Abortion is wrong, yet I am pro choice

decides2dream

bootlegger10 wrote:

This moral relativism is a very dangerous viewpoint. To think that murder is okay if the right people are around to agree with it is absurd. Deceit should always be wrong. If you are talking about little white lies, then I understand your point. But abortion and murder should not be judged right or wrong based on society, but should be judged right or wrong for eternity, and people can choose to observe right behavior or wrong behavior. Just because I say something is okay, and you say it is not, does not make my view right for me and your view right for you.

If I walk down the street on my way to the grocery store and you shoot me in the head for no reason other than you want to, there should be no way that this a correct moral or ethical act. Just because a society believes it is, does not make it so. A society can be wrong.

i stand by my statement.

morals ARE relative, to the person and to the society, culture, country, the times they live in, etc. i believe abortion is fine, and i also believe lying is not always wrong. you may disagree......but it doesn';t change my opinion....and right now, 'society' agrees with me, the law. i cannot be jailed necessarily for lying - depends on the lie of course - nor will i be jailed for legal abortion. obviously, there are parameters for both.

know1 wrote:

If I don't get to have the sex, then it's completely NOT up to me to take care of unwanted kids. It is their CHOICE to have the kid and they should deal with it.

i think we both come up with these statements every times this debate comes up. you make the statement above, to which i say......abortion IS 'dealing with it.' perhaps not in a way you personally approve of, but it is still a method of dealing with it.

Heineken Helen

know1 wrote:

If I don't get to have the sex, then it's completely NOT up to me to take care of unwanted kids. It is their CHOICE to have the kid and they should deal with it.

yeh but they choose NOT to have the kid. If you're not having sex, you're unlikely to get anyone pregnant and have to deal with this... so do you really think you should get to decide for people who ARE having to deal with this?

Heineken Helen

I think the issue of abortion tends to cloud the much more important issue... which is all the unwanted kids that are out there and have very little chance in life cos people are too busy debating abortion to give a fuck about them :mad:

saveuplife

decides2dream wrote:

there are parameters for both.

Basically, your parameters are ridiculously confusing.... that's the problem.

It's OK to lie under these situations.

It's OK to have an abortion under these situations.

It's OK to murder under these situations.


All of the above: The grey area is vast and engulfing. With certain moral criterion you actually need to step out of the vast grey hole of "it depends" and enter into some form of black and white... or else you'll have people murdering people with absolutely no repercussions.

decides2dream

saveuplife wrote:

Basically, your parameters are ridiculously confusing.... that's the problem.

It's OK to lie under these situations.

It's OK to have an abortion under these situations.

It's OK to murder under these situations.


All of the above: The grey area is vast and engulfing. With certain moral criterion you actually need to step out of the vast grey hole of "it depends" and enter into some form of black and white... or else you'll have people murdering people with absolutely no repercussions.

how do you know?



you have NO idea what 'my parameters' are, at all...i haven't stated them.
all i DID state is the LAW does *agree*....in that abortion IS legal within certain circumstances, that lying in and of itself is not illegal either. the grey area IS vast...and it should be. for every time someone has an idea of a subject being entirely 'black and white'.......there always seems to be exceptions. this is mostly due to the fact that life is not black and white, but many shades of grey. 'morals' are our own ways of dealing with the greys, putting order and standards. life is what it is....and morals and standards have changed vastly and will continue to morph with the times. that IS living.

Heineken Helen

saveuplife wrote:

Basically, your parameters are ridiculously confusing.... that's the problem.

It's OK to lie under these situations.

It's OK to have an abortion under these situations.

It's OK to murder under these situations.


All of the above: The grey area is vast and engulfing. With certain moral criterion you actually need to step out of the vast grey hole of "it depends" and enter into some form of black and white... or else you'll have people murdering people with absolutely no repercussions.

sometimes lying is necessary... sometimes murder is necessary (it's called self defence)

saveuplife

Heineken Helen wrote:

sometimes lying is necessary... sometimes murder is necessary (it's called self defence)

Your use of the word necessary is subjective IMHO.

saveuplife

decides2dream wrote:

how do you know?



you have NO idea what 'my parameters' are, at all...i haven't stated them.
all i DID state is the LAW does *agree*....in that abortion IS legal within certain circumstances, that lying in and of itself is not illegal either. the grey area IS vast...and it should be. for every time someone has an idea of a subject being entirely 'black and white'.......there always seems to be exceptions. this is mostly due to the fact that life is not black and white, but many shades of grey. 'morals' are our own ways of dealing with the greys, putting order and standards. life is what it is....and morals and standards have changed vastly and will continue to morph with the times. that IS living.

Can you say lying is wrong? How about murder? How about the holocaust?

Heineken Helen

saveuplife wrote:

Your use of the word necessary is subjective IMHO.

How? There are certain situations that call for lying. There are some situations that call for killing somebody. This is fact but it's also subjective I guess. If you don't kill somebody who's trying to kill you, you die! It's self preservation and natural. Lying can be used for the same reason.

decides2dream

saveuplife wrote:

Can you say lying is wrong? How about murder? How about the holocaust?

why?
what does it have to do with the topic?


i think it's all well and good for people to believe abortion is wrong, tis certainly their right and perogative. i take zero issue with it. i actually applaud people like the OP in stating that for him abortion is wrong, but he is still pro-choice. i agree with that line of thinking. i don't agree when others try to push their own personal morality on others though. and sure, i disagreed with the statement that 'abortion is wrong' b/c it may be in his mind, but it doesn't make it so. i personally do not see it as 'wrong' at all. i do not seeing lying as necessarily always being 'wrong'. i personally think murder is wrong, but then someone may argue with me that abortion is murder,and i don't think it is - and other circumstances as well....so it all goes by your definition there. i think the holocaust was wrong....but i fail to see what any of this 'proves'...but i am sure it is all meant to be loaded questions to prove some point of yours.




i really wish outofbreath/dan would post this survey/quiz he once did.....it just about encompasses all the ideas of 'moral relativism' and the social constrcuts, etc...it was utterly fascinating.

