You cannot claim a "god-given" right so something that involves someone else's labor, no. Do you have no "god-given" right to dunkin donuts, crack or heroin, unless of course you can make them yourself. In that case, yes, you do have a right to those things.
So if we take your argument further.. do I really have the right to donuts if I make them myself? After all, I am using flour (the result of someone else's labour), using sugar (also result of someone else's labour), etc. Can these people claim my right to the donut? Unless of course I grow and process my own cane, wheat, etc. But then I would assume I outright own the land it was grown on.. then.. what about materials used?
See.. this argument could go very far and be very farfetched....
I was trying to find answers.
This person didn't exist in a vacuum. He was effected by his environment, as we all are. As the 2 lads at Columbine were, and as every other perpetrator of a school or college massacre in the U.S has been.
In that case this kind of thing is extrodinarily rare then. Absolutely amazing this dosen't happen every single day.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
Given the statistics, there is a whole lot of responsible gun ownership going on.
It's the 5-10% in society that cause 100% of the problems. Obviously background checks are wise but not foolproof.
If guns are to be abolished it has to be a globally unified approach. Even then, underground manufacturing will be in high demand. Pretty much identical to the war on drugs at the moment.
All you can do is make people responsible for their actions, and hope they behave responsibly. You can't really prevent much of anything.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I was trying to find answers.
This person didn't exist in a vacuum. He was effected by his environment, as we all are. As the 2 lads at Columbine were, and as every other perpetrator of a school or college massacre in the U.S has been.
I don't believe you were trying to find answers. You simply jumped in with an accusation of racism. Even if there were racism, why did he flip his lid? Plenty of people of all races, genders, sexual orientation, etc... experience discrimination at some level and very few of them resort to mass murder.
Of course he didn't live in a vacuum. Of course society has an influence. But it has an influence everywhere on everyone. That is a given. That's like suggesting oxygen was responsible for his pulling the trigger.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I'm not considering a suicide a relevant statistic. A suicide is not a crime.
well then why is attempted suicide a crime
In 2002, there were 30,242 gun-related deaths - 83 people each day;
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
See you just contradict yourself there. Would it not bother you if I have nukes... and I'm not a particularly stable person! You literally don't know who's living nextdoor to you... as, unfortunately, many parents of small kids have found out. So if that person has access to a gun it gives them a much better chance of doing wider damange than otherwise... how hard is that to understand?
It isn't hard to understand. What is hard to understand, however, is why you think someone having a "much better change of doing wider damage than otherwise" somehow gives you an arbitrary right to control people's behavior.
Sorry, fear-mongering really isn't going to accomplish much with me. If you want to be afraid of people with guns, you have every right to do so.
Hmm... so what uses do guns have that AREN'T violent? Unless it's an antique you put on the wall to look at. Guns are destructive and their sole use is destruction.
Target shooting is not violent. Self-defense, depending on your philosophical view, is not violent.
Sure, guns are primarily destructive. So are bull-dozers. So is dynamite. What's your point? Just because something is destructive doesn't make it wrong.
You're trying to pull this back to "guns have no justifiable purpose", which seems pretty ridiculous when you're proposing rules and regulations that, of course, would require guns to enforce.
If you are tempted to use a gun, it's easier to give into temptation when there's one sitting in front of you :rolleyes: Ah, I'm not getting into riddles with you again
These aren't riddles. These are basic concepts. Just because "it's easier to give into temptation" again does not give you the right to bar access to guns. It's a ludicrous argument. You might as well start chopping people's trigger fingers off.
Sorry, I meant "crime" in the more philosophical sense than the legal one. Yes, suicide is technically against the law.
In 2002, there were 30,242 gun-related deaths - 83 people each day;
Ok. There were also 800,000-2,500,000 gun-related instances of self-defense - 2,191 people each day. How many car-related deaths were there? How many stabbings?
These statistics are simply that: statistics. You cannot use a statistic to dissolve people's rights.
