Virginia Tech : Hindsight 20/20

69charger

Cosmo wrote:

...
I take it, this guy hasn't heard of the 'Girls Gone Wild' videos. Yeah... I want a bimbo that'll take off her clothes in public or screw 4 guys for a damn t-shirt to be carrying around a loaded 9mm in the campus cafeteria.

That would be SOOOOOO HOT!

blackredyellow

jeffbr wrote:

The stats compare states pre and post CC. So there goes that argument.

I've tried to stay away from these threads all day. I've done this debate too many times on this board. But it is clear cut - state crimes rates decrease after CC laws are passed.

I don't have a problem with concealed carry laws for the most part, but I strongly disagree with the point of this thread that CC should be allowed on a college campus. I just think that it's a recipe for disaster.

69charger

blackredyellow wrote:

I don't have a problem with concealed carry laws for the most part, but I strongly disagree with the point of this thread that CC should be allowed on a college campus. I just think that it's a recipe for disaster.

Why? What if it were extended to properly trained faculty only? Wouldn't that be better than being totally defenseless?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Kid pulls out gun in class pretends to shoot everyone while his classmates laugh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i0Gww3HSXY

jeffbr

blackredyellow wrote:

I don't have a problem with concealed carry laws for the most part, but I strongly disagree with the point of this thread that CC should be allowed on a college campus. I just think that it's a recipe for disaster.

Yeah, I'm not going to argue in favor of that. I was simply correcting a possible misconception about the stats.

keeponrockin

69charger wrote:

Why? What if it were extended to properly trained faculty only? Wouldn't that be better than being totally defenseless?

Having armed security wouldn't be a bad idea, but I don't like the CC idea.

soulsinging

jeffbr wrote:

The stats compare states pre and post CC. So there goes that argument.

I've tried to stay away from these threads all day. I've done this debate too many times on this board. But it is clear cut - state crimes rates decrease after CC laws are passed.

the states enacting concealed carry do not have the same problems inner cities do. you're talking mostly about rural areas where most gun owners ARE responsible. but this is america. it's a huge and diverse nation. you cannot apply a one size fits all designation to all of it when it comes to something like guns. it might be fine for ohio, but i cannot see it being a good thing for chicago or nyc. and i certainly don't think it's a good idea to have a bunch of hormonal, horny, liquored up college kids packing heat on campus. when the fuck did this ever become anyone's idea of wise policy?

bookmuse

cincybearcat wrote:

I have never understood this argument either.

Ditto here. Look at all the irrational things that occur because people are so stressed out-road rage, bar fights, spousal and child abuse, shit just arguements in the grocery lines or while Christmas shopping at wal Mart on the day after Thanksgiving, etc...not to mention all the depression, substance abuse and other mental heath issues and pain many people suffer-there are a lot of people out there a inch from going over the edge.


Let's just have everyone have a gun to make it a safer society :rolleyes:

And yes, criminals will find a way to get guns no matter what but easier access to guns can lead to this tragedy and make it easier for the the 51 year old Wisconsin man in the midst of a divorce kill his two kids and himself.

Milhouse VanHouten

69charger wrote:

When everyone is packing it is a much safer place to be. Criminals have no idea who is carrying and are less likely to comit violent crime.

Yeah, just like how the death penalty deters people from committing violent crimes...

Another consideration: Let's say that there were a handful of students with guns in a room when the police kicked down the door. Things happen fast, everyone's shitting themselves with fear and sweating adrenaline, no one knows exactly what's going on, maybe the cops don't have a physical description on the suspect... yeah, that's a situation where you want everyone in the room to have semiautomatic handguns.

I'll admit that I'm pretty idelogically biased, but for the life of me, I have no idea how anyone could believe that more people with guns would have made this tragic situation end any better.

dunkman

69charger wrote:

When everyone is packing it is a much safer place to be. Criminals have no idea who is carrying and are less likely to comit violent crime.

thats not true.. if you knew anything about the person in your sig and his organisation then you'd realise that.

dunkman

kids go to school to learn... and they shouldnt be so scared that they have to pack weapons... you know how much bullying goes on at schools... imagine if the bullied person, instead of telling someone or dealing with it... just decides to use their weapon






April 2007: A gunman shoots dead at least 20 people at the campus of Virginia Tech university in Virginia.


October 2006: A 32-year-old gunman shoots dead at least five girls at an Amish school in Pennsylvania, before killing himself

September 2006: Gunman in Colorado shoots and fatally wounds a teenage schoolgirl, then kills himself; two days later a teenager kills the headteacher of a school in Cazenovia, Wisconsin

November 2005: Student in Tennessee shoots dead an assistant principal and wounds two other administrators

March 2005: Minnesota schoolboy kills nine, then shoots himself

May 2004: Four people injured in shooting at a school in Maryland

April 2003: Teenager shoots dead head-teacher at a Pennsylvania school, then kills himself

March 2001: Pupil opens fire at a school in California, killing two students

February 2000: Six-year-old girl shot dead by classmate in Michigan

November 1999: Thirteen-year-old girl shot dead by a classmate in New Mexico

May 1999: Student injures six pupils in shoot-out in Georgia

April 1999: Two teenagers shoot dead 12 students and a teacher before killing themselves at Columbine School in Colorado

June 1998: Two adults hurt in shooting by teenage student at high school in Virginia

May 1998: Fifteen-year-old boy shoots himself in the head after taking a girl hostage

May 1998: Fifteen-year-old shoots dead two students in school cafeteria in Oregon

April 1998: Fourteen-year-old shoots dead a teacher and wounds two students in Pennsylvania

March 1998: Two boys, 11 and 13, kill four girls and a teacher in Arkansas

December 1997: Fourteen-year-old boy kills three students in Kentucky

October 1997: Sixteen-year-old boy stabs mother, then shoots dead two students at school in Mississippi, injuring several others

pushmepullme

Hey Dunk, I wouldn't bother getting involved, we both know that in a few more months there'll be another shooting in another couple of weeks and more americans will be on here crying and stuff. The same old cycle!!

dunkman

pushmepullme wrote:

Hey Dunk, I wouldn't bother getting involved, we both know that in a few more months there'll be another shooting in another couple of weeks and more americans will be on here crying and stuff. The same old cycle!!

you know what... you're right!!!

