Carter and Hamas

Byrnzie

polaris wrote:

Hamas accepts Israel - surprise surprise!

They have agreed to accept Israel, but they haven't agreed to 'recognise Israel', whatever that means.
This aticle explains the whole 'recognition' business very well...

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/rte.html

polaris

Byrnzie wrote:

They have agreed to accept Israel, but they haven't agreed to 'recognise Israel', whatever that means.
This aticle explains the whole 'recognition' business very well...

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/rte.html

yeah ... imo ... it's really bs to keep the masses at bay ... really - without big bad evil groups like hamas, hezbollah or even iran (see "wipe israel off map") -they can't very well continue what they are doing over there ...

all it takes is to use words like terrorists and extremists and most people will buy into the mainstream ...

if you really want peace in the middle east - and you want it done without force or mass casualties - then you have to negotiate ... with BOTH sides ... Hamas is the democratically elected gov't of the palestinian people ...

lazymoon13

Byrnzie wrote:

True. Although I disagree with the '1000 steps part'. I really don't think that many steps are needed to achieve peace over there.
IMO: Israel needs to pull back to the 1967 borders - not something they can do overnight, but that's their problem they created for themselves, so fuck em!
Secondly, the U.S needs to stop feeding billions of dollars into the Israeli military machine every year. It's not doing anyone any good and is only succeeding in making the region more volatile.
Lastly, perhaps a U.N force needs to go in and administer the transition. Afterall, it's the U.N which overseas international law and which currently declares Israel to be in breach of over 60 resolutions - including that of the occupation - so maybe they should send their boys in - the U.S will need to sanction that of course. I expect they would need a peacekeeping force along the border for quite a while - something like what we've seen in Cyprus all these years.

Of course there's more to it than that, but these are the basics.

are you aware of what happen in 1967?

Byrnzie

lazymoon13 wrote:

are you aware of what happen in 1967?

I am aware of what happened in 1967, yes.
I expect your going to say that Israel was attacked and then retaliated, right?
Firstly, this is not what actually happened, and I've posted countless times on this messageboard providing sources which explain what really happened.
Secondly, what does this have to do with anything I mentioned above, and with Israel's need to abide by international law?

mammasan

SpreadtheJAM wrote:

By doing something he is hurting the process. Hamas shouldn't even be recognized. why go against the country's will and defy everyone and speak to a militant organization whose sole purpose is to oppose Israel.

How is he hurting the process by hearing the other sides grievance? Maybe if we took the time to hear what these people had to say instead of just labeling them as evil and blocking them out we could actually accomplish something.

farfromglorified

Hey, I'll take an ex-president wasting his own time over a current president wasting all of our time. Go Jimmy....

siochan

I know its cliche to state that one mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter....... but we have to take this statement into account when dealing with a group such as Hamas. People need to understand the context under which Hamas came about being elected.
After years of Fatah control with the death of Arafat the political machine of Fatah could not keep control of the changing political tide. For many reasons people admired Arafat and did not stand against Fatah and their way of working mainly out of respect for a person who most deemed as a good leader. (the very word leader brings with it the idea of corruption - but that is another topic of conversation)
When it came time to hold democratic elections the people of Palestine voted Hamas into power as their representatives. This very act led to the people being demonized further from certain areas in the world - Fatah ran to those international entities, that it had been in prior contact with - the EU the USA, crying and putting forward reasons as to way they should be supported and not the democratically elected Hamas. We therefore saw the situation change in the West Bank where Fatah held most power - people where told they would recieve absolutely no international aid or assistance as long as Hamas remained in power ....... this type of behavior by Fatah led to them remaining in a somewhat position of power in West Bank ................ meanwhile in Gaza Fatah didn't have any stronghold of power and Hamas remained firmly in power.
Some Internationals where happy to see the two sections of the region separate from themselves almost into two different entities. The old British tactic of divide and conquer very much alive. With two different ruling parties now in exsistance EU and USA and UN to a certain extent have thrown their backing behind Fatah which further alienates the actual democratically elected government and the Palestinian people who voted for them. It sends a mixed message.... some countries being blown to pieces under the auspice of democracy but when democracy is achieved by others it is dismissed.

This type of divisive politics is quite familiar to me as I grew up amongst it. Politics in the North of Ireland has a long legacy of being based on tribal politics but until the mid eighties maybe even until the early 90's the political party of Sinn Fein where seen as terrorists, labelled as terrorists and weren't even able to appear on british television under any circumstances - their voices replaced by actor's voices - it was the most absurd idea.
Now however those men and women labelled as enemies of the state ( as were once the ANC in South Africa) are part of the established working government and the biggest nationalist party in the North of Ireland beating all its counterparts and further more their military organisation has disarmed and stood down recognising the legitimacy of party politics and continuing a struggle through political means not through the power of the ' Ballot box and armalite'.

My hope and reason really for this long drawn out opinion is the hope that maybe in a decade people can sit back and look at this region and say the same thing about Hamas as I have just commented about Sinn Fein. An armed political organisation wishing to become organised and active within the political field should be encouraged and embraced not demonised and alienated.

rebornFixer

Yes, that's right ... Everyone pretend that Hamas actually said they'd recognize Israel's right to exist (they didn't), and also pretend that they are just misunderstood but highly reasonable people who obviously have always wanted to accept Israel all along, but just couldn't take the plunge. Um, right ... I feel compelled to point out that most of you guys (polaris, Brynzie, abook) are actually a lot smarter than your posts in this thread make you look.