So if we take your argument further.. do I really have the right to donuts if I make them myself? After all, I am using flour (the result of someone else's labour), using sugar (also result of someone else's labour), etc. Can these people claim my right to the donut?
If you stole that sugar or stole that flour, yes. If you freely exchanged for it, however, no.
Unless of course I grow and process my own cane, wheat, etc. But then I would assume I outright own the land it was grown on.. then.. what about materials used?
What about them? How did you acquire those things?
See.. this argument could go very far and be very farfetched....
In that case this kind of thing is extrodinarily rare then. Absolutely amazing this dosen't happen every single day.
If you read my earlier posts you'll see what I've been driving at here. I could be wrong of course, but no-one here has yet given me any reason to believe I am. I've been talking about the peculiar nature of the overly clique ridden, and pressure ridden school system in the U.S which I've seen portrayed in film and literature. I wasn't raised in the U.S so I don't have first hand knowledge of it. I was asking what it's like. What effect does the regimented, tiered cliquey system have on people there? It seems to be a tad ugly and exaggerated. Am I wrong about this?
Obviously somethings not quite right about it, right?
Excuse me for asking questions! :rolleyes:
Yes, rather than blame the perpetrator like I tend to do, it makes much more sense to deflect that and blame American society as you tend to do. Moronic indeed.
Not blaming American society but trying to understand how and why this happens (besides guns being readily available for these people). Society exerts undue pressure on people, some deal with it, some don't. Some will commit suicide as a way of dealing with it, some will flip completely and shoot everyone in sight.... Maybe better education, welfare, or whatever can help the young people what are at lost or astray to find their place in society. Maybe you should read baraka's post again and think about it...
You know, I got to thinking while in the shower that Byrnzie may be on to something. I can't remember which gun thread he expressed his ideas, but it concerns the underlying problem. Earlier, I posted some stats on Switzerland. Their citizens are armed, like the US, but somehow they don't have these mass shooting like we have in the US. Perhaps removing all guns will only be a temporary band-aide to a bigger underlying problem (although the ease to obtain a gun is quite unnerving). We need to get to the heart of the matter, as to why children and young adults resort to mass shootings.
I don't believe you were trying to find answers. You simply jumped in with an accusation of racism. Even if there were racism, why did he flip his lid? Plenty of people of all races, genders, sexual orientation, etc... experience discrimination at some level and very few of them resort to mass murder.
Of course he didn't live in a vacuum. Of course society has an influence. But it has an influence everywhere on everyone. That is a given. That's like suggesting oxygen was responsible for his pulling the trigger.
I simply jumped in with an accusation of racism did I? If you read back through this thread you'll see that that was my 10th post, or thereabouts, on here. Again, another meaningless comment!
Of course society has an influence. And different societies influence people differently. Are you saying that the environment at a U.S high school or college is the same environment the world over?
Ok. There were also 800,000-2,500,000 gun-related instances of self-defense -
hypothetical and subjective... we can count actual bodies but we can't count defensive gun uses saving lives as Minority Report is just a film...
there would be less of a need for this self-defence argument if you didnt have millions of peoples carrying guns around anyway...
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
The killer has been identified as a 23 year old South Korean. I wonder what, if any, level of abuse he was subjected to at college during these times of animosity towards anyone of middle Eastern, or Asian appearance?
why assume that damage was done within american society? was he raised here? is he a resident alien, student or born & bred inthe usa? what was his experience in so. korea?
"I don't want to hear any splatty tongues!"
J.M., Jr. High Band Teacher
why assume that damage was done within american society? was he raised here? is he a resident alien, student or born & bred in the usa? what was his experience in so. korea?
This incident isn't unusual, or rare, in the States is it. If it was then I or anyone else would be forgiven for looking for answers elsewhere.
That's foolish. Violent crimes preceded guns, not the other way around.
they didnt have the same level of carnage and fear
there are no mass-murder incidents that i know or have heard of prior to the invention of the gun
ninjas dont count as it was their job... i'm talking a normal peasant or something
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
anyone that thinks more guns are the answer to this problem is a fucking idiot. period, end of discussion.