Heineken Helen

69charger wrote:

Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

The legislation allowed for exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.

:eek: Is this SERIOUSLY for real??? :( :( Wow! No wonder shit like this happens :(

Heineken Helen

69charger wrote:

Why? What if it were extended to properly trained faculty only? Wouldn't that be better than being totally defenseless?

Isn't that a whole DIFFERENT argument? If the fucking students are allowed carry guns around on them, of COURSE there should be properly trained armed faculty to deal with that. However I'm completely against students being allowed carry guns to school/college... and wow, even just having to say that just seems so fucking sad :(

For fuck sake you're not even allowed a phone in most schools... why the fuck would you bring a gun with you?

Byrnzie

69charger wrote:

When everyone is packing it is a much safer place to be. Criminals have no idea who is carrying and are less likely to comit violent crime.

Can you provide some evidence to support this statement? No? Oh, o.k. Thanks for the hot air.

chopitdown

Byrnzie wrote:

Can you provide some evidence to support this statement? No. Oh, o.k. Thanks for the hot air.

As with most issues there are 2 sides...here's something that shows different conclusions on this issue...I haven't read them and don't have the time to, but really...if you were interested in some of this you can google it to find some information...like below there are articles in the stanford law review and you can google those articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry#Research_into_the_effects_of_concealed_carry_laws_on_crime
There have been many studies published in academic journals regarding the effects of various concealed carry laws on crime rate. Academics have also taken the debate outside of journals, writing books, blogs, and having debates on the subject.

The effect of various concealed carry laws are the subject of past and present research. In his book, More Guns, Less Crime, controversial pro-gun scholar John Lott's analysis of crime report data has shown some statistically significant effects of concealed carry laws. One major conclusion was that locations which enacted more permissive concealed carry laws had a decrease in violent crime, but an increase in property crime.

Don Kates summarizes the consensus reached by criminological research into gun control thus: "Unfortunately, an almost perfect inverse correlation exists between those who are affected by gun laws, particularly bans, and those whom enforcement should affect. Those easiest to disarm are the responsible and law abiding citizens whose guns represent no meaningful social problem. Irresponsible and criminal owners, whose gun possession creates or exacerbates so many social ills, are the ones most difficult to disarm."[7]

Regardless of the interpretation of statistics, the trend in the United States has been towards greater permissiveness of concealed carry. In Florida, which first introduced "shall-issue" concealed carry laws, crimes committed against residents dropped markedly upon the general issuance of concealed-carry licenses,[1] which had the unintended consequence of putting tourists in Florida driving marked rental cars at risk from criminals (since tourists may be readily presumed unarmed.) Florida responded by enacting laws prohibiting the obvious marking of rental cars. In 1991, the Luby's massacre prompted Texas lawmakers to pass a concealed carry law.

[edit] Related literature

* 1977 John Lott and David Mustard, “Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns,” Journal of Legal Studies.
* 1998 Dan Black and Daniel Nagin, “Do Right-to-Carry Laws Deter Violent Crime?” Journal of Legal Studies.
* 1998 John Lott, “The Concealed-Handgun Debate.” Journal of Legal Studies.
* 2000 John Lott, More Guns, Less Crime (AEI).
* 2002 John Lott, More Guns, Less Crime, Second Edition (AEI).
* 2003 Ian Ayres and John Donohue, “Shooting Down the ‘More Guns, Less Crime’ Hypothesis, Stanford Law Review.
* 2003 Florenz Plassmann and John Whitley, “Confirming ‘More Guns, Less Crime,” Stanford Law Review.
* 2003 Ayres and Donohue, “The Latest Misfires in Support of the ‘More Guns, Less Crime’ Hypothesis,” Stanford Law Review.

Staceb10

Do you guys really think that not being able to legally own a gun would stop things like this? Legally owning a gun doesn't make people lose their mind and go on a killing spree. And making it illegal isn't going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and psychopaths either.

even flow?

69charger wrote:

News article from January 2006:

Gun bill gets shot down by panel
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.

By Greg Esposito
381-1675

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, would not comment Monday because he was not part of the subcommittee that discussed the bill.

Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

The legislation allowed for exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.

Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.

In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

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Wonder if Larry Hincker has changed his tune after today?

All it would have taken is one student with a Concealed Carry Permit to have stopped this situation as soon as it started.

Sickening.

Why would you need to carry a gun in school unless you live in a violent society? Please explain...........

Heineken Helen

Staceb10 wrote:

Do you guys really think that not being able to legally own a gun would stop things like this? Legally owning a gun doesn't make people lose their mind and go on a killing spree. And making it illegal isn't going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and psychopaths either.

Hey Stace haven't seen you here in a while.

Anyway, it doesn't LEAD to the killing spree but it makes it EASIER to go on a killing spree It's just common sense really. Of course there are nutters everywhere, it's not just the US! But why is it mainly the US where we hear of these nutjobs going on a killing spree? Because they have access to such weapons. If he went into the school with a knife, he may have only injured a few people, killed one or two at worse before people can overpower him... but look what happens with a gun! :(