Virginia Tech : Hindsight 20/20

Heineken Helen

Staceb10 wrote:

I don't have a problem with screenings, waiting periods etc but that isn't going to prevent people from getting guns. Do you think if someone wanted to get a gun they'd have to do it in a store legally? Marijuana is illegal, cocaine is illegal..does that stop the purchase and use of either of them?

I see redrock got to that one before me and pretty much said my opinion on that matter. If you snap, the average person will not know where to go NOW to get a gun to mass kill. It’s the same with drugs… unless you use quite often or know somebody who does you don’t have instant access to a dealer. Many will not sell to those they don’t know anyway… unless it’s on the street. I also don’t have a problem with screenings and waiting periods and all that. I can’t see the necessity of having a gun in the house but to compromise I would still accept your right as an American to have one… I just think it should be harder to get and I also think there should possibly be a psychological assessment before you’re entitled to one.

pushmepullme

Anyone can go crazy, even the most normal person. Guns are bad, they should be banned, thats the bottom line IMO.

redrock

jeffbr wrote:

I get that every one of the incidents on that particular list occurred at school. Do you not get that these are shocking because they are not normal occurrences? For the 2nd straight day this has been THE topic of discussion here, on TV, on the radio, around the water cooler. That isn't the case because it is a normal occurrence. It is the case because it is shocking and unusual. But if you wish to believe that this is a normal, common occurrence here go for it.

Yet again, we need to make a distinction between what is normal or common and what is not. Any crime is NOT normal but a lot of them are common (muggings, etc.). What we are trying to say here is that as horrific and tragic these school shooting may be, when you have 2 a year for the past 10 years, it is no longer an unusual event. It is shocking every time... any violent crime is shocking every time it happens but why so much fuss about another school shooting? Because it is such a tragedy, we do not understand how, yet again, it can happen. Why haven't we learned from all the past shootings? What can be done? That's why it is debated and spoken about all over the place.. not because it is aberrent (because unfortunately, it is not) but because we can't understand why, and it is close to all of us.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

jeffbr wrote:

I get that every one of the incidents on that particular list occurred at school. Do you not get that these are shocking because they are not normal occurrences? For the 2nd straight day this has been THE topic of discussion here, on TV, on the radio, around the water cooler. That isn't the case because it is a normal occurrence. It is the case because it is shocking and unusual. But if you wish to believe that this is a normal, common occurrence here go for it.

Recurring trends lead to normalization. Recurring = normalization.

didn't you freak out on me for posting a vid of troops getting killed in Iraq? something the news does not show, but which has definitely become a normal occurrence in Iraq? Perhaps you are dodging reality?

Normal: (as per dictionary.com)
- Conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
- Serving to establish a standard.

"Serving to establish a standard"

There you go... I take your argument and toss it in the poopie can...

catefrances

jeffbr wrote:

I get that every one of the incidents on that particular list occurred at school. Do you not get that these are shocking because they are not normal occurrences? For the 2nd straight day this has been THE topic of discussion here, on TV, on the radio, around the water cooler. That isn't the case because it is a normal occurrence. It is the case because it is shocking and unusual. But if you wish to believe that this is a normal, common occurrence here go for it.

yes these shootings are shocking. i think what adds to this is the fact that outside home, students spend a big slab of time at school. they are seen as safe havens and very time one of these campus shootings takes place it feels even more of a violation. we send our kids to school to learn. not to die.
in the big scheme of crime yes i agree campus shootings are not normal occurrences. even in the big bad united states. it's a somewhat new phenomenon and it needs to be addressed with something more solid than platitudes and the defence of the bills of rights.

chopitdown

soulsinging wrote:

yeah, and even in that case, why would they not check the room of the other half of the domestic?

didn't they think it was a murder - suicide at first in the dorm? Which explains why they wouldn't have locked down the entire campus, just that dorm.

inmytree

jeffbr wrote:

All of the shooters are lucky that have you to absolve them from any personal responsibility.

where did you get this...?

there is no need to be so dramatic and so black and white...yes, those shooters were responsible for their actions...however, they would not be "shooters" if they did not have a gun...

perhaps it's time to take a look at an industry that produces items of which their main purpose is killing...