"More guns" isn't an issue I've seen anyone bring up here. There are probably enough firearms in the world for each individual in the world to have quite an arsenal for themselves.
It isn't hard to understand. What is hard to understand, however, is why you think someone having a "much better change of doing wider damage than otherwise" somehow gives you an arbitrary right to control people's behavior.
Sorry, fear-mongering really isn't going to accomplish much with me. If you want to be afraid of people with guns, you have every right to do so.
Well of course we should all try and limit damage caused by a psychotic episode... your attitude is simply weird to be honest. So really... you would have no problem if I came on here saying I bought nukes from GWB (since that's where everyone else gets them :rolleyes: ) and I'm protesting my rights to keep them... ya know just to put them on the mantlepiece and polish them every now and then?
Who's fear mongering? I'm not... just your blasé attitude towards these deaths and what can be done to prevent more is just astounding.
Target shooting is not violent. Self-defense, depending on your philosophical view, is not violent.
Sure, guns are primarily destructive. So are bull-dozers. So is dynamite. What's your point? Just because something is destructive doesn't make it wrong.
You're trying to pull this back to "guns have no justifiable purpose", which seems pretty ridiculous when you're proposing rules and regulations that, of course, would require guns to enforce.
I agree with your point about target shooting... its a whole lotta fun!W But why not do it in a safe controlled environment. What's wrong with a gun club or something? Or do you not want somebody to see you? Why not?
You're really anti using guns to enforce anything but yet you're perfectly happy with everyone HAVING guns and you support them in choosing to force OTHERS to do something.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
If you read my earlier posts you'll see what I've been driving at here. I could be wrong of course, but no-one here has yet given me any reason to believe I am. I've been talking about the peculiar nature of the overly clique ridden, and pressure ridden school system in the U.S which I've seen portrayed in film and literature. I wasn't raised in the U.S so I don't have first hand knowledge of it. I was asking what it's like. What effect does the regimented, tiered cliquey system have on people there? It seems to be a tad ugly and exaggerated. Am I wrong about this?
Obviously somethings not quite right about it, right?
Excuse me for asking questions! :rolleyes:
yeah, I guess I was kind of agreeing with you.
Everything here is exaggerated, especially our media. I was just saying, wow with the number of guns, drugs, mental illness, this or that marital or relationship issue, pressure, stress, ridicule, general freak outs....etc... it's pretty amazing these horrific acts aren't more common.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
This incident isn't unusual, or rare, in the States is it. If it was then I or anyone else would be forgiven for looking for answers elsewhere.
my only point is if you are going to pin blame for illness/insanity on a society, lets look at the whole picture. he might be more apple-pie american than I am... I have a hard time assigning blame to a culture (ANY culture).
I see the basis on a lower level - the family/personal level.
"I don't want to hear any splatty tongues!"
J.M., Jr. High Band Teacher
"More guns" isn't an issue I've seen anyone bring up here. There are probably enough firearms in the world for each individual in the world to have quite an arsenal for themselves.
perhaps you should re-read the original post.
he is saying that this could have been avoided if students were allowed to carry guns. he contends that carrying firearms reduces the threat. and that someone could have taken him out before it got worse. that has always been mr 69chargers stance, and he is using this this tragedy, and defeated bill, as his example.
Certainly "hypothetical and subjective", but are you honestly going to say that defensive uses of firearms are outnumbered by aggressive uses?
What is this 'defensive' use of firearms against (again, something that one wonders how they can be counted)? Crimes involving other firearms? Waving a gun at the neighbour because he called you a prick and you found that 'threatening'? Or maybe the neighbour's dog because he took a dump on your lawn - just shot in the air to scare it away? I understand that these 'defensive' uses could be for something more serious, but who says a gun was necessary? Especially the figures quoted!
he is saying that this could have been avoided if students were allowed to carry guns. he contends that carrying firearms reduces the threat. and that someone could have taken him out before it got worse. that has always been mr 69chargers stance, and he is using this this tragedy, and defeated bill, as his example.
he is saying that this could have been avoided if students were allowed to carry guns. he contends that carrying firearms reduces the threat. and that someone could have taken him out before it got worse. that has always been mr 69chargers stance, and he is using this this tragedy, and defeated bill, as his example.
