comfortabe person to an adult that has spent his entire life being conditioned to adapt and cope and survive..
you go way to far in trying to guess what that unborn would choose
they were not tears of joy. it was genuine grief. I was stupid enough to ask. after looking at me like I was an idiot... she shared. yet she also added that had she been pregnant, she would have definately gone through with the abortion.
did i say 'joy'.....? i said tears of 'release'....which certainly may encompass grief, and a whole host of other emotions. even if she didn't miscarry and went through and had an abortion, i bet she'd still have cried....of gried...release....relief...and who knows what else. i believe being faced with an unwanted pregnancy floods a woman with a plethora of 'emotion'....and they all manifest differently.
i personally believe that abortion is rarely seen with a cavalier eye, and is a thought-out, deliberated decision. just as ANY decision about life, your future, your body...should be.
also mention a good point....the female body spontaneously aborts....aka miscarriage, often. it is theorized that most women who are sexually active spontaneously abort at least 1x in their life completely without their knowledge, and oftentimes more with their knowledge.....depending on the regularity of their menstrual cycle, how aware they are in monitoring it, etc. it is normal and natural. there are numerous 'things' that quite naturally hamper or interfere entirely with fertilized eggs, embryos, fetuses.....it happens. so for one to choose to do the same, i personally do not have a problem with it.
did i say 'joy'.....? i said tears of 'release'....which certainly may encompass grief, and a whole host of other emotions. even if she didn't miscarry and went through and had an abortion, i bet she'd still have cried....of gried...release....relief...and who knows what else. i believe being faced with an unwanted pregnancy floods a woman with a plethora of 'emotion'....and they all manifest differently.
i personally believe that abortion is rarely seen with a cavalier eye, and is a thought-out, deliberated decision. just as ANY decision about life, your future, your body...should be.
also mention a good point....the female body spontaneously aborts....aka miscarriage, often. it is theorized that most women who are sexually active spontaneously abort at least 1x in their life completely without their knowledge, and oftentimes more with their knowledge.....depending on the regularity of their menstrual cycle, how aware they are in monitoring it, etc. it is normal and natural. there are numerous 'things' that quite naturally hamper or interfere entirely with fertilized eggs, embryos, fetuses.....it happens. so for one to choose to do the same, i personally do not have a problem with it.
Just being pregnant floods you with emotion, doesn't matter if it's planned, unplanned, wanted or not. It's overwhelming and often uncontrollable. Also she could have been crying with the physical pain of miscarrying.
I actually think the exact same about you. Atleast I'm erring on the side where they can actually choose for themself.
I have made no assumptions about the wishes of the unborn. I only believe that the one in a better position to make decisions for the child is it's mother not the government.
I have made no assumptions about the wishes of the unborn. I only believe that the one in a better position to make decisions for the child is it's mother not the government.
I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure you are assuming that a child would prefer to have a mother (who could potentially kill them via abortion) make the decision on their life rather than having a ban on that killing by the government. Or at the very least you are assuming that it's best that way for all parties.... which brings us back to protecting the rights of the unborn child, which brings us back to the government. We can go in circles all day.
But alas, I would seriously like to ask you, all of this argument aside, do you really think that it's worthwhile to discuss this issue with your gf's daughter? As someone who is very pro-life (or anti-abortion rights, whatever you want to call it) I think through this thread, we've provided a good example of why this discussion isn't going to get you or her anywhere. Rather than discussing the issue of abortion, why not discuss something else,... maybe something where your discussion could meet some sort of common ground?
I have mixed feelings about it myself. On one side I dont agree with abortion, you had sex your gonna have a kid get the fuck over it... But Im not sure I think that its the governments place to decide if someone can or cant have one, I think its up to the parents... the stupid parents...
So hypocritical or not, I think its up to the people not the government to decide if they should have an abortion.
I have mixed feelings about it myself. On one side I dont agree with abortion, you had sex your gonna have a kid get the fuck over it... But Im not sure I think that its the governments place to decide if someone can or cant have one, I think its up to the parents... the stupid parents...
So hypocritical or not, I think its up to the people not the government to decide if they should have an abortion.
My friend, to have or not have an abortion is a very serious decision that people, and too often, the woman alone, have to sometimes make. It is not an easy one. It is a heartbreaker and not done in any sort of cavalier, flip fashion. A lot of tears fall, before, during and after. One of the tragedies is that there is no after care for those women.
There are a number of reasons that a woman or couple may consider that influence their decision to terminate a pregnancy. It is not from stupidity.
Again, if there was a cohesive, objective and unbiased sex ed program in the states there might be less heartache. Less divisiveness.
The government should not be involved. And as those who do opt for this procedure are not criminal for doing so, you may try to find it inside yourself to manifest some understanding and compassion for what they may be trying to deal with.