Heineken Helen

inmytree wrote:

perhaps it's time to take a look at an industry that produces items of which their main purpose is killing...

But but but... I thought their main purpose is just target shooting? Ya know... recreational fun?

jlew24asu

pushmepullme wrote:

Anyone can go crazy, even the most normal person. Guns are bad, they should be banned, thats the bottom line IMO.

sigh banning guns will only put guns into the hands of bad people.

soulsinging

chopitdown wrote:

didn't they think it was a murder - suicide at first in the dorm? Which explains why they wouldn't have locked down the entire campus, just that dorm.

im not saying lock the entire campus down, im saying you go to the supposed murderer's dorm and check it out. they say one gun was used in the attack. he had to have still had it with him. how do you have 2 people dead in a gun-related murder suicide with no gun?

upina2001

pushmepullme wrote:

Anyone can go crazy, even the most normal person. Guns are bad, they should be banned, thats the bottom line IMO.

Although, think about if one of those farm boys in one of those Va. Tech classrooms had a gun.......do you think he would have used it to take out the shooter? Of course he would have. Problem solved. People have the right to carry firearms. Once you decide to not let people carry guns, you have already made them vulenrable to gun violence.
I dont own a gun, have no need to own one. Sure, Cho was a resident alien, & probably should have never been allowed to buy a gun. But why should the normal Joe not be allowed to protect himself just in case shit like this happens?

(and why cant teachers be allowed to carry guns?) just a thought....

inmytree

upina2001 wrote:

Although, think about if one of those farm boys in one of those Va. Tech classrooms had a gun.......do you think he would have used it to take out the shooter? Of course he would have. Problem solved. People have the right to carry firearms. Once you decide to not let people carry guns, you have already made them vulenrable to gun violence.
I dont own a gun, have no need to own one. Sure, Cho was a resident alien, & probably should have never been allowed to buy a gun. But why should the normal Joe not be allowed to protect himself just in case shit like this happens?

(and why cant teachers be allowed to carry guns?) just a thought....

and if cho did not have a gun the "farmboy" would not need one...

Heineken Helen

upina2001 wrote:

Once you decide to not let people carry guns, you have already made them vulenrable to gun violence.

Lol, seriously... I just LOVE this argument! Keep it going!

So in order to keep people SAFE from guns, you must GIVE them one? Oh dear! If so many of you are NOT living in fear and all the gun owners are good decent people... why would they WANT a gun?

jeffbr

redrock wrote:

Yet again, we need to make a distinction between what is normal or common and what is not. Any crime is NOT normal but a lot of them are common (muggings, etc.). What we are trying to say here is that as horrific and tragic these school shooting may be, when you have 2 a year for the past 10 years, it is no longer an unusual event. It is shocking every time... any violent crime is shocking every time it happens but why so much fuss about another school shooting? Because it is such a tragedy, we do not understand how, yet again, it can happen. Why haven't we learned from all the past shootings? What can be done? That's why it is debated and spoken about all over the place.. not because it is aberrent (because unfortunately, it is not) but because we can't understand why, and it is close to all of us.

I agree that we need to learn from the past shootings.

We're not going to agree on normal. People who see campus shootings as a normal part of American life have a very twisted sense of normalcy. They are an aberration.

So we can enjoy common ground in the hopes that we'll discover the underlying issues causing these loners and losers to kill people, but we apparently won't agree on what is normal in this country.

jeffbr

Byrnzie wrote:

You were right above when you said that one is too many. However, I count 19 on Dunkman's list. This suggests to me that something isn't quite right somewhere.
I'm not saying that America as a whole is to blame. I'm asking what is it about school/college life, or the school/college system in the U.S that may be partly to blame for this stuff. I could be wrong about it. I'm just probing. Some people on here have agreed with me. No-one has refuted my assumptions.
So, i'm still asking questions. Sorry if that offends you!