Yes, and others have said that in an armed society, criminals are less likely to produce their guns
Lol, on that thought... off home I go laughing hysterically
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
they didnt have the same level of carnage and fear
You must be kidding. Carnage and fear long predate guns, and have existed on much higher levels than they do in modern societies with guns.
there are no mass-murder incidents that i know or have heard of prior to the invention of the gun
Again, you must be joking. Ninjas aside, ancient history is full of mass-murders. From the Peloponnesian War to the Han Dynasty, mass-murder is nothing new.
Comments
See.. this argument could go very far and be very farfetched....
In that case this kind of thing is extrodinarily rare then. Absolutely amazing this dosen't happen every single day.
It's the 5-10% in society that cause 100% of the problems. Obviously background checks are wise but not foolproof.
If guns are to be abolished it has to be a globally unified approach. Even then, underground manufacturing will be in high demand. Pretty much identical to the war on drugs at the moment.
All you can do is make people responsible for their actions, and hope they behave responsibly. You can't really prevent much of anything.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I don't believe you were trying to find answers. You simply jumped in with an accusation of racism. Even if there were racism, why did he flip his lid? Plenty of people of all races, genders, sexual orientation, etc... experience discrimination at some level and very few of them resort to mass murder.
Of course he didn't live in a vacuum. Of course society has an influence. But it has an influence everywhere on everyone. That is a given. That's like suggesting oxygen was responsible for his pulling the trigger.
well then why is attempted suicide a crime
In 2002, there were 30,242 gun-related deaths - 83 people each day;
It isn't hard to understand. What is hard to understand, however, is why you think someone having a "much better change of doing wider damage than otherwise" somehow gives you an arbitrary right to control people's behavior.
Sorry, fear-mongering really isn't going to accomplish much with me. If you want to be afraid of people with guns, you have every right to do so.
Target shooting is not violent. Self-defense, depending on your philosophical view, is not violent.
Sure, guns are primarily destructive. So are bull-dozers. So is dynamite. What's your point? Just because something is destructive doesn't make it wrong.
You're trying to pull this back to "guns have no justifiable purpose", which seems pretty ridiculous when you're proposing rules and regulations that, of course, would require guns to enforce.
These aren't riddles. These are basic concepts. Just because "it's easier to give into temptation" again does not give you the right to bar access to guns. It's a ludicrous argument. You might as well start chopping people's trigger fingers off.
Sorry, I meant "crime" in the more philosophical sense than the legal one. Yes, suicide is technically against the law.
Ok. There were also 800,000-2,500,000 gun-related instances of self-defense - 2,191 people each day. How many car-related deaths were there? How many stabbings?
These statistics are simply that: statistics. You cannot use a statistic to dissolve people's rights.
If you stole that sugar or stole that flour, yes. If you freely exchanged for it, however, no.
What about them? How did you acquire those things?
How so? Seems simple to me.
If you read my earlier posts you'll see what I've been driving at here. I could be wrong of course, but no-one here has yet given me any reason to believe I am. I've been talking about the peculiar nature of the overly clique ridden, and pressure ridden school system in the U.S which I've seen portrayed in film and literature. I wasn't raised in the U.S so I don't have first hand knowledge of it. I was asking what it's like. What effect does the regimented, tiered cliquey system have on people there? It seems to be a tad ugly and exaggerated. Am I wrong about this?
Obviously somethings not quite right about it, right?
Excuse me for asking questions! :rolleyes:
huh? that's a pretty broad range...