My friend, to have or not have an abortion is a very serious decision that people, and too often, the woman alone, have to sometimes make. It is not an easy one. It is a heartbreaker and not done in any sort of cavalier, flip fashion. A lot of tears fall, before, during and after. One of the tragedies is that there is no after care for those women.
There are a number of reasons that a woman or couple may consider that influence their decision to terminate a pregnancy. It is not from stupidity.
Again, if there was a cohesive, objective and unbiased sex ed program in the states there might be less heartache. Less divisiveness.
The government should not be involved. And as those who do opt for this procedure are not criminal for doing so, you may try to find it inside yourself to manifest some understanding and compassion for what they may be trying to deal with.
Oh I apologize for coming across that way... I guess Im generalizing about the stereotypical people who just instantly decide to have one because they dont want a baby no matter what. Again a crude generalization. My apologies . Im not lacking in compassion, but I can get that way sometimes.
I don't know if this is a fair questions, but I will ask anyway.. you have said that the baby can not speak for itself.... but perhaps the baby would opt not to be born - all things considered
I wonder who we should assign the responsibility of making that decision for the voiceless.... The supreme court? Or its mother?
I'm pro-choice, but that's the single dumbest argument for legal abortion I've ever heard of. Nothing personal.
Hmmmm.... "may be". I hate to break it to you, but even if this was true... it's certainly not fact. The truth is there are arguments (and studies supporting these) on both sides for when pain is felt. But, neither side can factually know unless you they could feel what it feels like to an unborn child in a womb at said time and get sucked out by a vaccum.
"may be traced"
This use of "may be" refers to the knowledge we have allows us to trace the neural pathways. Not "maybe".
Someone with no EEG activity is dead. It is one criteria medical professionals use to declare someone dead. They can breath through a mechanical ventilator and their heart can be kept beating with medicine, but no brain activity means they can factually feel the same pain as an acorn.
As I said before, let's say the law states that no abortions after three-months are permitted,... who's to say that "unborn child in womb A" develops quicker than "unborn child in womb B"? Who's to say that it's possible that "unborn child in womb A" develops a hell of a lot quicker than the average? Who's to say he/she doesn't feel pain in under 3 months, where as (given this theoretical example) a number don't?
I agree we should err on the side of not killing any persons. But we know enough about prenatal development to know there aren't cases of 12 week pregnacies with the characteristics of a 20 week pregnancy. There is a bell curve, but it doesn't extend as far as you seem to fear. A first trimester abortion leaves plenty of margin for error.
Even if it was true, that "on average" limited to no pain is felt up to 3 months, that's not saying you aren't causing pain for "a number" of these unborn children. Bottom line: legislating a "date" when it's OK and when it's not, is granting the "pro-life" side a moral victory because it shows the inconsistency of the opposition's stand point. If abortion really wasn't killing a life, the timing of it wouldn't be an issue.... you should be able to do it whenever... until the unborn child is born.
We are all prolife. It is reasonable to me to protect when it begins developing that which confers an individual unique personality -brain activity. Everything else we could theoretically transplant into another person and many we do, beating heart, lungs, liver, gut, skin, eyes etc. But a brain transplant would more accurately be termed a body transplant. The superstitious timing you are using, fertilization a shuffling of proteins, is an arbitrary point along the continuous process of life. Sperm and egg cells are no more dead then a blastocyst.
Comments
Why doesn't adoption work as an alternative to abortion then? I gave substantial reasons for why this is a viable option. Do you think that they are reasonable?
I believe that it has the potential to become one, but then so does every egg and every sperm. But this is by no means assured and pregancies end for a multitude of reasons.
I am not picking on you, just trying to contrast opinions.
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
There was a lady that once worked for me. We had become pretty close friends. We didn't do things outside of work, but good friends at work. She once confided that she thought she was pregnant. She was desperate.. was having difficulty with her husband.. she had a 7 year old daughter.. and was absolutely sure she did not want a baby. She told me that if she was pregnant she would surely have an abortion. She spoke very much as though the pregnancy was nothing but a inconvenience and she would take care of it directly. I did not give my opinion as I felt this was no place for advice or judgement.. I just listened and encouraged her to talk and think about it. Only two days later, she was sitting alone in the corner crying. When she finally pulled herself together, she told me she had gone to the doctor and learned she just had a miscarriage. She had been pregnant only a few weeks.
I learned something that day.
My point is that (in my opinion) even if one doesn't believe that a 6 week old fetus is a living being beforehand, they will feel the connection during the pregnancy and will feel like it may have been alive after the abortion, but will forced to deny that feeling. Hence, the regret/guilt that I was speaking about. I think an example of this is Row (from Row v Wade).
Once again, this is my opinion.