Gonzo1977

1) You do NOT have the right to tell anyone what to do with their body.

2) If a Woman chooses to have an abortion...IT'S HER CHOICE...Not yours.

3) There are extreme cases and circumstances to which you may neither understand or relate to. You're not expected to understand or relate to these circumstances....because.....

4) IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!!

End of Discussion.

saveuplife

Heineken Helen wrote:

How? There are certain situations that call for lying. There are some situations that call for killing somebody. This is fact but it's also subjective I guess. If you don't kill somebody who's trying to kill you, you die! It's self preservation and natural. Lying can be used for the same reason.

It's subjective... that's how. Look up the definition.

saveuplife

decides2dream wrote:

why?
what does it have to do with the topic?


i think it's all well and good for people to believe abortion is wrong, tis certainly their right and perogative. i take zero issue with it. i actually applaud people like the OP in stating that for him abortion is wrong, but he is still pro-choice. i agree with that line of thinking. i don't agree when others try to push their own personal morality on others though. and sure, i disagreed with the statement that 'abortion is wrong' b/c it may be in his mind, but it doesn't make it so. i personally do not see it as 'wrong' at all. i do not seeing lying as necessarily always being 'wrong'. i personally think murder is wrong, but then someone may argue with me that abortion is murder,and i don't think it is - and other circumstances as well....so it all goes by your definition there. i think the holocaust was wrong....but i fail to see what any of this 'proves'...but i am sure it is all meant to be loaded questions to prove some point of yours.




i really wish outofbreath/dan would post this survey/quiz he once did.....it just about encompasses all the ideas of 'moral relativism' and the social constrcuts, etc...it was utterly fascinating.

If you believe the holocaust was wrong, you are showing that there is a need for black and white "right or wrong" statements. That was the point.

decides2dream

saveuplife wrote:

It's subjective... that's how. Look up the definition.

it IS subjective.
just like saying lying or aobrtion is unnecessary or wrong is also subjective. lots of things ARE subjective. and what today might be considered 'wrong'....tomorrow might be deemed 'right'....things change, people change, new information comes to light, etc.

decides2dream

saveuplife wrote:

If you believe the holocaust was wrong, you are showing that there is a need for black and white "right or wrong" statements. That was the point.

absolutely. on occasion. but on many other occasions i believe in the shades of grey and personal choice. that's the point. i don't think i said 'black and white' is always wrong....just that not all things can or should be judged with a 'black and white' mentality. life is grey. and just b/c i may believe something is wrong, doesn't even make it so. morals, right/wrong...all social constructs.

El_Kabong

Abuskedti wrote:

I wonder, do you think there should be a law against Lying? Lying is wrong, and has led to unthinkable evil. It has caused pain suffering and death.

Do you want a law against Lying?

Perhaps there are other solutions to the problem of abortions? Maybe a technological solution - where we can extract the unborn from unwilling mothers... perhaps a more perfect pill... perhaps better education... perhaps a willingness to care for unwanted children

you know like the teenagers left at the hospital in Nebraska. our society loves condemning the parents of these children, but want no part of helping them.

A law against abortion is a poor excuse for a solution to what is a number of very serious problems.

slander and defamation are laws

saveuplife

decides2dream wrote:

absolutely. on occasion. but on many other occasions i believe in the shades of grey and personal choice. that's the point. i don't think i said 'black and white' is always wrong....just that not all things can or should be judged with a 'black and white' mentality. life is grey. and just b/c i may believe something is wrong, doesn't even make it so. morals, right/wrong...all social constructs.

People need rights and wrongs in order to function as a society. That's my point. Whether you agree with the concept or not, morals are typically black and white by definition.

Just because I think lying is always wrong... doesn't mean I don't do it. I skrew up sometimes, I'm human. I simply think that life for everyone is more orderly and better if no one lies, or lies are limited and frowned upon. If we, as a society, did not react negatively to lies, I think our society would be a hell of a lot worse. That's why lying is wrong.... because it hurts people.

unifiedscene

bootlegger10 wrote:

This moral relativism is a very dangerous viewpoint. To think that murder is okay if the right people are around to agree with it is absurd. Deceit should always be wrong. If you are talking about little white lies, then I understand your point. But abortion and murder should not be judged right or wrong based on society, but should be judged right or wrong for eternity, and people can choose to observe right behavior or wrong behavior. Just because I say something is okay, and you say it is not, does not make my view right for me and your view right for you.

If I walk down the street on my way to the grocery store and you shoot me in the head for no reason other than you want to, there should be no way that this a correct moral or ethical act. Just because a society believes it is, does not make it so. A society can be wrong.

Do you think killing someone in a war is acceptable?

unifiedscene

Abuskedti wrote:

I would agree with you. I was sort of arguing even with these premises because they are those held by the so called pro-life side. I am throwing these things out because my girlfriend's daughter-in-law is passionately pro-life and I will meet her soon, and we will have a conversation. I want to be as understanding as possible.. though I understand she considers pro-choce to be pro-abortion and pro-baby-killing

Maybe you just shouldn't start an abortion debate. Is there some reason why you HAVE to talk about abortion when first meeting your gf's daughter in law? That's kinda nutty man.

saveuplife

unifiedscene wrote:

Maybe you just shouldn't start an abortion debate. Is there some reason why you HAVE to talk about abortion when first meeting your gf's daughter in law? That's kinda nutty man.

Excellent point.