I stated in another thread perhaps, that college campus is an exaggerated view of real life. In real life there are people who rise to the top and become wildly successful. There are people who flame out and become horrible failures. There are people who make hundreds of friends and build a large social network. There are people who have a few very close friends and are content with that. There are people who are unable to relate to other people and hide inside themselves. In real life and on college campus, most loners and losers don't resort to killing people. And your initial assumptions revolved around his race, as if this were some natural product of racist American society. Yet run down Dunkman's list and tell me which of those campus shootings were a result of racism in the US? Why lead with that presumtion?

gue_barium

Heineken Helen wrote:

I see redrock got to that one before me and pretty much said my opinion on that matter. If you snap, the average person will not know where to go NOW to get a gun to mass kill. It’s the same with drugs… unless you use quite often or know somebody who does you don’t have instant access to a dealer. Many will not sell to those they don’t know anyway… unless it’s on the street. I also don’t have a problem with screenings and waiting periods and all that. I can’t see the necessity of having a gun in the house but to compromise I would still accept your right as an American to have one… I just think it should be harder to get and I also think there should possibly be a psychological assessment before you’re entitled to one.

The truth is, you can get a gun as easily as you can get marijuana, in America.

jeffbr

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Recurring trends lead to normalization. Recurring = normalization.

Normal: (as per dictionary.com)
- Conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
- Serving to establish a standard.

"Serving to establish a standard"

There you go... I take your argument and toss it in the poopie can...

Fine. Hailey's Comet sightings are normal according to that definition then? I would consider it a rare and abnormal event, not common, and certainly not the standard for me, but yet it is a recurring event.

So go ahead and view campus shootings as a perfectly normal, standard aspect of American society. It looks like you'll have company. But there are plenty of people who see these as an anomoly.

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

didn't you freak out on me for posting a vid of troops getting killed in Iraq? something the news does not show, but which has definitely become a normal occurrence in Iraq? Perhaps you are dodging reality?

Not really sure what purpose you had in bringing this back up. I was happy to let it die. You posted a link without any real commentary, of soldiers getting killed. I found your purient interests in the videos sick. Nobody was dodging reality. Nobody was denying soldiers are dying. I would have found a video of Iraqi's getting killed just as sick. I also recognize that children are being sexually assaulted but I don't feel the need to watch videos of the assaults. Is that a reality dodge? Or perhaps you're simply trying to justify your titillations.

soulsinging

gue_barium wrote:

The truth is, you can get a gun as easily as you can get marijuana, in America.

it's much easier to get a gun i think. though more expensive.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

jeffbr wrote:

Fine. Hailey's Comet sightings are normal according to that definition then? I would consider it a rare and abnormal event, not common, and certainly not the standard for me, but yet it is a recurring event.

So go ahead and view campus shootings as a perfectly normal, standard aspect of American society. It looks like you'll have company. But there are plenty of people who see these as an anomoly.




Not really sure what purpose you had in bringing this back up. I was happy to let it die. You posted a link without any real commentary, of soldiers getting killed. I found your purient interests in the videos sick. Nobody was dodging reality. Nobody was denying soldiers are dying. I would have found a video of Iraqi's getting killed just as sick. I also recognize that children are being sexually assaulted but I don't feel the need to watch videos of the assaults. Is that a reality dodge? Or perhaps you're simply trying to justify your titillations.

some are not surprised...some are... some are shocked...some aren't...

blabbity blabbity...bla lol.... do you write the newspapers and tell them to stop showing Iraq going down the shitter?

redrock

jeffbr wrote:

I agree that we need to learn from the past shootings.

We're not going to agree on normal. People who see campus shootings as a normal part of American life have a very twisted sense of normalcy. They are an abheration.

So we can enjoy common ground in the hopes that we'll discover the underlying issues causing these loners and losers to kill people, but we apparently won't agree on what is normal in this country.

I would love to be able to use the expression that these kind of events only occur once in a blue moon.. but even that is once every 2 1/2 years..

I think people hear about another campus shooting before the last one is forgotten.. they then seem to overlap. Coupled with the fact that guns are an american way of life (if we are to believe people on this board), you can understand why others may have a twisted view of what is 'normal' for the US.

There are lot of issues at stake here.. let's just hope another shooting like this is necessary to open one's eyes. Let's hope there will not be another debate like this one on the board. That's all I can say.