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
i *heart* sundaysilence's posts on this topic, always. always a voice of calm and reason, and full of information.
how anyone can possible disagree with lack of central nervous system = no pain perception is beyond me.
abuskedti - just an fyi - your friend may've been crying as a 'release'.....and no matter what, it all can be traumatic. we can all 'guess' or have an opinion on what we think women may feel/think about having an abortion, experiencing an abortion and it WILL be different for every woman. however, imo, most women who choose abortion, even if some sadness, i would think mostly relief. no one would choose abortion if they did not truly NOT want to have the child. and please, while sure i think most certainly all would feel like there is 'something' living inside of them....if a pregnancy is only 6-8 weeks along, depending on the timing of your cycle you may only know of your pregnancy 2-4 weeks....hardly time to form a true 'bond' with an unwanted entity. obviously, women who DO want to be preganant, they are so ecstatic from the moment they 'know'...it's almost an instant connection. i know of a few women ho have had abortions, and the overwhelming consensus was absolute relief....and sure, from then on the bulk did a far better job with BC, and all have since had families.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Well, we disagree. As I said, I think that they feel guilt for a reason. It's not the other people that make someone feel guilty.... it's themself. If they don't believe this was wrong or have regrets about the situation, then there's no need to feel guilty.
That said, I feel bad for women in that situation. IMHO it's got to be an absolutely awful feeling, the regret, the guilt. To live with that must be horrible. That's why I'd like to see a law prevent that from ever occuring. IMHO it's not only damaging to the unborn, it's damaging to the mom. Meanwhile, so much good could come out of alternatives like adoption. But, once again, that's my opinion.
Could you imagine telling your family, friends, co-workers or even a childs siblings that you were putting your child up for adoption rather than keeping it?
I am not saying adoption is not a viable alternative, it is for some. But it's not cut and dried.
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
absolutely.
also, i certainly believe in adoption, keeping a child and abortion...i think all 3 are viable options. however, i often see people mention adoption as 'the' choice over abortion if one does not want to keep a child. while i understand that thought process, and i know there are many people who want to adopt...and yet we have soooo many childen in the foster care system, so why is that? perhaps b/c most people want to adopt babies...and they want to adopt healthy babies....and quite often healthy babies that look like them. it just is what it is, no 'right' or 'wrong' there......just pointing out the fact that it IS rather simplistic to say that all unwanted pregnancies, if given up for adoption rather than aborted, all babies would end up in a happy, loving, wanted home. obviously, it simply is not the case.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Personally, I don't see the connection at all.
I don't think they would feel guilty/shameful or regretful for bringing their child into the world and giving him/her to loving parents (or keeping it). Especially, when the alternative was to terminate that child. IMHO society is on my side here, or moving in that direction.... look at movies like Juno and Knocked Up.
As for the family insinuation,.... there's another option.... keep the child, if you really feel the need to tell your children, you can say that the pregancy was not planned but in life you just can't wash mistakes away.... talk about a lesson in personal responsibility and love in an age of immediate gratification and me, me, me.
I respectfully believe you are over-simplifying a very complex issue.
IMO not many people choose abortion believing to be an easy way out of responsibilties. Some people choose it because other responsibilities overwhelm them already.
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
I don't think it's over-simplifying to say... unprotected sex "may" equate to pregnancy.... if it does, I may be unhappy at first but I'll accept it because I knew what may occur at the outset. IMHO that's personal responsibility.
The alternative is to say, who gives a f if I get preganant, I can always abort it. IMHO that's oversimplification and just plain wrong. But, once again, my opinion.
seriously.........
you think the vast majority of people who may choose abortion think like that!?
btw - the 'argument' against, that one deals 'responsibly' with their actions and choices......errrrr, abortion IS dealing responsibly with their actions. perhaps not in a way you personally approve, but they ARE, none the less. btw - you are also assuming that many abortions are the results of unprotected sex.....perhaps BC failure comes into play as well. i know a few people who have gotten preganant while utilizing BC. just sayin'. nothing about pregnancy, nor the choices after the fact, is *simple.*
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Maybe not in those abrasive terms, but essentially... yes.
Abortion is terminating responsibility. The "problem" is the preganancy, and if that's not the problem,... it's the "child" and how much he/she will cost ect. It's terminating responsibility. Not accepting it.
You're point about there being cases of protected sex and pregancies doesn't disrupt my point whatsoever. We all know that protection is protection.... it's not 100% reliable. Therefore, once you engage in sex (protected or unprotected), IMHO you should take responsibility for any possible result of your actions.
they were not tears of joy. it was genuine grief. I was stupid enough to ask. after looking at me like I was an idiot... she shared. yet she also added that had she been pregnant, she would have definately gone through with the abortion.
Look at the facts. This is simply not true.