That being said, I do appreciate what Carter is trying to do here. Dialogue is a pretty reasonable option, given that even if you're talking to fanatics, the dialogue itself will not make the situation worse ... It MAY help (in this case, it didn't), and it certainty won't hurt.

polaris

reborncareerist wrote:

Yes, that's right ... Everyone pretend that Hamas actually said they'd recognize Israel's right to exist (they didn't), and also pretend that they are just misunderstood but highly reasonable people who obviously have always wanted to accept Israel all along, but just couldn't take the plunge. Um, right ... I feel compelled to point out that most of you guys (polaris, Brynzie, abook) are actually a lot smarter than your posts in this thread make you look.

That being said, I do appreciate what Carter is trying to do here. Dialogue is a pretty reasonable option, given that even if you're talking to fanatics, the dialogue itself will not make the situation worse ... It MAY help (in this case, it didn't), and it certainty won't hurt.

my favourite slag on this forum (you guys are actually a lot smarter than your posts) ... hahahahahaaa ...

i'm calling you an idiot but want to qualify it ... :rolleyes:

GauchoB

Is a DOUCHE

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

Yes, that's right ... Everyone pretend that Hamas actually said they'd recognize Israel's right to exist (they didn't), and also pretend that they are just misunderstood but highly reasonable people who obviously have always wanted to accept Israel all along, but just couldn't take the plunge. Um, right ... I feel compelled to point out that most of you guys (polaris, Brynzie, abook) are actually a lot smarter than your posts in this thread make you look.

That being said, I do appreciate what Carter is trying to do here. Dialogue is a pretty reasonable option, given that even if you're talking to fanatics, the dialogue itself will not make the situation worse ... It MAY help (in this case, it didn't), and it certainty won't hurt.

Did you not read my post above??

http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5392159&postcount=22

Byrnzie

GauchoB wrote:

Is a DOUCHE

You should work for a t.v news station. Your lame soundbites will be perfect for the job.

GauchoB

Byrnzie wrote:

You should work for a t.v news station. Your lame soundbites will be perfect for the job.

Go live out your dream to join Hamas and leave us all alone

GauchoB

lazymoon13 wrote:

are you aware of what happen in 1967?

Talks out his arse most of the time he does

Open

SpreadtheJAM wrote:

By doing something he is hurting the process. Hamas shouldn't even be recognized. why go against the country's will and defy everyone and speak to a militant organization whose sole purpose is to oppose Israel.

So we're promoting democracy in the middle east by ignoring the elected goverment. Brilliant....

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

Did you not read my post above??

http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5392159&postcount=22

Yeah, I probably should not have called you out. Polaris acting all nonplussed at the possibility that Hamas would be reasonable set me off ... As much as I'd like Hamas to change it views and actually acknowledge the possibility of a lasting peace, I would not pretend to be all nonchalant about these things if they were to happen. I'd be surprised as fuck.

polaris

reborncareerist wrote:

Yeah, I probably should not have called you out. Polaris acting all nonplussed at the possibility that Hamas would be reasonable set me off ... As much as I'd like Hamas to change it views and actually acknowledge the possibility of a lasting peace, I would not pretend to be all nonchalant about these things if they were to happen. I'd be surprised as fuck.

of course you'd be ... this is one of the cruxes of the thread ... what do you REALLY know about Hamas?? ... what do ANY of us know about Hamas?? ...

at the end of the day - they are the democratically elected representatives of the palestinian people - to ignore them only perpetuates the differences and leaves us further away from peace ...

rebornFixer

polaris wrote:

of course you'd be ... this is one of the cruxes of the thread ... what do you REALLY know about Hamas?? ... what do ANY of us know about Hamas?? ...

at the end of the day - they are the democratically elected representatives of the palestinian people - to ignore them only perpetuates the differences and leaves us further away from peace ...

One cannot read anyone's mind ... We can judge others based only on their behavior, which in the case of Hamas is utterly reprehensible. That doesn't mean we shouldn't talk to them ... It DOES mean that some skepticism with regards to their true motives is warranted.

Open

reborncareerist wrote:

One cannot read anyone's mind ... We can judge others based only on their behavior, which in the case of Hamas is utterly reprehensible. That doesn't mean we shouldn't talk to them ... It DOES mean that some skepticism with regards to their true motives is warranted.

As is Israel’s; both sides have blood on their hands. If the US would acknowledge that and truly act as a neutral party things would be different.

hailhailkc

The 67 borders have nothing to do with anything. Hamas might give lip service to that idea, but it's nothing more than lip service. They want the destruction of Israel...and I believe they've made that quite clear over the years. Give them the 67 borders and they'll just continue to try and chip away at the existence of Israel.

Hamas can say whatever they want, why would anyone in their right mind actually believe a word of it? I suppose some people enjoy "rooting for the underdog" (the "underdog" being Hamas)...but being the "underdog" doesn't automatically equate into being "right" or "justified" in your actions and motives.