Not blaming American society but trying to understand how and why this happens (besides guns being readily available for these people). Society exerts undue pressure on people, some deal with it, some don't. Some will commit suicide as a way of dealing with it, some will flip completely and shoot everyone in sight.... Maybe better education, welfare, or whatever can help the young people what are at lost or astray to find their place in society. Maybe you should read baraka's post again and think about it...
I simply jumped in with an accusation of racism did I? If you read back through this thread you'll see that that was my 10th post, or thereabouts, on here. Again, another meaningless comment!
Of course society has an influence. And different societies influence people differently. Are you saying that the environment at a U.S high school or college is the same environment the world over?
hypothetical and subjective... we can count actual bodies but we can't count defensive gun uses saving lives as Minority Report is just a film...
there would be less of a need for this self-defence argument if you didnt have millions of peoples carrying guns around anyway...
why assume that damage was done within american society? was he raised here? is he a resident alien, student or born & bred inthe usa? what was his experience in so. korea?
J.M., Jr. High Band Teacher
I raise my Freak Flag High!!
This incident isn't unusual, or rare, in the States is it. If it was then I or anyone else would be forgiven for looking for answers elsewhere.
Certainly "hypothetical and subjective", but are you honestly going to say that defensive uses of firearms are outnumbered by aggressive uses?
That's foolish. Violent crimes preceded guns, not the other way around.
It comes from the same study. Forget the guy's name, Krick or something like that. 800,000 is the lower bound while 2,500,000 is the upper bound.
they didnt have the same level of carnage and fear
there are no mass-murder incidents that i know or have heard of prior to the invention of the gun
ninjas dont count as it was their job... i'm talking a normal peasant or something
"More guns" isn't an issue I've seen anyone bring up here. There are probably enough firearms in the world for each individual in the world to have quite an arsenal for themselves.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Well of course we should all try and limit damage caused by a psychotic episode... your attitude is simply weird to be honest. So really... you would have no problem if I came on here saying I bought nukes from GWB (since that's where everyone else gets them :rolleyes: ) and I'm protesting my rights to keep them... ya know just to put them on the mantlepiece and polish them every now and then?
Who's fear mongering? I'm not... just your blasé attitude towards these deaths and what can be done to prevent more is just astounding.
I agree with your point about target shooting... its a whole lotta fun!W But why not do it in a safe controlled environment. What's wrong with a gun club or something? Or do you not want somebody to see you? Why not?
You're really anti using guns to enforce anything but yet you're perfectly happy with everyone HAVING guns and you support them in choosing to force OTHERS to do something.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I would think the carnage and fear fighting the way they fought with swords and hammers, et al in old Scotland to be a hell of a lot more scary.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
yeah, I guess I was kind of agreeing with you.
Everything here is exaggerated, especially our media. I was just saying, wow with the number of guns, drugs, mental illness, this or that marital or relationship issue, pressure, stress, ridicule, general freak outs....etc... it's pretty amazing these horrific acts aren't more common.
my only point is if you are going to pin blame for illness/insanity on a society, lets look at the whole picture. he might be more apple-pie american than I am... I have a hard time assigning blame to a culture (ANY culture).
I see the basis on a lower level - the family/personal level.
J.M., Jr. High Band Teacher
I raise my Freak Flag High!!
perhaps you should re-read the original post.
he is saying that this could have been avoided if students were allowed to carry guns. he contends that carrying firearms reduces the threat. and that someone could have taken him out before it got worse. that has always been mr 69chargers stance, and he is using this this tragedy, and defeated bill, as his example.
69Charger is laughable.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Lol, on that thought... off home I go laughing hysterically
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Damn.. when they lifted their kilts and taunted the ennemi.. that was scary! No need for guns then.. just balls!!!!!!
You must be kidding. Carnage and fear long predate guns, and have existed on much higher levels than they do in modern societies with guns.
Again, you must be joking. Ninjas aside, ancient history is full of mass-murders. From the Peloponnesian War to the Han Dynasty, mass-murder is nothing new.