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
I know that you can get pregnant if you have protected sex too (although chances are smaller). That doesn't disrupt one aspect of my point on responsibility.
I don't know if this is a fair questions, but I will ask anyway.. you have said that the baby can not speak for itself.... but perhaps the baby would opt not to be born - all things considered
I wonder who we should assign the responsibility of making that decision for the voiceless.... The supreme court? Or its mother?
The chances that the baby would opt to be terminated (I would think) would be roughly the suicide rate. So, our law is killing a hell of a lot of babies that would like to be born with legalized abortion.
Who has the incentive to keep that voice silent: the mother who's asking to terminiate it (probably due to not wanting to deal with the pregancy or not wanting to deal with paying for the child) or an unbias court?
too broad to compare a clean comfortabe person to an adult that has spent his entire life being conditioned to adapt and cope and survive..
you go way to far in trying to guess what that unborn would choose
I actually think the exact same about you. Atleast I'm erring on the side where they can actually choose for themself.
did i say 'joy'.....? i said tears of 'release'....which certainly may encompass grief, and a whole host of other emotions. even if she didn't miscarry and went through and had an abortion, i bet she'd still have cried....of gried...release....relief...and who knows what else. i believe being faced with an unwanted pregnancy floods a woman with a plethora of 'emotion'....and they all manifest differently.
i personally believe that abortion is rarely seen with a cavalier eye, and is a thought-out, deliberated decision. just as ANY decision about life, your future, your body...should be.
also mention a good point....the female body spontaneously aborts....aka miscarriage, often. it is theorized that most women who are sexually active spontaneously abort at least 1x in their life completely without their knowledge, and oftentimes more with their knowledge.....depending on the regularity of their menstrual cycle, how aware they are in monitoring it, etc. it is normal and natural. there are numerous 'things' that quite naturally hamper or interfere entirely with fertilized eggs, embryos, fetuses.....it happens. so for one to choose to do the same, i personally do not have a problem with it.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
I have made no assumptions about the wishes of the unborn. I only believe that the one in a better position to make decisions for the child is it's mother not the government.
I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure you are assuming that a child would prefer to have a mother (who could potentially kill them via abortion) make the decision on their life rather than having a ban on that killing by the government. Or at the very least you are assuming that it's best that way for all parties.... which brings us back to protecting the rights of the unborn child, which brings us back to the government. We can go in circles all day.
But alas, I would seriously like to ask you, all of this argument aside, do you really think that it's worthwhile to discuss this issue with your gf's daughter? As someone who is very pro-life (or anti-abortion rights, whatever you want to call it) I think through this thread, we've provided a good example of why this discussion isn't going to get you or her anywhere. Rather than discussing the issue of abortion, why not discuss something else,... maybe something where your discussion could meet some sort of common ground?
So hypocritical or not, I think its up to the people not the government to decide if they should have an abortion.
"Its a secret to everybody."
My friend, to have or not have an abortion is a very serious decision that people, and too often, the woman alone, have to sometimes make. It is not an easy one. It is a heartbreaker and not done in any sort of cavalier, flip fashion. A lot of tears fall, before, during and after. One of the tragedies is that there is no after care for those women.
There are a number of reasons that a woman or couple may consider that influence their decision to terminate a pregnancy. It is not from stupidity.
Again, if there was a cohesive, objective and unbiased sex ed program in the states there might be less heartache. Less divisiveness.
The government should not be involved. And as those who do opt for this procedure are not criminal for doing so, you may try to find it inside yourself to manifest some understanding and compassion for what they may be trying to deal with.
"Its a secret to everybody."
I'm pro-choice, but that's the single dumbest argument for legal abortion I've ever heard of. Nothing personal.
"may be traced"
This use of "may be" refers to the knowledge we have allows us to trace the neural pathways. Not "maybe".
Someone with no EEG activity is dead. It is one criteria medical professionals use to declare someone dead. They can breath through a mechanical ventilator and their heart can be kept beating with medicine, but no brain activity means they can factually feel the same pain as an acorn.
I agree we should err on the side of not killing any persons. But we know enough about prenatal development to know there aren't cases of 12 week pregnacies with the characteristics of a 20 week pregnancy. There is a bell curve, but it doesn't extend as far as you seem to fear. A first trimester abortion leaves plenty of margin for error.
We are all prolife. It is reasonable to me to protect when it begins developing that which confers an individual unique personality -brain activity. Everything else we could theoretically transplant into another person and many we do, beating heart, lungs, liver, gut, skin, eyes etc. But a brain transplant would more accurately be termed a body transplant. The superstitious timing you are using, fertilization a shuffling of proteins, is an arbitrary point along the continuous process of life. Sperm and egg cells are no more dead then a blastocyst.